Selling Spirituality

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re: # 155

Dear Echoboom....I always address with you with respect. I have nothing against you.

You do not know me personally. You have some strong feelings about some groups

whether humanists or psychotherapists. My conscience is clear.

You do not have to interact with me if you are offended with anything I write.

I am just amused that a man with your intelligence and faith treats other human beings in

an insulting way and bring out the worst in them.

. In the future I will not respond if you used a disrespectful language.

Have a nice day. sincerely sohail

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re: # 153
Dear Echoboom....we are discussing how pseudo-mystics misguide innocent and vulnerable

people and take advantage of naive people. How is your posting related to that subject?

The way you address free thinkers as ...`secularoons, liberaloons, munafiqoons and

murtadoons` sound disrespectful....respectfully....sohail

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#151 by Mantolives

There is NO death penalty for Apostasy under Pakistani law. However... the recriminations would be similar I admit and it is common South Asian problem.

South Asian problem? Nice try, but no cigar. Have you ever heard Hindus converting to Islam being killed? OTOH, I can show Muslims who were killed for leaving Islam.

Harish mian,

Your lack of general knowledge is appalling.

There is NO death penalty for Apostasy under Pakistani law. However... the recriminations would be similar I admit and it is common South Asian problem.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re: # 148

just sharing my humble thoughts...not aiming for perfection...smiles

nice article;
very practicle approach :)

further to #146 actually i took another quick look at your post and see you dont refer to the train bombing but to church bombings in pakistan and use that as an opportunity to assure me that i am a lier.

that is fine. you are welcome to think whatever you like. you remain a hindu fanatic smoldering with hate as is clear from your earlier posts.

now bye bye for sure. :-)

#144 I am really not interested in your views (having learnt all i need to learn about your way of thinking, which is basically that of a religious nut). So i didnt read through your lengthy post although i can see that (quite predictably) you refer to the train bombings today and no doubt use that as an opportunity to stand on a moral pedestal. bye bye.

swarrier #143 Good post.

I agree with your basic point to the extent that public service and/or charity in hopes of ``rewards in the next world`` is not really public service but a form of pension planning (with the pension starting the day one retires to the ``next world``). And not knowing enough about MT, I will accept that what you say about MT working within the church framework. I will also agree charity by Gates or Buffet (i.e. non-religious) is not based on any such expectations. And I agree that priests (any religion) contribute very little value to society when they perform religious rituals. And they take away a lot (a tithe or tenth of the farmer`s output used to be the norm in europe, e.g.).

So far so good. Moving the discussion forwards:

1. I think you underestimate the value of MTs. It has in fact withstood the ``market test`` in the sense that the individuals benefitting were there by choice. So, it is not for you or I or anyone else to say that they should not have made this choice or that their choices were foolish. Maybe if you or I had been in their unfortunate shoes, we would have done exactly what they did - seek help from MT. So, by the rules of the free market - MT provided value to society.

2. I also dont think that there is a black vs white moral difference in religious vs secular motivations. According to the generally accepted Maslow`s hierarchy of needs, after a certain standard of living is met, additional wealth is not a great motivator (indeed, economists are now reaching agreement that a per capita income of around $12000 is the cut-off point). After that the most significant factor becomes the following: 1. inner satisfaction from one`s efforts; and 2. external recognition of one`s work. And no doubt, the ``pension plan`` of the religiously motivated is another factor for man charity givers. But as Mao said - who cares if the cat is black or white as long as it catches mice: in other words, regardless of motivating factors, what is important is that both buffet and teresa directed their resources (money and time respectively) for public service at a global scale. So hats off to both of them.

