Becoming Buddha

Re: # 77
[And hopefully, they count!!]

I am of the opinion they do. Cataclysmic or even gradual events are often shaped or catalysed by small individual acts. It is easy to lose sight of that as you said , while looking at the larger compass.
``For the want of a nail , the kingdom was lost``.

Re: # 76: Your response is also natural, however, it is tempting me to make some observations which are not the best thing for the the subject at hand but I am allowing myself this digression because I think we are reaching a sort of limit to our abilities in pursuing the the subject of Buddhism. Unless a new star arrives!!!

Your remark regarding the limitation of the class struggle and its role in historical development is related to a subject dear to my heart. I think Ballukhan is about to jump in!! While it is one of the fatal flaws of the current socialism to overemphasize the class struggle and underestimate the power of individual goodness and initiative, one should not overlook the importance of the class struggle. This is particularly true for reconstruction of historical scenarios and contexts. After all, the individual efforts tend to be washed out in the flood of class struggles. Particularly, when the financial motives play a very important role in the actions involving a populace. Intercultural warfares are particularly governed by class/community struggles.
During Hindu-Sikh explosion in 1983 in Gurgaon my Hindu brother-in-law saved his Sikh friends and their families at the risk to himself. While it is all important to know this in the context of establishing intercommunity ties, evidently in the history of the event it can play only a minor role for all historians except those of the highest caliber. And hopefully, they count!!

Re: # 74
But in absence of of evidence pointing irrefutably in one way or the other , perhaps that is the best way to go. We have no conclusive evidence as to why Buddhism virtually disappeared from India.

The problem with most leftist historians has been the inability to see Indian history on any plane other than the class struggle. That is why Hinduism tended to lose out here being conspicuously class based, notwithstanding the fact that most Indo-European societies were and always have been so.

I find that Vinay Lal hasn`t done this here. Or he`d be speculating about class struggles pushing Buddhism out. Fat cat Buddhist monks deserved to lose.......

Re: # 74, jang:
Just as I finished Vinay Lal`s paper, swarrier posted his entry. By ``balanced,`` I believe he means that Vinay Lal has covered various theories that currently have some scholar or other espousing them not proposed just one ideology. Of course, as you say knowledge of reality is not supposed to be some of it and some of that - that is a patch work of mutually exclusive things.

The assembling of a historical situation does often times tends to be a composite of many - some times even divergent possibilities because life itself is a composite, it is rarely black or white. These days this is found to be true even in Physics areas like quantum computing. As a physical stae is a weighted summation of all possibilities, instead of only one of the possible states!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#73 i think seeking balance is kinda not always right. one hand you have some documentation, evidence, on the other speculation based on ideology. that IMO is not scholarship.

Re: # 72
I`ve just finished reading the document that pmishra2 gave a link to. The one by Vinay Lal. It is very interesting and presents a balanced perspective on things. There are additional references quoted there that may be interesting for further perusal.

I shall take the liberty of posting two of them here though they are present in the document.

D. C. Ahir, Buddhism Declined in India: How and Why? (Delhi: B. R. Publishing, 2005).

Padmanabh S. Jaini, “The Disappearance of Buddhism and the Survival of Jainism: A Study in Contrast”, in Studies in History of Buddhism, ed. A. K. Narain (Delhi: B. R. Publishing Co., 1980), pp. 181-91.

I think this thread must have broken a record at Chowk. I do not think I have seen such a cooperative team in any other thread. Thanks, pmishra2, swarrier and jang.

The world will be a much better place to live in if leaders in the society are given a course in Buddhism. I must say that all the leaders from all walks of life must read buddhism and try to become a buddha in spirit and action. In order to practice non-violence, a person needs huge amount of courage and conviction. I wish people learn buddhism and make it as their way of life.

warrier and mishraji have posted some nice references..i would add

Xuanzang: A Buddhist Pilgrim on the Silk Road by sally Hovey Wriggins is a very readable book. it also has some nice plates of budhists art and maps from various times.

From Publishers Weekly (Amazon website)
A remarkable and unprecedented pilgrimage to India in A.D. 639-645 by the Chinese Buddhist monk Xuanzang is one of the great milestones in the history of China`s long love affair with Buddhism. Xuanzang returned from that trip laden with Buddhist scriptures, artifacts and a treasure trove of spiritual learning for his homeland, thus transforming Buddhism`s position in China and energizing its reception by the ruling classes. Wriggins has, in this small book, provided a practical introduction to Xuanzang and a useful text accompanied by maps and photographs. Despite the fact that Wriggins`s prose is often dull (the stuff of guidebooks rather than of holy travel), Xuanzang`s travels prove interesting enough to make even these flaws seem minor; and Wriggins`s book will provide a significant introduction to an extraordinary traveler`s extraordinary contribution to Buddhist history.

