Baptism of Jesus Christ
Mohammad Gill July 26, 2006
#33 Posted by Kamath on August 2, 2006 12:44:10 pm
Re: # 32
Unstuly:
Don`t worry. All theistic Faiths have discussed about God and this question long before Islam was born and so there is nothing new to be discovered.
As a matter of fact God was described not in discrete terms but what He is not.
Hindu philosophers explained to the devout in the logical and mystical philosophy. They is used the idea,``Neti, Neti``. It is available to all in great philosophical works known as Upanishads some 3000 yrs ago. Christian mystic Meister Ecck Echhardt used similar methodology ``Nescio, Nesico`` etc. It would take too much time to discuss that here.
The point I am making here is this. Never start with the belief that the path to God is the monopoly of any one or any faith. It was there all the time. like a path overgrown in the jungle. All one has to do clear it and seek it. Human has to practise and not boast about these things.
In the absence of such tolerant mindset, what we will get is bigotry and intolerance.
Good bye
Kamath
Unstuly:
Don`t worry. All theistic Faiths have discussed about God and this question long before Islam was born and so there is nothing new to be discovered.
As a matter of fact God was described not in discrete terms but what He is not.
Hindu philosophers explained to the devout in the logical and mystical philosophy. They is used the idea,``Neti, Neti``. It is available to all in great philosophical works known as Upanishads some 3000 yrs ago. Christian mystic Meister Ecck Echhardt used similar methodology ``Nescio, Nesico`` etc. It would take too much time to discuss that here.
The point I am making here is this. Never start with the belief that the path to God is the monopoly of any one or any faith. It was there all the time. like a path overgrown in the jungle. All one has to do clear it and seek it. Human has to practise and not boast about these things.
In the absence of such tolerant mindset, what we will get is bigotry and intolerance.
Good bye
Kamath
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#32 Posted by Urstruly on August 1, 2006 1:23:04 pm
Kamath
The more I think about it and more I am convinced that human attribute of seeking duality or mutiplicity in Divinity is absolutely a rational effort on part of man and not ingrained in him genetically; as I mentioned in my last few posts that whenever man sets upon finding the meaning of his life he asks ``Who Created Me?``. This sigularity in the nature of his quest thus is ingrained in his genes and not psychy. On the other hand the notions of dualtiy or multiplicity is a product of such reasoning ``If God is so compassionate, then how could he let my toddler son die. So I either He is not compassionate or there must be another one beside Him who lets the bad things happen to me.`` And this reasoning could go on uneding until we end up having millions of gods. And this has actually happened. This outcome thus logically and essentially is akin to the defacto ideal of having no god at all. So a man becomes a prisoner of rituals since he cannot make connection to each one of gods. It is physically and mentally impossible.
Since, Islam is the religion of nature i.e. nature of man. It has addressed this issue of human inquest. According to Allah the purpose of human existence is to pass the test that Divine wants us to take at every breath of our existence. (Every religion in the world has this concept of test in it in one form or the other). So in order to test us He taketh away from us the things or people whom we love dearly but He also giveth us even when we do not deserve any of His blessings; just to test us. Every time we make a choice in life He tests us whether we had our priorities and properieties right. Whether we had our commitments right and strong.
But since humanity has lived for so long with this ``rationalilty (of duality or multiplicity)`` that I mentioned above, that it has become a part of the psyche of a large part of humanity. In order to address this human urge i.e. to invent duality or multiplicity of Divinity, He tells us to try to understand Him through His attributes and since humans cannot help but name the things or phenomenon, these attributes have become Allah`s names. Here is what Allah has to say to address this human trait:
The Banishment, 59:24
He is Allah the Creator, the Maker, the Fashioner; His are the most excellent names; whatever is in the heavens and the earth declares His glory; and He is the Mighty, the Wise.
Just in this verse alone Allah has used 5 of His attributes, i.e. the Creator, the Maker, the Fashioner, the Mighty, and the Wise, to make the point.
I have listed these names or attributes of Allah below. Everyone of these attributes is inherent in human beings as well since He created us in His own image. For example a man can be compassionate (Rehman) at one instance and he could be a humiliator (Al-Muthil) of other people at the some other time. If man has these attributes inherent in him, then is it fair to say that God is so limited to have all these attributes at their best in Him in person at the same time?? Do we really need one god for compassion and another one as a preserver, and third one for wealth, and fourth one for victory in war and ....??
Here are the 99 most famous attributes of Allah; the list goes beyond 99, some of the attributes are not listed:
Allah
Allah, He who has the Godhood which is the power to create the entities.
Ar-Rahmaan
The Compassionate, The Beneficient, The One who has plenty of mercy for the believers and the blasphemers in this world and especially for the believers in the hereafter.
Ar-Raheem
The Merciful, The One who has plenty of mercy for the believers.
Al-Malik
The King, The Sovereign Lord, The One with the complete Dominion, the One Whose Dominion is clear from imperfection.
Al-Quddoos
The Holy, The One who is pure from any imperfection and clear from children and adversaries.
As-Salaam
The Source of Peace, The One who is free from every imperfection.
Al-Mu`min
Guardian of Faith, The One who witnessed for Himself that no one is God but Him. And He witnessed for His believers that they are truthful in their belief that no one is God but Him.
Al-Muhaimin
The Protector, The One who witnesses the saying and deeds of His creatures.
Al-^Azeez
The Mighty, The Strong, The Defeater who is not defeated.
Al-Jabbaar
The Compeller, The One that nothing happens in His Dominion except that which He willed.
Al-Mutakabbir
The Majestic, The One who is clear from the attributes of the creatures and from resembling them.
Al-Khaaliq
The Creator, The One who brings everything from non-existence to existence.
Al-Bari`
The Evolver, The Maker, The Creator who has the Power to turn the entities.
Al-Musawwir
The Fashioner, The One who forms His creatures in different pictures.
Al-Ghaffaar
The Great Forgiver, The Forgiver, The One who forgives the sins of His slaves time and time again.
Al-Qahhaar
The Subduer, The Dominant, The One who has the perfect Power and is not unable over anything.
Al-Wahhaab
The Bestower, The One who is Generous in giving plenty without any return. He is everything that benefits whether Halal or Haram.
Al-Razzaaq
The Sustainer, The Provider.
Al-Fattaah
The Opener, The Reliever, The Judge, The One who opens for His slaves the closed worldy and religious matters.
Al-^Aleem
The All-knowing, The Knowledgeable; The One nothing is absent from His knowledge.
Al-Qaabid
The Constricter, The Retainer, The Withholder, The One who constricts the sustenance by His wisdomand expands and widens it with His Generosity and Mercy.
Al-Baasit
The Expander, The Englarger, The One who constricts the sustenance by His wisdomand expands and widens it with His Generosity and Mercy.
Al-Khaafid
The Abaser, The One who lowers whoever He willed by His Destruction and raises whoever He willed by His Endowment.
Ar-Raafi^
The Exalter, The Elevator, The One who lowers whoever He willed by His Destruction and raises whoever He willed by His Endowment.
Al-Mu^iz
The Honorer, He gives esteem to whoever He willed, hence there is no one to degrade Him; And He degrades whoever He willed, hence there is no one to give Him esteem.
Al-Muthil
The Dishonorer, The Humiliator, He gives esteem to whoever He willed, hence there is no one to degrade Him; And He degrades whoever He willed, hence there is no one to give Him esteem.
As-Samee^
The All-Hearing, The Hearer, The One who Hears all things that are heard by His Eternal Hearing without an ear, instrument or organ.
Al-Baseer
The All-Seeing, The One who Sees all things that are seen by His Eternal Seeing without a pupil or any other instrument.
Al-Hakam
The Judge, He is the Ruler and His judgment is His Word.
Al-^Adl
The Just, The One who is entitled to do what He does.
Al-Lateef
The Subtle One, The Gracious, The One who is kind to His slaves and endows upon them.
Al-Khabeer
The Aware, The One who knows the truth of things.
Al-Haleem
The Forebearing, The Clement, The One who delays the punishment for those who deserve it and then He might forgive them.
Al-^Azeem
The Great One, The Mighty, The One deserving the attributes of Exaltment, Glory, Extolement,and Purity from all imperfection.
Al-Ghafoor
The All-Forgiving, The Forgiving, The One who forgives a lot.
Ash-Shakoor
The Grateful, The Appreciative, The One who gives a lot of reward for a little obedience.
Al-^Aliyy
The Most High, The Sublime, The One who is clear from the attributes of the creatures.
Al-Kabeer
The Most Great, The Great, The One who is greater than everything in status.
Al-Hafeez
The Preserver, The Protector, The One who protects whatever and whoever He willed to protect.
Al-Muqeet
The Maintainer, The Guardian, The Feeder, The Sustainer, The One who has the Power.
Al-Haseeb
The Reckoner, The One who gives the satisfaction.
Aj-Jaleel
The Sublime One, The Beneficent, The One who is attributed with greatness of Power and Glory of status.
Al-Kareem
The Generous One, The Bountiful, The Gracious, The One who is attributed with greatness of Power and Glory of status.
Ar-Raqeeb
The Watcher, The Watchful, The One that nothing is absent from Him. Hence it`s meaning is related to the attribute of Knowledge.
Al-Mujeeb
The Responsive, The Hearkener, The One who answers the one in need if he asks Him and rescues the yearner if he calls upon Him.
Al-Wasi^
The Vast, The All-Embracing, The Knowledgeable.
Al-Hakeem
The Wise, The Judge of Judges, The One who is correct in His doings.
Al-Wadood
The Loving, The One who loves His believing slaves and His believing slaves love Him. His love to His slaves is His Will to be merciful to them and praise them:Hence it`s meaning is related to the attributes of the Will and Kalam (His attribute with which He orders and forbids and spoke to Muhammad and Musa -peace be upon them- . It is not a sound nor a language nor a letter.).
Al-Majeed
The Most Glorious One, The Glorious, The One who is with perfect Power, High Status, Compassion, Generosity and Kindness.
Al-Ba^ith
The Reserrector, The Raiser (from death), The One who resurrects His slaves after death for reward and/or punishment.
Ash-Shaheed
The Witness, The One who nothing is absent from Him.
Al-Haqq
The Truth, The True, The One who truly exists.
Al-Wakeel
The Trustee, The One who gives the satisfaction and is relied upon.
Al-Qawiyy
The Most Strong, The Strong, The One with the complete Power.
Al-Mateen
The Firm One, The One with extreme Power which is un-interrupted and He does not get tired.
Al-Waliyy
The Protecting Friend, The Supporter.
Al-Hameed
The Praiseworthy, The praised One who deserves to be praised.
Al-Muhsee
The Counter, The Reckoner, The One who the count of things are known to him.
Al-Mubdi`
The Originator, The One who started the human being. That is, He created him.
Al-Mu^eed
The Reproducer, The One who brings back the creatures after death.
