Lament of a Disillusioned Citizen
Fareeha Choudhry June 21, 2006
#17 Posted by ballukhan on June 21, 2006 11:17:06 pm
Re: # 6
I think the biggest event in this sub-continent in this decade was the turning of a State from being a religious state to a Secular one....
It is easier to find new nations with some majority religious population moving towards adaption of a religious identity especially Islamic.......but the opposite is really a rare occasion.........
Why it has escaped the attention of the Pakistani intellectuals is something I fail to understand.....atleast Ayaz Amir has broached this issue by hinting at what he implies about the ``Islamic`` Republic of Pakistan!! Pakistan can certainly emulate Nepal and turn from an Islamic State to a Secular State like Nepal !
I think the biggest event in this sub-continent in this decade was the turning of a State from being a religious state to a Secular one....
It is easier to find new nations with some majority religious population moving towards adaption of a religious identity especially Islamic.......but the opposite is really a rare occasion.........
Why it has escaped the attention of the Pakistani intellectuals is something I fail to understand.....atleast Ayaz Amir has broached this issue by hinting at what he implies about the ``Islamic`` Republic of Pakistan!! Pakistan can certainly emulate Nepal and turn from an Islamic State to a Secular State like Nepal !
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#19 Posted by ahmedmadani on June 22, 2006 12:21:42 am
General has given lot to country even with some problems. Musharraf is Jinnah today. Hope he rules for next 12 years. Two decades under him can transform Country and he is only able to care of terrorists. I think too dwarfs are criticizing him due thier own inferiority complex jelosy and greed. Whether one likes or not today Pakistan is Gen P.Musharraf. I doubt light wt civies like BB or Nawaz amount to anything. But MQM Chief counts all others have to no value.
#20 Posted by majumdar on June 22, 2006 1:30:58 am
Dear Ahmed sahib
(Whether one likes or not today Pakistan is Gen P.Musharraf. )
Such sentiments are not unique to Pakistan. Once it was said India is Indira, Indira is India. But 21 years after he death, India is possibly a much stronger country. Give your country and countrymen a chance.
Regards
(Whether one likes or not today Pakistan is Gen P.Musharraf. )
Such sentiments are not unique to Pakistan. Once it was said India is Indira, Indira is India. But 21 years after he death, India is possibly a much stronger country. Give your country and countrymen a chance.
Regards
#21 Posted by harish_hyd on June 22, 2006 1:56:13 am
#19 by ahmedmadani
Musharraf is Jinnah today.
How very true! Pakistan was never as divided as it is today, thanks to the budding Jinnah.
Musharraf is Jinnah today.
How very true! Pakistan was never as divided as it is today, thanks to the budding Jinnah.
#22 Posted by rf786 on June 22, 2006 2:38:43 am
Re: # 21
Harish Jee,
App tho punjay jhar ke pakistan aur Jinnah ke bhund ke pechay pargay hein, kiun qibla koi khaas project hai kia?
{Pakistan was never as divided as it is today, thanks to the budding Jinnah}
Yaar, take a break, a kit-kat break, even better watch Fifa world cup its really very interesting, so much massalla dude with all those crummy third world countries trying to beat the much better developed countries, can u believe it, their audacity to challenge the high and mighty. Thoba thoba thoba....phitkaar inpay....the gist of all this BS is get a life dude...
Harish Jee,
App tho punjay jhar ke pakistan aur Jinnah ke bhund ke pechay pargay hein, kiun qibla koi khaas project hai kia?
{Pakistan was never as divided as it is today, thanks to the budding Jinnah}
Yaar, take a break, a kit-kat break, even better watch Fifa world cup its really very interesting, so much massalla dude with all those crummy third world countries trying to beat the much better developed countries, can u believe it, their audacity to challenge the high and mighty. Thoba thoba thoba....phitkaar inpay....the gist of all this BS is get a life dude...
