Lament of a Disillusioned Citizen
Fareeha Choudhry June 21, 2006
#1 Posted by paindupastry on June 21, 2006 1:25:33 am
I liked what i read and i have many of the same opinions except
``The greatest tragedy of Pakistan and its people is perhaps simply`` that the ones who are capable and learned enough to ``rise up and scream your lungs out in protest. Scream and scream, individually, collectively, until someone bloody hears you” are too busy screaming from 10,000 miles away.
For the screaming to be heard u ought to be a little bit closer to the action, otherwise you may as well, surf www.pass-the-time.com and enjoy your coffee.
In summary, good article but we already have plenty of cribbers, we need doers….which one are you?
``The greatest tragedy of Pakistan and its people is perhaps simply`` that the ones who are capable and learned enough to ``rise up and scream your lungs out in protest. Scream and scream, individually, collectively, until someone bloody hears you” are too busy screaming from 10,000 miles away.
For the screaming to be heard u ought to be a little bit closer to the action, otherwise you may as well, surf www.pass-the-time.com and enjoy your coffee.
In summary, good article but we already have plenty of cribbers, we need doers….which one are you?
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#2 Posted by zeemax on June 21, 2006 1:34:02 am
Wasi Zafar is technically right. Article 41 (7) (B) was amended through LFO to include the text `` Notwithstanding anything contained in this Article or Article 43 or any other provision of the Constitution..`` This effectively means that if an assembly, any assembly, elects the president for another term, nothing else contained anywhere in the constitution can prevent it. Thus, PM can be president in uniform or a spacesuit or whatever .... Use of the term `Notwithstanding` in legal lingo can work wonders.
I can`t see why Pakistanis bother to refer to the constitution at all. It has been mutilated so much that not only the letter but also the spirit is now undecipherable.
Nevertheless, Musharraf`s days now appear to be numbered. Even if he gets elected president for a further term, it is unlikely he`ll be able to influence the outcome of the next general elections given the consensus of all major parties including MMA on the main provisions of the charter of democracy. In that event, impeachment will not be far off and trial through a Kargill Commission, also proposed in the charter of democracy.
Thus, Musharraf is likely to have a meeting with destiny in not too distant a future.
I can`t see why Pakistanis bother to refer to the constitution at all. It has been mutilated so much that not only the letter but also the spirit is now undecipherable.
Nevertheless, Musharraf`s days now appear to be numbered. Even if he gets elected president for a further term, it is unlikely he`ll be able to influence the outcome of the next general elections given the consensus of all major parties including MMA on the main provisions of the charter of democracy. In that event, impeachment will not be far off and trial through a Kargill Commission, also proposed in the charter of democracy.
Thus, Musharraf is likely to have a meeting with destiny in not too distant a future.
#3 Posted by rf786 on June 21, 2006 2:08:42 am
Re: # 2
{Nevertheless, Musharraf`s days now appear to be numbered. Even if he gets elected president for a further term, it is unlikely he`ll be able to influence the outcome of the next general elections given the consensus of all major parties including MMA on the main provisions of the charter of democracy. In that event, impeachment will not be far off and trial through a Kargill Commission, also proposed in the charter of democracy.
Thus, Musharraf is likely to have a meeting with destiny in not too distant a future}
can u please provide us with a defination of `not too distant a future` so we can keep a tab on your prediction. By the way, which political parties r u talking about? same one`s who helped the military and will most willingly jump in bed if given the green light? Mulla, feudal, nationalist, so-called liberals, technocrats all of these politicians have the army flag up their backside, so who is going to bell the cat? Not going to happen very soon, unless something dramatic happens and Pak establishment has no choice but to surrender.
{Nevertheless, Musharraf`s days now appear to be numbered. Even if he gets elected president for a further term, it is unlikely he`ll be able to influence the outcome of the next general elections given the consensus of all major parties including MMA on the main provisions of the charter of democracy. In that event, impeachment will not be far off and trial through a Kargill Commission, also proposed in the charter of democracy.
Thus, Musharraf is likely to have a meeting with destiny in not too distant a future}
can u please provide us with a defination of `not too distant a future` so we can keep a tab on your prediction. By the way, which political parties r u talking about? same one`s who helped the military and will most willingly jump in bed if given the green light? Mulla, feudal, nationalist, so-called liberals, technocrats all of these politicians have the army flag up their backside, so who is going to bell the cat? Not going to happen very soon, unless something dramatic happens and Pak establishment has no choice but to surrender.
#4 Posted by harish_hyd on June 21, 2006 2:46:50 am
Well written! When democracy was in place, you guys were fed up with BB/NS and their corrupt ways, never mind the fact that the scams that Indian politicians are involved in would make Paki politicians look like kindergarten kids. You asked for a savior and the savior arrived in a PIA flight from Colombo. TV channels beamed visuals showing people jumping in joy at Musharraf`s takeover. Now you`re tired of this savior and want a new one. Thus Pakistan continues to oscillate between dictatorship and democracy.