Al-Muhyi
The Restorer, The Giver of Life, The One who took out a living human from semen that does not have a soul. He gives life by giving the souls back to the worn out bodies on the resurrection day and He makes the hearts alive by the light of knowledge.
Al-Mumeet
The Creator of Death, The Destroyer, The One who renders the living dead.
Al-Hayy
The Alive, The One attributed with a life that is unlike our life and is not that of a combination of soul, flesh or blood.
Al-Qayyoom
The Self-Subsisting, The One who remains and does not end.
Al-Waajid
The Perceiver, The Finder, The Rich who is never poor. Al-Wajd is Richness.
Al-Waahid
The Unique, The One, The One without a partner.
Al-Ahad
The One.
As-Samad
The Eternal, The Independent, The Master who is relied upon in matters and reverted to in ones needs.
Al-Qaadir
The Able, The Capable, The One attributed with Power.
Al-Muqtadir
The Powerful, The Dominant, The One with the perfect Power that nothing is withheld from Him.
Al-Muqaddim
The Expediter, The Promoter, The One who puts things in their right places. He makes ahead what He wills and delays what He wills.
Al-Mu`akh-khir
The Delayer, the Retarder, The One who puts things in their right places. He makes ahead what He wills and delays what He wills.
Al-`Awwal
The First, The One whose Existence is without a beginning.
Al-`Akhir
The Last, The One whose Existence is without an end.
Az-Zaahir
The Manifest, The One that nothing is above Him and nothing is underneath Him, hence He exists without a place. He, The Exalted, His Existence is obvious by proofs and He is clear from the delusions of attributes of bodies.
Al-Baatin
The Hidden, The One that nothing is above Him and nothing is underneath Him, hence He exists without a place. He, The Exalted, His Existence is obvious by proofs and He is clear from the delusions of attributes of bodies.
Al-Walee
The Governor, The One who owns things and manages them.
Al-Muta^ali
The Most Exalted, The High Exalted, The One who is clear from the attributes of the creation.
Al-Barr
The Source of All Goodness, The Righteous, The One who is kind to His creatures, who covered them with His sustenance and specified whoever He willed among them by His support, protection, and special mercy.
At-Tawwaab
The Acceptor of Repentance, The Relenting, The One who grants repentance to whoever He willed among His creatures and accepts his repentance.
Al-Muntaqim
The Avenger, The One who victoriously prevails over His enemies and punishes them for their sins. It may mean the One who destroys them.
Al-^Afuww
The Pardoner, The Forgiver, The One with wide forgiveness.
Ar-Ra`uf
The Compassionate, The One with extreme Mercy. The Mercy of Allah is His will to endow upon whoever He willed among His creatures.
Malik Al-Mulk
The Eternal Owner of Sovereignty, The One who controls the Dominion and gives dominion to whoever He willed.
Thul-Jalali wal-Ikram
The Lord of Majesty and Bounty, The One who deserves to be Exalted and not denied.
Al-Muqsit
The Equitable, The One who is Just in His judgment.
Aj-Jaami^
The Gatherer, The One who gathers the creatures on a day that there is no doubt about, that is the Day of Judgment.
Al-Ghaniyy
The Self-Sufficient, The One who does not need the creation.
Al-Mughni
The Enricher, The One who satisfies the necessities of the creatures.
Al-Maani^
The Preventer, The Withholder.
Ad-Daarr
The Distresser, The One who makes harm reach to whoever He willed and benefit to whoever He willed.
An-Nafi^
The Propitious, The One who makes harm reach to whoever He willed and benefit to whoever He willed.
An-Noor
The Light, The One who guides.
Al-Haadi
The Guide, The One whom with His Guidance His belivers were guided, and with His Guidance the living beings have been guided to what is beneficial for them and protected from what is harmful to them.
Al-Badi^
The Incomparable, The One who created the creation and formed it without any preceding example.
Al-Baaqi
The Everlasting, The One that the state of non-existence is impossible for Him.
Al-Waarith
The Supreme Inheritor, The Heir, The One whose Existence remains.
Ar-Rasheed
The Guide to the Right Path, The One who guides.
As-Saboor
The Patient, The One who does not quickly punish the sinners.
#31 Posted by Kamath on August 1, 2006 11:06:37 am
Dear Unstruly:
Once an eminent Indian philosopher of the last century quoted in his book -1926- . a Sufi utterance in the translation of Prof. Browne of Cambridge:
Beaker or flagon, or bowl or jar
Clumsy or slender, coarse or fine;
However the potter make or mar,
All were to made to contain the wine;
Should we seek this one or that one shun,
When the wine which gives them their worth is one?
Now here is another uttering that was born thousands of miles away from Prophet Muhammad`s place. This came from South India. read this:
Into the bosom of one great sea
Flow streams that came from hills from every side`
Their names are various as their springs,
And thus in every land do men bow down
To one great God, though known by many names.
Now what silly claim is then when people claim that ,This is the straight path and the only path etc?
Kamath
Once an eminent Indian philosopher of the last century quoted in his book -1926- . a Sufi utterance in the translation of Prof. Browne of Cambridge:
Beaker or flagon, or bowl or jar
Clumsy or slender, coarse or fine;
However the potter make or mar,
All were to made to contain the wine;
Should we seek this one or that one shun,
When the wine which gives them their worth is one?
Now here is another uttering that was born thousands of miles away from Prophet Muhammad`s place. This came from South India. read this:
Into the bosom of one great sea
Flow streams that came from hills from every side`
Their names are various as their springs,
And thus in every land do men bow down
To one great God, though known by many names.
Now what silly claim is then when people claim that ,This is the straight path and the only path etc?
Kamath
#30 Posted by Urstruly on August 1, 2006 10:35:53 am
Re: # 24
I did not mean to upset you, though I do not know what was that that did so. Anyway, I just had to deliver the message, which I did. Choice is only and only yours. I am forbidden to go any further than that, unless it is a querry.
Injun
To each his own. There is no compulsion in our religion.
I did not mean to upset you, though I do not know what was that that did so. Anyway, I just had to deliver the message, which I did. Choice is only and only yours. I am forbidden to go any further than that, unless it is a querry.
Injun
To each his own. There is no compulsion in our religion.
#29 Posted by Kamath on August 1, 2006 5:40:32 am
Re: # 28
``...RELIGION (Islam) is a WAY OF LIFE!..`` is an insipid cliche used by many Muslims to rationalize a certain way of thinking. But let us not make fun of great many spiritual dimensions of Islam which has given direction, solace and consolation to good Muslims.
Kamath
``...RELIGION (Islam) is a WAY OF LIFE!..`` is an insipid cliche used by many Muslims to rationalize a certain way of thinking. But let us not make fun of great many spiritual dimensions of Islam which has given direction, solace and consolation to good Muslims.
Kamath
#28 Posted by mwaleed86 on August 1, 2006 3:03:21 am
#26
``Let politics be politics ,let religion be religion. No politics of/in religion``
well all i can say is that for non-muslims...reglion is a past-time....even entertainment!....sum make it a business too...or to get attention!
but for muslims..RELIGION (Islam) is a WAY OF LIFE!
``Let politics be politics ,let religion be religion. No politics of/in religion``
well all i can say is that for non-muslims...reglion is a past-time....even entertainment!....sum make it a business too...or to get attention!
but for muslims..RELIGION (Islam) is a WAY OF LIFE!
#27 Posted by mwaleed86 on August 1, 2006 3:00:54 am
#26
``Let politics be politics ,let religion be religion. No politics of/in religion``
well all i can say is that for non-muslims...reglion is a past-time....even entertainment!....sum make it a business too...or to get attention!
but for muslims..RELIGION (Islam) is a WAY OF LIFE!
``Let politics be politics ,let religion be religion. No politics of/in religion``
well all i can say is that for non-muslims...reglion is a past-time....even entertainment!....sum make it a business too...or to get attention!
but for muslims..RELIGION (Islam) is a WAY OF LIFE!
#26 Posted by injun on July 31, 2006 10:07:23 pm
$24 KAMATH
``Persons like you have stopped stopped thinking and closed all the windows to the external world. That is a tragedy.``
I would not like to put the things that harshly but yes, Muslims need to shed their stereotype thinking and need to have a fresh look at their religion.
It would be much better that they keep their religion to themselves and not extend it to other religions, because that way it would go out of control. They will not be able to gain anything and will lose whatever they have.
In other and simple words, they badly need to seperate politics out of their religion. Let politics be politics ,let religion be religion. No politics of/in religion.
Regards.
``Persons like you have stopped stopped thinking and closed all the windows to the external world. That is a tragedy.``
I would not like to put the things that harshly but yes, Muslims need to shed their stereotype thinking and need to have a fresh look at their religion.
It would be much better that they keep their religion to themselves and not extend it to other religions, because that way it would go out of control. They will not be able to gain anything and will lose whatever they have.
In other and simple words, they badly need to seperate politics out of their religion. Let politics be politics ,let religion be religion. No politics of/in religion.
Regards.
#25 Posted by injun on July 31, 2006 9:54:43 pm
#19 URSTRULY
1. You are welcome. But I dont have any intention ,any desire to reach upto Him. I beleive in Father-Child relationship with Him as I have already explained.
2. Rest, I agree with #20 KAMATH.
Regards.
1. You are welcome. But I dont have any intention ,any desire to reach upto Him. I beleive in Father-Child relationship with Him as I have already explained.
2. Rest, I agree with #20 KAMATH.
Regards.
#24 Posted by Kamath on July 31, 2006 7:06:06 pm
Re: # 22 and 23#
Didn`t you say in one of your earlier comments that ``..... This makes Islam the first and last religion of this planet.....`` etc. etc. ? I gave you some elementary info believing you would see the reason and logic in studying a bit about human history to acknowledge the contributions of all great Faiths of humanity..
What a waste of time my trying to have a sensible exchange of ideas!
I think overwhelming majority of Muslims have simply closed their mind and have abandoned itjihad many centuries ago. That is why, Islamiat which once upon a time, was dynamic and absorbed ideas from other cultures in every walk of life has now become arthritic and a dilapidated. Persons like you have stopped stopped thinking and closed all the windows to the external world. That is a tragedy.
Kamath
Didn`t you say in one of your earlier comments that ``..... This makes Islam the first and last religion of this planet.....`` etc. etc. ? I gave you some elementary info believing you would see the reason and logic in studying a bit about human history to acknowledge the contributions of all great Faiths of humanity..
What a waste of time my trying to have a sensible exchange of ideas!
I think overwhelming majority of Muslims have simply closed their mind and have abandoned itjihad many centuries ago. That is why, Islamiat which once upon a time, was dynamic and absorbed ideas from other cultures in every walk of life has now become arthritic and a dilapidated. Persons like you have stopped stopped thinking and closed all the windows to the external world. That is a tragedy.
