No Ground Beneath Their Feet

#26 by hamidm2

if necessary, we can even give it religious cover as it was/is done in iran ...........

But a muta`ah every ten minutes would be rather cumbersome ... don`t you think? It`s just easier to legalize and regulate it.

FV,

You stirred up an emotion which transcends the usual India/Pakistan rivalry. Where children are concerned, it is true that ALL children are the same. Somehow, their innocence knocks down all pretensions of grown-ups.

#22
Farzana
I didn`t have chance to read the particular book, now that you are mentioning it must be worth of reading. Arright , I`ll give it a try. Thanks

(Urstruly Sahib)
With all due respect, may I suggest NOT to judge these prostitutes with your own perspective. Who are we to decide they are all bad or all good? Who are we to judge and label`em as,``moral or immoral``? Who are we to measure their existence based on our FATWAS with out realizing that , may be they are far better humans than all of us? Who are we to bound their lives according to our needs , no sir, they have all the right to feel , the very existence of their beings just like we have......................Their kids are as lovable and innocent as your`s...............Thank you.

Re: # 19 by zeemax,

Yes, I am proposing what already exists in Holland.

Re: # 25 by Faruk

Faruk and FV,

Let me immediately accept two assertions : (1) Recognizing prostitution as a trade will not take away the stigma associated with it immediately nor will it stop prostitution outside the legal framework to avoid taxes or other regulatory requirements (FV`s point); (2) Prostitution as a legal trade has problems (Faruk`s point) in the sense that (a) it might provide incentives to a woman to choose prostitution over say the job a secretary; and (b) forced prostitution may be passed off as voluntary prostitution.

I would like to add two other problems: (3) People might have genuine (or hypocitical) moral grounds to oppose this recognition; (4) Pakistan and India have too many other problems to deal with.

I would like to deal with these issues in reverse order.

(4) While Pakistan and India may not be ready for this debate I believe that Chowk is.

(3) This is an issue that can be addressed only through a debate. I am sure there won`t be a resolution in terms of unanimity. People may change sides in this debate and finally the two groups will have to agree to disagree. But more light will be shed on the issue and importantly a LANGUAGE to adress the issue MAY develop. While the issue may not be as important as why more women are not converting to Islam, we Chowkies have not hesitated to hold forth on much more trivial issues like caste lineage etc :-)

(2) Yes, legalization of prostitution may generate adverse incentives. But adverse incentives may be of two kinds.
First, what is adverse could well be a moral judgement, as in (3) above. As far as I am concerned morality is a personal issue. I do not want my daughter to become a Hindutva politician - I find it morally repugnant - but if she choses to be one then all that I can do is not vote for her or oppose her politically, write against her ideology etc. However, it would pain me extremely if her children were to be barred from schools or her children were to be ostracized because of their mother`s profession. Or for that matter, if I were to be socially boycotted because of my daughter`s profession. I should be able to proudly proclaim amongst my friends - Yes, my daughter`s political party is obnoxious but she is a smart politician.
Second, adverse incentives may occur when a person is forced to choose when she is not capable of choosing. But this is an issue of legal implementation. Such implementation is easier (not perfect) when prostitution itself is legal. For example, abstracting from concerns related to social stigma, if prostitution were to be legal then it would become easier for a twenty year old prostitute to sue her neighbour who forced her to become a prostitute at the age of thirteen.

(1) Let me start from black maketeering in prostitution after it has become legal. This is again a concern related to the implementation of law. In India, a large proportion of rationed cereals was and is sold in the black market. But, the proportion which is sold legally does help a sub-section of the poor. Over time implementation has improved and that is because it is illegal to sell in the black (normal) market to start with. Had subsidized cereals not been legal the growing sub-section of the poor would not have benifitted.
Finally, let me come to the hardest problem of all - that of social stigma. Social stigma is the outcome of the morality of the dominant (not necessarily majority) social group. The problem with social stigma is as follows - because of social stigma prostitution may not be legalized in a democracy. Since, I am against dictatorial imposition I do not know the solution. At best, I can suggest a social discourse on it. And as I said in (3) above, finally two groups will agree to disagree. I only hope that the language developed in the discourse makes the group, in favour of legalization, a majority. We can learn from Rammohan Roy`s fight against Sati. But insted of a law being forced on the population (as was done by the Brits.) I prefer a democratic resolution.

I would like to know what others think.

fv,

..... well written and very moving ....... i am not going to argue the morality of prostitution and urstruly`s misogynistic reaction, but we have to accept the fact that it will probably be around as long as men and women are around ............. a logical first step would be to legalize and regulate the profession - if necessary, we can even give it religious cover as it was/is done in iran ...........

Re: GT #10, Farzana #22

Your post on legalizing prostitution and its repercussions.

Well all I can say is that it has been illegal in this country for a while and that has not solved any problems. We have health problems, AIDS is spreading among prostitutes and their patrons. Their children as Farzana has pointed out have their own issues.

Legalizing prostitution has its own problems. They are different problems but I am not sure it’s a panacea to the problem.

