The Long War: Rethinking American Options in the War on Terror

#68 tahmed writes <<< You can can ignore the historical fact that slavery - slavery was a well established part of muslim societies for over a thousand years until the west pressured the ottoman caliph into declaring it illegal. And that this was done over the objections of the maulvis who considered slavery to be a part of Islam and attempts at changing it to be an assault on Islam. But you cannot change it. >>>

Slavery was a part of Western society long before those Islamists you talk about, and it was not as much a part of the economy of Muslim societies as it became later under the colonials and their intercontinental slave trade- those are the facts, why those colonials started abolishing it later has more to do with economics than with morality. Modern racism is also linked to Western slavery and not to Islamic slavery. And like I mentioned, if morality was the reason they would not have kept indentured servitude and treated factory workers the way they did, not much better than slaves, and in many ways more profitable to exploit.

You are cherrypicking detached portions of history to show those you worship in a good light when they plundered, pillaged and insitutionalized trade in human flesh. There is nothing in the Quran that encourages either enslaving people or trading slaves, there is everything in there that encourages freeing slaves as one of the greatest goods a person can do, marrying your slaves as a path to freedom, treating them as family etc. Why it didn`t outright abolish slavery has more to do with institutional adjustment from a society that perviously had slaves as dependents, gradual abolition in the form the Quran is suggesting is much more humane than leaving people to fend for themselves without alternatives, and it is much more functional as well in status adjustment. Look at the condition of African Americans in the US, their status and their economic condition in this society, that abandoned them after claiming to fight a civil war over slavery (again it wasn`t fought for moral reasons but economic ones), was little better than it was under slavery.

Re: # 70

bj,

..... even though we agree on this issue, let`s not drag poor jinnah into it - he had as much to do with iraq as that half-naked charlatan who has managed to hoodwink seemingly intelligent people with his devious shenanigans ........ get over it before you end up as a sad caricature of masadi ..........

``WASHINGTON, DC, United States (UPI) -- The killing of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi may lead to a profound change in the nature of the Iraqi insurgency. Far more U.S. soldiers may die as a result and far fewer Iraqi civilians.

That is because Zarqawi was the driving force behind the ferocious continuing massacres of Iraqi civilians, especially Shiites, that have been the main strategic thrust of the insurgency over the past six months. But even among the broad, complex and ever-shifting alliance of insurgent groups, Zarqawi`s ferocious tactics toward fellow Muslims had caused major splits and provoked a great deal of internal criticism.``(Martin Sief)

not a blessing in disguise or out of disguise....

#65: GWB is a good man. He is not a charlatan like many individuals on this site who pretend to not see the bigotry of Jinnah, many individuals here who think of the Kashmiri killers as “freedom fighters”, many individuals here who advocate the use of terrorist techniques as a legitimate tool for Pakistan to conduct in India, and the countless many individuals here who think that merging into one homogeneous “ummah” will solve all the problems of Muslims in this world and in the hereafter, and the many mullah-inspired characters who think that making the world Muslim will do the same for the world at large and who insist on solving the “problem” of being non-Muslim – through their preferred approach of “eliminating” the “problem”. Anybody who followed the O.J. Simpson trial of a decade ago would remember how survey after survey kept on showing that the majority of American blacks continued to believe that he was “framed” – all the scientific DNA evidence and other supporting evidence, including his attempts to flee, notwithstanding! It is the only outcome likely when one’s objectivity and one’s way of looking at things is held hostage to just ONE aspect of one’s existence – in case of OJ trial it was the experience of being black! In case of the Iraq war, it is the experience of being Muslim – plain and simple! Therefore, the bitter truth is and has always been – is that the articulation of ideas that the esteemed author here refers to – it is of limited value in the Middle East and in those parts of world where terror is endemic, including Pakistan, and especially Pakistan where terror has been legitimized through repeated use by its establishment – and most people who live in those places CHOOSE to believe what they choose to believe. As far as the laws of thermodynamics are concerned – it is a well known fact that ALL real systems are open systems. The minds of mullahs and ideologues are perhaps the only closed systems in the universe and they do not represent real systems. And far be for this interactor to emulate the class acts of such greats and such original molecules of gas as H₂ and T₃₂! GWB is a good man, he is right on the Iraq issue and he is an honest man, he has always told the US population what the war on terrorism is all about, he has never tried to hide that this war will be a long and protracted war. All wars are chaotic and prone to aberrations. The real enemies of the Iraqi people are those who are trying to damage the Iraqi infrastructure and trying to kill Iraqi civilians as those people try to stand on their own feet and go about trying to earn a living. The designs of such true enemies of Iraq shall be defeated – there is absolutely no doubts about it!

