God in Vedas and Upanishads

#119 bharath

There is a difference between boasting about ones religion and being well informed about it. Sadly, for my generation of hindus, we have been so busy with earning our living that we havent had enough time to really engage with hinduism (indic traditions in general). This should (and I hope, must) change in the future as there are more educated hindus who do not need to focus only on becoming engineers, accountants, drs etc.

If you look at religous christians and jews in the west, you will find scholars of the highest standing. Yes, some are more interested in ``boasting`` and proving others wrong, but many are quite humble and true scholars. These people focus on integrating religous tradition with history, archaeology, science, psychology etc. and also provide a way to reach young people.

We are currently missing such a group of people from the indic traditions. Some folks like RKMission have made a start in this direction but much, much more is needed.

#114 If 1 god is good then zero god is better!

Re: # 115 by Inquirer on June 9, 2006 10:31am PT
>>>>>Let us focus on learning about each other`s religious thoughts rather than teaching them<<<<<

Inquirerji,
You have good intentions but that is a typical Hindu thought!

Islamists learn about other religions so that they could get even more convinced that their religion is superior. A frequent declaration of Islamists on this board is that after reading ``Hindu ideology`` they have realized that Islam is ``superior, straight farward, elegant``.

About your and Sanjay`s comments that Hindus don`t care to learn other reliogions...that`s because when compared to the hyperreligious Muslims, an average Hindu gives a damn for religion, especially when it comes to other people`s religion. I don`t know Sanjay`s Hinduism and he doesn`t know my Hinduism...and that is totally fine. Why is it a problem????

Muslims don`t live for themselves or the nations and societies they live in but for Islam. What is so surprising about their religiosity or obsession with religion? Isn`t that Koranic teaching.....if your brother is not a muslim kill him ...but fight for a muslim even if he lives far away?

Re: # 111 Sanjay

It has always been self-evident to human beings that the purpose of Nature is to serve the humanity and not to lord over it. I do not blame the primitive human beings who were overwhelmed by the forces of nature like bolts and lightening, the thuder roars of the clouds, the floods, fires, and what not, but a great paradigm shift has occured in human thinking only in past few centuries when he started harnessing the forces of nature. Now it has been abundently made clear that all these forces serve humanity. So in a hierarichal system of creation man does appear to be the viceregent of the One Creator, who created rest of the universe to be conquered by us and serve us. So our thansgiving should be directed at the One who truly deserves it.

God is absolute and he is above all human emotions, norms, and criteria of justice. He is not constrained by time and space. But when He choses to talk to us, He speaks our language and He alludes to the frames of references that we are accustomed to. Just as we would not like a stranger to come to our house and start living in it claiming half the ownership He also abhors when we try to make His equals in his partnership. Just as a woman hates to share his man with another woman or vice versa, God does not like His rule shared. He commands us to have all our focuses focused at Him and no one else. The rule is simple,if you think that God is Omnipresent and Omnipotent then He can only be one. If there are many gods then none of them can be Omnipresent and Omnipotent and hence they cannot be gods.

Re: # 111
``But I can share with you what I have understood , which may be right or wrong, I am not pretty sure``


SANJAY,
You don`t know and I don`t know...and don`t worry about it.

Be a free man. After all no one is going to say you
are not a ``true Hindu``!

Regards,

pmishraji,
Shukriya.

I have been reading Jang`s posts over the months and after reading his posts I feel more sympathy towards people who were born into Islamic fanatic/ absolutist hell hole.

Especially when I read his comments that Hinduism is complicated, confusing, etc my thoughts are ...hm...is this what some one who was born into Hinduism, and some one grew up in India can understand .........why should we get upset with Muslims and Christians? He has posted comments ridiculing Hindus worshipping stones, rivers, etc.

For a simpleton Hindu like me and perhaps most Hindus...it is difficult to comprehend such ``confusion`` and ``complication``.

If someone forces me to define Hindu thought in one sentence I will say -Try to understand this life, this universe while at the same time COMPLETELY respecting and allowing all other interpretations``. What is so complicated and confusing about this?...... How much freer and universal can you get beyond this?...........beyond me.

Look at the confidence with which one monotheist here comments about what ``God thought``...``God must have permitted`` hilarious...as if God has a private line to this guy.
And then this hilarious cover-up/ explanations for kissing the stone at Kaaba.


Swami Vivekananda has eloquently and elegantly trashed this intellectual superiority complex of monothiests.....and many other European philosophers before him have pointed out how much brutality and violence has been unleashed by the monotheists BECAUSE OF this superiority complex. I forgot who Schopenhauer...or Spinoza......

A man may worship a river or a million idols, but if he respects and shows kindness to
his fellow human beings he is infinitely better than a monotheist who ridicules other
people`s beliefs (besides of course flying planes into kafir buildings, destroying the kafir`s
places of worship, etc).


Here is one of my most favorite quotes, enjoy the rest of the day:

``The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.`` - Bertrand Russell

I am very happy at the responses of the participants. Let us focus on learning about each other`s religious thoughts rather than teaching them.