Regards,

Faruk

re: Urstruly # 7

“feminnists who promote prostitution as `an un-alienable right of a woman`”

I understand your point, but the feminist agenda is quite broad, it’s a diverse group with different agendas. One of them happens to be the one you mentioned. I also understand that the legislation against it only compounds the problem. In my opinion legislation of morality is a slippery slope and I am not aware of any society that has achieved that balance.


My original question was about what you said in the first post

“across the board is the fact that woman is the worst enemy of other woman - whether it is saas bahu, nand bhawaj, boardroom, bedroom, international forum or.....just fill in the blank.”

I think there is truth in the above statement. But there are women helping each other too. There are a lot of women’s groups that have made grate contributions to women’s rights and general well being.

Regards,

Faruk

Dear Farzana:

Thanks for using your talents to throw spotlight on another dark spot in our society. These prostitutes are something our society cannot do without, yet chooses to ignore them as if they do not exist.

The tragedy is that, whatever their role models, most girls will end up in their mother`s profession and most boys will end up as pimps or working for a ``bhai``.

#1 by Urstruly:

[As far as I know it is a global feminist agenda to promote that prostitution is an unalienable right of a woman. They made it very clear in the Beijing 2000 conference and demanded that this point must be included in the United Nation`s charter of human rights; where they demanded that prostitution be considered as any other profession with health care benefits and pension plan etc.]

I will not argue with you about the feminist agenda; suffice to say that since CSWs exist, it cannot be ignored. For that results in further exploitation. Please understand that this is not just about call girls, but situations where force is used. Health care is of primary importance. You are talking about conferences; talk about the ground reality. How many women have access to any health care? Forget a pension plan, they do not know where their next meal will come from. Many of them are minors – what do they know about their rights?

[In my short life span and living in different cultures what I have found to be the common across the board is the fact that woman is the worst enemy of other woman - whether it is saas bahu, nand bhawaj, boardroom, bedroom, international forum or.....just fill in the blank.]

It is a generalisation, although not entirely untrue. Just as men can be men’s enemies, except they get less emotional about it. But, in the organisation where I was, your contention was confirmed – when the footpath sex workers were asked to send their children to the crèche, the ones in the ‘homes’ objected because they were lower down in status.

Also, many deny their profession, but were more than willing to point out other women’s kids as “woh &%$# ka beta…”.
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#10 by GT:

Your reply to urstruly…

[Furthermore, I absolutely fail to understand why a prostitute should not pay income tax, get social security, etc. Why shouldn`t the client pay value added sales tax which, amongst other things, can be used to fund medical insurance for prostitutes and their families. It is a trade for heaven`s sake. We know that such trade exists. Who are we fooling by not recognising this trade? If you want to restrict such trades, then recognize it first as a trade and then tax it. Stop this blame game and holier than thou attitude. It only increases misery.]

I agree in principle, but what happens when it is not considered legal? I absolutely agree that it should be recognised as a trade, but in countries in our part of the world, the stigma associated even with clients is tremendous. Even in ‘rich’ brothels, they would never agree to such an arrangement. Besides, there is the possibility of an ancillary industry of non-taxable prostitution springing up in no time. The cops would ensure that.
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Zeena:

Thanks for sharing. I have been there, though I did not have time to see too many paintings. I do believe that since most such children have to end up living within the environment, they need to be given non-formal education and to rise above their environmental restrictions.

Have you read Dr. Fouzia Saeed’s book, ‘Taboo’? It deals with the Heera Mandi red-light district.

PS: May I request you address me by name, initials or anything, except my designation? I am a writer and responding in that capacity.

Thank you all for your comments…mainly for empathising with the children. It is always the subjects that bring out whatever the tone and sensitivity in the writing. (swarrier: It was a typo, not deliberate…thanks for pointing it out.)

#3 by zeemax:

[Having said that, it has been my observation that although forced prostitution or that due to extreme poverty exists, still much of it is voluntary. Particularly in affluent societies, it is entirely a matter of choice. Even in societies like ours, the profession runs through generations and more often than not it is the mother who sets the career for the daughters when they are old enough to claim the prized `nath uterwai`.]

In the area I have covered, they have been forced into it, sold in the market; at some point they resign themselves to the situation and do come to terms with it.

These women were keen that their children got an education and I have seen them at the municipal school, where the kids are later sent, waiting like any other anxious mother. Their daughters are, however, eyed by the madams and pimps as potential, and since many of these women are deeply in debt they borrow money from the lenders and get ensnared further, they have little choice.

Indeed, I have met women who are doing this voluntarily, but they belong to a different class. Congress House, notorious for its mujras where even some prominent ministers visited, would classify as such a place.

Btw, the rich yuppies have got into mujras – a sort of neo-feudalism.
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#6 by delhiwala:

[We can all talk about it and feel sentimental. Yet there is nothing that can be done about this unless it comes from top echeleons of the society. Maybe Govt should take over these people and rehabiltate them in real sense, not like Nari Niketans and Anath Ashrams.]