nhk: welcome back and hope you have been well.

while i agree with what you say, that will fix the symptom but not the underlying problems. We must have the Rule of Law in society, rather than the Rule of Martial Law (de facto or de jure), before the symptoms start to disappear.

masadi: As zeemax and hamidm would put it, it is totally non-utilitatarian to ignore facts. :-)

You can can ignore the historical fact that slavery - slavery was a well established part of muslim societies for over a thousand years until the west pressured the ottoman caliph into declaring it illegal. And that this was done over the objections of the maulvis who considered slavery to be a part of Islam and attempts at changing it to be an assault on Islam. But you cannot change it.


he Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it

-- Omar Khayyam

Re#64: You are to be commended on your clarity of thoughts regarding the issue of terrorism – a rather rare commodity in these waters! Compassion is a part of human nature – for all humans – but its misapplication to fanatics has throughout history mostly encouraged them and simply prolonged the pain and suffering of their victims. It was true in the case of the Jewish people just before the Holocaust and in countless other instances. I am glad GWB has shown the moral fiber to deal with the terrorism issue in a consistent way – come what may politically – which is also a rare commodity among politicians.

The newest democracy in the world...delivered by President Bush, sustained by torture chambers, Abu Gharaib, Haditha and there is more to come...Yes! tail dekho or tail ki dhar dekho...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/
2006/06/15/AR2006061502180_2.html

`` On Saturday, a group of parliament members paid a surprise visit to a detention facility run by the Interior Ministry in Baqubah, north of Baghdad. ``We have found terrible violations of the law,`` said Muhammed al-Dayni, a Sunni parliament member who said as many as 120 detainees were packed into a 35-by-20-foot cell. ``They told us that they`ve been raped,`` Dayni said. ``Their families were called in and tortured to force the detainees to testify against other people.``

``The detention facilities of the ministries of Defense and Interior are places for the most brutal human rights abuse,`` he added.

Jonathan Finer and Ellen Knickmeyer also report:

``Inmates in another photo clustered around chains hung from the middle of one of the crowded cells. The chains were used to hoist prisoners by their bound hands, Zobaie said. The practice, noted frequently in inspection reports of Interior Ministry detention centers, often results in the dislocation of prisoners` shoulders.

Ninety percent of the men crowded into Interior Ministry detention centers are Sunni Arabs, Zobaie said. He called treatment in the Interior Ministry prisons ``inhumane`` and indicated it still was less than certain whether the Defense and Interior ministries would follow through on their agreement to turn over the inmates to the Justice Ministry. ``Hopefully, they will,`` he said.``

People should know what they are supporting. The idea that the US is in Iraq to uphold some human rights has long gone down the tube. All we have now are cover ups by the Bush Admin and they all go thru many abu ghariabs and Hadithas.

Re: #62, bjkumar:

Never before in my short time on Chowk have I read such a pathetically meaningless post as bjkumar`s (hamidm & tahmed are tied for a close second). On the other thread he was trying to use the laws of thermodynamics to try to prove that there is no global warming, which produced a lot of and hysterical laughter, and now here he quotes GWB`s old tales, ones that GWB himself is trying to run away from. These lies of this proposed new long protracted ``cold war``, with a new ``pearl harbor`` as starter had nothing to do with Iraq, it was linked with it by a farce; it must be an act of poetic justice that what was constructed for deception purposes has turned into a nightmare for US forces in Iraq because regardless of these official platitutes those that forumlated the Iraq war policy did not expect such massive resistance.

