God in Vedas and Upanishads

Re: # 135
I think Christ could have got his ideas about a forgiving god anyway from Judaic traditions too. The whole period of Yom Kippur where one atones for sins etc , is there, so that people become truly repentant, then they are forgiven by Yahweh.

Re: # 118, urstruly:
Your first paragraph is nothing but self-delusion without basis. Remember the impact of Tsunami on Indonesian Muslims?

The second paragraph is unalloyed bunkum.

Re: # 134, jang:
I agree. But this is an area where additional work may change some perspectives. However, the emphasis on a forgiving God in Christianity points to its derivation from a Hinduism and Buddhism mix. Needless to say that the philosophy could not take root in Europe just as Buddhism did not survive in India too long.

#133 i objected to the ``widely believed`` part. the overwhelming christianity (people, scholars) do not contribute to this theory. the fundamentalist live (and some die) by the bible, and they do not subscribe to this. most akcnowledged (harvard-yale types) bible historians also do not support this. so i would say its a fringe belief.

Re: # 132,jang:
First, you have to believe that Christ was a human.

Next, the life of Christ between the ages of 13 and 30 is known to be unknown.

Finally, The Rosicrucians, a sect in Christians, openly believe that he had gone to India during that period.

Also, the Resurrection is a believed by many to be a description of picking up of Christ from the Cross and subsequent transport to Kashmir where he died at the age of 50.

The current versions of the Bible are Officially convenient stories, though that does not mean they are insignificant.

#131 {It is well known that Christ had spent a lot of time in India and he learnt the sophistication of the religious philosophy there. }

i am not sure its ``well-known``..the church certainly does not acknowledge this, nor do crhistians followers...if they did, they would show-up in kashmir as pilgrims. do you know of any scholarly/historic references?

Interesting conversation between sanjay and bharath.

I would like to state the following in connection with one god(monotheism), multiple gods(polytheism and its version henotheistic polytheism) and monism.

First from the article above:

1.Section b. ``Earliest form of religion consists in the worship of natural powers. In other words early man personifies the powers of Nature, which by virtue of great strength become his gods. These deities are divine only in a qualified sense, for, though called gods, they are necessarily conceived in a human mind and are regarded as being actuated by the same motives and passions as the person that conceives of them. In capsule, the man creates god in his own image.``
****This is the conception of multiple gods of the Vedas.****

2. Section b. ``Monism: The search for godhead was soon recognized to be yielding only partial unity. Monotheism necessarily implied duality. There is a higher conception of unity including nature as well as god and this is monism.``
****The Rishis thought through and found that any God other than that constituted from the Self is just a matter of unfounded belief.****

Secondly:

It is well known that Christ had spent a lot of time in India and he learnt the sophistication of the religious philosophy there. So, when he returned he tried to teach a combination of Buddhism and Hinduism. As a person knowledgeable about the limitations of common man, he adopted an approximation of Vedantic philosophy represented by monotheism. This had the benefit of adopting the Jewish monotheism - hence, its accessibility to common man - and incorporating Buddhistic element of non-violence with moderated views about women originating in Vedic but not Vedantic Hinduism.

Thirdly, so much for the historical development. For Today`s Hindus, the most important thing that is needed is to make Hinduism more just for the deprived and disenfranchised lower castes which Indian democracy is doing fairly well, though slowly. The intolerant wings of Hindus are as much at fault as the radical Muslims in the context of the of peaceful development of India.

Islam HAS to tone down its pronouncements of ultimacy and the Hindus have to ABANDON their exclusivity. As for polytheism in Hinduism, I think it is incorrect to say that the Hindus should be justly proud of polytheism. Hindus accept various ways of worshipping a god. The question of The God does not arise because all conceptions are based on human psyche and how can any two of them be identical? It is futile even to develop a common way of living let alone try for a common way of thinking. Of course, clever people have tried to delude humans since times immemorial to adopt regimentation which benefit none except the promoters of any set of books.

Re: # 126
Sanjay,
>>>Hinduism speaks of One God and thats the truth<<<<<

this is not my understanding....Brahman is not the same as the Jewish-Christian- Islamic one god. Mishra and Jang have given good responses. We simply don`t bother...now..there used to be all kinds of philosophical fights advaita, dvaita, etc.

My understanding is Brahman is the divine intelligence (saying divine intelligencee is an attempt ...it is not definable) which manifests as all living and non-living beings, all gods and humans included. (EVERY ONE-PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG). It is funny.to see..most of the western, and some time Indian writers mixing Brahman with Brahmin or Brahma.