#23 Posted by harish_hyd on June 22, 2006 2:42:21 am
#22 by rf786
App tho punjay jhar ke pakistan aur Jinnah ke bhund ke pechay pargay hein, kiun qibla koi khaas project hai kia?
Hmm..pet hate samjho :-)
Thoba thoba thoba....phitkaar inpay....the gist of all this BS is get a life dude...
Bhai RF, you need to come up with better arguments than that. And yes, that really sounded like BS.
App tho punjay jhar ke pakistan aur Jinnah ke bhund ke pechay pargay hein, kiun qibla koi khaas project hai kia?
Hmm..pet hate samjho :-)
Thoba thoba thoba....phitkaar inpay....the gist of all this BS is get a life dude...
Bhai RF, you need to come up with better arguments than that. And yes, that really sounded like BS.
#24 Posted by rf786 on June 22, 2006 2:48:43 am
Re: # 23
Challo yaar, aap khush tho hum bhee khush....
Challo yaar, aap khush tho hum bhee khush....
#25 Posted by Faraz-Ahmed on June 22, 2006 5:18:39 am
Not sure why do we have so many despondents here.Mush is trying to make the best out of the situation.He has had to make compromises with lotas of the Q league and Patriots but that was defintely the only option to keep the bigger evils NS and BB out of the game.
Atleast we do not have any major top level corruption stories coming out which was an everyday routine in the glorious democratic era of the 90`s.
I agree a lot needs to be done in the social sectors but keeping in view the resource crunch mush is doing the best.Economic indicators are healthy,police reforms are taking place,media is independant and free,investment is flowing in.Why can we not be more patient?
Give this guy some more time.He has to clear the mess created by 50 yrs of large scale
mismanagement.Lets not be too idealistic,be prectical and do consider the extrenal challenges we are all facing.
Atleast we do not have any major top level corruption stories coming out which was an everyday routine in the glorious democratic era of the 90`s.
I agree a lot needs to be done in the social sectors but keeping in view the resource crunch mush is doing the best.Economic indicators are healthy,police reforms are taking place,media is independant and free,investment is flowing in.Why can we not be more patient?
Give this guy some more time.He has to clear the mess created by 50 yrs of large scale
mismanagement.Lets not be too idealistic,be prectical and do consider the extrenal challenges we are all facing.
#26 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on June 22, 2006 8:24:28 am
hshahbaz #14, {``Mr. Saleem Chauhan you have certainly enlightened us with many problems that face us before elections, democracy and civilian rule but may I ask you who exactly will fulfill these demands. Mr. President, maybe, who has nothing more important to do than to hang on to power ( or his uniform). ``}
Shahbaz Sahib,
May I ask you who is going to facilitate the implementation of ``democracy`` under the old, failed, and unfair rules? The same person - yes, Mr. President, the general. If I am told correctly, it was another Mohajir general, Mirza Aslam Baig, who conducted the last transition to ``democracy.`` This was one of the two or three times in Pakistan`s history when a government in power allowed a new government to take over without the benefit of a war, a defeat, riots, or a coup.
{``Sir, please first read the article which clearly states that democracy evolves through mistakes and you cannot abolish democracy for the reason that one or two leaders were a failure. Sir, USA did not put aside democracy after the Watergate scandal. ``}
Again Mr. Shabaz,
I read the article and found it to be a rather lengthy rehash of the same old arguments for the restoration of ``democracy`` or ``legalized looting.`` A few mistakes here and there may be acceptable, but now come on - even baseball, that most boring of human interactions, has a ``three strikes and you are out`` rule. Democracy is not a recent invention that needs to be refined through a trial and error ordeal. United India, from which Pakistan was painfully extracted, started as a democracy and has matured into a viable nation without resorting to gimmicks that are intended to ensure the hegemony of one selfish province. If democracy is paramount, may I suggest that Pakistan reunify with really democratic India and stop this tinkering with pseudo-democratic facades. Why must Pakis insist in ``discovering`` a vaccine against polio when there are other diseases such as AIDS that really need a cure?