Kamath
#23 Posted by Urstruly on July 31, 2006 12:59:03 pm
Further to #22
Let me put what I wrote it in the simplest most terms. Suppose that on this planet, English were the only language spoken in every nook and crany and there was not even a concept of other `languages`. Then the name for the religion Islam would have been `Monotheism` lterally and adherent of this religion i.e. Muslims would have been called Monotheists. That is exactly what the Arabic terms `Islam` and `Muslims` translate into.
During and after the first crusades when Western world took interest in Islam and compared it to their own faiths they were taken aback. If you look at Judaism, the very name of it represents a racial fraternity rather than an ideology or a religion. Similarly, the word ``christian`` also represents a group i.e. the adherents of Christ - a person rather than an ideology or a religion. But in case of Islam i.e. Monotheism, the very name of it represents an ideology and the people who subscribe to this ideology are adherents to no one but One God. This was an eye opener for the Westerners but rather than accepting the inherent truth in the words like Islam or Muslims, they contenmptuously coined the terms Mohammadism and Mohammadens and hoped that one day like them Muslims would stop calling themselves Monotheists and just like them would become a fraternity of a personality or a cult of some sort.
Let me put what I wrote it in the simplest most terms. Suppose that on this planet, English were the only language spoken in every nook and crany and there was not even a concept of other `languages`. Then the name for the religion Islam would have been `Monotheism` lterally and adherent of this religion i.e. Muslims would have been called Monotheists. That is exactly what the Arabic terms `Islam` and `Muslims` translate into.
During and after the first crusades when Western world took interest in Islam and compared it to their own faiths they were taken aback. If you look at Judaism, the very name of it represents a racial fraternity rather than an ideology or a religion. Similarly, the word ``christian`` also represents a group i.e. the adherents of Christ - a person rather than an ideology or a religion. But in case of Islam i.e. Monotheism, the very name of it represents an ideology and the people who subscribe to this ideology are adherents to no one but One God. This was an eye opener for the Westerners but rather than accepting the inherent truth in the words like Islam or Muslims, they contenmptuously coined the terms Mohammadism and Mohammadens and hoped that one day like them Muslims would stop calling themselves Monotheists and just like them would become a fraternity of a personality or a cult of some sort.
#22 Posted by Urstruly on July 31, 2006 11:22:22 am
Re: # 21
I do not disagree with you on anything. Basically, you, Injun, and me are talking about the same thing but there are two words that are creating confusion in your mind regarding my point of view. These two words are ``Islam`` and ``Muslim``. The underlying premis of your argument is that ``Islam`` is a religion revealed to (or created by Mohammad (pbuh, if it makes you happy) and ``Muslims`` are those people who subscribe to this faith or religion. Whereas my point is that Islam is not a religion that was revealed upon Mohammad (pbuh) and Qura`n attests to my assertion as I have quoted several verses below to provide evidence. Qura`n says that Islam is nothing but belief in One God; even the word `Islam` literally means `submission to one God`, and word `Muslim`, which is an Arabic word, lieterally means, `one who submitts to One God``. So in Qura`n, Allah has emphasized at more than one place that the adjectives like `Christians`, `Jews`, or `Sabians` are meaningless. The only thing that has a meaning is the belief in One God. If you take this point, then adjectives like Islam and Muslim also become meaningless; but since it is inevitable human nature and compulsion that he has to name the name of a thing, person, or phenomenon, therefore we have a proper noun (in Arabic) to describe the phenomenon of submission to One God, and that proper noun is `Islam`. Similarly, the proper noun to name the person who submitts to One God is `Muslim`; just as a person who sews shoes is called `cobbler`.
The second point is about the Islam (as described above) being the first and final religion Lets put the religion aside for a minute. It is a fact of nature that every human being who has not subscribed to any religion when ponders the reason for his existence. He asks this question ``Who created me``. The very structure of the sentence is singualr in nature. Every child asks this question from their parents. In other words this quest is ingrained in our gentic code and it is not a learned behaviour. The question of multitude of gods or absence of any diety is a rationlized effort on part of human beings. Atheists, as a matter of fact, take great pride in their `rational` endeavor. So, if we understand this point, we can safely say that every child asks this question because it is in his nature. Extending this logic, my point is that the first human being who developed consciousness to a level where he could conceive the question `Who created me` and then figured out all by himself or thru a revelation that `One God` created him, was a Muslim. Holy prophet (pbuh) explaind this point in one of his hadith ``Every child is born a Muslim by nature; its is his parents who then make him a jew or christian.``
I do not disagree with you on anything. Basically, you, Injun, and me are talking about the same thing but there are two words that are creating confusion in your mind regarding my point of view. These two words are ``Islam`` and ``Muslim``. The underlying premis of your argument is that ``Islam`` is a religion revealed to (or created by Mohammad (pbuh, if it makes you happy) and ``Muslims`` are those people who subscribe to this faith or religion. Whereas my point is that Islam is not a religion that was revealed upon Mohammad (pbuh) and Qura`n attests to my assertion as I have quoted several verses below to provide evidence. Qura`n says that Islam is nothing but belief in One God; even the word `Islam` literally means `submission to one God`, and word `Muslim`, which is an Arabic word, lieterally means, `one who submitts to One God``. So in Qura`n, Allah has emphasized at more than one place that the adjectives like `Christians`, `Jews`, or `Sabians` are meaningless. The only thing that has a meaning is the belief in One God. If you take this point, then adjectives like Islam and Muslim also become meaningless; but since it is inevitable human nature and compulsion that he has to name the name of a thing, person, or phenomenon, therefore we have a proper noun (in Arabic) to describe the phenomenon of submission to One God, and that proper noun is `Islam`. Similarly, the proper noun to name the person who submitts to One God is `Muslim`; just as a person who sews shoes is called `cobbler`.
The second point is about the Islam (as described above) being the first and final religion Lets put the religion aside for a minute. It is a fact of nature that every human being who has not subscribed to any religion when ponders the reason for his existence. He asks this question ``Who created me``. The very structure of the sentence is singualr in nature. Every child asks this question from their parents. In other words this quest is ingrained in our gentic code and it is not a learned behaviour. The question of multitude of gods or absence of any diety is a rationlized effort on part of human beings. Atheists, as a matter of fact, take great pride in their `rational` endeavor. So, if we understand this point, we can safely say that every child asks this question because it is in his nature. Extending this logic, my point is that the first human being who developed consciousness to a level where he could conceive the question `Who created me` and then figured out all by himself or thru a revelation that `One God` created him, was a Muslim. Holy prophet (pbuh) explaind this point in one of his hadith ``Every child is born a Muslim by nature; its is his parents who then make him a jew or christian.``
#21 Posted by Kamath on July 31, 2006 10:48:09 am
Re: # 20
Interesting, very interesting indeed, Unstruly!
Have you ever read few good books written by reputable historians on the history of humanity, which give us also great deal of information on various world religions?
Islam is one of the many. There were born many great religions in human history.- some far more ancient than Islam , yet still living faiths for many even to day. They provide all the ethical and moral guidance to their followers. You may like to know that different religions arose with their own special flavors. They were separated by time, great oceans, formidable geographical barriers such as mountains and deserts and hostile environments before they could intermingle. There was always some cross-fertilization of ideas. Therefore each had their forms, and mythologies.
For instance, Islam was not born out of the sky even though devout Muslims like to think that way. Quran is the work written and dictated by Muhammad. Islam places tremendous emphasis on monotheism and gathered within itself not only some of the central beliefs of Judaism and Christianity, but also some aspects of early tribal religions of Arabian desert and Zoroastrianism It is much than its component parts.
According to a well-known philosopher of religions Prof. Damien Keown at Oxford University, all religions have seven dimensions. They are
1.Practical and Ritual
2.Experimental and Emotional
3.Narrative and Mythic
4.Doctrinal and Philosophical
5. Ethical and legal
6.Social and Institutional
7.Matrieal
We need not go into these because it would take much more time and space to explain these things.
If you dwell a bit more on these topics , won’t you agree with me that it is time to give up the idea of describing Islam in absolutist terms? -Don’t you think that these statements,” .. All the aspects of human nature have thus been addressed and revealed to human beings. This makes Islam the first and last religion of this planet….” Is it not bit childish and ignorant?
Kamath
Interesting, very interesting indeed, Unstruly!
Have you ever read few good books written by reputable historians on the history of humanity, which give us also great deal of information on various world religions?
Islam is one of the many. There were born many great religions in human history.- some far more ancient than Islam , yet still living faiths for many even to day. They provide all the ethical and moral guidance to their followers. You may like to know that different religions arose with their own special flavors. They were separated by time, great oceans, formidable geographical barriers such as mountains and deserts and hostile environments before they could intermingle. There was always some cross-fertilization of ideas. Therefore each had their forms, and mythologies.
For instance, Islam was not born out of the sky even though devout Muslims like to think that way. Quran is the work written and dictated by Muhammad. Islam places tremendous emphasis on monotheism and gathered within itself not only some of the central beliefs of Judaism and Christianity, but also some aspects of early tribal religions of Arabian desert and Zoroastrianism It is much than its component parts.
According to a well-known philosopher of religions Prof. Damien Keown at Oxford University, all religions have seven dimensions. They are
1.Practical and Ritual
2.Experimental and Emotional
3.Narrative and Mythic
4.Doctrinal and Philosophical
5. Ethical and legal
6.Social and Institutional
7.Matrieal
We need not go into these because it would take much more time and space to explain these things.
If you dwell a bit more on these topics , won’t you agree with me that it is time to give up the idea of describing Islam in absolutist terms? -Don’t you think that these statements,” .. All the aspects of human nature have thus been addressed and revealed to human beings. This makes Islam the first and last religion of this planet….” Is it not bit childish and ignorant?
Kamath
#20 Posted by Urstruly on July 31, 2006 7:54:27 am
Injun
`` 2. As far as Allah is considered, not only me, anybody who has slightest knowledge of world religions will agree that Allah, in Arabic, is that something which is called Bhagwan in Sanskrit and God in English. So, as I have said already, there is no dispute as far as Allah is concerned. ``
I feel that my work is done and yours has just begun. You helped yourself in chosing the right destination, now you have to figure out the right path-a path that is shortest, straightest, and easiest. There is a saying that says ``If you don`t know where you are going, you will probably never get there``. Don`t mind me taking liberty to amend this saying a little bit, ``If you know where you have to go but don`t want to go there, you will probably never get there.``
`` 2. As far as Allah is considered, not only me, anybody who has slightest knowledge of world religions will agree that Allah, in Arabic, is that something which is called Bhagwan in Sanskrit and God in English. So, as I have said already, there is no dispute as far as Allah is concerned. ``
I feel that my work is done and yours has just begun. You helped yourself in chosing the right destination, now you have to figure out the right path-a path that is shortest, straightest, and easiest. There is a saying that says ``If you don`t know where you are going, you will probably never get there``. Don`t mind me taking liberty to amend this saying a little bit, ``If you know where you have to go but don`t want to go there, you will probably never get there.``
#19 Posted by injun on July 30, 2006 11:24:47 pm
#18 URSTRULY
1. My copy of Koran which has been published in Saudi Arabia translates ``Lalilah.....`` as ``Noone has right to be worshipped but Allah and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah``. Since SA is considered to be the seat of Islam, I will go by this translation only.