>>>I dont think there should be anything wrong in it when we discuss our religions with others or try to get to know other`s religions<<<,

I didn`t imply that. There are lots of Muslims, who despite their Islamic teachings genuinely respect other interpretations and don`t bother to ridicule other beliefs. We grew up with them. I am afraid the 2 muslim posters here do not belong to this category....

I think they are here to broadcast the one and only true religion to the infidels. I guess you don`t feel that way. In other thread this Urs has posted ``Islamic social justice is inevitable``
Now....... that scares the hell out of me. I give a damn whatever that may be.

Regards,

hindus who worship some personal deity have a lot of faith in the specific deity....e.g. venkatesh of tirupati gets folks who spend a pretty-penny and time for a visit (darshan)..its a specific menifestation of devotion. they are not bothered by the ``one god`` dillema, they are absolutely focused on the worship at hand, that to venkatesh. and they hold no ill-will to others worshipping other gods, and will ring those bells and offer a flower at other temples, but that specific venkatesh holds an absolute special place.

#126 sanjay

Maybe (a good hindu answer)! But let us be careful to separate hindu brahman from ``final prophet`` and ``only son of god`` and stuff like that. Also, some hindus are over critical of our 10000s of gods and goddesses. In my view, this type of diversity is an important part of our culture and we shouldnt lose it.

#117 BHARATH

What I wanted to say was that I am not pretty sure whether my understanding is right or wrong--not that what has been written in the scriptures is right or wrong.

There cannot be anything as a ``true Hindu`` or a ``fake Hindu`` or ``right Hindu`` or ``wrong Hindu``. A Hindu is a person who believes in ``Neti,Neti``(neither this nor that) and is in constant search of the ultimate truth. And in pursuit of the ultimate truth, its purogative for him to look into others` religions as well( unlike for ancient Hindus, there are many full fledged religions now around for modern Hindus) , see where his religion is different from other religions( and seek for the answer as to why) and where it is common. The ancient Hindus used to work in isolation, modern Hindus have many peers around for discussion.

I dont think there should be anything wrong in it when we discuss our religions with others or try to get to know other`s religions.

#114 PMISHRAJI



So some of us have become convinced that this ``ONE god`` bevakoofy has something special to offer

Mishraji,

No not all. Its not that we are celebrating the (newly discovered) concept of One God in Hinduism. We are trying to fathom the real meanings of Hindusim, which you rightly say, has been corrupted by some.

Hinduism speaks of One God and thats the truth. Celeberations or no celeberations.

My Hindu friends:
Just take Jang at his words.

Whatever kind of Hindus we are, we need not be self-conscious about it. The acceptance of a variety of ways of worship is unique Hindu characteristic. And indeed we are proud of it. Why, because it is not important what you worship. What is important is do we humble ourselves before God and do we accept our fellow human beings, nay beings, if they do not threaten us? However, unlike Buddhists we do not avoid war, we must fight for our rights.

Muslim Friends: You are entitled to your implicit assumptions and leading life based on them, however, you have no right to threaten and ridicule others. Certainly if you produce a threat to others, then you should not be surprised at a violent response.

#123 bharath

Vivekananda is just one guy from a 100 years ago. We need more ideas and broader leadership. I would like to see more women scholars, more discussions of regional traditions, more discussion of relationship between indic traditions and new translations of epics etc.

Re: Muslim scholars, yes, well that is challenging. I have not seen much religous scholarship amongst muslims that a non-muslim would find compelling. Maybe this is just my ignorance...

Re: # 122
``garv se kaho hum hindu hain ;-)``

Jang,
I am afraid your posts don`t reflect this sentiment!

and how did you conclude that I am ``ashamed``
of your posts :-)


re#121
``If you look at religous christians and jews in the west, you will find scholars of the highest standing. Yes, some are more interested in ``boasting`` and proving others wrong, but many are quite humble and true scholars``

Mishraji,
I agree with this ......I am curious that you haven`t mentioned muslim scholars. have you come across any:-)?

about your lamentation about people not familiar with Indic thoughts ....all one has to do is read Vivekananda`s writings.....simple language....easy reading...

bharath, do hindus not worship stones and rivers? why are you ashamed of it? why should i not make fun of the worship? i think what i said was it should not be hard for folks who worship rivers and snaked to understand worship of a book.

anyways garv se kaho hum hindu hain ;-)