I Could Invent a Religion…

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A great opportunity for Revathy didi to write her next article on the importance of faith, and in that context, irrelevance of reason.

``The comfort of faith is tremendous.``

That is a good summary of the faith of Hindu liberals. And a good summry of this article.

Re: # 100

And what to do if the religion itself is anti-human and insulting to human sensitivities? Buleh Shah, a Punjabi sage-poet says:

Masjid dhaa de, Mandir dhaa de, dhaa de jo kujh dheyindaa
Ik bande da dil nah dhaavein rab dillan wich rehnda

(You may destroy every Mosque and Mandir but do not humble a human being`s heart as god lives in the hearts of human beings)

Re: # 98
[#86 LOL kal, you got a sweet churri.]
Always the sharpest.

From Kaal`s viewpoint then we shouldn`t have any discussions on religion since we may express,
`` .... hurtful sentiments unmindfull of the pain they cause to so many people`s sacred sensitivities.``

So pardon me Kaal, but have you got your tongue firmly cloven to your cheek or do you really mean this?
No questioning any religion?

Re: #80 by Farzana Varsey

[[The last thing I want to see is killjoys such as evangelical Christians and jihadi Muslims take over India. I have an escape valve to the US but what about the rest of the folks here?]

You worry too much. They are doing just fine. The only reason they might want to escape is because they want to be where the real jihadi/evangelical action is -- the USA. There is no threat of Christians or Jihadis taking over India because in time they do get torched to death or killed by `easy-going` people, who claim to be Hindus when they are only a bunch of nutcases. The `killjoys` may be spoiling your CNN moment of virtual reality, but learn to live with it. ]

As I have mentioned before - I have a colleage who is an Indosesian Christian. Very peaceful, decent and quiet type of character. Once he was telling me that he is going to retire in Bali in Indonesia. I asked him why Bali - he came from a different island. After hesitating for a while, he said in his quiet manner - ``because we`ll just feel more relaxed there``. After some more questioning he revealed that it was because Bali was majority Hindu - he would feel ``safer`` in his own country in Bali!

Kashmiri political parties are currently discussing possible ``self-rule`` based on current Kashmir religious demographics, which is majority Muslim. In Assam, already they are 30% of the population and firmly in control the political process in that state. And illegal Bangladeshis (yes, those who felt they needed their own country under Allah) are flooding in every day. The UPA govt is too chicken to stop it. The same fate as Kashmir awaits Assam, Tripura, and West Bengal. I have talked to many Indian Muslims. The HUGE MAJORITY of them - educated, well-spoken etc. COMPLETELY support Kashmir self-rule based on their religious majority. Indian Muslims in India don`t say it out loud, but their good wishes are with the Hurriyat.

The Europeans have realized the menace. Already, immigration reforms are sweeping Europe - France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany. Privately the politicians in Europe admit that the time might be past to sterm the rot. Turkey is never going to be included in the EU.

America is going to do the same eventually. But it`ll probably happen after another terrorist activity, and after a decrease in their dependence on Saudi oil.

Only India, after being butchered by Islamic invaders for millenia, is still chewing the cud like the proverbial holy cow. The FVs and the Salim Chauhans of the world serve the useful purpose of lulling the enemy into a feeling of false security, following the time-honored Islamic principle of taqqiyah - lying for the Ummah. If we Hindus wait too long, we will meet the same fate as the Hindus who chose to stay back in Pakistan or Bangladesh.

And as I have said many times before, the ONLY consolation in all of this is that liberal ``intellectuals`` like this Revathy Gopal will be the first to be done away with in the coming Islamic regime in India - check out their plight in every Muslim majority country in the world. I`ll be enjoying their plight from the US. Of course, they would have earned every bit of what they get.

#86 LOL kal, you got a sweet churri.

#91 by FarzanaVersey

[Of course most Hindus are nice people – and they carry knives under their armpits only when the barber gives them a shave, which is also the time they have to take Ram’s name. ]

This is much like the ebola virus saying that humans are nice people for the most part.

[#95 by masanamuthu
quoting the `writer`:
He loved the Urdu language and long after we were grown, practiced its prescribed courtesies when guests entered the house.]

---

Why surprised?
She never went to Paat Shaala or Madressa, she went to convent hence her education level.

She belongs to the wretched Ba Ba Blacksheep class...Kalloo outside, beige inside (like eggplants).

They need to be sheared often. They cannot be Halaaled because they are Haraam even in the hindu religion.

Lakhh Laa`nUT(Fie) on goray kay ghulaams/Laundees or ChiTTaaDaases./Dasees.

He loved the Urdu language and long after we were grown, practiced its prescribed courtesies when guests entered the house. ..

Urdu`s prescribed courtesies???.. I`m confused. Urdu is a language, right??.. It can have rules about grammar, but courtesies...

it is hilarious... the author and her editor write about opressive ``hindu`` customs about women-on-the-rag, but get real offended when harimau talks about women in rags (tents)..LOL.

i thoroughly enjoyed the exchange, very telling.

I`ve been trying to picture myself barefoot, pregnant, cooking in a hot kitchen dressed in a burqa, and burst out laughing at the ludicrousness of it all. I know women who have opted for the burqa perfectly attuned to their environment and culture, going out to study and work, at peace with themselves. They have not been coerced into it. You really must rid yourself of these stereotypes, dear Harimau. For you the comfort of being Tam Brahm and raising it at every juncture is the same as someone in a burqa feeling protected and safe and complete.
Thank you Farzana, for standing up for my right to say what I please. Thank goodness, this country still offers that great privilege. I am in no way stomping on any one else`s right to believe in whoever or whatever they will. Just don`t get taken in by the hollow claptrap offered by gurus and godmen and yes, godwomen too. Being rational and still a believer is quite possible. The comfort of faith is tremendous.

#86 by Kaalchakra

[Only they have the confident, presumptuous gall to express such hurtful sentiments, unmindful of the pain they cause to so many people`s sacred sensitivities. ]

This is what the Nazi Party followers said about their critics.


And btw, Kaalchakra, with this post #86 you have now been forgiven by that other Chowk luminary, stellar humanitarian and a ``ground realities`` intellectual - HP.

You would put Laloo, Paswan, Arjun Singh etc. to shame.

#83 by hamidm2:

Good luck with your desi bar. Would you like to name it ‘Houri Heaven’? Or ‘Ghilman’s Den’?

Of course most Hindus are nice people – and they carry knives under their armpits only when the barber gives them a shave, which is also the time they have to take Ram’s name.

