God in Vedas and Upanishads

#150, swarrier: Unless you know and have experienced what an esotric thing is it is better to not commit to trash it.

#151, Krishna_abcd:
I am not a Muslim but I can tell you that you are barking up the wrong tree.

I do not think that Islam concerns itself with the philosophical aspects of epistemology. Like other Judeo-Christian religions, it starts with the given assumption that Allah created the world and its inhabitants like a kumhaar, if you understand the Hindi term.

Above all Islam is, much more so than Christianity, a politico-social strategy. Upto that point it was very effective in introducing reforms in arbitrary and ritual laden West Asia and Northern Africa, even in India due to exploitative caste system.

Even the Vedas are not philosophical despite the quotation from Rig Veda given in the article above. It is the unique charateristic of the Upanishads that you are trying to find the analog of in the Islamic Koran and it is nowhere to be found other han the Upanishads.

However, Islam has been completely done-in by the ridiculous and fascist emphasis on one god. This is simply because due to most acute lack of secular education the Muslims are a cheap and effective cannon fodder for the clever internal rulers who are buttressed by the foreign powers due to their own selfish needs.

#152, majumdar:
Inspite of the fact that Kabir did take inspiration from Islam, your comment does injustice to Nirguna because Nirguna is based in the Upanishads` Absolute rather than the jealous allah.

Maulana Urstruly (pbuh)

(God is absolute and he is above all human emotions, norms, and criteria of justice. He is not constrained by time and space. Just as a woman hates to share his man with another woman or vice versa, God does not like His rule shared. )

Your views on God are not very different from the nirguna (i.e. attributeless) theory of God that some Hanuds have-according to them too God is formless, infinite, omnipresent, omnipotent etc. But obviously your God does have one human quality- jealousy.

Regards

I would like some knowledgeable Muslim to expound on the philosphy of the Koran. With quotes. I am not interested in social rules and regulations, hellfire and stuff like that.

I am only interested in the philosophical aspects. Where there is some kind of discussion on the nature/origin of the universe, on the nature of consciousness, on the meaning of life and existence etc.

I have looked pretty hard, and come up empty. So if there is something I am missing, I would appreciate someone pointing it out. With quotes. And translations.

And there are some areas of Hinduism I`d like to confine to the rubbish heap of history. Sati, caste, the patriarchal bits, some esoteric aspects of tantrism. ..... We`ll get there eventually.

Re: # 148, swarrier:
You are entirely consistent with my #125.

Re: # 147
The meek shall inherit the earth, but they won`t keep it for long.-) Do you like my Christian take on it?

We still worship our swords and our kul-devi Bhagawati in our ancestral home.

Re: # 145, swarrier:
In the ecstasy to praise Hinduism, let us not forget the Sanskrit formula:

Viir bhogyaa Vasundharaa.

Re: # 144, swarrier:
All religions have God forgiving of the ``truly`` repentant. What I am referring to by Forgiving God is related to adoption of non-violence in daily life - turning of the other cheek. Sorry, if I was not clear.

For your question about the Hindu God: No, that is the entire Karma theory. Do good you will be rewarded, do ill you will be punished if not in this life in the next. See also, in the article above. Later thinkers have tried to introduce the concept. For example the common Hindu Prayer at the end of the day:

Hey Prabhu rakshaa karo Hamaarii,
Ham aaye haiN sharan tihaarii;
Din bhar key aparaadh hamaarey,
Kshamaa karo Karunaanidhi saarey.

By the way, the envisaging of a forgiving God is also a means to have assuaging of the pricks of the Conscience which as pointed out in #142 forms one third of the Vedantic God which according to me is the Quintessential God (QG). Other interpretations prevalent in polytheistic Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam are the subsets (no undermining implied) of the philosophical/psychological mix.

Monotheistic models of Semitic religions are simply user-friendly approximations which people with average abilities can grasp and function with. Buddhism in contrast with the the religions above adopted an agnostic approach - by declaring non-existence of soul. I am afraid that is all that could be done 2500 years ago as there was no idea of DNA to be used at that time to explain the operation of living organisms.

Re: # 141
I have to agree with pmishra2. There is no one way. It is best to have many roads and many pilgrims and doubters.
Actually one of the most endearing parts of Hinduism is the belief that everything is a manifestation of the divine. There is no superior life form.
Hinduism does not command that animals be subservient or slaves to man, or that man should exploit the earth. This is of course present in other religions but not in the Abrahamic traditions.

Pmishra2 I am one up on you. I had to feed an elephant after the puja. It was exhilarating and frightening. -)

Re: # 142
Inquirer
The Judaeo-Christian god forgives those who truly repent. Them as don`t will suffer hell-fire and damnation. It is still very much in that tradition. At least my reading of the testament and the bible leads me to that conclusion. By the way does Hinduism mention a forgiving god in the early stages at all?