HE writes <<< The bitter truth is and has always been – is that the articulation of ideas that you refer to –is of limited value in the Middle East and those parts of world where terror has been endemic, including Pakistan – and most people who live there CHOOSE to believe what they choose to believe >>>

Really, and might we ask to see your research methodology on how you arrived at this magnanimous conclusion regarding Muslims, maybe a look at the sampling of historical events, where such ``articulation` by the West has been heeded? The colonials were very successful in the ``articulation of ideas`` when they inspired those Arabs to ferment a rebellion against the Ottomons, they were very articulate when they broke their promise with those Arabs and forced a haphazard colonized division on them, they were further extremely articulate when they implanted Israel in their midst, they show great articulation when they launch attacks on one arab country from another, or station occupation troops sanctioned by the rulers, further, they are extremely articulate when they dominate the oil industry in that region, even more articulate when they sell billions every year in arms to those rulers, Saudi Arabia alone spends $25 billion in Arms for its `rat fart` military most going to the US. Or maybe that has something to do with the law of thermodynamics ?

bjkumar writes

<<< Why don’t the vast, teeming masses of Muslims rise and kick out their unsavory characters and claim for themselves their dignity, and human treatment from those who rule their minds? Why, why? >>>

Because those that dominate their political/economic/military institutions, fed by the neo-colonials, like ghetto lords, have too much power and too much to lose. Equal robbing of the masses is going on in the US as well, look at the disparity in wealth ownership and a pathetic gini coefficient. Why does not the US public rise up and break the two party monopoly, circumscribed by wealth and power? For much the same reasons, except in their case no external slave-master, ghetto constructor has them under the boot.

HE writes <<< The plain fact is that this war is not about public relations and has never been so. >>>

Read that rehashed speech again, from beginning to end it is all a public relations stunt for domestic consumption Public relations have always been an important part of US war mongering` they have justified all kinds of barbarism, including the nuking of civilian cities, using lies and similar pr stunts.

You pathetic understanding of global events and history is quite a disgrace, your parents, at this moment must be quite ashamed at all the time and money they`ve wasted on your ``education`` which turned out to be mere fermenting of bigotry and rehashing of the speeches of GWB.

F R Khan

Being very busy, I have not gone through the article. But I have read some posts to get the jist.

If you are in any way showing compassion for going after the religious fanatics, please do not.

Religious fanatics could be from any faith. Unfortunately, presently Islam has the dubious distinction of producing the most.

The clear thinking of Bush & Australian PM is admirable. No compromise at all.

They are fighting for decent persons like you. There is no philosophy here. If a snake is not killed, it will kill you.

Zero tolerance is the answer. No arguements and logic. They have a preconceived set agenda for terrorrizing the week and timid.

best wishes

nhk

Hamidm Mian:

In Hindi there is a saying - ``Tail (oil) nahin, tail ki dhar dekho``. Many people, including Massadi Mian, cannot understand what it means. Why waste time with them?

Anil

Author, this article rests on some highly faulty premises – including the premise that the USA expected a conventional war. Nothing can be further from the reality. Please note the following statement (made by the US President on September 20, 2001 – in his speech to the U.S. Congress.)

“We will direct every resource at our command -- every means of diplomacy, every tool of intelligence, every instrument of law enforcement, every financial influence, and every necessary weapon of war -- to the destruction and to the defeat of the global terror network. Now, this war will not be like the war against Iraq a decade ago, with a decisive liberation of territory and a swift conclusion. It will not look like the air war above Kosovo two years ago, where no ground troops were used and not a single American was lost in combat. Our response involves far more than instant retaliation and isolated strikes. Americans should not expect one battle, but a lengthy campaign unlike any other we have ever seen. It may include dramatic strikes visible on TV and covert operations secret even in success. We will starve terrorists of funding, turn them one against another, drive them from place to place until there is no refuge or no rest. And we will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism. Every nation in every region now has a decision to make: Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists. From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime. Our nation has been put on notice, we`re not immune from attack. We will take defensive measures against terrorism to protect Americans.”

[The political failure of the United States to articulate the reason that the war was against the political terrorism of a militant interpretation/version of Islam…]

The bitter truth is and has always been – is that the articulation of ideas that you refer to –is of limited value in the Middle East and those parts of world where terror has been endemic, including Pakistan – and most people who live there CHOOSE to believe what they choose to believe. Take Mushy for example – an old hand in the game of terror and as late as 2001 fully chock-sure of his terror-based strategy. Would anything other than that call from Mr. Powell work on such individuals and those who prop such individuals? “A war of public relations through the media” is essentially what you seem to be alluding to – but it would only bring on board the few educated folks who open up a bit of their minds. Most such people are already on board – but in fact they carry very little weight one way or other.