Don’t know much about Pakistanis in the West, but in India we are used to everyone preparing for the next life. Reincarnation is an established philosophical ideology specially created for lazy people to have an option to delay the onset of puberty, among other things.
- - -
#85, #90 by Harimau:

Please don’t do this. I want a proper fight. Anyway, how can anyone use this chuttar-puttar with good wine?

[It was front-page article…So I am pretty sure that the person in question was eating the Holy Cow.]

And does that validate anything?

[Doctor Artist Leader Chief Minister the Fund of Compassion does not need me to put him in any kind of Islamic garb. He attends Iftar parties with a skullcap on his head and breaks bread with the ``secular`` Muslims and calls Hindus thieves.

By the way, he allocated three seats to some Muslim party during the elections on condition they run under the DMK symbol and then yanked one seat away from them to give it to his own party. That is the extent of his solidarity with Muslims.]

So, what is different about it? This is the reality of our politics and has nothing to do with his personal atheism. Just as many people pretend to be upholders of religion but negate it in every which way.
- - -
Revathy:

I am pretty much ideologically with this article, although all my dreams of starting an ashram spa have taken a beating (the drop in sensex has contributed too).

However, when you say, “The most unlikely people go to ashrams. Only recently a friend, who I’ve always regarded as the epitome of common-sense and practicality, confessed rather shamefacedly that she found going to a well-known ashram in South India, of great comfort”, I disagree.

I do not think common sense and practicality are the preserves of non-believers.

I have always said my motto is,
“Khudee ko kar buland itna
ke har taqdeer se pehle
Khudaa bandey se khud poochhe
bataa teri raza kya hai…”

In principle, it is great. Problem is: what if I don’t know what I want? In such situations, you just leave yourself to the elements. There are times there has been a crisis. I have been unable to decide on simple things in life like take-away pizzas or paneer tikka. And god is waiting for an answer. I have to meekly submit to superior decision-makers. It is another matter that I end up with pan pizza with cottage cheese topping.

It was G. K. Chesterton who said, “If there was no god, there would be no atheists.”

I kind of agree with kaalchakra (#86) to an extent. I think it is very comforting for many people to believe that there is a personal god (preferably monogrammed) floating in the clouds, watching over us (better than some American satellite trying to zero in on hair follicles).

Even if god is fiction, like in any good story, the character can come alive and become a part of one’s psyche. If we can happily connect with the ‘Outsider’, ‘Anna Karenina’, ‘Lolita’, ‘Madame Bovary’, ‘The Tramp’, then some people find god in God.

I have always maintained that Nature is god. Just as some of us need hope, dreams, a good Chardonnay, a soft pillow, a Swarovski vase, others need a god, sometimes several…as a sort of exigency plan.

I do not think this article has mocked any particular belief, but in some early posts Zeena had talked about letting others live with their beliefs. I agree with that. I think what some of us non-practising people do is become holier-than-thou, quite in the literal sense. We turn proselytisers.

And trust me, agnostics and atheists are not above superstitions. You think I am oblivious when a black cat crosses my path? Nah. I am worried sick for the feline…

Ref FarzanaVersey #80

[And before I forget, what will you do with your state`s new chief minister now? He is an atheist...put him inside a burqa?]

Doctor Artist Leader Chief Minister the Fund of Compassion does not need me to put him in any kind of Islamic garb. He attends Iftar parties with a skullcap on his head and breaks bread with the ``secular`` Muslims and calls Hindus thieves.

By the way, he allocated three seats to some Muslim party during the elections on condition they run under the DMK symbol and then yanked one seat away from them to give it to his own party. That is the extent of his solidarity with Muslims.

Re: # 86
Kaal
I don`t think Revathy meant to insult any religion with that statement. It`s her belief. It`s just as real as somebody`s god. Just as real as my struggle to want to believe but reason telling me it is utter hogwash.
Besides any great religion that has wishes and dictates of non-substantive apparitions has far outlived it`s usefulness. We have enough confusion in ourselves without having to draw on religion to add to it.
There is no apparition, no dictates, no heaven, no hell. Why should this belief insult anybody when it is personal?

#86
Excuse me sir, what are you going on about?
If there is no personal God floating up in the clouds, overseeeing every nanosecond of everybody`s existence, then what are people doing abiding by and living mortally afraid of the supposed wishes and dictates of nonsubstantive apparitions?

Seems to me that`s what the author would like to know too.

Re: # 86

kaal,

......... i hate to tell you this, but billons of very stupid people are abiding by and living mortally afraid of the supposed wishes and dictates of nonsubstantive apparitions and leading entire lives built around utter fiction, complete untruths.............

.... sorry to burst your bubble .........

swarrier

It is unconscionable how Hindu `liberals` blithely mock other people`s religions. If there is no personal God floating up in the clouds, overseeeing every nanosecond of everybody`s existence, then what are people doing abiding by and living mortally afraid of the supposed wishes and dictates of nonsubstantive apparitions? Innocent, ordinary people are being accused, in this thoughtless article, of leading entire lives built around utter fiction, complete untruths. That`s a far greater and more consequential an error than some people visiting Ashrams.

Only Hindu fascists acting as Indian liberals can be so contemptuous of other peoples, of entire faiths. Only they have the confident, presumptuous gall to express such hurtful sentiments, unmindful of the pain they cause to so many people`s sacred sensitivities.

Ref FarzanaVersey #80

[...How ironical that you need a Pakistani to legitimise you...the problem is that hamidm would not believe it if you told him that many Hindus eat papad and channa as accompaniment with their Merlot.]

I pesonally prefer salted cashews and toasted almonds. When you start off with Merlot and single malts, your tastes tend to be a bit up-scale ;)

[And that TamBrahm chomping a Big Mac -- ooh, you think it is an achievement? Where is your pride that Narendra Modi has been teaching you about, that `asmita` stuff? And anyway, did you get close enough to see that the TamBrahm in the pic had taken out the cutlet and chomped on two round bread pieces squashing tomatoes, onions, lettuce and ketchup...he had asked them to skip the mayo (eggless, no?).]

It was front-page article on the San Jose Mercury News about how moving to the US has affected the food habits of the code coolies. So I am pretty sure that the person in question was eating the Holy Cow.

[The `killjoys` may be spoiling your CNN moment of virtual reality, but learn to live with it.]