Re: # 141, pmishra2:
No, it is not hard to explain, provided the the mind to which it is imparted is not closed and averse to others.
Directly from Upanishadic tradition, polytheism is a simple man`s interpretation of the syncretically enveloping Self of the thinker.

#137, swarrier: Repentance is different from a Forgiving God. Repentance shows existence of a conscience while The Forgiving God derives from the distinctly different ``non-violence to any one.``

#138, pmishra2: Can you shed light on Zoroastrianism and Manichaenism in this connection? I referred to Chritianity as our focus here is on Semitic and Hindu Religions.

#139, sanjay: Your interpretation of Hinduism is practice centered. No doubt it is important recognize the practice but it shows a de-emphasis on the philosophical understanding. People who do not know much about Sanatan Dharma in depth tend to emphasize the populist layman`s approach to multiple gods in Hinduism.

By the way ``Inclusive Monotheism`` is a good approximation but beware of its fundamental limitations. I would still say polytheism in Hinduism should be interpretted as mutiple ways of worshipping - defined as surrendering to a mix of conscience+humility+goodwill to all, called Self, in a formalized manner - rather than enumeration of many unrelated gods.

#139 sanjay

Let us agree to disagree on this in the best traditions of indic discussion and debate!

I respect very much both the sikh and arya samaji traditions but I cannot but help notice that both are stern, male-centred, authoritarian and have sometimes been violent. You are surely aware that the once very broad sikh tradition has now become dominated by people obsessed by ``apostasy``, ``purity``, insisting people keep long beards, separation from hinduism etc. In other words, a poor quality copy of islam.

The arya samaj people have done wonderful work in education and reducing child marriage. Yes some of their writings on other religions, including sikhs, are downright disgusting. They helped instigate the split with the sikhs in punjab in the early 19th century; this later lead (for various reasons) to the punjabi hidu-sikh divorce in the 60s and on.

In my mind, these are all the consequences of rejecting diverse ways to approach god. Once you start to believe there is only one way, inevitably you will conclude it is superior. Once you refuse to believe that the divine can manifest in many forms: animal, vegetable or human, you become obsessed with finding the one correct way.

The monkey and elephant gods of hinduism are symbols of our tribal history and our engagement with all nature. When I was a child, everyday once pooja was complete, I was asked to feed a cow, a crow and a dog with rotis! To me the hindu obsession with multi-faceted divinity is one of its most powerful and endearing facets. We need to deepen it and modernize it, not reject it because it is hard to explain.

A good analysis of Hindu Polytheism is given at Wikipedia. Just search for ``Polytheism``. Hindisim has been termed as ``Inclusive Monotheism`` i.e. One God is seen in different manifestations.

MISHRAJI, BHARATH,INQUIRER

I do not say that polytheism is bad or wrong. The problem is Polytheism, as a religous philosphy, has been rejected by most of the religions. Even Hindus have objected to Polytheism and Idolatory from time to time. Sikhs are one example--Sikh is a monotheist religion based on ``Ek Onkar`` or ``One God``

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the others were Arya Samajis and others such reforming groups. So the concept of 330 Million Gods & Goddesses as is being practiced by Hindus will be questioned again and again by Hindus themselves.

The second, and important point- I feel, is that Polytheist Hinduism prohibits or it rather puts brakes on Hindus to join various Interfaiths dialogues. This prevents Hinduism to join world religions because nobody is going to accept the Puranic form of God i.e. Elephant God, Monkey God, Snake God etc. etc. which is most prevalent in India. So to take Hinduism to the world platform, we have to speak in consonance with other world religions and fortunately for that we dont have re-invent our religion. We have to only rediscover it.

If my understanding of what is going around in 21st Century is correct, then I can say that Hinduism is already moving or taking turn in that direction. Today the buzz-word is not temples but ``Spritual Centres`` the most famous being ``The Art of Living Foundation`` run by Sri Sri Ravi Shankar in Banglore. The emphasis of these centres is move away from symbols and dogmas of religions, idol worship, multiple Gods etc. and move on to sprituality to have direct comunion with One God.

Thanks and regards.

#133 Inquirer

This Christ-in-India thing is not generally accepted. In any case, why focus so strongly only on christianity?

Other traditions such as Zoroastarianism and Manicheanism have also been significant and could have been influences. Judaism is of course a key faith for Christianity; we need to engage with all these traditions.

Greek was spoken for 100s of years in what is now pakistan. Mingling of indic and hellenic culture is another area of enquiry.