2. As far as Allah is considered, not only me, anybody who has slightest knowledge of world religions will agree that Allah, in Arabic, is that something which is called Bhagwan in Sanskrit and God in English. So, as I have said already, there is no dispute as far as Allah is concerned.
3. You say ``there are basically two aspects to the human quest to find the purpose of his existence - First he must know what his destination is and second what path or paths leads him to that destination. ``
I would say, not necessarily or not at all. A Christian or for that matter a Hindu does not want a tred a path which leads him to God. A Christian beleives that he is a born sinner and God will take away all his sins. A Hindu beleives that as & when he is in trouble, or in difficulty or a calamity has struck has struck him, God will come and show him the light and the way. So as far as a christian is concerned, to which Hindus also agree, that God for us is our Father and we are His children. We are bound to commit sin, bound to commit mistakes, bound to do ill-things but our Father i.e. God will always be there to help us and get us out of the trouble no matter that the cause of these troubles are we. This is the kind of faith that of Father & Child exists between we humans & God, which is our belief.
Now if you say and Islam does say that Prophet Mohammed was the last messenger of God. If we believe this, then you will agree that our entire faith on God is shatterred. Because, now He is nomore there to help us ,to guide us, to show us light.
4. It is this disconnect between Islam and other religions. So we non-muslims beleive that as & when some child of His is in trouble He shows the light to him. When Moses and his tribe were trouble ,he came and showed the path. When christians(those who ultimately followed Christ) were in trouble, He came in the form of Christ and showed them the light. So on & so forth for the followers of Rama, Krishna ,Buddha, Guru Nanak Dev etc.
5. Now if Muslims accept that the messages given to Prophet Mohammed were meant only for the Arabs of that time, there is no conflict because this would go in line with the thinking of other religions that the messages are Child-specific, though with universal content in them. But Muslims extrapolate their religion to cover all religions as well.
Mind it, Koran or the sayings of Prophet Mohammed do not reflect this--I feel it were later Muslims who interpreted-by default or design-like this. Koran never says that the messages are for all Mankind though it encourages all human to follow the messages but doesnot force it. Prophet Mohammed( as far as I understand) himself did not force anybody to embrace Islam.
6. And lastly let me comment on what you have said that Islam was the first and the last religion. Koran does not say so--I would say again that this is the interpretation of later Muslim Scholars. Islam is what has been said in Koran and Islam stands on the Five principles of Belief in Allah and Prophet Mohammed, Prayers, fasting, Zakat and Hajj. The message given to Moses by Allah was something but no Islam, message given by Christ may be something XYZ but not Islam, messages given by Rama and Krishna were something but not Islam. THough, may be all these messages were given by Allah. But Islam is what has been told to Prophet Mohammed by Allah.
Here, this is the fault of muslims who have monopolised Allah and branded Him. Their contention is since Allah is Islamic God, therefore the message given to Moses automatically becomes Islam or message given by Christ automatically becomes Islam since christ was a messenger of Allah and Allah is muslim God.
No Allah is universal God. He belongs to everybody. And even Allah does not say in Koran that Torah and Gospel were Islam. He names Torah and Gospel as such with the contention that they were also delivered by Him.
So I feel that Muslims have to correct this that first, Allah is not the monopoly or a branded product of Islam--He is universal and secondly, Islam is the message given to Prophet Mohammed only(and which has five distinct pillars) and not to others. This is what Koran says, as far as I understand.
Regards.
1. My copy of Koran which has been published in Saudi Arabia translates ``Lalilah.....`` as ``Noone has right to be worshipped but Allah and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah``. Since SA is considered to be the seat of Islam, I will go by this translation only.
2. As far as Allah is considered, not only me, anybody who has slightest knowledge of world religions will agree that Allah, in Arabic, is that something which is called Bhagwan in Sanskrit and God in English. So, as I have said already, there is no dispute as far as Allah is concerned.
3. You say ``there are basically two aspects to the human quest to find the purpose of his existence - First he must know what his destination is and second what path or paths leads him to that destination. ``
I would say, not necessarily or not at all. A Christian or for that matter a Hindu does not want a tred a path which leads him to God. A Christian beleives that he is a born sinner and God will take away all his sins. A Hindu beleives that as & when he is in trouble, or in difficulty or a calamity has struck has struck him, God will come and show him the light and the way. So as far as a christian is concerned, to which Hindus also agree, that God for us is our Father and we are His children. We are bound to commit sin, bound to commit mistakes, bound to do ill-things but our Father i.e. God will always be there to help us and get us out of the trouble no matter that the cause of these troubles are we. This is the kind of faith that of Father & Child exists between we humans & God, which is our belief.
Now if you say and Islam does say that Prophet Mohammed was the last messenger of God. If we believe this, then you will agree that our entire faith on God is shatterred. Because, now He is nomore there to help us ,to guide us, to show us light.
4. It is this disconnect between Islam and other religions. So we non-muslims beleive that as & when some child of His is in trouble He shows the light to him. When Moses and his tribe were trouble ,he came and showed the path. When christians(those who ultimately followed Christ) were in trouble, He came in the form of Christ and showed them the light. So on & so forth for the followers of Rama, Krishna ,Buddha, Guru Nanak Dev etc.
5. Now if Muslims accept that the messages given to Prophet Mohammed were meant only for the Arabs of that time, there is no conflict because this would go in line with the thinking of other religions that the messages are Child-specific, though with universal content in them. But Muslims extrapolate their religion to cover all religions as well.
Mind it, Koran or the sayings of Prophet Mohammed do not reflect this--I feel it were later Muslims who interpreted-by default or design-like this. Koran never says that the messages are for all Mankind though it encourages all human to follow the messages but doesnot force it. Prophet Mohammed( as far as I understand) himself did not force anybody to embrace Islam.
6. And lastly let me comment on what you have said that Islam was the first and the last religion. Koran does not say so--I would say again that this is the interpretation of later Muslim Scholars. Islam is what has been said in Koran and Islam stands on the Five principles of Belief in Allah and Prophet Mohammed, Prayers, fasting, Zakat and Hajj. The message given to Moses by Allah was something but no Islam, message given by Christ may be something XYZ but not Islam, messages given by Rama and Krishna were something but not Islam. THough, may be all these messages were given by Allah. But Islam is what has been told to Prophet Mohammed by Allah.
Here, this is the fault of muslims who have monopolised Allah and branded Him. Their contention is since Allah is Islamic God, therefore the message given to Moses automatically becomes Islam or message given by Christ automatically becomes Islam since christ was a messenger of Allah and Allah is muslim God.
No Allah is universal God. He belongs to everybody. And even Allah does not say in Koran that Torah and Gospel were Islam. He names Torah and Gospel as such with the contention that they were also delivered by Him.
So I feel that Muslims have to correct this that first, Allah is not the monopoly or a branded product of Islam--He is universal and secondly, Islam is the message given to Prophet Mohammed only(and which has five distinct pillars) and not to others. This is what Koran says, as far as I understand.
Regards.
#18 Posted by Urstruly on July 28, 2006 10:17:03 am
Injun
````Lailah illalah Mohammed ur rusul Allah`` i.e ``nobody has right to be worshipped other than Allah and Mohammed is his Messenger.``
The correct translation would be ``There is no God but Allah and Mohammad (pbuh) is his messenger``.
From your post I gather that you have no problem with the first part of this creed, but you have serious qualms about the second part. This issue should not have arisen at all had you understood the intent of my last postings.
Let me explain it in detail. The Kalima or the creed written above has two parts to it. One related to God and one to Mohammad (pbuh). If you recall our conversation below, I have elaborated that there are basically two aspects to the human quest to find the purpose of his existence - First he must know what his destination is and second what path or paths leads him to that destination. As far as the destination is concerned I showed you in my last posts that the only logical, common sense, and simplest goal of human thought process inevitably tells him that there is only One God. Once a human being is convinced of the absolute truth of this knowledge, the next inevitability is the question `how can I get closer to Him, what path will lead me to Him.` And I showed you in the Qura`nic words that it is not the path but destination is important. So in the creed `` Lailah illalah Mohammed ur rusul Allah`` not only destination but path to get to that destination has been shown to the mankind. Needless to say that Mohammad (pbuh) is the path.
But. But. But, I must stress here again that even Qura`n stipulates that path is not important. In addition to the verses that I have already quoted let me quote one more so that there remains no doubt why path is of lesser importance. I will quote the most quoted verse of Qura`n, which is The Heifer 2:256 ``There should be no compulsion in the religion`` .
Ironically, this verse is mostly quoted by those Muslims who have weak faith and when they do not feel like doing something, which was made incumbent upon them. But that is a discussion for some other time. Here it is extremely important to understand the context of this verse; since that is the only way to understand the issue that we are discussing. In order to do that i.e. to understand the context of this verse we should see what topic is Qura`n discussing while revealing this sentence. One verse before this `no compulsion`` verse goes something like below. By the way this verse that I am about to quote is considered the most exalted, most elaborative, and most concise verse ever revealed, which puts the essence of Islam in one sentence:
The Heifer: 2:255 Allah! is He besides Whom there is no god, the Ever-living, the Self-subsisting, by Whom all subsist; slumber does not overtake Him nor sleep; whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; Who could intercede with Him, except in accordance with His will? He knows their past, and their future. No one attains any knowledge, except as He wills. His dominion encompasses the heavens and the earth, and ruling them never burdens Him. He is the Most High, the Great.
And then comes the most quoted ``no compulsion`` verse, whose complete text is as follows:
``2:256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: The right direction henceforth is (made) distinct from error. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.
It is abundantly clear from the text that by right direction Qura`n is referring to the belief of One God as detailed in 2;255. Once the belief is revealed, it is immediately followed by order that, Let there be no compulsion to believe in this belief. Thus this belief is a choice. And every human being at least once in his lifetime comes across a point where he HAS to make this choice. Once that human being has made the choice to accept this belief in One God i.e. he has chosen his `destination`, he comes across this inevitable question :``what is the path that leads me to that destination?``. As Muslims it is our duty towards God that whenever we find a human being at this juncture in his life we tell him about the right choice `` Lailaha illalah (There is no God but Allah)`` and the shortest and the straightest path to get to Him is `` Mohammed ur rusul Allah (Mohammad (pbuh) is his messenger)``. That is all we have to do. Making the choice of right destination and choosing the right path to get there is that man`s own prerogative. Not even God`s Prophet (pbuh) was allowed to force or coerce people into making these choices and we are but merely his disciples.
