Baptism of Jesus Christ

#15 CONTINUED

And the day Muslims start believing/saying that the messages as given in Islam are meant only for Muslims and not for the enitire mankind, I tell you, all conflicts between Muslims and Non-muslims will come to an end.

Regards.

#15 URSTRULY

I appreciate your reply, though I may beg to differ in some aspects particularly related to Islam.

Let me comment para wise

Para 1 `` As I wrote earlier........the nature of man``.
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Ok.Agreed.

Para 2 `` You might find it interesting ........ essentially means no God.``
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Here you are silent on one of the most important and rather the very first step of Islam, as reveled in Koran and that is ``Lailah illalah Mohammed ur rusul Allah`` i.e ``nobody has right to be worshipped other than Allah and Mohammed is his Messenger.``.

Now you have to agree here that Islam, as we understand it, has two what you can call as Tieing points One is Allah and another one is Prophet Mohammed. Let us say Allah is the monotheist God which anybody can accept. But what about Prophet Mohammed.

To clarify further, let me say that as a Hindu ,I accept that Hinduism is a part of Islam as far as religion is concerned. Then what about Prophet Mohammed?? If I say that I accept Allah but not Prophet Mohammed as his messenger, then we wre back to the square one i.e. Hinduism and Islam are separate religions though, a very important though here, Allah of Islam and Ishwar of Hinduism may be the same(and they are, I feel).

You say that ``every monothiest is a Muslim``. No. Muslim is a one who may be monotheist by practice but he believes Prophet Mohammed as a messenger of Allah. Any other person who may be a monotheist but does not believe Prophet Mohammed to be God`s messenger CANNOT BE TERMED AS A MUSLIM, I feel.

Para 3 ``This belief in One God....that Mohammad (pbuh) has paved.``
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Sorry, I beg to differ. There are many aspects of Koran i.e the path paved by Prophet Mohammed in which Muslims themselves differ or have different opinions. The two most common are the concept of Jehad and Status of Women. Some Muslims believe that Jehad is to undertaken at certain situations whereas some believe that Jehad is one of the duties of Muslims. Similar is the case of Women. Prophet Mohammed gave his messages in Hadith for Arabs only. he was not talking about humanity as a whole, which is very clear from the messages itself. There should be no doubt it. Prophet Mohammed was reforming those religions which were prevalent at that point of time in Arabia. To say that Prophet Mohammed was talking about all mankind would be a generalisation, I feel.

Para 4 ``Let me explain this with an example.....ingenuity of Quran is that once you believe in Oneness of Allah, this becomes the inevitable logical outcome. ``

Again there are two points. One is the belief in One God call Him Allah, God or whatever. There is no conflict in it, I feel. But when you come one step lower i.e. the messages of that One God, the conflict starts. Let us for example say that Moses, Jesus, Rama, Krishna, Buddha and Prophet Mohammed were all part and parcel of One God i.e. Allah. Then why only the messages given to Prophet Mohammed are to be believed and why not messages given to/by Moses, Christ, Rama, Krishna and Buddha????

The problem, to my mind, between Muslims and Non-Muslims is this only. Non-muslims believe that Koran/Islam is just one of the many messages received by mankind from time to time and the belief of these messages is one`s choice. But Muslims say that there message is the final message and it supercedes all messages given earlier and Islam is the final religion.

Re: # 14

Youu write:

``How can you claim that the Islam was THE FIRST religion of this Planet. Only because Koran says so??? ``

and

`` Because then essentially all religions are Islam and Islam is all religions.``