I don`t get CNN on cable in Chennai. Plenty of SCV, K-TV, Sun-TV, Sun Network News, their clones in Telugu, Kannada and Malayalam (all the family property of Dayanidhi Maran), etc. In addition, I get Jesus Christ Himself on Angel-TV. Seriously, have you seen the pictures of Jesus with long hair parted at the center, a beard, etc.? There is a look-alike except that this version seems to have actually married Mary Magdalene because he is a bit too chubby and the beard is a bit too neatly trimmed. In addition, there is Rajan Sinnadurai with his blonde wife Beckye speaking in English (Beckye plays the dutiful bimbo and doesn`t open her mouth, Rajan does the preaching) with a translator with a vague resemblance to a duck-billed dinosaur translating into Tamil. This is the reality I live with. That, ``Medina the Peaceful Garden`` blaring from a mosque at 5:30am, and a copy of the Bible in Tamil with the title ``Parisuddha Veda Agamam``. The speech patterns have changed what with all the Masanamuthus and Karuppayees taking up jobs as newsreaders and VJs. My only contact with Brahminical Tamil now is the Tamil translation of Bible, I kid you not!

[And before I forget, what will you do with your state`s new chief minister now? He is an atheist...put him inside a burqa?]

Soysauce might believe it but you really don`t, do you? The first thing Doctor Artist Leader Chief Minister the Fund of Compassion did was to go to his native town of Tiruvarur. His entire family walked all the way from Tiruvarur to Tirukkuvalai, his birthplace to worship at the Angala Parameswari Temple, a distance of some 15 kilometers. This included his wife (one of several, maybe more than one). his son Stalin and his wife, his grand-nephew Fund of Compassion, Jr, aka Dayanidhi Maran, etc. Most photographers were prevented from taking pictures of the whole thing though ``Dinamalar`` had a couple of photos.

By the way, right outside Karunanidhi`s house in Gopalapuram, Chennai there is a Krishna temple right smack in the middle of the street. Do you think Mr. Public Atheist would have it demolished to ease traffic? He hasn`t done it in 40 years. Narendra Modi the Hindu bigot would not have a second thought about demolishing it ;)

Ref Asli-Masanamuthu #81

[What would you know about the brahmins? You`re a warrior after all...]

Your knowledge of course comes from that fount of wisdom called ``Periyar`s Thoughts``.

fv jee,

``the problem is that hamidm would not believe it if you told him that many Hindus eat papad and channa as accompaniment with their Merlot``

...... actually i wouldn`t mind having papad an channa with my merlot isnsted of those insipid pretzels and peanuts ......... i have a dream, yes sir, me too ........ i have a dream that one day i will open up a desi bar with valayati daroo and top-notch desi bar food: paratha rolls, tandoori chicken strips, tikka boti ........... no salan, naan, roti, biryani, korma or any of that south indian stuff .......... and no vegetables

...... and really, i know that most of the indians i meet are probably not representative of the entire population of horrible hindoos that my father warned me about - the wicked, conniving, scheming bania who carrys a sharp knife in his armpit and ram`s name on his lips ......... but, i still find the hindoos that i have run across in america to be more likable fellows than the pakis ........ i used to know some good pakis, but they all found god as soon as they turned forty and gave up on this life ........... now they spend all their time preparing for the next life

Re: # 81
Relations my dear fellow, relations. Tonnes of `em. Bit of Namboodiri blood in me too. Not completely martial you know. Sort of a mongrel that`s me. -)

#70
What would you know about the brahmins? You`re a warrior after all...
:)

#73 by harimau

[Ref hamidm2 #63

``...... i think my hindoo friends are on the right path as described in post #31 ........ why would you want to do anything different ?........ do you want to become like the evangelical christians and the jihadi muslims who are bent on destroying mankind in their quest to ``revive`` their religion ? ..............``

Precisely my point in my post #30. Most Hindus are just easy-going people and even brahmins are not averse to sharing a nice bottle of Merlot with their friends. Heck, an article on the food habits of code coolies in San Jose had a photo of a TamBrahm chomping on a Big Mac!]
- - -
How ironical that you need a Pakistani to legitimise you...the problem is that hamidm would not believe it if you told him that many Hindus eat papad and channa as accompaniment with their Merlot. And that TamBrahm chomping a Big Mac -- ooh, you think it is an achievement? Where is your pride that Narendra Modi has been teaching you about, that `asmita` stuff? And anyway, did you get close enough to see that the TamBrahm in the pic had taken out the cutlet and chomped on two round bread pieces squashing tomatoes, onions, lettuce and ketchup...he had asked them to skip the mayo (eggless, no?).

Most Hindus, like most Muslims, Christians, scientologists, who treat their religion as the only truth (and all blind believers do) are hardly easy-going people. The fact that you have to keep posting, justifying, counteracting what ought to be your personal belief is ample evidence.

[The last thing I want to see is killjoys such as evangelical Christians and jihadi Muslims take over India. I have an escape valve to the US but what about the rest of the folks here?]

You worry too much. They are doing just fine. The only reason they might want to escape is because they want to be where the real jihadi/evangelical action is -- the USA. There is no threat of Christians or Jihadis taking over India because in time they do get torched to death or killed by `easy-going` people, who claim to be Hindus when they are only a bunch of nutcases. The `killjoys` may be spoiling your CNN moment of virtual reality, but learn to live with it.

[That is why people like Revathy Gopal ought to be put inside a burqa where these subversive ideas she is trying to float on Chowk would get squashed instantly and she will be told her place is barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.]

Discussing one`s agnosticism/atheism/conflicts with the self are hardly subversive. First, you were obsessed with the geography of S. Indian habitats in Mumbai. You assumed that everyone lives in a ghetto ..Southies in Matunga/Sion/Chembur (just as you think Muslims live in Bhendi Bazaar) -- the idea that one of your own was not brought up in a restricted environment in terms of physical location or mental space just did not strike you as plausible. Just FYI, even `mulgapudi` is available in some swanky Napean Sea stores.

And before I forget, what will you do with your state`s new chief minister now? He is an atheist...put him inside a burqa? And just for the record, being barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen is a Western thought. So, now you believe that the Arabs started the whole Western civilisation as we know it today.

Women in India -- especially S. India -- do enter kitchens barefoot. It is a technical problem that they cannot always be pregnant while doing so. I should hope you don`t have an issue with that.

#78 k

What is this ``blasphemy`` thing? You should be aware this is a strictly abrahamic thing.

Yes, I realize that our wahhabi hindus have picked this nonsense up and copied it. But it has ZERO standing in ANY indic tradition.

#76 interesting point..in some societies rejecting the religion of the land would be blasphemous and inventing a new one would make it to passport forms.

Re: # 74

Have you got religion Kaal? Seen the light?

How blasphemous..!!!!!!!!!!

You irreverent child..!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyways..good write.

But by defying religion you land yourself nowhere it seems. No ethical standards relevant today would be relevant tomorrow. same with the past.