````Lailah illalah Mohammed ur rusul Allah`` i.e ``nobody has right to be worshipped other than Allah and Mohammed is his Messenger.``
The correct translation would be ``There is no God but Allah and Mohammad (pbuh) is his messenger``.
From your post I gather that you have no problem with the first part of this creed, but you have serious qualms about the second part. This issue should not have arisen at all had you understood the intent of my last postings.
Let me explain it in detail. The Kalima or the creed written above has two parts to it. One related to God and one to Mohammad (pbuh). If you recall our conversation below, I have elaborated that there are basically two aspects to the human quest to find the purpose of his existence - First he must know what his destination is and second what path or paths leads him to that destination. As far as the destination is concerned I showed you in my last posts that the only logical, common sense, and simplest goal of human thought process inevitably tells him that there is only One God. Once a human being is convinced of the absolute truth of this knowledge, the next inevitability is the question `how can I get closer to Him, what path will lead me to Him.` And I showed you in the Qura`nic words that it is not the path but destination is important. So in the creed `` Lailah illalah Mohammed ur rusul Allah`` not only destination but path to get to that destination has been shown to the mankind. Needless to say that Mohammad (pbuh) is the path.
But. But. But, I must stress here again that even Qura`n stipulates that path is not important. In addition to the verses that I have already quoted let me quote one more so that there remains no doubt why path is of lesser importance. I will quote the most quoted verse of Qura`n, which is The Heifer 2:256 ``There should be no compulsion in the religion`` .
Ironically, this verse is mostly quoted by those Muslims who have weak faith and when they do not feel like doing something, which was made incumbent upon them. But that is a discussion for some other time. Here it is extremely important to understand the context of this verse; since that is the only way to understand the issue that we are discussing. In order to do that i.e. to understand the context of this verse we should see what topic is Qura`n discussing while revealing this sentence. One verse before this `no compulsion`` verse goes something like below. By the way this verse that I am about to quote is considered the most exalted, most elaborative, and most concise verse ever revealed, which puts the essence of Islam in one sentence:
The Heifer: 2:255 Allah! is He besides Whom there is no god, the Ever-living, the Self-subsisting, by Whom all subsist; slumber does not overtake Him nor sleep; whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; Who could intercede with Him, except in accordance with His will? He knows their past, and their future. No one attains any knowledge, except as He wills. His dominion encompasses the heavens and the earth, and ruling them never burdens Him. He is the Most High, the Great.
And then comes the most quoted ``no compulsion`` verse, whose complete text is as follows:
``2:256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: The right direction henceforth is (made) distinct from error. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.
It is abundantly clear from the text that by right direction Qura`n is referring to the belief of One God as detailed in 2;255. Once the belief is revealed, it is immediately followed by order that, Let there be no compulsion to believe in this belief. Thus this belief is a choice. And every human being at least once in his lifetime comes across a point where he HAS to make this choice. Once that human being has made the choice to accept this belief in One God i.e. he has chosen his `destination`, he comes across this inevitable question :``what is the path that leads me to that destination?``. As Muslims it is our duty towards God that whenever we find a human being at this juncture in his life we tell him about the right choice `` Lailaha illalah (There is no God but Allah)`` and the shortest and the straightest path to get to Him is `` Mohammed ur rusul Allah (Mohammad (pbuh) is his messenger)``. That is all we have to do. Making the choice of right destination and choosing the right path to get there is that man`s own prerogative. Not even God`s Prophet (pbuh) was allowed to force or coerce people into making these choices and we are but merely his disciples.
#17 Posted by injun on July 28, 2006 12:10:38 am
#15 CONTINUED
And the day Muslims start believing/saying that the messages as given in Islam are meant only for Muslims and not for the enitire mankind, I tell you, all conflicts between Muslims and Non-muslims will come to an end.
Regards.
And the day Muslims start believing/saying that the messages as given in Islam are meant only for Muslims and not for the enitire mankind, I tell you, all conflicts between Muslims and Non-muslims will come to an end.
Regards.
#16 Posted by injun on July 28, 2006 12:02:52 am
#15 URSTRULY
I appreciate your reply, though I may beg to differ in some aspects particularly related to Islam.
Let me comment para wise
Para 1 `` As I wrote earlier........the nature of man``.
******************************************
Ok.Agreed.
Para 2 `` You might find it interesting ........ essentially means no God.``
**********************************************************
Here you are silent on one of the most important and rather the very first step of Islam, as reveled in Koran and that is ``Lailah illalah Mohammed ur rusul Allah`` i.e ``nobody has right to be worshipped other than Allah and Mohammed is his Messenger.``.
Now you have to agree here that Islam, as we understand it, has two what you can call as Tieing points One is Allah and another one is Prophet Mohammed. Let us say Allah is the monotheist God which anybody can accept. But what about Prophet Mohammed.
To clarify further, let me say that as a Hindu ,I accept that Hinduism is a part of Islam as far as religion is concerned. Then what about Prophet Mohammed?? If I say that I accept Allah but not Prophet Mohammed as his messenger, then we wre back to the square one i.e. Hinduism and Islam are separate religions though, a very important though here, Allah of Islam and Ishwar of Hinduism may be the same(and they are, I feel).
You say that ``every monothiest is a Muslim``. No. Muslim is a one who may be monotheist by practice but he believes Prophet Mohammed as a messenger of Allah. Any other person who may be a monotheist but does not believe Prophet Mohammed to be God`s messenger CANNOT BE TERMED AS A MUSLIM, I feel.
Para 3 ``This belief in One God....that Mohammad (pbuh) has paved.``
*********************************************************
Sorry, I beg to differ. There are many aspects of Koran i.e the path paved by Prophet Mohammed in which Muslims themselves differ or have different opinions. The two most common are the concept of Jehad and Status of Women. Some Muslims believe that Jehad is to undertaken at certain situations whereas some believe that Jehad is one of the duties of Muslims. Similar is the case of Women. Prophet Mohammed gave his messages in Hadith for Arabs only. he was not talking about humanity as a whole, which is very clear from the messages itself. There should be no doubt it. Prophet Mohammed was reforming those religions which were prevalent at that point of time in Arabia. To say that Prophet Mohammed was talking about all mankind would be a generalisation, I feel.
Para 4 ``Let me explain this with an example.....ingenuity of Quran is that once you believe in Oneness of Allah, this becomes the inevitable logical outcome. ``
Again there are two points. One is the belief in One God call Him Allah, God or whatever. There is no conflict in it, I feel. But when you come one step lower i.e. the messages of that One God, the conflict starts. Let us for example say that Moses, Jesus, Rama, Krishna, Buddha and Prophet Mohammed were all part and parcel of One God i.e. Allah. Then why only the messages given to Prophet Mohammed are to be believed and why not messages given to/by Moses, Christ, Rama, Krishna and Buddha????
The problem, to my mind, between Muslims and Non-Muslims is this only. Non-muslims believe that Koran/Islam is just one of the many messages received by mankind from time to time and the belief of these messages is one`s choice. But Muslims say that there message is the final message and it supercedes all messages given earlier and Islam is the final religion.
I appreciate your reply, though I may beg to differ in some aspects particularly related to Islam.
Let me comment para wise
Para 1 `` As I wrote earlier........the nature of man``.
******************************************
Ok.Agreed.
Para 2 `` You might find it interesting ........ essentially means no God.``
**********************************************************
Here you are silent on one of the most important and rather the very first step of Islam, as reveled in Koran and that is ``Lailah illalah Mohammed ur rusul Allah`` i.e ``nobody has right to be worshipped other than Allah and Mohammed is his Messenger.``.
Now you have to agree here that Islam, as we understand it, has two what you can call as Tieing points One is Allah and another one is Prophet Mohammed. Let us say Allah is the monotheist God which anybody can accept. But what about Prophet Mohammed.
To clarify further, let me say that as a Hindu ,I accept that Hinduism is a part of Islam as far as religion is concerned. Then what about Prophet Mohammed?? If I say that I accept Allah but not Prophet Mohammed as his messenger, then we wre back to the square one i.e. Hinduism and Islam are separate religions though, a very important though here, Allah of Islam and Ishwar of Hinduism may be the same(and they are, I feel).
You say that ``every monothiest is a Muslim``. No. Muslim is a one who may be monotheist by practice but he believes Prophet Mohammed as a messenger of Allah. Any other person who may be a monotheist but does not believe Prophet Mohammed to be God`s messenger CANNOT BE TERMED AS A MUSLIM, I feel.
Para 3 ``This belief in One God....that Mohammad (pbuh) has paved.``
*********************************************************
Sorry, I beg to differ. There are many aspects of Koran i.e the path paved by Prophet Mohammed in which Muslims themselves differ or have different opinions. The two most common are the concept of Jehad and Status of Women. Some Muslims believe that Jehad is to undertaken at certain situations whereas some believe that Jehad is one of the duties of Muslims. Similar is the case of Women. Prophet Mohammed gave his messages in Hadith for Arabs only. he was not talking about humanity as a whole, which is very clear from the messages itself. There should be no doubt it. Prophet Mohammed was reforming those religions which were prevalent at that point of time in Arabia. To say that Prophet Mohammed was talking about all mankind would be a generalisation, I feel.
Para 4 ``Let me explain this with an example.....ingenuity of Quran is that once you believe in Oneness of Allah, this becomes the inevitable logical outcome. ``
Again there are two points. One is the belief in One God call Him Allah, God or whatever. There is no conflict in it, I feel. But when you come one step lower i.e. the messages of that One God, the conflict starts. Let us for example say that Moses, Jesus, Rama, Krishna, Buddha and Prophet Mohammed were all part and parcel of One God i.e. Allah. Then why only the messages given to Prophet Mohammed are to be believed and why not messages given to/by Moses, Christ, Rama, Krishna and Buddha????
The problem, to my mind, between Muslims and Non-Muslims is this only. Non-muslims believe that Koran/Islam is just one of the many messages received by mankind from time to time and the belief of these messages is one`s choice. But Muslims say that there message is the final message and it supercedes all messages given earlier and Islam is the final religion.
#15 Posted by Urstruly on July 27, 2006 7:20:42 am
Re: # 14
Youu write:
``How can you claim that the Islam was THE FIRST religion of this Planet. Only because Koran says so??? ``
and
`` Because then essentially all religions are Islam and Islam is all religions.``
As I wrote earlier, the human intellectual development has been gradual. Where we are at today, intellectually, we couldn`t even imagine it 200 or 500 years ago. If we extend this knowledge and apply the logic to the first homosapien, Adam, who was the first to question who he was and where did he come from. The answer that he might have gotten would have been extremely simple. The message to him would have been merely that there is One God who created you and you will return back to him. At that stage man, would have not established societies, nor he would have been intellectually capable to grasp the concepts of morality. Slowly, as the humanity progressed, and man developed intellectually, he was given moral instructions at a level where he could understand them. From non-religious anthropological point of view those were the days, and years when human nature was in its formative stages. By human nature I mean those apsects of human behavior which are controlled by biological or genetic make up. For example, a man 10,000 years ago must disliked untruth and so does he today. This was not the learned behavior, it was genetic. There are other human traits such as jealousy, competitiveness, combatativeness, will to survive, and feeling sad upon the misery of other, which are not learned behaviors but they are genetically ingrained in us. Is there a human being in history of mankind who can claim that he had never been jealous. No; because it is impossible to fight genetic programming. So when I say that Islam is the first and last religion of this planet, I mean that it is the religion that addresses the nature of man.
