The Height of Higher Education

Re: # 48
Discoverer: ``Great Philosophers & scientist like Ibn Seena, Al barunim, Al Rumi, Ibn Rashd etc all studied from tradinational schools called Madarasa``

Re:
I do not know what nonsense you are talking about. Instead of referring to outdated, useless, and thousand-year old Madarasa system, producing illiterates of a different type, come to the present-day real world that surrounds you and face its challenges. How many living science workers of science (forget about scientists) happen to come from the Madarsahs existing in the present Pakistan? Stop referring to ``great`` Muslim philosophers and scientists of ancient times, it does not help at all to improve the state of science and education in the present day Pakistan.

The government should encourage the communities to take over the task of offering Islamic studies in neighborhood mosques, which are a plenty. If religion continues to be taught in universities it should through the critical study of all major world religions and ideologies. Pakistan studies should become a part of the study of world history without recourse to jingoism and ‘patriotic excesses’

Well i disagree with your statements, as a matter afact We strongly need Islamic studies along with other universities courses. This is mainlly because Islamic Studies is not only about religion but it is about society as well. Let me put in this way.....

Our educational system is very much similar with the English System. English System emphesis mainly on Evolutionism and not Creationism. ( I am referring mainly toward medical Stream and others like it)

Great Philosophers & scientist like Ibn Seena, Al barunim, Al Rumi, Ibn Rashd etc all studied from tradinational schools called Madarasa. A typical madrasah usually offers two courses of study: a ``hifz`` course; that is memorisation of the Qur`an (the person who commits the entire Qur`an to memory is called a hafiz); and an `alim course leading the candidate to become an accepted scholar in the community. A regular curriculum includes courses in Arabic, Tafsir (Qur`anic interpretation), shari`ah (Islamic law), Hadith (recorded sayings and deeds of Prophet Muhammad), Mantiq (logic), and the Islamic History. Depending on the educational demands, some madrasahs also offer additional advanced courses in Arabic literature, English, and other foreign languages as well as science and world history.

It is sad to see many muslims universities following Western Method of teaching which only emphasis in promoting terror and distinction between individuals. Remember if people are blood then religions are viens.

Feroze sahib,

(What you call as the ``rape of the elite`` does exist and I will not deny it. Intellectuals, whom you have said ``sold out`` did so for a reason and that is they have to live in a real world, where everything costs money and they have to pay for the food on their tables; the shelter over their heads and the clothes on the back of their children. The experience of life in the real world suggests that we must learn to make choices within the limited options available to us and not wish for options, )

You culd not have said it any better. But I am surprised that you needed to say this to Maulana Masadi (RA), who knows thsi anyway. After all, for all the abuse that he pours on USA and its faulty system, he chose voluntarily to migrate from Pak to US- presumably to put food on his family`s plate.

Regards

Even though this hit while going through the last and preceding paragraphs -

- Open source committees like groups should be made which dedicate their expertise for one university / one stream of specialisation which takes up every realm which needs correction.

Of course..more the people more of thought process would be reformed and consolidated.

at the end what remains is implementation. it may be initiated from the student side. The students can finance it populate it with member and coin their ideologies.

#44, actually the vast majority ``accepts`` it because they have adapted to a particular social structure, issues are not clear given the working of institutions, what are presented as issues are mere distractions and quick fix, ``band-aid`` solutions. Enhancing consciousness of the masses, in which the intellectuals, who have the ability to transcend the projected ``matrix`` of the status-quo, would be the difference between any change occurring or not. When the intellectuals think like the masses who are circumscribed by the narrow orbits of their local environments and daily existence is when the status quo is guaranteed long term survival. I cannot accept that default.

re: masadi # 42

Agreed, that the real world is a social construct and I would even add to that, that it is a perception, not the reality, which decides what is and what is not a reality. I do not have agree to with this reality, but I am forced to accept it because I must live within its constructs. It would be futile of me to argue that life is just and everyone gets their fair share, because they do not and life is not just.