[Not only did the United States fail to comprehend the nature of Islam; as a religion; as a political idea; as a sense of a cultural identification and as code of ethics for the vast majority of the Muslims, but it also did not truly grasp the ideological reasons for the attacks of September 11, 2001.]

Forgive me for saying this, but over time immemorial – the Muslim “intelligentsia” has consistently been hypocritical – by covering up the unsavory aspects and more importantly, unsavory ACTS of those who claim to follow its religion (perhaps it is itself driven by fear) – and by placing the blame on the victims instead! The talk of “ideology” makes little sense when all the “ideas” seem to come out of the barrel of a gun – when they are not coming off the sharp blade of knife!

[…the French statesman, Charles DeGaulle, used refer to as “the strength of the weak”.]

Again, forgive my being blunt – those were cowardly attacks – those were unconscionable attacks – the attackers were evil and their supporters and promoters of the world are heinous creatures – whether you call them “good” Muslims or otherwise – and their wishy-washy apologists, including the French leaders who did so profusely, are utterly beneath contempt!

Let me quote again from GWB:

“On September the 11th, enemies of freedom committed an act of war against our country. Americans have known wars, but for the past 136 years they have been wars on foreign soil, except for one Sunday in 1941. Americans have known the casualties of war, but not at the center of a great city on a peaceful morning. Americans have known surprise attacks, but never before on thousands of civilians. All of this was brought upon us in a single day, and night fell on a different world, a world where freedom itself is under attack.”

[The United States can be successful in this war if and when it succeeds in convincing the majority of the people in the Muslim and Arab nations of the inherent superiority and universality of its ideas over those espoused by militant Islamic groups ….]

The plain fact is that this war is not about public relations and has never been so.

[This idea of proving the commitment of the United States towards the welfare of the people in Arab and Muslim nations….]

The United States is run by people who are elected by the United States people and they wish the Arab and Muslim nations’ populations well – but we don’t OWE them nothing – and we certainly will never take seriously the attempts to get pinned with blame for the missing welfare and rights of those individuals – when they themselves seem to be least willing to lift a finger to help themselves. Why don’t the vast, teeming masses of Muslims rise and kick out their unsavory characters and claim for themselves their dignity, and human treatment from those who rule their minds? Why, why?

[…. for this policy to be successful, it will require the long term political support of all major United States’ political parties, groups and NGOs and such a policy will have to be consistent, which would suggest that this emerging policy rubric should be guided by considerations of politics and not by the necessity of military ad hocism,….]

This is old game – if the military force is beating up terror then it is advised to withdraw to “win those hearts and minds” – and if it withdraws, well – that becomes a celebration of the “victory of the freedom fighters”!

What really needs to be done is to weaken the forces of terror sufficiently (they will never disappear 100 percent!) so that (1) the general population sees the futility of their approach and they lose the “admiration” that all bullies enjoy among gawking simple-minded kids, (2) the elections can take place without coercion in a free and fair manner, (3) a representative government gets formed and can function without being afraid of a coup or assassination, (4) it can build up the necessary security forces and eventually (5) the necessary infrastructure. We are currently in the third step.

[The asymmetrical military superiority of the United States actually helps to foster a sense of grievance in the Arab and Muslim societies, which groups like Al-Qaeda employ to continually justify their armed struggle against the United States.]

Excuse me – such groups do no such thing! They simply kill those who disagree with them!

[It is hoped that the United States will follow a policy option, which will in the words of President John F. Kennedy prevent the fruits of victory from turning into ashes.]

Isn’t that the guy who gave us the Bay of Pigs?!

tahmed in #50 <<< in the 19th century , the west ended human slavery .....in the 18th and 20th centuries , the west ended the Rule of Kings and introduced democracy to the world. >>>

We expect a supporter of colonization, wholesale enslavement of people, to come up with this prepostrous reading of history. The West did not end human slavery, they merely changed its form when it was economically feasible for them. They were the ones that perfected the trade in human flesh to levels that no mullah could match, with barbarism in the treatment of slaves that no Mullah could match. Maybe you have forgotten about the Atlantic Slave Trade. The west were pioneers in linking slavery with race and when they started opposing it, they did not do away with indentured servitude which was just as viscious, or the condition of factory workers, ground to the bone, captured well by Marx and other writers.