You might find it interesting that at various places in Qura`n, it refers to Jews and Christians with the Arabic word ``Muslim``, which literally means one who submitts to One God. Qura`n also refers to people and societies that existed before Christians and Jews, and belived in Monotheism as ``Muslims``. These societies are either known but perished because of some reason, such as natural disasters or they still exist today but are unknown. Without much certainty we may call Monotheist Hindus as those Muslims who survived but are not known by this name. So in a nutshell, every Monotheist is basically a Muslim. By this logic the first homo sapien who was able to intellectually concieve the question ``Who craeted me?`` and deduced the answer that ``One God Created me`` was the Muslim. This basically divides humanity in two groups beleivers (One God) and non-believers (i.e. No God, or many Gods, which (polytheism) essentially means no God).
This belief in One God is the destination or objective of the human existence. It satisfy the one aspect of human inquisitive nature. The second part is to harness the human nature aspect and direct it to a path, which leads you to this destination. The ingenuity and boldness with which Qura`n declares all Monotheists to be the Muslims is that once this message (of Monotheism) is understood completely it is impossible not to follow the path that Mohammad (pbuh) has paved.
Let me explain this with an example. In Qura`n, it discusses in detail what made early surviving Muslims to go astray. For example, the charge against Jews is that they changed their religion into a racial fraternity. In other words a Jew can be a person who is born Jew. Islam rejects this racism and says that if Monotheism is the purpose of human existence then being a Jew becomes not only irrelevant but leads human beings astray from the path that leads to the destination of Monotheism. Jews believe that they are salvaged by just being Jew. They stopped delivering this message (Monotheism) to fellow human beings thus erecting Jewery as a potential god that restricts other human beings to reach True God. In order to correct this, Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) established the path of equality of mankind; where no human being has precedence over the other because of the accident of their birth, their color, their language, or any other aspect that divides humanity today. The ingenuity of Quran is that once you believe in Oneness of Allah, this becomes the inevitable logical outcome.
Youu write:
``How can you claim that the Islam was THE FIRST religion of this Planet. Only because Koran says so??? ``
and
`` Because then essentially all religions are Islam and Islam is all religions.``
As I wrote earlier, the human intellectual development has been gradual. Where we are at today, intellectually, we couldn`t even imagine it 200 or 500 years ago. If we extend this knowledge and apply the logic to the first homosapien, Adam, who was the first to question who he was and where did he come from. The answer that he might have gotten would have been extremely simple. The message to him would have been merely that there is One God who created you and you will return back to him. At that stage man, would have not established societies, nor he would have been intellectually capable to grasp the concepts of morality. Slowly, as the humanity progressed, and man developed intellectually, he was given moral instructions at a level where he could understand them. From non-religious anthropological point of view those were the days, and years when human nature was in its formative stages. By human nature I mean those apsects of human behavior which are controlled by biological or genetic make up. For example, a man 10,000 years ago must disliked untruth and so does he today. This was not the learned behavior, it was genetic. There are other human traits such as jealousy, competitiveness, combatativeness, will to survive, and feeling sad upon the misery of other, which are not learned behaviors but they are genetically ingrained in us. Is there a human being in history of mankind who can claim that he had never been jealous. No; because it is impossible to fight genetic programming. So when I say that Islam is the first and last religion of this planet, I mean that it is the religion that addresses the nature of man.
You might find it interesting that at various places in Qura`n, it refers to Jews and Christians with the Arabic word ``Muslim``, which literally means one who submitts to One God. Qura`n also refers to people and societies that existed before Christians and Jews, and belived in Monotheism as ``Muslims``. These societies are either known but perished because of some reason, such as natural disasters or they still exist today but are unknown. Without much certainty we may call Monotheist Hindus as those Muslims who survived but are not known by this name. So in a nutshell, every Monotheist is basically a Muslim. By this logic the first homo sapien who was able to intellectually concieve the question ``Who craeted me?`` and deduced the answer that ``One God Created me`` was the Muslim. This basically divides humanity in two groups beleivers (One God) and non-believers (i.e. No God, or many Gods, which (polytheism) essentially means no God).
This belief in One God is the destination or objective of the human existence. It satisfy the one aspect of human inquisitive nature. The second part is to harness the human nature aspect and direct it to a path, which leads you to this destination. The ingenuity and boldness with which Qura`n declares all Monotheists to be the Muslims is that once this message (of Monotheism) is understood completely it is impossible not to follow the path that Mohammad (pbuh) has paved.
Let me explain this with an example. In Qura`n, it discusses in detail what made early surviving Muslims to go astray. For example, the charge against Jews is that they changed their religion into a racial fraternity. In other words a Jew can be a person who is born Jew. Islam rejects this racism and says that if Monotheism is the purpose of human existence then being a Jew becomes not only irrelevant but leads human beings astray from the path that leads to the destination of Monotheism. Jews believe that they are salvaged by just being Jew. They stopped delivering this message (Monotheism) to fellow human beings thus erecting Jewery as a potential god that restricts other human beings to reach True God. In order to correct this, Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) established the path of equality of mankind; where no human being has precedence over the other because of the accident of their birth, their color, their language, or any other aspect that divides humanity today. The ingenuity of Quran is that once you believe in Oneness of Allah, this becomes the inevitable logical outcome.
#14 Posted by injun on July 27, 2006 1:52:41 am
#11 URSTRULY
Your arote :-
````
It is one of the core Muslim beliefs that God has sent close to 124,000 prophets and messengers to every nation or community on this planet who delivered the message of Monotheism to the people. This chain of Prophet ends at Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) since everything that human beings needed to know about their Creator, our relationship to Him, and that between us has been explained through the books and practically through the lives of the Prophets. All the aspects of human nature have thus been addressed and revealed to human beings. This makes Islam the first and last religion of this planet.
````
How can you claim that the Islam was THE FIRST religion of this Planet. Only because Koran says so??? Assumng that the God who was giving convenants to Moses was the same who made revelations to Prophet Mohammed, then whether he gave wrong messages to Moses?? And if the messages given to Moses were right, what was the need to give fresh messages to Prophet Mohammed?? OK, if you say that the messages given to Moses by God were correct, but people down the line misinterpreted and misinterpreted it(which is the basis of revelation of Koran), then you have to agree that atleast the Book Of Genesis is correct. It is then another matter that the followers of Genesis has made a mockery of it.
You say that ``It is one of the core Muslim beliefs that God has sent close to 124,000 prophets and messengers to every nation or community on this planet who delivered the message of Monotheism to the people``. By this statement, dont you feel that God is crazy or a poor communicator that he cant His message in a single GO. He has to send 124,000 Prophets and Messengers to give His message without realising that that even if these prophets and messengers err to the extent of 1%, the message between the first and the last prophet/messenger will be diamterically opposite.
Another point here is the belief that God has to send prophets/messengers to give His messages. What is the logic here?? If God at all wants to give His message then why he cant give on His own. That way the Book of Genesis is more trustworthy where God gave His messages directly to Moses.
You say that Islam is the final version of all the messages that were sent earlier then where is the question of Jehad and Kaffir??? Because then essentially all religions are Islam and Islam is all religions.
In my final analysis, though it is correct that there can be only ONE GOD or there is no God at all, but what has been told in different religions, the different messages, the different rituals and practices, depends upon one`s choice.
If you believe in the messages of Koran ,thats your choice and if I dont believe in those messages, its my choice. You cant generalise the things that all the Prophets/ Messengers/ Incarnations were ultimately laying foundations of the Final Religion which is Islam and which was to be reveled by Allah or God himself to Prophet Mohammed at some point of time.
Atleast I dont believe in that.
Your arote :-
````
It is one of the core Muslim beliefs that God has sent close to 124,000 prophets and messengers to every nation or community on this planet who delivered the message of Monotheism to the people. This chain of Prophet ends at Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) since everything that human beings needed to know about their Creator, our relationship to Him, and that between us has been explained through the books and practically through the lives of the Prophets. All the aspects of human nature have thus been addressed and revealed to human beings. This makes Islam the first and last religion of this planet.
````
How can you claim that the Islam was THE FIRST religion of this Planet. Only because Koran says so??? Assumng that the God who was giving convenants to Moses was the same who made revelations to Prophet Mohammed, then whether he gave wrong messages to Moses?? And if the messages given to Moses were right, what was the need to give fresh messages to Prophet Mohammed?? OK, if you say that the messages given to Moses by God were correct, but people down the line misinterpreted and misinterpreted it(which is the basis of revelation of Koran), then you have to agree that atleast the Book Of Genesis is correct. It is then another matter that the followers of Genesis has made a mockery of it.
You say that ``It is one of the core Muslim beliefs that God has sent close to 124,000 prophets and messengers to every nation or community on this planet who delivered the message of Monotheism to the people``. By this statement, dont you feel that God is crazy or a poor communicator that he cant His message in a single GO. He has to send 124,000 Prophets and Messengers to give His message without realising that that even if these prophets and messengers err to the extent of 1%, the message between the first and the last prophet/messenger will be diamterically opposite.
Another point here is the belief that God has to send prophets/messengers to give His messages. What is the logic here?? If God at all wants to give His message then why he cant give on His own. That way the Book of Genesis is more trustworthy where God gave His messages directly to Moses.
You say that Islam is the final version of all the messages that were sent earlier then where is the question of Jehad and Kaffir??? Because then essentially all religions are Islam and Islam is all religions.
In my final analysis, though it is correct that there can be only ONE GOD or there is no God at all, but what has been told in different religions, the different messages, the different rituals and practices, depends upon one`s choice.
If you believe in the messages of Koran ,thats your choice and if I dont believe in those messages, its my choice. You cant generalise the things that all the Prophets/ Messengers/ Incarnations were ultimately laying foundations of the Final Religion which is Islam and which was to be reveled by Allah or God himself to Prophet Mohammed at some point of time.
Atleast I dont believe in that.
#13 Posted by paradox on July 26, 2006 2:58:13 pm
Dear all
The concept of “virgin birth” is not a knew concept. It has been used in primitive cultures of “North American Indians”. Religious concepts like these might make some sense if taken metaphorically not literally. Likewise when Jesus talks about “kingdom of God” it does not mean a kingdomon of this earth but rather , a place in the spiritual realm. To me, this seems to be the only way to make some sense of religious concepts. Otherwise how on earth can someone with right senses and reason believe in the concept of Virgin birth. Concepts like these are termed as “elementary concept” which were common “folk concept” in the ancient world.