As I wrote earlier, the human intellectual development has been gradual. Where we are at today, intellectually, we couldn`t even imagine it 200 or 500 years ago. If we extend this knowledge and apply the logic to the first homosapien, Adam, who was the first to question who he was and where did he come from. The answer that he might have gotten would have been extremely simple. The message to him would have been merely that there is One God who created you and you will return back to him. At that stage man, would have not established societies, nor he would have been intellectually capable to grasp the concepts of morality. Slowly, as the humanity progressed, and man developed intellectually, he was given moral instructions at a level where he could understand them. From non-religious anthropological point of view those were the days, and years when human nature was in its formative stages. By human nature I mean those apsects of human behavior which are controlled by biological or genetic make up. For example, a man 10,000 years ago must disliked untruth and so does he today. This was not the learned behavior, it was genetic. There are other human traits such as jealousy, competitiveness, combatativeness, will to survive, and feeling sad upon the misery of other, which are not learned behaviors but they are genetically ingrained in us. Is there a human being in history of mankind who can claim that he had never been jealous. No; because it is impossible to fight genetic programming. So when I say that Islam is the first and last religion of this planet, I mean that it is the religion that addresses the nature of man.

You might find it interesting that at various places in Qura`n, it refers to Jews and Christians with the Arabic word ``Muslim``, which literally means one who submitts to One God. Qura`n also refers to people and societies that existed before Christians and Jews, and belived in Monotheism as ``Muslims``. These societies are either known but perished because of some reason, such as natural disasters or they still exist today but are unknown. Without much certainty we may call Monotheist Hindus as those Muslims who survived but are not known by this name. So in a nutshell, every Monotheist is basically a Muslim. By this logic the first homo sapien who was able to intellectually concieve the question ``Who craeted me?`` and deduced the answer that ``One God Created me`` was the Muslim. This basically divides humanity in two groups beleivers (One God) and non-believers (i.e. No God, or many Gods, which (polytheism) essentially means no God).

This belief in One God is the destination or objective of the human existence. It satisfy the one aspect of human inquisitive nature. The second part is to harness the human nature aspect and direct it to a path, which leads you to this destination. The ingenuity and boldness with which Qura`n declares all Monotheists to be the Muslims is that once this message (of Monotheism) is understood completely it is impossible not to follow the path that Mohammad (pbuh) has paved.

Let me explain this with an example. In Qura`n, it discusses in detail what made early surviving Muslims to go astray. For example, the charge against Jews is that they changed their religion into a racial fraternity. In other words a Jew can be a person who is born Jew. Islam rejects this racism and says that if Monotheism is the purpose of human existence then being a Jew becomes not only irrelevant but leads human beings astray from the path that leads to the destination of Monotheism. Jews believe that they are salvaged by just being Jew. They stopped delivering this message (Monotheism) to fellow human beings thus erecting Jewery as a potential god that restricts other human beings to reach True God. In order to correct this, Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) established the path of equality of mankind; where no human being has precedence over the other because of the accident of their birth, their color, their language, or any other aspect that divides humanity today. The ingenuity of Quran is that once you believe in Oneness of Allah, this becomes the inevitable logical outcome.

#11 URSTRULY

Your arote :-

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It is one of the core Muslim beliefs that God has sent close to 124,000 prophets and messengers to every nation or community on this planet who delivered the message of Monotheism to the people. This chain of Prophet ends at Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) since everything that human beings needed to know about their Creator, our relationship to Him, and that between us has been explained through the books and practically through the lives of the Prophets. All the aspects of human nature have thus been addressed and revealed to human beings. This makes Islam the first and last religion of this planet.
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How can you claim that the Islam was THE FIRST religion of this Planet. Only because Koran says so??? Assumng that the God who was giving convenants to Moses was the same who made revelations to Prophet Mohammed, then whether he gave wrong messages to Moses?? And if the messages given to Moses were right, what was the need to give fresh messages to Prophet Mohammed?? OK, if you say that the messages given to Moses by God were correct, but people down the line misinterpreted and misinterpreted it(which is the basis of revelation of Koran), then you have to agree that atleast the Book Of Genesis is correct. It is then another matter that the followers of Genesis has made a mockery of it.

You say that ``It is one of the core Muslim beliefs that God has sent close to 124,000 prophets and messengers to every nation or community on this planet who delivered the message of Monotheism to the people``. By this statement, dont you feel that God is crazy or a poor communicator that he cant His message in a single GO. He has to send 124,000 Prophets and Messengers to give His message without realising that that even if these prophets and messengers err to the extent of 1%, the message between the first and the last prophet/messenger will be diamterically opposite.