Copyright 1996 Cahners Business Information, Inc.

Re: #68
The book on Hsuan Tsang was not by an Indian author . I was mistaken. It is by Richard Bernstein. The title is

Ultimate Journey : Retracing the Path of an Ancient Buddhist Monk Who Crossed Asia in Search of Enlightenment (Vintage Departures) (Paperback)

Re: # 66
James Legge , A Record of Buddhistic Kingdoms, by Fa-Hien (Project Gutenberg)
http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/gutbook/lookup?num=2124

There is a recent book written by an Indian scholar on Hsien Tsang or (Hsuan Tsang) visit to India almost two centuries later. I`ll try to find out that one and post it.

References to Buddhism`s decline in India:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xuanzang

XuangZang`s journey to India in 650AD (sorry, no evil brahmins killing buddhists :-)

Vinay Lal (left-wing historian) on the topic:
http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/southasia/Religions/paths/BuddhismDisappear.doc

Re: # 65, jang:
Your reference to Chinese Travellers regarding the issue of amity betwen Hindus and Buddhists is so relevant and crucial for our speculations. Can you tell us what is the source of your information for Harsh`s time. You have drwn attention to an extremely important aspect of our thought stream. Many, many thanks. Please continue.

#64 there is plenty of evidence from writings of chinese travellers during king harshas time (well after buddha) that there was no religious conflict and the king would encourage (support) both hindu and buddhist scholars. i dont know of any evidence which shows that buddhism was pushed out violently. the commie historians have always speculated however..and also love to show conflict between jaina kings of karnataka and hidu kings etc to make hindu-muslim religious clash to be at an equal scale as that of other religions (e.g. buddhism, jainism, shaivism etc).

a lot of indian history is not recorded as court records..its in writings of poets, temples and oral traditions. while undoubtedly there have been conflicts amongs kings of all kinds of religious persuations, the folk-memory and writings of medieval poets do not seem to refer to these, various hindu-jain temples seem to co-exist just fine.

the best historians can perhaps say is its not clear why buddhism vanished.

#61 nasah

Many of the dialogs of the buddha took place in the context of a ``challenge``: the local priests and sadhus would come to the buddha and challenge him to ``prove`` himself. The somehwat lofty language reflects that type of situation. This is itself is a unique indian phenomenon throughout the ages and one that all of us should be proud of. Can we think of a similar situation in other traditions?

As inquirer points out, the buddha is saying he is a realized human, thats all. No doubt the brahmin wanted to know if he was a god or a veda scholar or a great ascetic or whatever. The buddha says, no, I am just a human and even a human can become more than their origins.

My favorite story of buddhist ``tark-vitark`` is one in which the buddha was asked:-

``What are you, are you a deva or a sanyasi or brahma himself?`` and the buddha replied ``I am none of these. But I am awake!``.

Regarding your beliefs that [quote] that brahmins chased buddhists from india[quote], hmm, well, this smells again of a kind of quick and superficial stereotype.

The reality is that the buddha challenged brahmanism and rejected the vedas, yet lived a full and healthy life and his closest followers were caste hindus of all kinds. Nagarjuna the greatest of all buddhist thinkers was born a caste hindu (brahmin?). Chinese buddhists visitors noted that ``deva`` temples and buddhist viharas were built close together, and not a single one reports violence or aggresiveness between the two communities. By and large, kings treated them as parallel traditions with some favoring one or the other. It was not unknown for some members of the royal family to follow the buddha while others followed ``brahminical`` or other traditions.

So again, I encourage you to look at facts before offering quick opinions.

#57 Inquirer

I am just another middle-aged IT-wallah with an interest in indian culture. You can reach me at ``alberuni2006 at yahoo dot com``.

Re: # 61, nasah:
Well nasah the statement given above is in quotes, i.e., it is directly from my #24 reference:
`` Page 10 of:
The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived: The Supreme Buddha
By Venerable Weragoda Sarda Maha Thero
Published by Singapore Buddhist Meditation Centre on May 10, 1998.``
where it is provided in quotes.
I see what you mean but almost all religious books have the tendency to assume high profile. The law of modesty is rarely observed in these references. So that way it is not too out of ordinary. As I see the thrust to note there is that Buddha acknowledged he was just a human being, not divine. That alone is a mark of modesty! Furthermore, all exceptionally talented people are aware of their heights, so Buddha was honest!!

As for the wars between Hindus, Buddhists and Islamics, this is an issue which none of the three should be proud and of them Buddhists are probably the least blameworthy. To some extent the lack of a fighting cadre in Buddhism is responsible for the disappearance of Buddhists from India.

Followers of all religions are generally unlike the ideals of those religions. I wonder if you have seen the video on Last Viceroy - Lord Mountbatten where the total surprise of C. F. Andrews is shown when Gandhi ji quoted Christ about the ``turning of the other cheek!!``