The concept of “virgin birth” is not a knew concept. It has been used in primitive cultures of “North American Indians”. Religious concepts like these might make some sense if taken metaphorically not literally. Likewise when Jesus talks about “kingdom of God” it does not mean a kingdomon of this earth but rather , a place in the spiritual realm. To me, this seems to be the only way to make some sense of religious concepts. Otherwise how on earth can someone with right senses and reason believe in the concept of Virgin birth. Concepts like these are termed as “elementary concept” which were common “folk concept” in the ancient world.
#12 Posted by kaurasach on July 26, 2006 2:29:15 pm
Baptism simply means initiation.....what sin is an infant/child being washed of?!
as they say in punjabi ``khanba they kaan banaanay``.......mountain out of a mole hill.
These above mentioned rituals were also plaigarized/copied by muslims/Islam in one form or another.
Read Prophet of Doom website for details.
as they say in punjabi ``khanba they kaan banaanay``.......mountain out of a mole hill.
These above mentioned rituals were also plaigarized/copied by muslims/Islam in one form or another.
Read Prophet of Doom website for details.
#11 Posted by Urstruly on July 26, 2006 2:18:46 pm
#9
I do not understand your question but I will try. As far as the scrutiny of Quran is concerned, probably, there is no other book in the history of mankind that has been so rigorously scrutinized by Muslims and non-Muslims alike. In the present days, as a matter of fact, a whole industry has came into existence whose only purpose is to scrutinize this book with sole purpose of monetary gains.
It is one of the core Muslim beliefs that God has sent close to 124,000 prophets and messengers to every nation or community on this planet who delivered the message of Monotheism to the people. This chain of Prophet ends at Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) since everything that human beings needed to know about their Creator, our relationship to Him, and that between us has been explained through the books and practically through the lives of the Prophets. All the aspects of human nature have thus been addressed and revealed to human beings. This makes Islam the first and last religion of this planet.
It is also a fact of nature that the intellectual development of human beings on this planet has not happened uniformally all around. In this day of space exploration and what not there are pygmies living elsewhere who have not yet completely learned to cover themselves. So in my opinion, the message Of Monotheism to them must be in the simplest and most rudimentary form whereas for other nations it was in quite refined form. For example, the teachings of Zurthustra, basically resemble the teachings of Abrahamic religions and quite surprisingly the Monotheist message in Hinduism and associated concepts of sins, heaven, and hell are identical to its counterparts. Hence Qura`n elaborates that it is not the path that is important, it is the destination.
I do not understand your question but I will try. As far as the scrutiny of Quran is concerned, probably, there is no other book in the history of mankind that has been so rigorously scrutinized by Muslims and non-Muslims alike. In the present days, as a matter of fact, a whole industry has came into existence whose only purpose is to scrutinize this book with sole purpose of monetary gains.
It is one of the core Muslim beliefs that God has sent close to 124,000 prophets and messengers to every nation or community on this planet who delivered the message of Monotheism to the people. This chain of Prophet ends at Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) since everything that human beings needed to know about their Creator, our relationship to Him, and that between us has been explained through the books and practically through the lives of the Prophets. All the aspects of human nature have thus been addressed and revealed to human beings. This makes Islam the first and last religion of this planet.
It is also a fact of nature that the intellectual development of human beings on this planet has not happened uniformally all around. In this day of space exploration and what not there are pygmies living elsewhere who have not yet completely learned to cover themselves. So in my opinion, the message Of Monotheism to them must be in the simplest and most rudimentary form whereas for other nations it was in quite refined form. For example, the teachings of Zurthustra, basically resemble the teachings of Abrahamic religions and quite surprisingly the Monotheist message in Hinduism and associated concepts of sins, heaven, and hell are identical to its counterparts. Hence Qura`n elaborates that it is not the path that is important, it is the destination.
#10 Posted by Kamath on July 26, 2006 2:11:24 pm
Re: # 7
Mohammad:
By the way one of her books is banned in Malaysia by the government.
You have to be a bit careful about what Bishop Spong would say.. I have actually attended one of his talks and read his book. He is a very angry man and is very critical of certain things in Christianity. Karen Armstrong is a jolly good woman- a good popular talker. Her knowledge outside Abrahamic faiths is so so.
Anyway, she is very popular author and gets enough royalities ,even more than what Chopra`s ! I don`t think she needs to contribute to 401K!
Kamath
Mohammad:
By the way one of her books is banned in Malaysia by the government.
You have to be a bit careful about what Bishop Spong would say.. I have actually attended one of his talks and read his book. He is a very angry man and is very critical of certain things in Christianity. Karen Armstrong is a jolly good woman- a good popular talker. Her knowledge outside Abrahamic faiths is so so.
Anyway, she is very popular author and gets enough royalities ,even more than what Chopra`s ! I don`t think she needs to contribute to 401K!
Kamath
#9 Posted by Kamath on July 26, 2006 1:52:11 pm
Dear Urstruly :
Re: # 4
You say,``..In the Chapter 2, The Heifer, Qura`n has explicitly addressed the issue of religious chauvinism of any religion including Islam and it has shown mankind the right way to salvation....``. This makes me think!
Do you think the real Mohammed was aware that there were other faiths during his life time. If he knew, I am sure, he would have inserted additional verses to that affect. That has made millions on earth that all scriptures and holy books have to be reviewed. Remember the holiest of the books for Christians was actually examined, and actually rewritten during King James time.
Do you think Quran might get subjected critical inquiry by scholars some day soon?
Peace
Kamath
Re: # 4
You say,``..In the Chapter 2, The Heifer, Qura`n has explicitly addressed the issue of religious chauvinism of any religion including Islam and it has shown mankind the right way to salvation....``. This makes me think!
Do you think the real Mohammed was aware that there were other faiths during his life time. If he knew, I am sure, he would have inserted additional verses to that affect. That has made millions on earth that all scriptures and holy books have to be reviewed. Remember the holiest of the books for Christians was actually examined, and actually rewritten during King James time.
Do you think Quran might get subjected critical inquiry by scholars some day soon?
Peace
Kamath
#8 Posted by ijaz_gul on July 26, 2006 12:52:13 pm
Gill Sahib,
All you are doing is distorting christianity with your shallow knowledge and narrow outlook. You may claim to feel normative and value neutral but at what cost. Please go back to where you are best.
Cheerios
All you are doing is distorting christianity with your shallow knowledge and narrow outlook. You may claim to feel normative and value neutral but at what cost. Please go back to where you are best.
Cheerios
#7 Posted by freethinker on July 26, 2006 12:38:38 pm
Ijaz_gul
Thanks for your comments. I do not claim to be an authority on Christianity or on religion for that matter. At the same time I have not restricted myself to the Internet sources only. I admit I have not come to read the book you had suggested; I might come to read it some day.
Ichaim
I thank you too for your interesting and kind comments. Your comments regarding Karen Armstrong are somewhat tacky. She was a nun in the Society of the Holy Child Jesus for seven years and later wrote a ‘tell-all’ book, “Through the Narrow Gates,” (I haven’t read it. I own a couple of her books. History of God is one and the other is The Battle for God). She taught 19th and 20th century English literature at the University of London. She is the author of some 19 books, all of them on religion and comparative religion.
In her own words:
“I usually describe myself, perhaps flippantly, as a freelance monotheist. I draw sustenance from all three of the faiths of Abraham. I can’t see any one of them as having the monopoly of truth, any one of them as superior to any of the others. Each has its own particular genius and each its own particular pitfalls and Achilles’ heels. But recently, I’ve just written a short life (story) of the Buddha, and I’ve been enthralled by what he has to say about spirituality, about the ultimate, about compassion and about the necessary loss of ego before you can encounter the divine. And all the great traditions are, in my view, saying the same thing in much the same way, despite their surface differences.”
To imply that she hadn’t read the Bible (you wrote, “..but if she had read the Bible she would clearly see…”) or her knowledge of the Bible was deficient is, at the very least, very inaccurate. True, she doesn’t believe like traditional Christians but she has a vast knowledge of the Abrahamic religions.
Likewise, John Shelby Spong is a great scholar of Christianity (of Episcopalian view ); he is a retired bishop of Newark. I respect your beliefs but I wanted to draw attention to non-traditional interpretation and understanding of Christianity.
Wishing you well,
Mohammad Gill
Thanks for your comments. I do not claim to be an authority on Christianity or on religion for that matter. At the same time I have not restricted myself to the Internet sources only. I admit I have not come to read the book you had suggested; I might come to read it some day.
Ichaim
I thank you too for your interesting and kind comments. Your comments regarding Karen Armstrong are somewhat tacky. She was a nun in the Society of the Holy Child Jesus for seven years and later wrote a ‘tell-all’ book, “Through the Narrow Gates,” (I haven’t read it. I own a couple of her books. History of God is one and the other is The Battle for God). She taught 19th and 20th century English literature at the University of London. She is the author of some 19 books, all of them on religion and comparative religion.
In her own words:
“I usually describe myself, perhaps flippantly, as a freelance monotheist. I draw sustenance from all three of the faiths of Abraham. I can’t see any one of them as having the monopoly of truth, any one of them as superior to any of the others. Each has its own particular genius and each its own particular pitfalls and Achilles’ heels. But recently, I’ve just written a short life (story) of the Buddha, and I’ve been enthralled by what he has to say about spirituality, about the ultimate, about compassion and about the necessary loss of ego before you can encounter the divine. And all the great traditions are, in my view, saying the same thing in much the same way, despite their surface differences.”
To imply that she hadn’t read the Bible (you wrote, “..but if she had read the Bible she would clearly see…”) or her knowledge of the Bible was deficient is, at the very least, very inaccurate. True, she doesn’t believe like traditional Christians but she has a vast knowledge of the Abrahamic religions.
Likewise, John Shelby Spong is a great scholar of Christianity (of Episcopalian view ); he is a retired bishop of Newark. I respect your beliefs but I wanted to draw attention to non-traditional interpretation and understanding of Christianity.
Wishing you well,
Mohammad Gill
#6 Posted by Lchaim on July 26, 2006 11:10:23 am
Mr. Gill – respectfully I must cite that both the “scholars” you refer to in the article for explanation of Christianity and baptism are thought by the majority of practicing Christians to be heretics and atheists who are doing much to try and destroy the body of Christ. Therefore you can not possibly understand the concept of Christian baptism as outlined by them – so hopefully I will be able to clarify.
First, I might also clarify that technically baptism is not 100% necessary to accept Christ and “become” Christian. However, the majority of people do take on baptism.
2nd Catholics have a whole different concept of baptism (as the removal of sins and impartation of some special grace received only at that time and no time after) than non-Catholics [who see this as a statement claiming Jesus as their Savior and Lord and thereafter able to apply “grace” to their lives to follow Jesus’ commands through many situations (that non-believers obviously would not receive) - and this should lead to living a holier life and therefore sinning less and less]). It is one of the main splitting points.
