Selling Spirituality

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Re: # 155

Dear Echoboom....I always address with you with respect. I have nothing against you.

You do not know me personally. You have some strong feelings about some groups

whether humanists or psychotherapists. My conscience is clear.

You do not have to interact with me if you are offended with anything I write.

I am just amused that a man with your intelligence and faith treats other human beings in

an insulting way and bring out the worst in them.

. In the future I will not respond if you used a disrespectful language.

Have a nice day. sincerely sohail

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Re: # 153
Dear Echoboom....we are discussing how pseudo-mystics misguide innocent and vulnerable

people and take advantage of naive people. How is your posting related to that subject?

The way you address free thinkers as ...`secularoons, liberaloons, munafiqoons and

murtadoons` sound disrespectful....respectfully....sohail

#151 by Mantolives

There is NO death penalty for Apostasy under Pakistani law. However... the recriminations would be similar I admit and it is common South Asian problem.

South Asian problem? Nice try, but no cigar. Have you ever heard Hindus converting to Islam being killed? OTOH, I can show Muslims who were killed for leaving Islam.

Harish mian,

Your lack of general knowledge is appalling.

There is NO death penalty for Apostasy under Pakistani law. However... the recriminations would be similar I admit and it is common South Asian problem.

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nice article;
very practicle approach :)

Re: # 148

just sharing my humble thoughts...not aiming for perfection...smiles

further to #146 actually i took another quick look at your post and see you dont refer to the train bombing but to church bombings in pakistan and use that as an opportunity to assure me that i am a lier.

that is fine. you are welcome to think whatever you like. you remain a hindu fanatic smoldering with hate as is clear from your earlier posts.

now bye bye for sure. :-)

#144 I am really not interested in your views (having learnt all i need to learn about your way of thinking, which is basically that of a religious nut). So i didnt read through your lengthy post although i can see that (quite predictably) you refer to the train bombings today and no doubt use that as an opportunity to stand on a moral pedestal. bye bye.

swarrier #143 Good post.

I agree with your basic point to the extent that public service and/or charity in hopes of ``rewards in the next world`` is not really public service but a form of pension planning (with the pension starting the day one retires to the ``next world``). And not knowing enough about MT, I will accept that what you say about MT working within the church framework. I will also agree charity by Gates or Buffet (i.e. non-religious) is not based on any such expectations. And I agree that priests (any religion) contribute very little value to society when they perform religious rituals. And they take away a lot (a tithe or tenth of the farmer`s output used to be the norm in europe, e.g.).

So far so good. Moving the discussion forwards:

1. I think you underestimate the value of MTs. It has in fact withstood the ``market test`` in the sense that the individuals benefitting were there by choice. So, it is not for you or I or anyone else to say that they should not have made this choice or that their choices were foolish. Maybe if you or I had been in their unfortunate shoes, we would have done exactly what they did - seek help from MT. So, by the rules of the free market - MT provided value to society.

2. I also dont think that there is a black vs white moral difference in religious vs secular motivations. According to the generally accepted Maslow`s hierarchy of needs, after a certain standard of living is met, additional wealth is not a great motivator (indeed, economists are now reaching agreement that a per capita income of around $12000 is the cut-off point). After that the most significant factor becomes the following: 1. inner satisfaction from one`s efforts; and 2. external recognition of one`s work. And no doubt, the ``pension plan`` of the religiously motivated is another factor for man charity givers. But as Mao said - who cares if the cat is black or white as long as it catches mice: in other words, regardless of motivating factors, what is important is that both buffet and teresa directed their resources (money and time respectively) for public service at a global scale. So hats off to both of them.