Once, I reach this junction where I have to make a choice and decide, whether I will accept this reality or not; I have to make another choice. I have to ask the question that if this is all injust, does the world want to change itself for the better or not? Experience, aleast in Pakistan, would imply that the world is a status-quo society on a societial level and does not wish to change. Common sense, which is a bitter realization, suggests the reason why a small minority is able to hold dominion over the majority is, because of the levels of acceptance that exist between the two groups and if the majority were to rebel; they could have easily ended the problem, which you have associated with the ``elites``.

In this sense, society has adopted a moral default due to its own reasons and whether we agree with it or not; whether C. W. Mills likes it or not, that is constructed reality of the world we live in.

On the other hand, we can seek to change the reality but then again, the nagging question remains - will the rest of the society support us or remain apathetic to our cause for their welfare?

Masasdi, the issues are clear and they have been and they are people, who keep the issues alive, but that is not the problem, is it?

The problem is, whether any one is listening and willing to do anything about it.

Ciao

Monday, June 05, 2006

Islamic education body draft finalised

By Mohammad Imran

ISLAMABAD: The Religious Affairs Ministry has prepared a draft proposal on an Islamic Education Commission (IEC), which will be sent to the president for approval, sources said.

Sources said that Ejazul Haq, the minister for religious affairs, would meet President Pervez Musharraf to get his approval and later meet Ittehad-e-Tanzimat-e-Madaras-e-Dinya (ITMD) representatives to finalise the draft.

According to the draft, the president will nominate the commission’s chairman and the ITMD the deputy chairman, both serving a three-year term. Representatives of five wafaqs representing major sects, the religious affairs secretary, the education secretary, a religious scholar and an education expert would be members of the commission.

The draft also proposes introducing the federal education board curriculum at seminaries. The wafaqs would nominate five people who would represent the ITMD and the religious affairs and education ministries would appoint two scholars.

According to the proposal, the five wafaqs will get the status of education boards and their degrees will be equal to matriculation, FA and BA. “But the ITMD would have to centralise its examination system and the commission’s chairman would be the degree-issuing authority,” sources said, adding that the ITMD would make its recommendations to the chairman.

The examination system and paper checking would be centralised under the ITMD’s own body.

An education expert would be a member of that body and overlook the whole process of paper checking. The commission would also play the role of a facilitating body in addition to issuing degrees to seminary students.

The commission would also be responsible for training of seminary teachers and helping them with their problems. Registration of seminaries would also be centralised at the IEC with the cooperation of the provinces.

The IEC would also provide funds to seminaries but only on the recommendations of the ITMD.

#41 ferozk <<
Masadi sahib, before you blame a person for a lack of morality or for having a moral default, please ask yourself what circumtances forced them into renouncing their sense of morality and having a moral default? It would be an intstructive lesson, I promise you! :) >>>

The ``real world`` that you talk about is a socially constructed ``reality``, there is nothing that suggests or makes it a logical necessity to be so. The moral default of those that can make a difference but choose not to, and I am talking at a social level and not the individual level here, that moral default results in debilitating suffering for hundreds of millions, more than the suffering that those individuals who reap the benefits of that power structure would ever suffer.

So if they keep defaulting and not even doing the minimum, i.e. make the issues clear, developing a public that can eventually do something to alter this ``reality``, then the suffering of the vast majority, who due to the way society is structured are not even offerend the chance to ``sell out to the elite``, will continue unabated. Allowing that suffering is immorality of a much higher level, in my opinion, than asking intellectuals, especially in the US who are not living hand to mouth, to reassess their default.

re: masadi # 39

I do not think that I was disagreeing with you as much as simply stating that the corporate nature of education is a reality and my disagreement with this reality is not going to make it vanish or change it. :)

In the modern world, education is a stepping stone towards earning a livihood and students earn degrees and pay for an education based on how economically marketable those degrees are in the job market. Furthermore, it is the job market which decides what a prospective student will learn and which ``majors`` will be better than others in securing good paying jobs and in a free market educational-economy, there is nothing wrong with this idea. The corporate nature of the education, which you critize, is also the same lassiz-faire education, which explains why the American system of education is so superior to most and why most students make a bee-line for American universities. United States education is responsive to what the market wants, which is why the United States economy has always shown an innate ability to renovate and adapt to changing economic realities.