#5 Posted by sanjay on June 21, 2006 4:21:06 am
A well-written article which needs sincere appreciation for the disgust shown by a nationalist, a true patriot for his/her country.
But the thing is, as somebody has pointed out, words are no match for the action. What is required is the action--something what Nepalese have done.
But what appears is(we dont know the real truth here in India), is that a normal Pakistani is not very much dependent of Pakistani State for his survival--either he survives from the money from the Gulf or through agriculture or through zamindars etc. that he is not much bothered how the country is ruled.
It is only the very minuscule populace which thinks about democracy and such things. Their numbers is not enough to cause much ripples in the political waters of Pakistan.
So all in all Sir/Madam, it is still some time before voices of people like are heard in Pakistan. But the real danger facing people like you is that Musharaff is not going to leave his post or giveup his Uniform. Thats for sure. Nobody should have any doubt. Elections 2007 will be as good as Elections-2002. In such a scenario, Pakistan runs the danger of getting into the pariah status. What I feel that Musharaff has understood it so on his own he is insulating himself from the outside world. Most of the time he is talking about China, he is conspicious by his absence from western media etc.
But the thing is, as somebody has pointed out, words are no match for the action. What is required is the action--something what Nepalese have done.
But what appears is(we dont know the real truth here in India), is that a normal Pakistani is not very much dependent of Pakistani State for his survival--either he survives from the money from the Gulf or through agriculture or through zamindars etc. that he is not much bothered how the country is ruled.
It is only the very minuscule populace which thinks about democracy and such things. Their numbers is not enough to cause much ripples in the political waters of Pakistan.
So all in all Sir/Madam, it is still some time before voices of people like are heard in Pakistan. But the real danger facing people like you is that Musharaff is not going to leave his post or giveup his Uniform. Thats for sure. Nobody should have any doubt. Elections 2007 will be as good as Elections-2002. In such a scenario, Pakistan runs the danger of getting into the pariah status. What I feel that Musharaff has understood it so on his own he is insulating himself from the outside world. Most of the time he is talking about China, he is conspicious by his absence from western media etc.
#6 Posted by nasah on June 21, 2006 5:20:08 am
``Can Pakistan become Nepal? That is the crucial question.(Ayaz Amir in Dawn)
of course -- Pakistan can become Nepal -- except for one difference -- Nepal will have a constitutional monarchy -- Pakistan will have an unconstitutional monarchy....
of course -- Pakistan can become Nepal -- except for one difference -- Nepal will have a constitutional monarchy -- Pakistan will have an unconstitutional monarchy....
#7 Posted by ShoreSahib on June 21, 2006 5:25:24 am
Fareeha Sahiba, Bravo! I bow before you....
I love your muzmoon. Khudi Beydaar aap ki. I am sure Allama and Jinnah smile down upon you from whereever they are...giving them a much needed respite from all the tears they shed.....
The last time I saw Mr. Wasi Zafar was when I was 9 years old in 1985. I remember kindness from him and his wife. My, how things have changed in Pakistan and how things remain the same. Sigh
I love your muzmoon. Khudi Beydaar aap ki. I am sure Allama and Jinnah smile down upon you from whereever they are...giving them a much needed respite from all the tears they shed.....
The last time I saw Mr. Wasi Zafar was when I was 9 years old in 1985. I remember kindness from him and his wife. My, how things have changed in Pakistan and how things remain the same. Sigh
#8 Posted by pseudointellect on June 21, 2006 8:27:17 am
All this rattle tattle and hoo ha about democracy, freedom, human rights and ``end is near`` slogans by forces of Left are a bubble waiting to be burst.Even a 5 year child knows the real players and hands behind the face of the Pakistani politics.The great expectations of freedom and rule of constitution, despite knowing the fact that democracy in pakistan has always been delivered through the barrels of the guns, and waiting for civilian leadership to empower the people will prove a swansong.Only literate and educated voter can elect an able politician and Parliament.The problems you`ve mentioned are also the hallmark of the civilian governments and are probably in their worst form in these governments.
Change will not be from above, it`ll be from below and an educated and politicaly aware civil society is the key to it.Currently your political system doesn`t allow any genuine and sincere leadership to emerge out of the crowd.People enter politics to safeguard their own interests and to gain power.Principle centered politics days are over in Pakistan.It`s more of a game of mutual advantages and what`s in it for me now.Poor voter and constitution is standing somewhere in the corner waiting to be noticed.
Change will not be from above, it`ll be from below and an educated and politicaly aware civil society is the key to it.Currently your political system doesn`t allow any genuine and sincere leadership to emerge out of the crowd.People enter politics to safeguard their own interests and to gain power.Principle centered politics days are over in Pakistan.It`s more of a game of mutual advantages and what`s in it for me now.Poor voter and constitution is standing somewhere in the corner waiting to be noticed.
#9 Posted by HisExcellency on June 21, 2006 8:29:50 am
re: Fareeha
You wrote:
We all crave democracy
This is the (weak) premise of your article. The reality is that only some of us crave democracy. Others admire it when it works and brush it aside when it doesn`t. I count myself in this group.