Another point here is the belief that God has to send prophets/messengers to give His messages. What is the logic here?? If God at all wants to give His message then why he cant give on His own. That way the Book of Genesis is more trustworthy where God gave His messages directly to Moses.

You say that Islam is the final version of all the messages that were sent earlier then where is the question of Jehad and Kaffir??? Because then essentially all religions are Islam and Islam is all religions.

In my final analysis, though it is correct that there can be only ONE GOD or there is no God at all, but what has been told in different religions, the different messages, the different rituals and practices, depends upon one`s choice.

If you believe in the messages of Koran ,thats your choice and if I dont believe in those messages, its my choice. You cant generalise the things that all the Prophets/ Messengers/ Incarnations were ultimately laying foundations of the Final Religion which is Islam and which was to be reveled by Allah or God himself to Prophet Mohammed at some point of time.

Atleast I dont believe in that.

Dear all
The concept of “virgin birth” is not a knew concept. It has been used in primitive cultures of “North American Indians”. Religious concepts like these might make some sense if taken metaphorically not literally. Likewise when Jesus talks about “kingdom of God” it does not mean a kingdomon of this earth but rather , a place in the spiritual realm. To me, this seems to be the only way to make some sense of religious concepts. Otherwise how on earth can someone with right senses and reason believe in the concept of Virgin birth. Concepts like these are termed as “elementary concept” which were common “folk concept” in the ancient world.

Baptism simply means initiation.....what sin is an infant/child being washed of?!

as they say in punjabi ``khanba they kaan banaanay``.......mountain out of a mole hill.

These above mentioned rituals were also plaigarized/copied by muslims/Islam in one form or another.


Read Prophet of Doom website for details.

#9

I do not understand your question but I will try. As far as the scrutiny of Quran is concerned, probably, there is no other book in the history of mankind that has been so rigorously scrutinized by Muslims and non-Muslims alike. In the present days, as a matter of fact, a whole industry has came into existence whose only purpose is to scrutinize this book with sole purpose of monetary gains.

It is one of the core Muslim beliefs that God has sent close to 124,000 prophets and messengers to every nation or community on this planet who delivered the message of Monotheism to the people. This chain of Prophet ends at Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) since everything that human beings needed to know about their Creator, our relationship to Him, and that between us has been explained through the books and practically through the lives of the Prophets. All the aspects of human nature have thus been addressed and revealed to human beings. This makes Islam the first and last religion of this planet.

It is also a fact of nature that the intellectual development of human beings on this planet has not happened uniformally all around. In this day of space exploration and what not there are pygmies living elsewhere who have not yet completely learned to cover themselves. So in my opinion, the message Of Monotheism to them must be in the simplest and most rudimentary form whereas for other nations it was in quite refined form. For example, the teachings of Zurthustra, basically resemble the teachings of Abrahamic religions and quite surprisingly the Monotheist message in Hinduism and associated concepts of sins, heaven, and hell are identical to its counterparts. Hence Qura`n elaborates that it is not the path that is important, it is the destination.

Re: # 7
Mohammad:
By the way one of her books is banned in Malaysia by the government.

You have to be a bit careful about what Bishop Spong would say.. I have actually attended one of his talks and read his book. He is a very angry man and is very critical of certain things in Christianity. Karen Armstrong is a jolly good woman- a good popular talker. Her knowledge outside Abrahamic faiths is so so.

Anyway, she is very popular author and gets enough royalities ,even more than what Chopra`s ! I don`t think she needs to contribute to 401K!

Kamath

Dear Urstruly :
Re: # 4
You say,``..In the Chapter 2, The Heifer, Qura`n has explicitly addressed the issue of religious chauvinism of any religion including Islam and it has shown mankind the right way to salvation....``. This makes me think!