There is a reason why a graduate of LUMS or FAST or NUST will get a good paying job and not a graduate from a madrassa. There is a reason why a person with a degree in finance or computer sciences from an American university will get a better job than a person who graduated with a degree in Ball Room Dancing from the same university. People pay nearly $ 50,000 a year for an Ivy Leaque education, because they expect the investment to pay off and it is a simple principle of economics, which has and will for the foreseeable future determine the value of education.

What you call as the ``rape of the elite`` does exist and I will not deny it. Intellectuals, whom you have said ``sold out`` did so for a reason and that is they have to live in a real world, where everything costs money and they have to pay for the food on their tables; the shelter over their heads and the clothes on the back of their children. The experience of life in the real world suggests that we must learn to make choices within the limited options available to us and not wish for options, which do not exist and this applies to Pakistani education as well.

In Pakistan, a pay of a teacher with a master`s degree in a government school is Rs. 10,000 and in a private school, it ranges from Rs. 35,000 to Rs. 50,000 depending on the work experience.

The pay of an average domestic driver, is by comparsion, Rs. 6,000.

A teacher will not sell out to the elites, if you provide an adequate financial incentive for him/her but if you do not, it is not the fault of the teacher if some one is willing to pay for his/her intellectual skills. Teachers, who offer private tutions in Pakistan do so to make a living, feed their familes and pay their bills and not because they condone the rapacity of the elites in education, among other fields. The cost of a private tution in Pakistan per student is nearly Rs. 20,000 for a month and for subjects like math and physics and biology, it can be double of this amount, because it is the market which has determined this monetary figure based on a supply of good teachers and the demand of the students, who want a good education. Teachers in Pakistan can be blamed for selling out, but so should the government be blamed for neglecting them and not even financially paying them enough money to live in poverty!

Masadi, you have blamed me for a moral default and you can, but my question is still this: who gave you the right to judge and implement your morals on to a person, about whose situational realities you have no clue? Remember: do not judge others for ye shall not be judged as well! :)

Your morality would suggest that a teacher should strave him/herself and their familes but should not sell out to the elites. I do not agree with such a morality because it is not a morality as much as it is an arrogance worthy of an ubermensch mentality. Morality is an expensive principle in life and not all have the luxury to afford it and those who can, like yourself, should not blame those who cannot not afford it.

Masadi sahib, before you blame a person for a lack of morality or for having a moral default, please ask yourself what circumtances forced them into renouncing their sense of morality and having a moral default? It would be an intstructive lesson, I promise you! :)

Ciao

#36 by masadi on June 3, 2006 9:24pm PT


Fine fine..we`re all ignorant..just answer the simple question..If you were publishing your article in the land of Islam`s holiest shrines, would the title end with a question mark or a period? Would you even dare to question the amazingness of the koran - even in the title- if you were publishing this in saudi arabia?


My comments, unlike yours are not based on whim, I have read several studies on this media, based upon the products that it puts out.


And we should take your word for this why?

face it comrade...you`re in the terminal stages of AIDS(America Is Doomed Syndrome)..you really shouldn`t have engaged in unprotected group mental intercourse with islamists, white liberals and third world leftists whose only claim to fame is a book that won an award even when it wasn`t read by a large number of her countrymen..

#37, I do not see how my conclusion about corporatized education in the US, what CW Mills alluded to as well is different than what you are writing, even though in the US, this fitting-in into the status quo is prefected a lot more whereas in Pakistan it is still a bit feudal, and democratic schools of the kind that Mills mentions have not arisen to make it all encompassing. My disagreement with you is on the moral default, that things can be no different, similar to your default in that war article. In my opinion, moreso than anything else, this rape of the world by the elite, where education has been whored as well, is partly due to the moral default of the intellectuals, who work for these elite as hired hands and easily default to the status quo

#38, I mentioned nothing about Islamiat or Islamic education, neither did I recommend it, nor talk against it, my point was totally different. While condeming an ideologically guided education, we should not look past the harms of corporatized education- that was my simple point.