{``Although I might disagree with some of your points I do agree with them on the whole and the only way they will ever be implemented is through an established democracy and civilian rule. ``}
Sir, let me guess. The point that you disagree with me is the repatriation of ``stranded`` Pakis in Bangladesh. Obviously, you too must be from Punjab. No need to defend yourself, Mr. Tahmed3 has already performed a passionate display of racism, hatred, provincialism, while totally ridiculing his pretensions of being Muslim in the process.
{``As far the Punjabi part goes you seem to be a much more biased man against Punjab than the author is against any region. How do you propose to control an even further divided Pakistan while already the provinces are being kept together through the barrel of the military’s gun? I feel that the author has spoken a much needed truth and rather than complaining about the minor mistakes in the govt. has identified the responsible source, the President. ``}
Shabash, Mr. Shahbaz,
There you go again. While defending the author`s attempt to guarantee Punjabi hegemony over the rest of Pakistan, you are accusing me of being biased. Sir, from its inception, Pakistan has been plagued by Punjabi designs to ensure their ascendancy. Let`s look at some of the ridiculous yet effective means by which Punjabis have skirted around democracy. In United India, where Hindus had the majority, one man one vote was not good enough - parity was needed. In the former united Pakistan, where Bengalis were a slight majority, one man one vote was not good enough - parity was established, even using the stupid idea of ``One Unit.`` After losing East Pakistan by ignoring the results of an election, the Punjabis now want to install ``democracy,`` based on one man one vote. Please use some common sense. The first time you make fools out of us, shame on you. The second and third times you do that, shame on us. The people of Karachi are not going to sit idly by while you Punjabis once again use ``democracy`` to install corrupt regimes and use the Paki Army to slaughter our people and loot our city.
As for general and democracy, let me give you a history lesson. George Washington, a general, helped to create and foster what is called American democracy. Kemal Ataturk, another military genius, forcefully brought democracy to Turkey. Gen. Aslam Baig, a Paki Mohajir general, restored democracy to the nation. Unfortunately, the Benazir and Nawaz ``democratic`` governments alternated in their grotesque looting of Pakistan. Mushy might not be the brightest or the best, but can we really afford another round with these corrupt ``sons and daughters of the soil?`` Perhaps, your issue and the author`s lament are driven by the fact that Mushy is a Mohajir?
Shahbaz Sahib,
May I ask you who is going to facilitate the implementation of ``democracy`` under the old, failed, and unfair rules? The same person - yes, Mr. President, the general. If I am told correctly, it was another Mohajir general, Mirza Aslam Baig, who conducted the last transition to ``democracy.`` This was one of the two or three times in Pakistan`s history when a government in power allowed a new government to take over without the benefit of a war, a defeat, riots, or a coup.
{``Sir, please first read the article which clearly states that democracy evolves through mistakes and you cannot abolish democracy for the reason that one or two leaders were a failure. Sir, USA did not put aside democracy after the Watergate scandal. ``}
Again Mr. Shabaz,
I read the article and found it to be a rather lengthy rehash of the same old arguments for the restoration of ``democracy`` or ``legalized looting.`` A few mistakes here and there may be acceptable, but now come on - even baseball, that most boring of human interactions, has a ``three strikes and you are out`` rule. Democracy is not a recent invention that needs to be refined through a trial and error ordeal. United India, from which Pakistan was painfully extracted, started as a democracy and has matured into a viable nation without resorting to gimmicks that are intended to ensure the hegemony of one selfish province. If democracy is paramount, may I suggest that Pakistan reunify with really democratic India and stop this tinkering with pseudo-democratic facades. Why must Pakis insist in ``discovering`` a vaccine against polio when there are other diseases such as AIDS that really need a cure?