But a benchmark is needed for the ethical lines drawn over and again which seems to fade away with time into insignificance and infringed upon so frequently.

harimau#73:
[digression]

If you are in Chennai these days, could you send me an email at nandtandan@yahoo.com. Thanks.

what seemed overwhelmingly clear was that there was no such thing as a personal God; someone who oversaw every second of one’s existence, who knew every breath you drew, and who was the keeper of your destiny.

---

Standard Hindu liberal claptrap, directly insulting great religions of the world.

Ref hamidm2 #63

[...... i think my hindoo friends are on the right path as described in post #31 ........ why would you want to do anything different ?........ do you want to become like the evangelical christians and the jihadi muslims who are bent on destroying mankind in their quest to ``revive`` their religion ? ..............]

Precisely my point in my post #30. Most Hindus are just easy-going people and even brahmins are not averse to sharing a nice bottle of Merlot with their friends. Heck, an article on the food habits of code coolies in San Jose had a photo of a TamBrahm chomping on a Big Mac!

The last thing I want to see is killjoys such as evangelical Christians and jihadi Muslims take over India. I have an escape valve to the US but what about the rest of the folks here?

That is why people like Revathy Gopal ought to be put inside a burqa where these subversive ideas she is trying to float on Chowk would get squashed instantly and she will be told her place is barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.

Ref adityapant #57

[What has changed today with SANSKAAR and other channels is that religion has become in your face.]

For the Sanskar and Aastha channels I get in Chennai, I have God-10, Blessings-TV, and Angel-TV blaring Christianity. These are full-time missionary channels offering ``assistance with prayer``. In addition, churches buy 30- and 60-minute blocks of time on other impoverished channels such as Raj-TV, Vijay-TV, etc., to blare out more Christian propaganda. And the Isalamists are not far behind; during Ramzan you get programs on the Magnificence of the Fast and weekly Sunday broadcasts throughout the year. I think Aastha and Sanskar are a response to the Christianity crapola. And Sanskar mostly seems to feature Digamber Jain sadhus so it is not -in-your-face-Hinduism as you claim it to be.

[People will have a Puja in a colony with loudspeakers spoiling everyones Sunday.]

Just this morning, at 5:15 am, there was this Christian church putting out some crapola music on its speakers. I pass by a dozen mopsques in the morning blaring out the call to prayer at 5 am. I pass by innumerable temples big and small and not a peep from them. Come to Chennai and I will prove it to you. And no, you don`t have to ride a bicycle with me, I will take you around in a car.

Revathy

Its beautiful like the poetry of the greatest Urdu Poet Ghalib. I don`t know why I tend to fall in love with the writer `out-of-sight`. I would be the first votary of the religion if she invents one. It would perhaps be the first religion to be invented by a female who are too realistic to take up such idealistic jobs. BTW, why should they invent a religion when they can `invent` prophets.

Re: # 69
soysauce

[On menses being a taboo, among south indian brahmins, this is still the case. No cooking or household chores or even mixing with the rest of the household during period. True even for working women.]

This varies from place to place. It may still hold true in some joint families. It doesn`t exist everywhere. `` The times they are a changin....``

Jang, various
Absolutely delightful comments. Christian good deeds by and large is a tradition inherited from the first missionaries to china who found it a bit easier to approach the locals as a doctor or a teacher than as a strict missionary, notwithstanding the parable of the good samaritans. For hindus, religion is strictly a type of a transaction. Good deeds may bring one a good life, hence no need for a organized charity - individual effort is sufficient.

On menses being a taboo, among south indian brahmins, this is still the case. No cooking or household chores or even mixing with the rest of the household during period. True even for working women.

Re: # 65
[ Again, taking the best from all religions, what`s wrong with that? ]

Because every religion would have started the same way with inspiration from other religions that they knew about. In course of time every religion will descend into some dogma, some rituals, none of which will have meaning to the vast majority, and a few will pontificate on the esoteric aspects of these.

There is no such thing as perfect religion and will probably never be. Instead of starting something new, it would be better if every religion attempted to learn from each other. We don`t need another system of beliefs. All another synthesis will lead to is another bit of confusion.

By the way what does violence have to do with patriarchy? I would have blamed it on the need to possess.

#63 hamidm2

Personally, I am delighted that hindus have a mongrel-type religion, mixture of faith-+local cults+philosophy+way-of-life. I have no objection to it. I am only responding to revathy`s (and my) boredom with puja, mindless rituals, etc. I am suggesting that a neo-hindu focus on compassion, ethics, self-control and service is also OK.

Doesn`t mean that this is some kind of great suggestion....Just that its better to change things than just whine about them...

trust me, it is not worth the effort and, in the end, it is alwys better to eat a cow than worship it and there is nothing to be gained by senseless chanting, incense burning and taking a dip in the raw sewage of the ganges ........


LOL.. Well said..

Jang, I do like your very perceptive comments. Yes, Hinduism allows for a great deal of flexibility, and in theory you can go from being idolatrous to being a complete atheist, the whole spectrum. But I still feel that by ``playing`` so much, celebrating festivals and feast days, and the fast days one slips into believing that one has fulfilled the tenets of living a `good` life. Sorry for all the quote marks! Everything has to come into living, celebrations and charity and compassion and cleansing oneself of prejudice and bigotry. Again, taking the best from all religions, what`s wrong with that?
The Sermon on the Mount, and Mohommed`s teachings of equality and justice and Jain teachings of reverence for all life... one can see good in all great philosophies.

#62 i think hamid has raised a point without directly raising it..why should it be a hindu organization doing community bulding? its ok if its natural and organic. what should a hindu do ``good to others``? this is different from say a temple takes it upon itself to run a soup-kitchen. but role of religion does not have to be community bulding. i kinda like hinduism the way it is, a little bit of diwali, a little bit of rituals, a lot of flexibility on the menu, no big claim to providing THE answer, you go figure it our for yourself. i think asking ``hindus`` to community building or service because they are hindu is not part of the DNA. you are free to do it if it apeals to you ..hinduism as such makes no claim to it, its overreaching its domain. if you figure it out, more power to you.

Re: # 62

Re: # 62

pmishra,

you ask: ``which direction SHOULD hindu traditions focus on? ``

...... i think my hindoo friends are on the right path as described in post #31 ........ why would you want to do anything different ?........ do you want to become like the evangelical christians and the jihadi muslims who are bent on destroying mankind in their quest to ``revive`` their religion ? .............. trust me, it is not worth the effort and, in the end, it is alwys better to eat a cow than worship it and there is nothing to be gained by senseless chanting, incense burning and taking a dip in the raw sewage of the ganges ........

