God in Vedas and Upanishads

I wonder here is the author ``ushil Bhatnagar is ? even after appearance of 47 posts? I hope he would reply to some posts atleast!
Kamath

To All:

1. I am sorry that I could not interact in the initial stage of comments accretion. Partly, this was because I had submitted the article in the middle of May and Chowk published it on June 1. Just before that time I became very busy and I am now getting back.

2. Thanks to all the commenters and I intend to review their contributions and respond suitably to the comments that call for a response. This may take a few days, though.

3. Glancing over the comments I detect some non-plussed attitudes. To help in the intermediate, prior to my interaction, I would like to present the logic of the essay which to me is self-evident but I am the one who wrote it!

It may help others, particularly those that are uninitiated in the Veda and Upanishad edifice, to realize that often Vedas and Upanishads are discussed as if they said the same things on all subjects of their concern. This is partly because not even more than a few percent of Hindus have a connection betwen their practiced religion and Vedas/Upanishads. For the subject at hand - The conception of God - the article works on the theme and shows that:

Section (a) - The conceptions of God are distinctly different in Vedas and Upanishads but they are NOT mutually exclusive, rather the Upanishadic thought is a developmental culmination of the Vedas` tentative surmises.

Section (b) - In the Vedas God was propounded and promulgated by humans for their own benefits. The basis of all that was the recognition of the regularities and forces of Nature. God was really a tool for surviving and prospering.

Section (c) - The sophisticated thinkers of the Upanishads recognized the deficiencies of the Vedic conceptions and philosophy and their thinking culminated in the development of MONISM. One has to understand the difference between monotheism which is simply a crutch for escaping the harsh realities of existence and personal responsibility of a lonely being and monism (as fleshed out in the Upanishads).

Finally, the grounding for the assumption of existence of the Soul (whose importance is self-evident not only for Hinduism but for all fully developed religions) is stated in the Upanishadic context.

I hope this helps and I believe adequate references have been provided for a serious reader who wants to have a deeper knowledge of issues just adumbrated here.

Re: # 35, Rizwan:
Since you have the largest number and length of comments:

Evidently you have presented an article possibly written by you as a comment. I have not read it yet because it is present in a very inconvenient format. Could you post it as a link so that one can print it out in a decent format? Glancing at it broadly, it seems to be very interesting. Particularly, because you are an Ahemadi. Thanks for it.

Re: # 42

As a matter of fact, Islam and Quran directly deal with this main subject, what is the purpose of life, mean to attain it and why God created humans. Quran is full of this subject, i fear you would not have the patience to listen and think about it with an open mind. But anyway, I will just quote one brief reference; where as Quran describes this important matter in detail.

[18:8] Verily, We have made all that is on the earth an ornament for it, that We may try them as to which of them is the best in conduct.

Re: # 45

Sunjay you tried to give it a little twist, as you wrote.

``You contention is that looking into the numerical strength of animal kingdom, the numerical strength of humans should be astronomically high. ``

The actual contention is ``Karma is a failed ideology to explain salvation of humans, becasue with little faults humans are being turned into sects and other form, then 1) from where new humans are coming from 2) when all the humans will be eventually converted into sects then this process will start over again? 3) If it starts over again then God as presented by Karam is unfair God.

Re: # 45

Can you present a proof that if Bhagwad Gita give this idea of live matter or dead matter?

See, one objection against Hinuds is this ``Now in this modern world, if hindu scripture are read as originally written then they appear hollow and devoid of wisdom and filled with comical ideas, due to this Hindu friends try to put new cover on the book, to do so they put forward new commentries which will squeeze enlightened ideas as Humanity has learned now into those old books``

Re: # 46

One God: Eik Shriwar is actually a prophecy of Quran, the very first revelation of Quran is

Read! and thy Lord is the Most exalted;

This prophecy is being fullfilled, Christiens has started saying we say trinity just for explanation but really there is only One God, so does the Hinduism, this is indirct influence of Islam. So as reading will spread so does the concept of one God, as God willed thousand of years ago. You have taken first step toward truth.

Re: # 46

You are right Beleif in one God and life after death is ``the fundamantal`` which makes all the difference.

In Islam, you can base your though totally in Quran, which does not need any outside help. What we beleif as Quran says that God send his messengers to all the nations and to all continents, and he still communicates with his humans. So Kirshan, Buddaha were all prophets of God, they brought fresh water to this world; unfortunately people who did commentry on their message (upnashids, etc) could not keep the ``essence of message``, due to this thier books got corrupted. God send his fianal compelte message with the promisse that it will be preserved upto end of times. Same message which was given in initial form by Kirshan and Buddha.

Kirshna said in Gita ``What would you do if a stream of fresh water appears outside of your village, would you still drink from the old pond``, think about it. Still there is truth, here and there, even if the original scriptures has been lost.

Re: # 50

Let see what do you mean when you write, for example when you wrote

``Section (a) - The conceptions of God are distinctly different in Vedas and Upanishads but they are NOT mutually exclusive, rather the Upanishadic thought is a developmental culmination of the Vedas` tentative surmises. ``

what does this mean, give us an example.

Or is it the reason 2% of hinuds are interested in their scripture.

What is developmental culmination of the Vedas ``tentative surmises``??

What is developmental culmination?

What is tentative surmises?

All I can understand is ``your english vocablury and spelling are better``

islamist critic of hinduism is correct, its not a perfect religion like islam. islam is almost like a finite algebra once postulated. its so simple and straightforward that even a child can get it. hinduism is nebulous and takes a long time for its practitioner to ``get it`` and many declare complete confusion upon ``getting it`` LOL.

so rizy and urstruly have a valid criticism.