{``Although I might disagree with some of your points I do agree with them on the whole and the only way they will ever be implemented is through an established democracy and civilian rule. ``}
Sir, let me guess. The point that you disagree with me is the repatriation of ``stranded`` Pakis in Bangladesh. Obviously, you too must be from Punjab. No need to defend yourself, Mr. Tahmed3 has already performed a passionate display of racism, hatred, provincialism, while totally ridiculing his pretensions of being Muslim in the process.
{``As far the Punjabi part goes you seem to be a much more biased man against Punjab than the author is against any region. How do you propose to control an even further divided Pakistan while already the provinces are being kept together through the barrel of the military’s gun? I feel that the author has spoken a much needed truth and rather than complaining about the minor mistakes in the govt. has identified the responsible source, the President. ``}
Shabash, Mr. Shahbaz,
There you go again. While defending the author`s attempt to guarantee Punjabi hegemony over the rest of Pakistan, you are accusing me of being biased. Sir, from its inception, Pakistan has been plagued by Punjabi designs to ensure their ascendancy. Let`s look at some of the ridiculous yet effective means by which Punjabis have skirted around democracy. In United India, where Hindus had the majority, one man one vote was not good enough - parity was needed. In the former united Pakistan, where Bengalis were a slight majority, one man one vote was not good enough - parity was established, even using the stupid idea of ``One Unit.`` After losing East Pakistan by ignoring the results of an election, the Punjabis now want to install ``democracy,`` based on one man one vote. Please use some common sense. The first time you make fools out of us, shame on you. The second and third times you do that, shame on us. The people of Karachi are not going to sit idly by while you Punjabis once again use ``democracy`` to install corrupt regimes and use the Paki Army to slaughter our people and loot our city.
As for general and democracy, let me give you a history lesson. George Washington, a general, helped to create and foster what is called American democracy. Kemal Ataturk, another military genius, forcefully brought democracy to Turkey. Gen. Aslam Baig, a Paki Mohajir general, restored democracy to the nation. Unfortunately, the Benazir and Nawaz ``democratic`` governments alternated in their grotesque looting of Pakistan. Mushy might not be the brightest or the best, but can we really afford another round with these corrupt ``sons and daughters of the soil?`` Perhaps, your issue and the author`s lament are driven by the fact that Mushy is a Mohajir?
#27 Posted by arjun_m on June 22, 2006 9:16:00 am
#25 by FARAZ-AHMED on June 22, 2006 5:18am PT
media is independant and free
Sure...it`s free...depends on how you define free, of course..
media is independant and free
Sure...it`s free...depends on how you define free, of course..
#28 Posted by HasanMahmood on June 22, 2006 11:19:01 am
``Is he the only one in this land of fourteen million people who has an IQ high enough to understand the intricacies of the problems we face?``
Actually with the number of people still wanting Benazir and Nawaz, maybe he is the only one with a high IQ because those people certainly are not very smart....
``Why this supreme arrogance of assuming that the masses have no brains and cannot tell right from wrong and thus like errant children need to be told what is best for them? If given democracy in its truest form, even if the masses are not fully enlightened and in all likelihood get swayed by passionate rhetoric, still, how long will they keep voting the wrong people into power?``
Seeing our history people of Pakistan will never learn - mainly because in cities they are emotionally involved with these parties and in villages the fuedal lords will never let them vote for a change.
Do you know why he can do what he is doing - because the previous corrupt politicians never did anything for this country so people would still rather have him than the Oxford dropout or mian sahib and their cronies. Do you really think it will be any different if any of them come into power. It will be worse....
AND SHAHBAZ AND SALIM PLEASE DONT BE LIKE THOSE PAKISTANIS WHO ARE IN EVERY GET TOGETHER AND PARTIES. IF YOU WANNA WRITE AN ARTICLE WHILE INTERACTING THEN POST YOU ARTICLE SOMEWHERE ELSE. DONT START SHOWING YOUR GREAT WRITING SKILLS IN THE INTERACTION. NOONE WANTS TO READ ANOTHER LONG POST OF ASININE STUFF.