Do you think the real Mohammed was aware that there were other faiths during his life time. If he knew, I am sure, he would have inserted additional verses to that affect. That has made millions on earth that all scriptures and holy books have to be reviewed. Remember the holiest of the books for Christians was actually examined, and actually rewritten during King James time.

Do you think Quran might get subjected critical inquiry by scholars some day soon?

Peace
Kamath

Gill Sahib,
All you are doing is distorting christianity with your shallow knowledge and narrow outlook. You may claim to feel normative and value neutral but at what cost. Please go back to where you are best.

Cheerios

Ijaz_gul

Thanks for your comments. I do not claim to be an authority on Christianity or on religion for that matter. At the same time I have not restricted myself to the Internet sources only. I admit I have not come to read the book you had suggested; I might come to read it some day.

Ichaim

I thank you too for your interesting and kind comments. Your comments regarding Karen Armstrong are somewhat tacky. She was a nun in the Society of the Holy Child Jesus for seven years and later wrote a ‘tell-all’ book, “Through the Narrow Gates,” (I haven’t read it. I own a couple of her books. History of God is one and the other is The Battle for God). She taught 19th and 20th century English literature at the University of London. She is the author of some 19 books, all of them on religion and comparative religion.

In her own words:

“I usually describe myself, perhaps flippantly, as a freelance monotheist. I draw sustenance from all three of the faiths of Abraham. I can’t see any one of them as having the monopoly of truth, any one of them as superior to any of the others. Each has its own particular genius and each its own particular pitfalls and Achilles’ heels. But recently, I’ve just written a short life (story) of the Buddha, and I’ve been enthralled by what he has to say about spirituality, about the ultimate, about compassion and about the necessary loss of ego before you can encounter the divine. And all the great traditions are, in my view, saying the same thing in much the same way, despite their surface differences.”

To imply that she hadn’t read the Bible (you wrote, “..but if she had read the Bible she would clearly see…”) or her knowledge of the Bible was deficient is, at the very least, very inaccurate. True, she doesn’t believe like traditional Christians but she has a vast knowledge of the Abrahamic religions.

Likewise, John Shelby Spong is a great scholar of Christianity (of Episcopalian view ); he is a retired bishop of Newark. I respect your beliefs but I wanted to draw attention to non-traditional interpretation and understanding of Christianity.

Wishing you well,

Mohammad Gill

Mr. Gill – respectfully I must cite that both the “scholars” you refer to in the article for explanation of Christianity and baptism are thought by the majority of practicing Christians to be heretics and atheists who are doing much to try and destroy the body of Christ. Therefore you can not possibly understand the concept of Christian baptism as outlined by them – so hopefully I will be able to clarify.

First, I might also clarify that technically baptism is not 100% necessary to accept Christ and “become” Christian. However, the majority of people do take on baptism.
2nd Catholics have a whole different concept of baptism (as the removal of sins and impartation of some special grace received only at that time and no time after) than non-Catholics [who see this as a statement claiming Jesus as their Savior and Lord and thereafter able to apply “grace” to their lives to follow Jesus’ commands through many situations (that non-believers obviously would not receive) - and this should lead to living a holier life and therefore sinning less and less]). It is one of the main splitting points.

Yes, as you state Jesus followed the Jewish tradition for baptism. But there were many meanings to being baptized at that time beyond ceremonial cleansing. One not only was baptized after circumcision but there were also like John many teachers and people were also baptized by a particular teacher/rabbi as a sign they agreed to follow his teachings.

The divine element in Jewish baptism is it is a sign you choose to follow God’s commands. One can not do this and not want to live a holy life, so there is no way that any Jewish baptism was purely secular. The Biblical story clearly presents that Jesus baptism was a sign God used to show people that Jesus was God and sent as the one people should listen to and follow. John told the crowd his message of baptism of repentance was not appropriate for Jesus but they now should follow Jesus because He had come with the greatest message and to baptize people into new life.