Ending rule by kings by wholesale invasion and occupation and that translates as promoting democracy to tahmed. The West has supported tyrannous kings, like the Shah of Iran when it suited them and when it didn`t they have supported your mullah friends while using democracy as slogan. The hypocisy of these Western elite is unsurpassed in global history. The ideals coming out of the enlightenment, by virtue of the intellectuals were abandoned by the West itself very early on. If you have to praise the West, praise the intellectuals not the thugs and the elite that perverted all ideals of freedom, democracy and rationality for their perverse ends. The Mullah and the US elite (and older colonial elite) have followed the same path in the abandonment of those ideals, which were espoused in the Quran long before these A.H`s perverted them and the Western intellectuals ``invented`` them.

Hamidm writes <<< .......... all you have to do is compile masadi`s posts and you will realize the truth in the statement that these people are truly driven by their hatred of american values .......... >>>

American values are the not the same as ``corporate values`` or the values espoused by the American elite. American ``values`` are not monolithic and they certainly have not chosen either you or the sob Bush as their defender.

Re: # 56


heck no,

...... th painting has aesthetic value and sometimes when you are drunk you can talk to it ! .......... also, nice paintings appreciate in value and making money is a good thing because you can spend it for the greater good only if you have it in the first place ............. however, if it one of those eyesores with meaningless squiggles in arabic or pictures of the grand mosque, a shoe might be a better replacement .........

...... zeemax, i find all this hand wringing over iraq rather pointless because the deed is done and it was a good deed indeed ......... the iraqi people, that is the vast majority other than the jihadis and the baathist dead-enders, will be much better off in the long run and in fifty years or so we should see statues of george bush all over baghdad and basra ....... however, knowing the twisted muslim psyche, they will probably tear down the statues in another ten just as they removed queen victoria`s statue from the mall in pindi ............ i would like to get inside a real muslim`s head to see what goes on inside - it is baffling !............ many many years ago a friend of mine at uet under the influence of bhang and mandies declared, `` jo kaum zameen par baeth kar payshab karti hay, woh kabhi taraki nahin kar sakti !`` ........... maybe he was right ....

nasah: Forget about Burbank or the US or indeed the rest of the ``non-muslim`` nations, which will survive and prosper regardless of what these islamists do. The fact is that the damage that islamists do to ``fellow`` muslims is something very real and nothing to joke about.

To illustrate what I am saying, here are two news items from today`s Dawn that might help you realize that instead of wagging fingers at the US from an an ivory tower, you should be thanking the US for fighting battles that muslims would have fought themselves (instead of wagging fingers at the US) if they used their brains rather than their emotions.

Mob kills teacher, beats cleric for alleged blasphemy in Pakistan
MULTAN, Pakistan, June 16, 2006 (AFP) A mob beat a teacher to death when he tried to help a cleric in a row over the alleged desecration of the holy Quran, a local police chief said Friday. The prayer leader was attacked by more than 1,000 people at Hasilpur town in central Punjab province after claims that he burned pages from an old copy of the holy book near a drain, an official said. ``A retired school teacher came in and tried to save the cleric but he was also severely beaten by the mob and later died in hospital,`` he said. Both victims belonged to the Jamaat-ud-Dawa party, he added. A crowd later also attacked a police vehicle and broke its windscreen when it tried to rescue the two men. Security has been beefed up in the area and police have registered a case against the cleric under the country`s blasphemy law and a separate case against unknown people for murdering the school teacher.(Posted @ 19:26 PST)

Gunmen kill Pakistani women aid workers, daughters
PARACHINAR, Pakistan, June 16 (Reuters) Gunmen shot dead two Pakistani women aid workers and two daughters of one of the women on Friday in a remote area near the Afghan border, a government official said. The two woman ran a community centre that taught village women vocational skills in the Orakzai tribal area. ``There has been opposition to NGOs in the area,`` said a district government official. The gunmen fired through a window of the community centre, killing the two women and the two girls, the official added. (Posted @ 14:46 PST)