Re: # 51

Refrence was given in post #25, it is posted again.

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_2_section_1.html

AS you are a student of Philosophy, you might be interested in a book, which is written based on reference

http://www.alislam.org/books/philosophy/index.html

Which covers these fundamental questions

• The physical, moral, and spiritual states of man
• What is the state of man after death?
• The object of man`s life and the means of its attainment
• The operation of the practical ordinances of the Law in this life and the next
• Sources of Divine knowledge

Due to the fundamentally supremacist nature of islam (and regrettably many of its adherents), a ``dialog`` with folks like Rizwan is like having a chat about vegetarianism with a shark.

The idea that any religion is ``logical`` or ``perfect`` is an inherently fascist idea. The idea that there is only one conception of divinity (``there is one god``) is a deeply flawed concept. Any system of thought that privileges itself in this way is on its way to being a murderous cult. In the end, the idea of one god, one book, one nation, if taken seriously, can only end in the gas chambers of Nazi Germany or in ethnic cleansing and cultural genocide as in pakistan.


Hindu traditions are a historical record of a large segment of the population of india over many thousands of years. As in any diverse and non-authoritarian tradition (buddhism is another example), they include many different ways of experiencing divinity and explaining our time on earth. Some made more sense 1000 years ago (jati/varna), others make more sense today (yoga). Some are imaginative retellings of our tribal ancestors (monkey gods) beliefs, others more abstract but less satisfying analysis of life (advaita). This is why hindus refer to their tradition as sanatan dharma (eternal or ancient dharma) explicitly acknowledging their all too human conglomeration of beliefs.

Responce to #60

Let me see what is supermacist?

A beleif that God only apperead in India and only spoke in Sansakrat, as if he forgot about the rest of the world and God/Gods only happened to deliver wisdom to select few thousand year ago in Geographicaly confined area. If this is not symptoms of supermacy then what are?

Or a beleief with ample evidance that God send his messengers to all nations, but their messages were corrupted by their followers. Like Kirshna and Budhha, and a belief that God is Al-Rahman, that is, he takes care of his humans even though if they believe in him or not, and God is Al-Raheem, he takes care of his humans who are clean in hearts.

And most important of all, these beliefs are coming from the original ancient source, and not as after thought, in a way to put a new cover on a dirty old book. Putting enlightened ideas as humans have learned now in old books. What is the source of this? irrational love to one`s own things or country of birth or ideas of parents at birth?

As kirshan said in Gita ``What will you do if a stream of fresh water appear outside your village, would you still drink from the same old pond``

Is it deap down, feeling of shame and frustration that historical texts are devoid of common-sense and descency as they were modified by cruel men of upnashids and manu-shasters. Why can not one see that, still there are sprinkles of truth in them, here and there, as were given by the originals;Kirshan and Budhha.

#61 rizwan the moron

[quote]
A beleif that God only apperead in India and only spoke in Sansakrat, as if he forgot about the rest of the world and God/Gods only happened to deliver wisdom to select few thousand year ago in Geographicaly confined area. If this is not symptoms of supermacy then what are?
[quote]

Where did you learn this nonsense from? You think this is what hindus believe? Says who? Bin Laden? The Pope?

If that is the case, I am sorry I called you a moron. I have insulted the word and lowered its reputation.

You are typical islamic twit, full of ignorance and stereotypes towards other religions. You feel free to ``summarize`` hindu beliefs in this childish way and you believe this is ``dialog``?
It is like a person slapping another person across the face and saying ``OK, lets have a discussion``...

geez, where do these losers come from....

#53 RIZWAN

I am not in the poition to answer to questions 1,2 and 3 because even if I answer them they will be subjective. Nobody knows the truth behind Life and Death Cycle and every person will have different perception, different answers to it.

Religion tries to explain the unexplained to the human beings. So religion is a matter of one`s faith and belief. I put a very simple question before you with four probable answers-- What do you think has lead Musharaff to gain Presidentship of Pakistan :-

a. God`s will
b. His Luck.
c. Chance
d. His Karma of Previous Birth.

Can you conclusively answer to the above question or the answer will depend upon one`s faith and belief?? I think its the latter.

Now, if at all I have to answer your questions , then my answers will be (of course they are based on my faith and belief) :-


1. from where new humans are coming from

They are coming from God`s kingdom.


2. when all the humans will be eventually converted into sects then this process will start over again?

What do mean by sects i.e. lower forms of life. Only a few will be converted , the majority will be repeating the Life and death cycle of Human Kingdom. So there is no question of process getting started all over again. The process has already started and it will continue upto eternity.


If it starts over again then God as presented by Karam is unfair God.

Karma has not presented any God. Its God who has presented Karma. Since the process is not going to start over gain, God cannot be termed as ``unfair``.

Regards.

#46 RIZWAN

One God: Eik Shriwar is actually a prophecy of Quran, the very first revelation of Quran is

Read! and thy Lord is the Most exalted;

How do I believe that it was Koran which reveled the concept of Single God or Ek Ishwar. Hindu scriptures are much older than Koran--preceeding about 2000 years.

The concept of One God is credited to Jewish religion and not Koran. But if you link Moses with Allah thats your belief. Jews and others dont believe that.

The concept of One God was either given by Jews or Hindus and not Koran. But the thing is Jewish Scriptures are dated prior to that of Hindu Scriptures. So as the things stand now, the concept of One God is credited to Jews unless Hindus prove it otherwise.

Regards.