Re # 32: with all due respect, I believe u are claiming that there is nothing wrong with teaching Islamic studies without taking into account the situation of the ‘teaching’ taking place in Pakistani institutes. The question is not to teach or not teach religion but how proper a teaching of religion is being taking place in Pakistan. the article points out the problems.
Forgive me, I am unable to link the downfalls of usa’s education policy with those of ours.
And I am amazed that you can call the Pakistani ppl a conscious nation.

re: masadi # 36

I will restrict my comments to Pakistani education, as does the article, and I will not comment on American society and its media control over the nature of education.

Education in Pakistan is pursued with the aim of getting a job and not necessarily for the sake of becoming enlightened or better educated. Education in Pakistan is also a business profession, with illegal degrees being sold; with educational institutions of dubious quality hawking knowledge and with teachers, selling their intellect to the highest bidder. Education in Pakistan is not free from any of those ``contraints``, which you have mentioned in regard to the American society.

In today`s economically competive world, education cannot remain outside the needs and requirements of a market economy and educational institutions, in Pakistan and in United States as else where, have to seek financial funding to maintain their standards of education and to offer new courses. Education and the modern day school system was the off-shoot of the Industrial Revolution, when the factory owners decided they needed a disciplined work force, with basic literacy levels, which could operate the machines, follow directions and obey instructions. The function of education, thus, was not to produce brillance but to innoculate obedience in its students and it did so, quite successfully. Hence, your complaints against the corporate nature of the education, not withstanding, the fact remains that modern education is about making a living and not becoming a philosopher-king in the legacy of any Platoian traditions.

In Pakistan, for example, education is the pathway to prospersity and social respect and Pakistani youth see in education a leverage to pry themselves into a better future and they really do not care a whit about how education is compromised; by corporations or government or by media. The society wants an uniform product and in this sense, this society`s requirement is not that different from a religious requirement, which also mandates a ``uniformity of product``.

I have read studies on the issue, too, and even though I may agree with their conclusion, I still believe that their intellectual utopianism and even their honesty is no match for the reality, because in the real world; money matters and Bravo-Sierra takes a long walk off a short pier!

Ciao

#30, #33, that is quite an ignorant point by Arjun. Read #25 again, and try to understand the reality of the corporate media. As far as credential checking is concerned, even based upon ideology, that media more than anything that exists in developing countries has bureaucratized that control, through a series of filters that ensure a uniform product. State control is quite ineffective and blatantly visible, manipulation of the kind practiced by the corporate media, works at a deeper level and is more effective. Somehow you both don`t seem to grasp this. My comments, unlike yours are not based on whim, I have read several studies on this media, based upon the products that it puts out.

This is why Pakiland lags so far behind...It`s the self-deluded mentality with a generous topping of ``If the inferior hindoos can do it surely we pakis can do it better``

It took 40+ years before the investments in the IITs paid off for India(not for America)...

Of course, Pakiland`s 30 year investment in jihadi indoctrination is paying off too..

Musharraf markets Pakistan at Silicon Valley conference

He said that Pakistan was setting up nine high-tech engineering and science and technology universities of international standard with the help of advanced countries that would produce professionals of high calibre to push industrial development on fast-track basis.

Re: # 32
``that has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make``...

EXACTLY Mian Masadi.

In other words in response to the criticism of education in Pakistan, you posted
comments not directly relevant to the discussion here. Why blame kff?


You may have some valid concerns on the state of affairs in American soceity..
the problems described in this article are concerned with problems at a far
deeper, more serious....at basic level...

how are you being helpful by simply parroting out the the bad things in the US?