Karen Armstrong may think that hearing the voice of God was a regular thing but if she had read the Bible she would clearly see that in fact, in the OT God spoke directly to only few people and mainly prophets and whenever the majority of crowds of people did “see” or “hear” God it was thru thunder or an angel, and they were all awestruck and somewhat terrified because they could not stand in God’s holy presence. God had not talked to His people for hundreds of years (gap in time God sent messages/spoke thru OT prophets and the NT prophets) so a crowd in the NT hearing from God directly was surely a BIG BIG thing and big sign to people about who Jesus is – the Son of God! told directly to them by God – ok, most people didn’t listen or understand back then anymore than they do now, so why lots don’t believe this now is no mystery.

One statement you made is also totally false – any person entering into Christianity undergoes baptism – male or female. Why? Because each person must claim Jesus as Savior and Lord and no one else can do this for you. Your father may “vouche” for you here on earth, but to get into heaven God sees and judges YOUR heart and actions – He created each person with heart mind and soul and no one else has same heart mind and soul so it is you that must convince Him of your sincerity of belief.

Karen Armstrong is also wrong in stating the disciples did not realize Jesus’ divinity while he walked on earth. At the resurrection event of Lazarus Martha proclaimed “I believe you are the Christ, the Son of God who has come into the world.” Notice she was not one of the “12” yet as a follower she knew. Also when Jesus directly asked the 12 “who do you say that I am?” Peter replied “you are the Christ, the Son of the living God!” People who followed him knew Jesus was God from before the foundation of earth and man’s concept of time. Ok, do or can any of us with finite human mind EVER fully understand who Jesus is? Who God is (the triune nature)? Do we always believe or follow 100%? The Bible clearly says we will all only know fully only when “perfection” returns - Jesus is perfection. And when He returns at the end of time He will reveal the truth to all, believers and non-believers will see Him. The Bible also says many that have said “Lord Lord” (were baptized) never really believed or followed Him but thought they could just get baptized and get into heaven that way. This will be the most traumatic moment Jesus when sees each person face to face and reads their true heart mind and soul. And many who were baptized will realize they never fooled Him by some water act so they will not enter eternal life of happiness but be forever banished from His presence - along with many many others who clearly chose to follow other “gods” but not Jesus.

Last I also respectfully suggest that rather than this or any other socalled ``scholarly`` commentaries on God`s word you spend time reading the Bible more intensly and praying for understanding, as I do.

Poor show Gill Sahib. The least you could have done was to have researched deeper. Why rely on the net alone?

I once agian suggest what I did on your essay on Mary Magdalene. Please read the Roman Cathoilic cathechism. For your convenience it also has a good alphabatical index.

Quran`s Take on the Ritual of Baptism


In the Chapter 2, The Heifer, Qura`n has explicitly addressed the issue of religious chauvinism of any religion including Islam and it has shown mankind the right way to salvation. The back ground of the following verses is that everyone among the religions of Christianity, Judaism, Islam claim - and logic can be implied to any religion - that their path is the only path to the Salvation. The Holy Qura`n explains that it is not important which path you follow but it is important where this path leads you to.

In the following verses Qura`n addresses the Christian and Judism chauvinism and defines the righteous destination, and that destination is the Absolute Monotheism. Both Jews and Christians consider Abraham (pbuh) to be the rightly guided one. So Qura`n asks them if everybody agrees on the religion of Abraham (pbuh) then why the schism?:

2:.135

And they say: Be Jews or Christians, you will be on the right course. Say: Nay! (we follow) the religion of Ibrahim, the Truth, and he was not one of the polytheists.



In the next verse Quran explicitly establish the rules of conduct that it is forbidden to distinguish between Prophets whose only message was Monotheism.

2:136 Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Musa and Isa, and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.


In the next verse Allah explicitly establishes that it is destination i.e. Submission to One God that is important and paths to get there become irrelevant as meaningless rituals, in this case the Judiac and Christian ritual of Baptism is being addressed:

2.138
(Our religion i.e Submission to One God is) the Baptism of Allah: And who can baptize better than Allah? And it is He Whom we worship.