#91 jang

The question as hindus that we should ask ourselves is: which direction SHOULD hindu traditions focus on?

Hinduism is a khichdi of many different components, at different times, different components are important. We should not think that these things are fixed (HINT: there is no final prophet/pope stuff here) but in our hands to change.

You are absolutely right about Sikhs and Christians. They have had strong tradition of seva. But the nice thing is that many hindu congregations have adopted similar traditions. If you look at RK Mission, Ma Amrita, ISKCON, all have copied the sikh langar and seva tradition. I think this is an excellent thing.

My point to Revathy is that we have to get beyond complaining and grumbling. And this isnt easy, it is HARD WORK. So let us get on with it...

dear author,

i think a lot of hindu religion that you describe is refered to as shastra (science of living). there is little spirituality in things like eat with your right hand and wash with your left. god does not get angry, no hellfire prescribed, neither is the injunction from any devine revelation. the practice of women in mense not participating in ``religius ritual`` is actually a modern watered down one..women were not expected to participate in household activities either (in mahabharata, draupadi refuses to show-up in the darbar after ydhistir lost her in a bet claiming mense). however, none of thse are like 10 commandments..these are merely shastras.

#59 hinduism is a very inward looking religion in IMO and lacks the community spirit of charity that is e.g. strong in the christian or the sikh. it would be a new-reformist invention and not an organic development. closest thing i have seen is in the madrassi temples..they do indeed form semblence of a community, whether in beasant nagar, matunga or Greenbelt Maryland. there is a temple, a community hall, kitchen, concerts, blood-drives, sunday school and so on. dont see much of ``helping the poor`` type charities though, which are absolutely common (almost a must) with christian churches.

Good article,
I think , this religion is only a guide line to serve humanity, there is no need to bush it in each and every aspect of life and add miseries to humans.

Revathy ji,

This discussion has been hijacked by this maniacal christmas discussion (though I enjoyed the hinduized version discussed in #49; I have also seen a christmas tree with a 2 feet neon ``OM`` at the top!).

Let us come back to the point you wanted to make. What aspects of hindu tradition would YOU like to see developed further?

community feeling and service?

compassion towards all?

ethical teaching and good behavior?

Lets get beyond criticizing ancient practices from a 1000 years ago. They may have made sense then; they are probably not relevant today.

57-

Eid too was a pre-Islamic festival in Arabia.

Ref #30 by harimau

The discussion is not about Islam but about religion in general. But the same holds true for Islam. The space for debate about the religion and practices have been taken over by the right leaving no space for a civilised discussion.

The challenge is to develop new categories and vocabularies of engagement. To understand the multiple aspects of religion in daily life.

The reason Indian life is so suffused with religion is because Hinduism is co-opted various cultural practices. What is Diwali, Holi, Basant?..try and see them in light of agricultural seasons and the logic emerges.

What has changed today with SANSKAAR and other channels is that religion has become in your face. People will have a Puja in a colony with loudspeakers spoiling everyones Sunday.

BTW
Christmas is a religious/commercial holiday. Like all holidays it has different meanings for different people. It was a ``pagan`` festival that early Christianity adopted in its bid for survival.

Aditya

Partha da,

(``...If there is one thing I would wish for our country and then the rest of the world it would be freedom from religion...`` If you are looking for another Indian wishing the same, you ve just come across one )

Even more than that, India and the rest of world needs freedom from communism, socialism, leftism and assorted pathologies.

Regards

Manto mian, Zeenaji,

Re: Chhoti Eid

We also celebrate a festival called Chhoti Diwali a day before Diwali, afaik it has no significance but it gives us another day of revelry. Glad to know that we hanuds are not the only ones to create festivals for the sake of general merriment.

Regards

Dear Zeena...

Could you please quote the divine revelation and/or Hadith which makes choti Eid an Islamic holiday?

This was an Arab holiday... which predates Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)... Ramadan was the religious portion in the whole thing... now even that is cultural if you think about it.

``...If there is one thing I would wish for our country and then the rest of the world it would be freedom from religion...``


We as a nation have tried `praying` for most of our history.
Progress was made only once we started using our brains, which isn`t that long ago.

Religion is the start of the JOURNEY back into ignorance.
The Americans have the head start here, with `Creationism` shoved into the school syllabus already.

If you are looking for another Indian wishing the same, you ve just come across one.

Re: # 31

rock on brother...you da man!

On the whole I agree with #2 (harimau) & #3,4 (Zeena) post w.r.t. this article.
On discussion of X`mas as christian holiday, those who argue that its not have not really seen the heartland of America. Please go few hundred miles from the coast and you will see the fervor of christmas in any home. You will church filled for mid night mass. Even if some hindus or other non-christian celebrating it they do it a many reason to fit in or even because of their childrens insistence but most of america believes that it as a religious occasion.

#49
jang jii
This is NOT the point here. The whole point is , Is Christmas religious or NOT?

To celebrate or not to celebrate is your own choice. Even I can celebrate diwaallii . Even though dewalli is Hindu festival.

Does my celebrating diwalli make it NON Hindu?
No, it will be Hindu festival.

Same is with christmass.
It is a Christian holiday. My or your celebration does not change the fact or does not make it Hindu or Muslim.

Thank you.

It was/is/will always be a religious holiday. No more discussion on this.

zeena, most hindus in the us/west follow xmas. they set up a tree, a nice blue fir is selected, a fresh cut is made and installed on a good muhurat. (cheapos get the plastic one from basement). every evening untill xmas day, the children perform a puja and burn incense in front of the tree and light a little lamp. some also make rounds around it. if done with proper devotion, good children are rewarded well.

#46
hamdim2
Please, I do not wish to continue this discussion any further. If you will I will NOT respond any further. Thanks

There is no way I will be convinced. Stop trying hard. You are palying too, hard on yourself. Give yourself a break. and your confusion will be less tensed

Good luck and good bye.

Ref echoboom #37

[....Herr Herzog converted to Islam as far back as 1979, when he realized that “the Qur’an gathered together everything I had ever believed in.”...............]

You mean, more than even ``Mein Kampf``?

Re: # 43

zeena,

..... how can i assure you that christmas is not a religious hoilday regardless of what jerry falwell and pat robertson say .......

you say :``Each and ever Christian house in America gets religious decorations near Holiday season, that is x-mass, except for Jews, Muslims and from other religions`` ....... that is not entirely true because i tooput up a few lights on my house, as does the hindoo down the street - we don`t want our houses to be the only ones that are dark on christmas eve .....

..... you also say: ``Majority of Christians go to Churches masses on the day of x-mass early in the morning`` ......... no they do not, because most of them have a hangover from all the eggnog and then they have to gather around the christmas tree in their pajamas to see what santa brought them for being good all year ........