No need to apologize for your lengthy post - the above post is equally lengthy. But if it makes half the sense your post does, then I think it has been worth the time taken to write it. :-)

#142 by tahmed32

[#140 this is just another hindu fantasy: the fact is that there is no law against ``apostasy`` in pakistan. apostasy is not even an issue in pakistan as it is with you hindus. and there is no resentment against christian missionaries among pakistanis as among hindus (as is clear from chowk as well). ]

Is that why churches are bombed in Pakistan? Here`s a post from the Pakistan Christian Post that shows what a shameless liar you are:

``MINORITES UNSAFE IN PAKISTAN. By Abbas Kassar. PCP Report

HYDERABAD. January 14, 2004:Representatives of Christian Community of Karachi and Hyderabad have demanded cancellation of double registration of YMCA Karachi and hand over it to real and legal representatives of Christians. Addressing news conference here on Wednesday former MPAs Micheal Javed, and Salem Khurshid Khokar who is also president of YMCA Karachi said that YMCA was registered in 1913 under Societies Act 1860 whose office bearers were present but the representatives of Christian community of Karachi cannot enter into YMCA today. They said Social Welfare Department of Sindh has made double registration of YMCA under fear and favor and under political pressure bypassing the law. They said Social Welfare Department was involved in unlawful act to appease its ministers and advisors who want to occupy the YMCA its property and building. They alleged that Social Welfare Department in collusion of land mafia wants to destroy this institution. Members of district city government Karachi Younis Khan, Ishaq Inayet, Samuel Nazir, Anwer Lal Din and Yousuf Gill; Binjamin Andrew, Richard Arif and Imran Gill Christian leaders from Hyderabad were also present on the occasion. They said that the situation has reached to such climax that their Bishops in Pakistan have to approach Bishop of Canterbury and Church of England to seek their help for their protection and respect of their places of worship and to save their institutions. They said that minority leaders in Pakistan feel themselves so unsafe and under compulsion that due to fear in performing their religious rites in their Churches they have to call for help to foreign missionaries. The expressed apprehension that Social Welfare Department wanted to sale the precious land of YMCA in collaboration of its Supervising Committee and secret power. They alleged that Sindh Governor has shut his eyes over the issue of YMCA, which was just opposite Governor House.

They demanded from President and Prime Minister of Pakistan and Sindh government to provide them protection of life honor and property and restore the YMCA to real and legal representatives of Christian community by canceling its double registration. They also demanded action against those involved in corruption and refund of looted property of YMCA through National Accountability Bureau.``





[and it is only hindus whom i see running to chowk to condemn pakistanis as being ``converts`` . thus inadvertantly revealing hindu resentment against ``apostasy``.]


You are a liar, like your good friend Mantolives. Why don`t you cite a few posts that prove your point? We have resentment against forced conversions. When people convert because of a change of heart, nobody resents that. But those things never happen en masse - as happens with conversions to Islam. The history books, often written by court historians of Muslim emperors, are full of examples of forced conversions of Hindus. One needs to be a shameless and cunning liar with a very low self-respect who would turn a blind eye to all that.


[And no doubt you people have much to be afraid of - because the downtrodden in hindu society are told that this is punishment for their sins. and so the downtrodden are quite pleased to get out of this evil caste system and commit...apostasy.]

This is another lie. Intelligent and educated people hardly ever convert to Islam, because they see it for the evil it is. Islam usually spreads well amongst people who have an axe to grind against society. This is why it is the fastest growing religion amongst criminals in prisons all over the world. Like communism, Islam tries to utilize existing resentments and incite hostilities. Have you noticed how conversion to Islam has dropped dramatically amongst the poor people in India after the end of the Islamic rulers?

In any case, regardless of any reasoning you may give, the overarching and all-encompassing point is that ALL of Islam rests on the credibility of a pedophile and a mass murderer. You can huff and you can pufff, and you can rationalize till the cows come home, but you muslims will never gain respectibility in the eyes of other people PRECISELY BECAUSE OF THIS POINT.

Re: # 139
Tahmed
I apologise if I did not answer your questions directly, I thought I had. And I don`t want you to change your opinion on MT because of what I said. But....

Again to address your questions
``Nunneries and convents do not produce terrorists do they? Only bearded mullahs, politiicians .....``. That is what you said.
I say you are wrong. Half the problem in the North East of India is because of these stupid fundamentalist baptists funding the fights.. A lot of the killing is done by various sects of the Christians themselves. The Baptists kill Catholic priests etc. . Do you think the Crusades were not instigated by the Roman Catholic Church? Any religiious order is capable of grievious harm. But that is not the crux of my argument about MT. My argument is that she sells spirituality just like anybody else and therefore should not be venerated.