Actually with the number of people still wanting Benazir and Nawaz, maybe he is the only one with a high IQ because those people certainly are not very smart....
``Why this supreme arrogance of assuming that the masses have no brains and cannot tell right from wrong and thus like errant children need to be told what is best for them? If given democracy in its truest form, even if the masses are not fully enlightened and in all likelihood get swayed by passionate rhetoric, still, how long will they keep voting the wrong people into power?``
Seeing our history people of Pakistan will never learn - mainly because in cities they are emotionally involved with these parties and in villages the fuedal lords will never let them vote for a change.
Do you know why he can do what he is doing - because the previous corrupt politicians never did anything for this country so people would still rather have him than the Oxford dropout or mian sahib and their cronies. Do you really think it will be any different if any of them come into power. It will be worse....
AND SHAHBAZ AND SALIM PLEASE DONT BE LIKE THOSE PAKISTANIS WHO ARE IN EVERY GET TOGETHER AND PARTIES. IF YOU WANNA WRITE AN ARTICLE WHILE INTERACTING THEN POST YOU ARTICLE SOMEWHERE ELSE. DONT START SHOWING YOUR GREAT WRITING SKILLS IN THE INTERACTION. NOONE WANTS TO READ ANOTHER LONG POST OF ASININE STUFF.
#29 Posted by HasanMahmood on June 22, 2006 11:24:36 am
Re # 14
``I feel that the author has spoken a much needed truth and rather than complaining about the minor mistakes in the govt. has identified the responsible source, the President
is through an established democracy and civilian rule.``
Ms. Choudary,
now you know why democracy will never work in Pakistan. Because we still have people like mr Shahbaz here who will probably go out and vote for either the Oxford dropout (because here faher for some reason is considered a shaheed in Pakistan - what a pity) or mian sahib (because he is from Lahore yaar)
``I feel that the author has spoken a much needed truth and rather than complaining about the minor mistakes in the govt. has identified the responsible source, the President
is through an established democracy and civilian rule.``
Ms. Choudary,
now you know why democracy will never work in Pakistan. Because we still have people like mr Shahbaz here who will probably go out and vote for either the Oxford dropout (because here faher for some reason is considered a shaheed in Pakistan - what a pity) or mian sahib (because he is from Lahore yaar)
#30 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on June 22, 2006 11:28:17 am
hasanmahmood #28 and #29 {``Because we still have people like mr Shahbaz here who will probably go out and vote for either the Oxford dropout (because here faher for some reason is considered a shaheed in Pakistan - what a pity) or mian sahib (because he is from Lahore yaar)``}
Hasan Sahib,
I apologize for irritating you with my lengthy response to Mr. Shahbaz. Having said that, let me compliment you on your accuracy regarding the perception of ``democracy`` in Pakistan. Thanks.
Hasan Sahib,
I apologize for irritating you with my lengthy response to Mr. Shahbaz. Having said that, let me compliment you on your accuracy regarding the perception of ``democracy`` in Pakistan. Thanks.
#31 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on June 22, 2006 11:33:47 am
Where were all these aspirants of ``democratic`` rule when President General Zia was in power for 11 years? Where were the anger, the lament, and concern for the constitution of Pakistan? Does the fact that Zia was a Punjabi general and Mushy is a Mohajir general interrupt the craving lust for ``democracy`` among our Paki Punjabi hypocrites?
#32 Posted by HisExcellency on June 22, 2006 1:17:45 pm
re: #31
It was the Punjab Assembly that passed the resolution to allow Musharraf to hold two offices. Mushy`s power base is the Punjab. So either he isn`t Mohajir... or Punjabis aren`t as prejudiced toward Mohajirs as you think.
It was the Punjab Assembly that passed the resolution to allow Musharraf to hold two offices. Mushy`s power base is the Punjab. So either he isn`t Mohajir... or Punjabis aren`t as prejudiced toward Mohajirs as you think.
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