...... believe it or not, christmas is sponsored by hallmark, unicef, the chamber of commerce, and the jaycees .........

...... actually the only religious holiday in america is halloween

this article has some under-currents of not liking mother as much as father which may have some contribution towards seeking a new religion. may i suggest that a rebellion has something to do with the authors relationships with parents?

#42
Mantolives
I stated what I wanted to stae already in my post # 43.

I am not here to convince you or anyone else.

You people are ranting with out any direction. Repeating samething again and again.

If you wish to make Christmas cultural , go ahead make it cultural. Nobody is forcing you NOT to.

But, fact remians the fact.

Go ask anyone in America , x-mass is religious holiday or not(You do not believe me).

Go ask President of America?

It comes under cultural holiday or religious holiday?

Yes, it does come under religious holiday.
I am sure even if POPE tells you it comes under religious holiday, you will say NO you are wrong. It is a cultural thing.

As long as celebrating x-mass is, Muslims can also celebrate it. B/c we believe in Jesus Christ as well. And I too , celebrate x-mass. I also go to Church to attend their morning mass.

Even in Pakistan, I used to go to Church mass on x-mass b/c in my opinion christmas is not only for Christians ,but it is also for Muslims as well.

Now, this is another extreme, you are saying EID is also cultural thing. Wonderful!!!

What can I say to your confusion as well.

If EID is NOT religious and it is cultural then It is useless to discuss with you anything.

Yes, Badsant is a purely cultural festival.

YLH
It is OK to disagree on some issues, but to say there is NO SUN, when we see Sunlight. This is absurd.

You are saying EID is not religious festival. WoW!!!

No more discussions from on this issue,b/c this sentence has just made me speechless.

Re:- # 41

hamdim2
You see here you`re again coming up with confusion.

Do not make these things complicated and confused.

X-mass is a religious holiday. No doubt it. If it is not then why it comes under religious holiday?

Why debating on something that is already clear. Please, do not disrespect x-mass and it`s celebrations , this is the way people show respect to the birth of Jesus Christ. It is your confusion to mock Christians as well.

If you do not believe in religions fine with me. Don`t. But who are you to make fun of those who do believe in religions.

Each and ever Christian house in America gets religious decorations near Holiday season, that is x-mass, except for Jews, Muslims and from other religions.

And you are telling me, only few get decorations infront of churches. This shows your naiveness.

Majority of Christians go to Churches masses on the day of x-mass early in the morning.

And you are telling me they don`t . Wonderful. You are wonderful...........I must admit. You are a knowledgable person. hahahaha


You are a kind of person, who will also say there is NO sun , when there is sunshine out side.

So, keep your confusion to your self. No more discussions from my side.Thank you

Zeena...

I think Hamidm has already stated what I wanted to say...

Christmas is a cultural holiday.. except here culture slowly evolved out of what was once a religious tradition.

Today... Xmass is celebrated by believer and non-believer alike... I celebrated Xmass when I was in the US... just like I celebrate Choti Eid... which is also not a religiously sanctioned holiday mind you... but a cultural one... and Basant ... also a cultural event.

Re: # 39

zeena,

...... i think what manto is saying is that most people do not think of christmas as a religious hoilday ...... very few people go to midnight mass on christmas eve, even fewer go to church on christmas day, and there is really nothing ``christian`` about the christmas tree and that fat guy in a red suit coming down the chimney ...... no, he is not the archangel gabriel ! ...... sure there are some folks who put out nativity scenes in front of churches with camels and palm trees and the three kings and a little naked baby shivering in sub-zero temperature, but nobody pays too much attention as they drive by .....

..... it is all about shopping, drinking eggnog, opening presents and then going back to the stores to return ichy sweaters, gaudy ties and ugly bath robes ..........

Christmas is the only religious holiday in America that is also a legal holiday. December 25 was selected as the date to observe Christmas by Pope Julius in ...

RE:-
#36

Mantolives

Give me a break. x-mass is not a religious holiday??
Are you kidding?

When we are given holiday schedule. X-mass comes under official religious holiday.

Sometimes, when I work, it is my choice to take off Eid as my religious holiday or x-mass.

Re: # 37

dear chowkies,

....... contrary to the fear mongering by echoboom, i am glad to report that germany is still a safe and fun place to visit ...... i was there for there for the festival in mainz in march and i can assure you that it was one heck of a party - the beer is still good and the bratwurst has never been better ...........

.......... echo is mistaken if he thinks that the germans are going to stop shaving and start upending themselves five times a day any time soon ............ that would be worse than putting on brown shirts and goose trotting through the strrets of munich .......... i think they have been there and do not want to relive the nightnmare .........

The secularoons & liberaloons have no clue what the new frontiers of knowledge are. How can they? they have accepted westernism from their masters just so that they can prostrate to Lakshmi & Mammon i.e pseudo-hindus & freudo-muslims.(respectively?)

It will be relentless.


http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/News/Trifkovic/NewsST102903.html

YOUNG GERMANS EMBRACING ISLAM:
REICHSFÜHRER HIMMLER DELIGHTED
by Srdja Trifkovic

According to a recent Agence France Presse report (October 25), Germans are converting to Islam in increasing numbers. They are also “getting younger and younger,” according to Muhammad Herzog who runs a Muslim cultural center in Berlin. He is quoted by the AFP as saying that “many are looking for new lifestyles and some sense of direction.” Herr Herzog converted to Islam as far back as 1979, when he realized that “the Qur’an gathered together everything I had ever believed in.”...............


...............(continued):click

Xmass is hardly a religious holiday... Come on now.

The erstwhile communist/socialists, & after the humiliation of their godmother Rusian, the ``maadren`` secularoons & liberaloons have always been a goose-step behind times.

These 40+ aunties & uncles, with sagging breasts & belching bellies (respectively?), are roaming dazed & lost in the concrete jungles. Unzipped & barehipped, they have not heard the news not that the world war is over.

It would be far more productive , than writing such nonsense, to stop the western curses of drugs, sex, and alcohol in yourself & your progeny.

http://christianity.rinf.com/?p=169

---

Odd to think that some young people have better insight into faith than their parents do.

Think that’s too generalized? There are plenty of specifics to back it up. Let’s skip across the ocean first.

The Sunday Times reported last week that baby boomer parents in Great Britain are seeing more and more of their children converting to a faith, especially Christianity and Islam.

And some parents aren’t happy about it.

A British mother, who’s agnostic, conceded that her twentysomething son was “quite aimless” before he joined an evangelical church.