No need to apologize for your lengthy post - the above post is equally lengthy. But if it makes half the sense your post does, then I think it has been worth the time taken to write it. :-)

#142 by tahmed32

[#140 this is just another hindu fantasy: the fact is that there is no law against ``apostasy`` in pakistan. apostasy is not even an issue in pakistan as it is with you hindus. and there is no resentment against christian missionaries among pakistanis as among hindus (as is clear from chowk as well). ]

Is that why churches are bombed in Pakistan? Here`s a post from the Pakistan Christian Post that shows what a shameless liar you are:

``MINORITES UNSAFE IN PAKISTAN. By Abbas Kassar. PCP Report

HYDERABAD. January 14, 2004:Representatives of Christian Community of Karachi and Hyderabad have demanded cancellation of double registration of YMCA Karachi and hand over it to real and legal representatives of Christians. Addressing news conference here on Wednesday former MPAs Micheal Javed, and Salem Khurshid Khokar who is also president of YMCA Karachi said that YMCA was registered in 1913 under Societies Act 1860 whose office bearers were present but the representatives of Christian community of Karachi cannot enter into YMCA today. They said Social Welfare Department of Sindh has made double registration of YMCA under fear and favor and under political pressure bypassing the law. They said Social Welfare Department was involved in unlawful act to appease its ministers and advisors who want to occupy the YMCA its property and building. They alleged that Social Welfare Department in collusion of land mafia wants to destroy this institution. Members of district city government Karachi Younis Khan, Ishaq Inayet, Samuel Nazir, Anwer Lal Din and Yousuf Gill; Binjamin Andrew, Richard Arif and Imran Gill Christian leaders from Hyderabad were also present on the occasion. They said that the situation has reached to such climax that their Bishops in Pakistan have to approach Bishop of Canterbury and Church of England to seek their help for their protection and respect of their places of worship and to save their institutions. They said that minority leaders in Pakistan feel themselves so unsafe and under compulsion that due to fear in performing their religious rites in their Churches they have to call for help to foreign missionaries. The expressed apprehension that Social Welfare Department wanted to sale the precious land of YMCA in collaboration of its Supervising Committee and secret power. They alleged that Sindh Governor has shut his eyes over the issue of YMCA, which was just opposite Governor House.

They demanded from President and Prime Minister of Pakistan and Sindh government to provide them protection of life honor and property and restore the YMCA to real and legal representatives of Christian community by canceling its double registration. They also demanded action against those involved in corruption and refund of looted property of YMCA through National Accountability Bureau.``





[and it is only hindus whom i see running to chowk to condemn pakistanis as being ``converts`` . thus inadvertantly revealing hindu resentment against ``apostasy``.]


You are a liar, like your good friend Mantolives. Why don`t you cite a few posts that prove your point? We have resentment against forced conversions. When people convert because of a change of heart, nobody resents that. But those things never happen en masse - as happens with conversions to Islam. The history books, often written by court historians of Muslim emperors, are full of examples of forced conversions of Hindus. One needs to be a shameless and cunning liar with a very low self-respect who would turn a blind eye to all that.


[And no doubt you people have much to be afraid of - because the downtrodden in hindu society are told that this is punishment for their sins. and so the downtrodden are quite pleased to get out of this evil caste system and commit...apostasy.]

This is another lie. Intelligent and educated people hardly ever convert to Islam, because they see it for the evil it is. Islam usually spreads well amongst people who have an axe to grind against society. This is why it is the fastest growing religion amongst criminals in prisons all over the world. Like communism, Islam tries to utilize existing resentments and incite hostilities. Have you noticed how conversion to Islam has dropped dramatically amongst the poor people in India after the end of the Islamic rulers?

In any case, regardless of any reasoning you may give, the overarching and all-encompassing point is that ALL of Islam rests on the credibility of a pedophile and a mass murderer. You can huff and you can pufff, and you can rationalize till the cows come home, but you muslims will never gain respectibility in the eyes of other people PRECISELY BECAUSE OF THIS POINT.

#140 this is just another hindu fantasy: the fact is that there is no law against ``apostasy`` in pakistan. apostasy is not even an issue in pakistan as it is with you hindus. and there is no resentment against christian missionaries among pakistanis as among hindus (as is clear from chowk as well).

and it is only hindus whom i see running to chowk to condemn pakistanis as being ``converts`` . thus inadvertantly revealing hindu resentment against ``apostasy``. And no doubt you people have much to be afraid of - because the downtrodden in hindu society are told that this is punishment for their sins. and so the downtrodden are quite pleased to get out of this evil caste system and commit...apostasy.

#140 is in response to #139 by tahmed32.