Yes, as you state Jesus followed the Jewish tradition for baptism. But there were many meanings to being baptized at that time beyond ceremonial cleansing. One not only was baptized after circumcision but there were also like John many teachers and people were also baptized by a particular teacher/rabbi as a sign they agreed to follow his teachings.
The divine element in Jewish baptism is it is a sign you choose to follow God’s commands. One can not do this and not want to live a holy life, so there is no way that any Jewish baptism was purely secular. The Biblical story clearly presents that Jesus baptism was a sign God used to show people that Jesus was God and sent as the one people should listen to and follow. John told the crowd his message of baptism of repentance was not appropriate for Jesus but they now should follow Jesus because He had come with the greatest message and to baptize people into new life.
Karen Armstrong may think that hearing the voice of God was a regular thing but if she had read the Bible she would clearly see that in fact, in the OT God spoke directly to only few people and mainly prophets and whenever the majority of crowds of people did “see” or “hear” God it was thru thunder or an angel, and they were all awestruck and somewhat terrified because they could not stand in God’s holy presence. God had not talked to His people for hundreds of years (gap in time God sent messages/spoke thru OT prophets and the NT prophets) so a crowd in the NT hearing from God directly was surely a BIG BIG thing and big sign to people about who Jesus is – the Son of God! told directly to them by God – ok, most people didn’t listen or understand back then anymore than they do now, so why lots don’t believe this now is no mystery.
One statement you made is also totally false – any person entering into Christianity undergoes baptism – male or female. Why? Because each person must claim Jesus as Savior and Lord and no one else can do this for you. Your father may “vouche” for you here on earth, but to get into heaven God sees and judges YOUR heart and actions – He created each person with heart mind and soul and no one else has same heart mind and soul so it is you that must convince Him of your sincerity of belief.
Karen Armstrong is also wrong in stating the disciples did not realize Jesus’ divinity while he walked on earth. At the resurrection event of Lazarus Martha proclaimed “I believe you are the Christ, the Son of God who has come into the world.” Notice she was not one of the “12” yet as a follower she knew. Also when Jesus directly asked the 12 “who do you say that I am?” Peter replied “you are the Christ, the Son of the living God!” People who followed him knew Jesus was God from before the foundation of earth and man’s concept of time. Ok, do or can any of us with finite human mind EVER fully understand who Jesus is? Who God is (the triune nature)? Do we always believe or follow 100%? The Bible clearly says we will all only know fully only when “perfection” returns - Jesus is perfection. And when He returns at the end of time He will reveal the truth to all, believers and non-believers will see Him. The Bible also says many that have said “Lord Lord” (were baptized) never really believed or followed Him but thought they could just get baptized and get into heaven that way. This will be the most traumatic moment Jesus when sees each person face to face and reads their true heart mind and soul. And many who were baptized will realize they never fooled Him by some water act so they will not enter eternal life of happiness but be forever banished from His presence - along with many many others who clearly chose to follow other “gods” but not Jesus.
Last I also respectfully suggest that rather than this or any other socalled ``scholarly`` commentaries on God`s word you spend time reading the Bible more intensly and praying for understanding, as I do.
First, I might also clarify that technically baptism is not 100% necessary to accept Christ and “become” Christian. However, the majority of people do take on baptism.
2nd Catholics have a whole different concept of baptism (as the removal of sins and impartation of some special grace received only at that time and no time after) than non-Catholics [who see this as a statement claiming Jesus as their Savior and Lord and thereafter able to apply “grace” to their lives to follow Jesus’ commands through many situations (that non-believers obviously would not receive) - and this should lead to living a holier life and therefore sinning less and less]). It is one of the main splitting points.
Yes, as you state Jesus followed the Jewish tradition for baptism. But there were many meanings to being baptized at that time beyond ceremonial cleansing. One not only was baptized after circumcision but there were also like John many teachers and people were also baptized by a particular teacher/rabbi as a sign they agreed to follow his teachings.
The divine element in Jewish baptism is it is a sign you choose to follow God’s commands. One can not do this and not want to live a holy life, so there is no way that any Jewish baptism was purely secular. The Biblical story clearly presents that Jesus baptism was a sign God used to show people that Jesus was God and sent as the one people should listen to and follow. John told the crowd his message of baptism of repentance was not appropriate for Jesus but they now should follow Jesus because He had come with the greatest message and to baptize people into new life.
Karen Armstrong may think that hearing the voice of God was a regular thing but if she had read the Bible she would clearly see that in fact, in the OT God spoke directly to only few people and mainly prophets and whenever the majority of crowds of people did “see” or “hear” God it was thru thunder or an angel, and they were all awestruck and somewhat terrified because they could not stand in God’s holy presence. God had not talked to His people for hundreds of years (gap in time God sent messages/spoke thru OT prophets and the NT prophets) so a crowd in the NT hearing from God directly was surely a BIG BIG thing and big sign to people about who Jesus is – the Son of God! told directly to them by God – ok, most people didn’t listen or understand back then anymore than they do now, so why lots don’t believe this now is no mystery.
One statement you made is also totally false – any person entering into Christianity undergoes baptism – male or female. Why? Because each person must claim Jesus as Savior and Lord and no one else can do this for you. Your father may “vouche” for you here on earth, but to get into heaven God sees and judges YOUR heart and actions – He created each person with heart mind and soul and no one else has same heart mind and soul so it is you that must convince Him of your sincerity of belief.
Karen Armstrong is also wrong in stating the disciples did not realize Jesus’ divinity while he walked on earth. At the resurrection event of Lazarus Martha proclaimed “I believe you are the Christ, the Son of God who has come into the world.” Notice she was not one of the “12” yet as a follower she knew. Also when Jesus directly asked the 12 “who do you say that I am?” Peter replied “you are the Christ, the Son of the living God!” People who followed him knew Jesus was God from before the foundation of earth and man’s concept of time. Ok, do or can any of us with finite human mind EVER fully understand who Jesus is? Who God is (the triune nature)? Do we always believe or follow 100%? The Bible clearly says we will all only know fully only when “perfection” returns - Jesus is perfection. And when He returns at the end of time He will reveal the truth to all, believers and non-believers will see Him. The Bible also says many that have said “Lord Lord” (were baptized) never really believed or followed Him but thought they could just get baptized and get into heaven that way. This will be the most traumatic moment Jesus when sees each person face to face and reads their true heart mind and soul. And many who were baptized will realize they never fooled Him by some water act so they will not enter eternal life of happiness but be forever banished from His presence - along with many many others who clearly chose to follow other “gods” but not Jesus.
Last I also respectfully suggest that rather than this or any other socalled ``scholarly`` commentaries on God`s word you spend time reading the Bible more intensly and praying for understanding, as I do.
#5 Posted by ijaz_gul on July 26, 2006 7:27:40 am
Poor show Gill Sahib. The least you could have done was to have researched deeper. Why rely on the net alone?
I once agian suggest what I did on your essay on Mary Magdalene. Please read the Roman Cathoilic cathechism. For your convenience it also has a good alphabatical index.
I once agian suggest what I did on your essay on Mary Magdalene. Please read the Roman Cathoilic cathechism. For your convenience it also has a good alphabatical index.
#4 Posted by Urstruly on July 26, 2006 7:02:37 am
Quran`s Take on the Ritual of Baptism
In the Chapter 2, The Heifer, Qura`n has explicitly addressed the issue of religious chauvinism of any religion including Islam and it has shown mankind the right way to salvation. The back ground of the following verses is that everyone among the religions of Christianity, Judaism, Islam claim - and logic can be implied to any religion - that their path is the only path to the Salvation. The Holy Qura`n explains that it is not important which path you follow but it is important where this path leads you to.
In the following verses Qura`n addresses the Christian and Judism chauvinism and defines the righteous destination, and that destination is the Absolute Monotheism. Both Jews and Christians consider Abraham (pbuh) to be the rightly guided one. So Qura`n asks them if everybody agrees on the religion of Abraham (pbuh) then why the schism?:
2:.135
And they say: Be Jews or Christians, you will be on the right course. Say: Nay! (we follow) the religion of Ibrahim, the Truth, and he was not one of the polytheists.
In the next verse Quran explicitly establish the rules of conduct that it is forbidden to distinguish between Prophets whose only message was Monotheism.
2:136 Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Musa and Isa, and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.
In the next verse Allah explicitly establishes that it is destination i.e. Submission to One God that is important and paths to get there become irrelevant as meaningless rituals, in this case the Judiac and Christian ritual of Baptism is being addressed:
2.138
(Our religion i.e Submission to One God is) the Baptism of Allah: And who can baptize better than Allah? And it is He Whom we worship.
#3 Posted by kaptain on July 26, 2006 5:42:18 am
Nice.
Informative.
Discovered the interest of other Religions.
Jesus on Earth was not God. He left back disciples to spoil the broth and lose the original print of Gospel as well.
``Insaan.Darakht.Ka.Patta.Ya.Chiyunti.Ka.Sir.To.Nahi.Bana.Sakta.Per.Hazaaroan.Khuda.Bana.Sakta.Hai``
Informative.
Discovered the interest of other Religions.
Jesus on Earth was not God. He left back disciples to spoil the broth and lose the original print of Gospel as well.
``Insaan.Darakht.Ka.Patta.Ya.Chiyunti.Ka.Sir.To.Nahi.Bana.Sakta.Per.Hazaaroan.Khuda.Bana.Sakta.Hai``
#2 Posted by injun on July 26, 2006 3:02:29 am
Gone over my head...
Nevertheless tha analogy between `Ganga-Snan` and baptism is interesting.
Do you mean to say that Jews/Christians commit sin only once so they require baptism only once and a Hindu commits paap every day so he requires Ganga-snan every now and then??????????????????????????
Nevertheless tha analogy between `Ganga-Snan` and baptism is interesting.
Do you mean to say that Jews/Christians commit sin only once so they require baptism only once and a Hindu commits paap every day so he requires Ganga-snan every now and then??????????????????????????
#1 Posted by ballukhan on July 26, 2006 1:38:49 am
``Christianity is an outgrowth of Judaism like Ahmadism and Baha’ism are outgrowth from traditional Islam. Islam can be considered an outgrowth from Christianity and Judaism in as much as it is claimed that it replaced both of them because their holy books had been corrupted by deliberate additions and interpolations. ``
``So Jesus’ baptism was a traditional Jewish event; he was baptized as every one else used to be. He was deified a long time after his baptism. ``
I am no scholar on christian theology.....still, does this issue merit any of my attention?? I doubt!!
``So Jesus’ baptism was a traditional Jewish event; he was baptized as every one else used to be. He was deified a long time after his baptism. ``
I am no scholar on christian theology.....still, does this issue merit any of my attention?? I doubt!!
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