Today, she applauds his sense of purpose, but says, “It also makes me sad because none of the rest of the family shares his beliefs, and it excludes us from a massive part of his life.”

Myfanwy Franks, an author quoted in the Times, has interviewed British converts to Islam (15,000 have claimed the faith in the past few years) and Christianity and sees a sociological angle to their decisions.

“

Revathy
This is a well written article. So many echoes....

However is the need for a religion, perhaps because nobody can live by the highest ethical standards?

Is religion is invented perhaps to absolve you of any blame that you might attribute to yourself, and to make you feel even better when you do something altruistic?

Would it better to be perfect and dead, than be alive and a little sinful , like hamidm2, myself (please not Starbucks, but yes to St.Emilion ) and most of us ?

More questions ....

Why is duplicity and embedded violence in our society a patriarchial trait?
When the religious right became more powerful, did you question every religion and every community?
Would rejecting religion be better than transforming it, even if you did not believe?

Revathy
This is a well written article. So many echoes....

However is the need for a religion, perhaps because nobody can live by the highest ethical standards?

Is religion is invented perhaps to absolve you of any blame that you might attribute to yourself, and to make you feel even better when you do something altruistic?

Would it better to be perfect and dead, than be alive and a little sinful , like hamidm2, myself (please not Starbucks, but yes to St.Emilion ) and most of us ?

More questions ....

Why is duplicity and embedded violence in our society a patriarchial trait?
When the religious right became more powerful, did you question every religion and every community?
Would rejecting religion be better than transforming it, even if you did not believe?

Hi Revathy,

This is a really nice article. What you are pointing out is that hindu practice today emphasizes (1) deities should protect us from bad things (2) social stability, we
should have a family life in which we follow traditions. But are these the main challenges young hindus face today?


With the advent of science and more open societies, these are more and more fringe issues. It may be mildly interesting that our family tradition is vaishnavite or that our jati is such-and-such. But for me these are just details...

So what should be the core issue in hindu practice? Should it be ethical behavior? Is it compassion for all living beings? Should it be seva to others? Should it be participation in a community life?

Many people assume that hindu traditions are frozen in place forever. Nothing could be further from the truth. We are in a period of tremendous change, I encourage you to lead the change.

My own personal take is that hinduism of the 2000s has more to do with Patanjali, Kapila, Buddha, Kabir, Nanak, Ramdev and such. It is no longer 600AD, we are no longer totally dependent on Vishnu`s protection from evil, we are more and more autonomous, so some guru`s opinion is not that critical to us.

The challenge is how to live a meaningful life in a time of both great disparity and wealth; how to make a difference when many educated people are obsessed with consumerism, even as they lead deeply unhappy lives.

Re: # 30

harimau,

..... i understand your pain ........ over the past twenty five years i have spent thousands of hours with my good hindoo buddies - since there is no such thing as a good muslim buddy - drinking and discussing everything under the sun, but i still don`t have the foggiest idea what hindooism is all about ........... other than the fact that an elephant-nosed god once rode on a big rat - which i find highly improbable !

.......... most of them don`t even want to talk about their faith and get a confused look on their face when you ask them to explain it ............ they would rather talk about the barmaid`s considerable physical attributes - which, i must admit, is a very valid subject for discussion ............ and every time they do talk about their religion and say something like ``well, you see, hindooism is a way of life`` they leave me even more confused ........... most hindoos i know would rather eat a cow than worship it, all of them drink like the heathens that they are, and no one wears the red mark of the devil on his forehead and, to this day, i have not seen any of them levitate ............. sure, a couple of them wear some kind of a thread necklace and i have heard other hindoos whisper that these guys also have a little temple in their basement where they chant and sway and engage in all sorts of scary pagan rituals, but these guys are few and far between and most hindoos don`t seem to hold them in high regard and seem to avoid them like the plague .....

........... my hindoo friends are always assuring me that the vegetarian and teetotaling brahmins are horrible people and a bunch of constipated party poopers who, like the mullahs and padres, want to ruin the one and only life that we have since ......... most of them don`t really believe in coming back as cows or crickets or poultry even though some of them have an uncanny resemblance to these creatures .......... the only thing that they take seriously about their religion is tantric sex, and everyone claims to be an expert ! ............go figure !............ they tell me that the majority of hindoos are hamburger-eating and whiskey-swilling party animals who do not care whether they are buried or cremated after they pass out and then pass on ................ and i love them for it ...... as a matter of fact, i have seriously been thinking about reverting back to the religion of my forefathers because, as we all know, islam is a rather dour and joyless religion which eventually leads people to blow themselves up .................

.............so please don`t tell me that there is more to your religion than meets the eye ........... i like the hindooism i know .........

Ref adityapant #24

[A few days back attended a discusssion on Secularism, Democracy et al by a major writer/thinker. He took a position somewhat similar to yours, arguing for the complete erasure of religion from public life.]

Let me make a guess here.

The major writer/thinker, if he is an Indian, is not a Christian nor a Muslim; he is not a Sikh, Jain nor a Buddhist; he is not Jewish nor an animist.

All those who nodded in approval as they listened to his sage wisdom won`t belong to any of the above mentioned religions.

That leads to only one thing.

Hindus are their own worst enemies.

They are worse than Aurangzeb.

Because even under Aurangzeb, Hinduism survived.

With these pseudo-secularists, Hinduism doesn`t have a chance, not when Revathy Gopal and others nod in agreement and look for ways to abandon Hinduism.

I think Revathy Gopal needs to be put inside a burqua.

hamdim2

Please, stop your projection of confusion upon others. Your confusion is killing you and you are like a merry go round, like a vicious cricle of confusion.

I am now worried about your mental health. This state of confusion will kill all your intellectual though process. You see it already killed you and you don`t know what you are talking about.

Seriously,

Re: # 2

This is terrible news! How come this was never reported in the media?

Re: # 26

zeena,

``There is no question of accepting or rejecting Hadiths/Sharia....These two things are created by confused minds and complicated minds ``

.......... anouzobillah !........ are you suggesting that the prophet (pbuh) and his companions (ra`s) had ``confused`` and ``complicated`` minds .......... and what about the chroniclers like imam bukhari; are you suggesting that they too were missing a sandwich ?

........ you must be careful - most good muslims would consider you a heretic for harboring such nasty thoughts ........

..... anyway, good luck to you in your search for the truth ...... you really must contact tahmed - he has already rented an abandoned crack-house in baltimore to start his church of latter day koranists

RE:- #23

Mr.hamdim2

You see once again, you are using this defense mechanism of PROJECTION and reaction formation for me.

Listen, let me remind you again, if you are highly CONFUSED about your belief or religion , do not relate your thoughts with me as well.