I did try and avoid getting too sentimental, but one cannot change one’s nature…I am afraid the government is not of much help. There is a racket where even those women who have been ‘saved’ are sent to ministers. But there are several NGOs that are doing a tremendous job.
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#9 by jang:

[very furtively written, and please write more, this is good, real, experience writing.]

Furtively? I give you the benefit of doubt about its usage…

[what is their relationship with other women? some of the brothels of bombay are run on the basis of villages where the women come from..e.g. there are aunties who run houses with women from villages in north karnataka. do the kids in these ``homes`` feel more secure or rooted?]

The aunty houses you talk about do have a community feeling, but the children still have the same queries. And the women do follow a hierarchy whereby the fight is who will take over as the next head. One of them told me that it was her greatest ambition, it was like she wanted to finally avenge the wrongs meted out to her by the gharwalli.

On one occasion I visited Talasari village where some of these girls were rehabilitated (I went unannounced because I wanted to see for myself how they were…I had to hitch a ride in a truck halfway from Uran); one young boy lived without his mother who was still working in the city. He ended up calling all the other women his mother. It did seem like any other large commune and sharing an afternoon meal with them made one realise that again this did not seem to be the solution. One of them showed me her very rough hands and said she was not interested in working in the fields. They too feel trapped, and some miss the city.

You have posed many questions and I have reams to write…am glad that my note-hoarding has not been such a bad idea and I may work on a series – for the whole atmosphere changes between day and night.

Farzana,
you really made me sad.
it would be far better if nature had created men only and world would have free of all this non sense

#10 by GT

Furthermore, I absolutely fail to understand why a prostitute should not pay income tax, get social security, etc. Why shouldn`t the client pay value added sales tax which, amongst other things, can be used to fund medical insurance for prostitutes and their families. It is a trade for heaven`s sake.

GT, Netherlands does just that. It is a `recognised` profession eligible for mortgage lending and all else. And I don`t see Netherlands degenerating into a moral abyss anytime soon.

Definitely, this business must not be allowed to remain underground like an unattended, festering sore.

On side note:-
“The ultimate tragedy is not the oppression and cruelty by the bad people but the silence over that by the good people.”
Martin Luther K

Dear Chief Editor
Yes, your article showed us a new face of a hidden tragedy which only a sensitive mind and soul can feel with the depth of her sensitivity. Being sensitive in insensitive and indifferent world, your sensitivity couldn`t shake off emotions easily and you came up with this tragic article which has touched my soul deeply.

Your article depicts the dreams and desperation of life in these brothels through a poignant journey that clearly takes me back to my lane of memories when first time I went to see Iqbal Hussain`s ,``Cuckoo`s Nest,`` a restaurant in the haveli inside Heera Mandi, his home. Iqbal Hussain is the leading artist and professor in NCA(National college of arts Lahore) a very prestigious institutions of Pakistan. Iqbal Hussain is the son of a prostitute , born and raised in Heera Mandi who has no official father with out any family name to carry as a badge of identity. He has become a new identity for those fatherless miserable children of Heera Mandi, he is their voice , who is tough and at the sametime extremely artistic.
Cuckoo`s Nest was originally the residential brothel of his mother , which is decorated with Heera mandi`s real paintings and also of his aunts and his mother`s intermixed with Mary, Buddha and hanuman , all paintings are done by Iqbal Hussain, a proud son of a Prostitue called Nawab Jan.
Cuckoo`s Nest has now become the elitest place in the heart of Heera mandi.Heera Mandi has now transformed in to a ghetto with Iqbal Hussain`s Cuckoo`s Nest and his paintings which portray the lives of all those prostitutes from different angles and perspectives with a background music of gunghroos and Tablas in a smokey environment with the best and the tastiest food and Paan in the town.Iqbal`s paintings are sold as much as 5,000 pounds and more.


What touched me the most was a gloomy sadness in Iqbal`s Paintings with all the background of bright scheme of colors. Iqbal tells stories of different prostitues through his paintings that how they were trapped in this vicious circle of tortured reality , almost all of them came out of poverty.Iqbal also shows his feelings openly through his paintings as a caption, that if he weren`t a painter , he would have committed suicide. He helps as many women as possible to escape Heera mandi and not only that he has started a home for other fatherless kids from Heera mandi and a food street for prostitutes who wish to quit their profession with an alternative for living.

There are two categories of prostitutes,a):- Who do prostitution with their full consent with out any external pressure, this is called profession, which must be legalized and their fatherless kids must be given every right to have access to all the pleaures of life as their other counterparts have.

b):- Who do prostitution with out their free will and are forced in to it, their bad luck. They are miserable and they are the ones who need social help the most along with their fatherless children.

Who will help them in this despair and despondancy? May be another Professor Iqbal Hussain....................

When you follow thoughts, you produce great work and when thought follows an agenda you misjudge people in not knowing the truth. Your piece on Banares Blasts was good this one is a masterpiece but attack on Amartya Sen was frivolous.