#113 jang

Thanks, for ``i reject the apologies being offered for polyethism``. I am SO sick and tired of hindus who prattle on and on about ``ONE god``. What is this nonsense? Does human life consist of one activity only? Hindus have always recognized that life is multi-coloured, multi-hued and operates on many levels. Their conception of divinity is similar.

My guess is that this is a reaction to 100s of years and abuse from christians and muslims.

So some of us have become convinced that this ``ONE god`` bevakoofy has something special to offer. I assure you it hasnt anything to offer other than a certain kind of fascist or authoritarian impulse. It should come as no suprise that it is the most backward and violent hindus who are promoting Shri Ramachandra as ``ONE god`` who is the boss man of all the others. Let us not go down this ugly path of supremacist christianity or islam.

i reject the apologies being offered for polyethism...its a wonderful thing. to me that is brilliant and poetic HUMAN endevour. you got your basis vectors, or thats as in music, showing off acute properties (ie shiva the romantic distroyer, vishnu the sustainer, durga the mysterious female force and so on) and zillions of personal or village or family deities which are some combinations. i love to go to the local noth-ameircan super-market style madrassi tamples with various isles for laxmi, ganesh, and many other gods who i dont recognize but for their name-plates in english.

hinduism is a human attempt to understand the nature and co-exist with it..so it has a god(s) but they are not exactly pure saviours like in islam and christianity. in islam, god is like a parent, who can magically provide a safe home as far as you follow the strict house-rules and curfew. he is a he, a poweful one who can smite ``others`` the evil tribes. therfore islam can offer much solace to troubled souls once the premise is accepted (or submitted to).

hinduism does not offer such security-blankie. my prediction is hinduism or such thoughts will flourish in times of prosperity, and islamlike will flourish in times of trouble.

#102 INQUIRER


Our Muslims have quietened.

I think they are quitely listening to what we are talking. Again sorry to say that though may be we dont consider their religion worthy of understanding, but they take pains to understand others` religions.

103 URSTRULY


It is accepted that Hindusim overtime has become complicated with many ideas and philosphies which are often conflicting that the true meaning of Hindusim is difficult to understand.

But I can share with you what I have understood , which may be right or wrong, I am not pretty sure.

If you take all the ocean of Hindusim appearing in all the scriptures and squeeze is to one last drop, it would be something like this :-

The salvation of mankind lies with this comunion with the nature, natural forces, natural cycles etc. though, behind all this, there is a Rachiayata i.e. composer and conductor of all what we have in the universe.

Either one makes comunion with this Composer and Conductor( which is commonly known as God and that too single) or with the Nature and Natural Forces, it is one and the same thing. However, the true worship is still the comunion with God( as told in Geeta).

Now, Islam does not permit comunion with the Nature and Natural Forces, instead, it says that one should make comunion only with the composer and conductor(called Allah in Islam). And mind it, Koran does not say that comunion with others like nature, natural forces is wrong per se, but it only says that human have a tendency to make different meanings to this kind of worship and has been thus prohibited by Islam.

On the contrary, Hinduism allows both kind of worship but with the emphasis that counion with God is the real worship.

#100 INQUIRER

It is one and the same thing(my post #99). The point is to make Hindus aware of other religion. Jewish Religion is quite similar to Hindusim and Christianity, Sikhsim and Buddhism is well known to Hindus. Only Islam is what they are unaware of.

Though Islam also has many commonalities with basic Hindusim but for political reasons only the differences have been brought into light. The five tenets of Islam are Profession of Faith, Prayers, Charity, Fasting and Pilgrimage to Mecca. All these five principles are also ingrained in ditto in Hindusim also only with the difference that instead of Allah, there is Ishwar, instead of Namaz there is Puja, instead of zakat(charity) there is Daan. instead of Rozas(fasting) there is Vrata and instead of Pilgimage to Mecca there is pilgrimmage to Char Dhams.

The Hindus must be told about Islam and they should also try to learn it themselves because it will first strengthen the secular fabric of the country and Hindus will be able to understand their own religion better when they will compare it with other religions.

Re: # 105
A layman`s question would be ``Who created me ``, it could as well be ``what created me``? Avoid the personfication. It could be anything. Multiple Gods don`t matter. Think of multiple gods as the myriad forms of the absolute if you really want to understand. The moment you ascribe to Hinduism the concept of multiple gods as primitive tribes believed them (gods) to be, then you lose the concept.

#103 ursy, the vedic worship is very much devoid of idols. idol worship is a later invention..more puranic.

so try some other spin?

fin shyte.. the kaba could be the icon of the borg from star-trek..now its all clear.

Rizwan et. al.
Actually the answers to all your questions are in Upanishads. Start with Uttar Upanishad. Basically, It will explain the logic behind ``One God/Many god``, ``Karma`` and its relation to re-incarnation etc. is explained in great detail. And it is in question/answer format and most of the questions you have asked are also asked in Upanishads. It is step by step guide and with lots of sub-branches to handle all the questions which come up. IMO, They were written by generations of great thinkers (Rishis) who had lots of time(unlike us) to ponder these issues. See the questions you were asking do not have simple answers like ``Believe this or die in Hell``. And this might shed some light for you on why Hindus are so tolerant of other beliefs. No ``My way or HighWay`` concept.