I am NOT confused. I exactly know what I am doing and where I am coming from.

I am not making a new and improved Islam. I am not here to revolutinize any new cult.

I am just STICKING with the real, simple and true Islam which is in Quran. There is no confusion about it.

There is no question of accepting or rejecting Hadiths/Sharia....These two things are created by confused minds and complicated minds like you.

So, once again stop projecting your own disrupted thought processes upon me. Both of us are from different sets of class. Thank you

PS:- carry on with your confusion.

#16 by Mantolives
Mantolives sahib

Yes, indeed x-mas is a religious holiday. Those who believe in Christ , they celebrate it and those who don`t they don`t.

When it is marked in yearly schedule, it comes under religious holiday. Like eid , Easter etc etc.

I am not here to be irrational to your irrational approach. All I wished to say about your irrational approach is in my post #12.

Again, you can not judge my rationality with your irrationality and sameway I won`t judge your`s.

I am the one who is being open minded here. And on the contrary you are just repeating the same thing again and again with out even reading my post #12. No further debate on this.

PS:- I live in America, America has it`s certain culture, which is influencing my day to day life. Still I do not celebrate x-mass b/c it is religious occassion. It has got nothing to do with culture.

Hi Revathy

A quick post, will write more at leisure.

Thanks for the article.

A few days back attended a discusssion on Secularism, Democracy et al by a major writer/thinker. He took a position somewhat similar to yours, arguing for the complete erasure of religion from public life.

the discussion left me thinking. is religion the problem or its manipulation?

hmm by adopting an ``idea`` of secularism WE (and here I mean educated, ``rational,scientific`` citizens, products of a ``secular`` education) abandoned the field of the religion to the far right and others.

By denying its role in the public sphere, we denied ourselves the the possibilty of engaing with it in a constructive sense.

What we have produced by our ``secular`` education system in India and the West, are citizens with no knowledge about other cultures, religions and that ignorance has over time bred hostility.

Dont get me wrong...The answer is NOT religious education, but conversation about each others religion as a part of the education.

zeena,

..... i am disappointed because for a while i thought that you were actually searching for a personal god instead of being just another sheep in the herd ........... on the one hand you want to introduce a ``new and improved`` islam which is ``hadith/sharia free``, and on the other hand you want to hang on to the concept of a vengeful god who is always threatening to kill, maime and burn folks for this or that infraction ......... do you see the dichotomy ?

......... and yes, you can still have fun as a cultural muslim without subscribing to the poppycock dogma - you can still celebrate eid by putting on new clothes and bangles and eating sheer khurama, without going out and killing a poor animal to satisfy a cruel god`s lust for sacrificial blood ...........

Six Dalits embrace Islam in Tamil Nadu

The Quaid-i-Azam said:
``Pakistan came into existence the same day the first hindu embraced Islam``.

How true.

It is the hindus, who are hounding their own, by thousands, to create Pakistans everyday even today. Mubarak Mubarak.

Thanks.

---

Press Trust of India
Posted online: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 at 1356 hours IST


Tuticorin, June 1: Close on the heels of Tamil Nadu government withdrawing the anti-conversion law, six Dalits of a remote village in the district embraced Islam, citing discrimination from Hindus as one of the main reasons for the conversion.

Advertisement
Official sources said on Tuesday that a group of Muslims, including clerics from Erwardi, Thanjavur and Theni district initiated six persons, Sudhakar (19), Subbiah (46), Murali (26), Palani (26) and Kottaisamy (28) into Islam recently.

The state government officials said the conversions were voluntary. There are about 150 Dalit families in Melmandhai village prone to embrace Islam, the new converts said.

The people in the region were facing scores of difficulties following the failure of monsoons, lack of educational facilities, large-scale unemployment among other things.

(This belongs here as well:--from the Human Dimensions board)
Oh what an opportunity to find so many rotten-eggs liberaloons, secularoons, and munafiqoons in one basket.
The Lord, indeed, works in mysterious ways.

---

An english Quat`aa(not a rubayee) or quatrain.

Wherefrom is the acrid whiff of burnt hearts emanating?
Must be from the kirya karams of secularoons, liberaloons.
and from whence is the miasma of the maggots leaking?
must be from the lungs & livers of the munaafiquoons.


Maybe this will help to hasten to end their misery. Gong-time to the grave or ghaat is sooner than they realise.

READ ON!

---

Why European women are turning to Islam By | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
PARIS
Mary Fallot looks as unlike a terrorist suspect as one could possibly imagine: a petite and demure white Frenchwoman chatting with friends on a cell-phone, indistinguishable from any other young woman in the café where she sits sipping coffee.
WHY BRITISH PEOPLE ARE TURNING TO ISLAM
Why British Women are turning to Islam
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/1999/433/bk7_433.htm

Rev reva315 #11

[Harimau, It wasn`t Matunga.]

So it was Sion or Chembur. That doesn`t matter as much as the fact that you have grown up with a worldview that is out of touch with reality.

[Why does my growing up in Bombay bother you so much?]

Because I have seen enough of your kind who walk around with their noses up in the air when they visit the South. And the fact that you guys and gals are typically clueless and believe as if the Bombay model is the solution to the imagined ills of any place you visit.

[Of course Hindu Senas are innocent of all bloodshed, even within their caste-based communities!]

A little more of bloodshed by the Hindu Sena would teach certain people lessons that they have forgotten under 60 years of pseudo-secularism and left-wing ideology so there is nothing wrong with it, though I am sure we don`t see eye to eye on this matter.

I am totally agree with ``zeena`` rational thoughts.

Ethical standards are intrinsic part of every religon.

Might be You not selected the right ocean to dunk therefore you are so frustrated and

thinking about new.

Your frustration is quite obvious in your case.

Faiz

Revathy:

I am just so confused, why a talent person like you, would like to invent religion. Aren`t there enough problems? Why not invent something more fun?

I enjoyed reading the article.

Anil

PS:

Additionally things are compounded when one thinks of the secular socialist zionist David Ben Gureon- the first prime minister of the State of Israel and its founding hero- was an atheist who refused to wear the skull cap for his aversion to faith... He also made sure religion was kept out of state`s affairs...

What is Zionism? Religion or culture?

Dear Zeena ...

Two questions:

1- How do you classify Xmas? Is it a religious celebration or a cultural one?

2- If it is religious, how do you classify those who celebrate it with great zeal but have no religious faith in Christ`s divinity?

Culture is always group based... it can be regional or religious or a mixture of the two. For example Hinduism is an all emcompassing religio-cultural identity.. more than Islam can ever be. Religion itself is