You say she helps the poor and downtrodden. How exactly? Giving them free food that with all the money they have could be at least nutritious. Instead the poor are given gruel. Does she care about medical facilities. No , God wills who will live and who will die. But when she fell ill she checked into a clinic in California.
What is this improvement that MT has done for the poor of Calcutta with all the money at her disposal? Taken them off the streets to die in a building? Provided them nothing in the way of skills to lead a life. I tell you , most of the poor would rather live with dignity than die with dignity. Most of them would rather have medical care in a decent hospital than shiver naked in hospital gowns on a 2X5 stretcher on the floor. I say muncipal hospitals in India have done more for the ill and poor with much less. So have the barefoot doctors.

Rajneesh helped a lot of confused people too. He improved Poona`s economy, had the best bakery in town where we could purchase excellent bread. Now it doesn`t matter if they were rich. Are the confused rich less important than the poor? Or do you pander to the Christian excuse that it is more difficult for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God than a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. We are just programmed to think that way. I say Bill Gates is doing more for the poor than MT. I bet some of those Sisters will be at the Gates foundation with the begging bowls.

``Is religious ideology more important than the welfare of the weak and the poor?``
You tell me. This is obviously what MT believed. There is no record of all the money that her organisation got. It is said that the day to day running of all the places she started in the world needs barely a tenth of the donations that her organisation recieved since the facilities were so primitive. What about the vatican bank receiving money? As I said earlier it was MT`s belief that poverty is good, that medical care is bad (unless she fell ill , then she came to California to get treated), divorce is bad (till the wonderful princess Di had problems) dictators are good (she went to Haiti to receive donations). Tahmed feeding the poor is one thing, but teaching them to live with dignity is far more important and she had the money to make a real change. But no, no hospitals, no worthwhile schools only this stupid ``God wills...``.

And she did not leave a comfortable life in Europe, she was already in a convent at 12. Perhaps that was the only way she could have been anything in Macedonia. The 1920`s was hardly a time when Macedonia was the centre of world commerce. That was probably around 326 BC. I can twist Jane Austen and be very sexist and very brutal and say ``A single women without the possession of good looks or fortune must be in search of God``.

Now coming to the money not being in India. I don`t think I ever said that. I said the money is not kept in India because the Indian government demands audits from all organisations engaged in Missionary activities. I`m complaining about the auditing of the organisation. You know the Indira Gandhi foundation headed by our very own Italian bahu is not audited either. But we know politicians are crooks. However Caesar`s wife must always be above suspicion. I don`t care where the money is kept as long as somebody knows where the donations go. There is no trail.



Don`t bring religion into the issue. I do not support any stupid Hindu holy man either. I have lttle use for holy men or women or for temples that charge money to stand in a separate line to get a quicker darshan. My son`s room is a temple to the Arsenal Football Club and there is more devotion there than in any religious building.

That is why I took the example of Baba Amte. He doesn`t talk about ``God wills ...... ``.



I got into this because some poster said that MT had to be venerated. I don`t think so.

And it looks like from BJ`s post, FV is of the same opinion too. I knew we`d agree on some things. -)

I`ve no beef with you by the way. If you agreed with me I wouldn`t be able to write all this. -)

Now I`m off, but I cannot resist this hoary chestnut.
MT vessels make the most noise. -)

#140 this is just another hindu fantasy: the fact is that there is no law against ``apostasy`` in pakistan. apostasy is not even an issue in pakistan as it is with you hindus. and there is no resentment against christian missionaries among pakistanis as among hindus (as is clear from chowk as well).

and it is only hindus whom i see running to chowk to condemn pakistanis as being ``converts`` . thus inadvertantly revealing hindu resentment against ``apostasy``. And no doubt you people have much to be afraid of - because the downtrodden in hindu society are told that this is punishment for their sins. and so the downtrodden are quite pleased to get out of this evil caste system and commit...apostasy.