You wrote:
We all crave democracy
This is the (weak) premise of your article. The reality is that only some of us crave democracy. Others admire it when it works and brush it aside when it doesn`t. I count myself in this group.
#11 Posted by rozaiba on June 21, 2006 9:53:27 am
The 1973 Constitution is supreme - the constitution is Pakistan.
There`s little point in arguing with the military and its henchmen who rejects this point. Everyone - every single party agrees to the 1973 constitution. But the nation is held at gunpoint.
If we accept that Pakistan broke up due to the lack of a consensus constitution, then it`s shameful to think it is not important today.
There`s little point in arguing with the military and its henchmen who rejects this point. Everyone - every single party agrees to the 1973 constitution. But the nation is held at gunpoint.
If we accept that Pakistan broke up due to the lack of a consensus constitution, then it`s shameful to think it is not important today.
#12 Posted by faisaluno on June 21, 2006 11:40:18 am
aunty, please take a ride in one of the lahore public busses. the day you can travel without geting assaulted will be the day pak will be ready for democracy. until then, dunda rule zinda baad or as someone wrote on another website:
Jo Mushi ka ghaddar hai
woh maut ka HUQDAAR hai!
#13 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on June 21, 2006 2:13:46 pm
Fareeha Choudhry, {``whatever it is, each new government makes us yearn for those gone, to jail cells or foreign lands, locked either in the land or out of it and we slowly realize that the compromised angels weren’t those who were coming our way but rather those who were being dragged away in trumped up cases, their foreigner-saved-my-neck deals and disowned palaces and billions of stolen dollars hidden in foreign accounts waving cheerio right behind them.``}
Farheeha Sahiba,
Please speak for yourself. I think that there is ample evidence that both Benazir and Nawaz stole, embezzled, and stashed away their ill-gotten money - all at the expense of the poor and short-changed people of Pakistan. Shame on you for even wishing their return to power. You must be from Punjab - it`s so obvious.
{``what makes me the angriest is the how easily and guiltlessly our Constitution is raped, plundered, twisted, destroyed and then suitably recreated to cater to the whims of those in power. ``}
Again, Fareeha Sahiba,
It is far better for the Constitution of Pakistan to be raped, plundered, twisted, and destroyed, than the people of Karachi to be raped, plundered, tortured, and massacred at the hands of Paki Punju Rangers deployed by the ``democratically elected`` authoritarian regimes. Once again, shame on you for even advocating a return to the bad years of the late 80s and 90s.
Before we can even talk about elections, democracy, and civilian rule, there must be fundamental changes in Pakistan:
1. All the provinces need to be subdivided into several smaller autonomous provinces to preclude power being grabbed by the largest province as a manifestation of mob rule.
2. The rights of minorities and smaller provinces must be safeguarded against an imposition of the will of the majority at the expense of human rights.
3. Pakistan should be declared a secular state with guaranteed freedoms of conscience, religion, speech, and press.
4. All elections should be conducsted under the watchful eyes of dependable, honest, and numerous foreign observers.
5. There should be an immediate reversal of the anti-Ahmedi laws with a full and open apology and appropriate restitution to this persecuted group of patriotic Pakis.
6. Last, and most importantly, there should be immediate repatriation of stranded Pakis in BD (the so-called ``Biharis,``), also accompanied by a full and open apology with appropriate restitution to this neglected, long-suffering, and cheated group of loyal Pakis.
Without a solid foundation of sincerity, honesty, justice, fairness, humanity, and rights of citizens, a ``democracy`` for the sake of counting votes, is merely a facade.
Farheeha Sahiba,
Please speak for yourself. I think that there is ample evidence that both Benazir and Nawaz stole, embezzled, and stashed away their ill-gotten money - all at the expense of the poor and short-changed people of Pakistan. Shame on you for even wishing their return to power. You must be from Punjab - it`s so obvious.
{``what makes me the angriest is the how easily and guiltlessly our Constitution is raped, plundered, twisted, destroyed and then suitably recreated to cater to the whims of those in power. ``}
Again, Fareeha Sahiba,
It is far better for the Constitution of Pakistan to be raped, plundered, twisted, and destroyed, than the people of Karachi to be raped, plundered, tortured, and massacred at the hands of Paki Punju Rangers deployed by the ``democratically elected`` authoritarian regimes. Once again, shame on you for even advocating a return to the bad years of the late 80s and 90s.
Before we can even talk about elections, democracy, and civilian rule, there must be fundamental changes in Pakistan:
1. All the provinces need to be subdivided into several smaller autonomous provinces to preclude power being grabbed by the largest province as a manifestation of mob rule.
2. The rights of minorities and smaller provinces must be safeguarded against an imposition of the will of the majority at the expense of human rights.
3. Pakistan should be declared a secular state with guaranteed freedoms of conscience, religion, speech, and press.
4. All elections should be conducsted under the watchful eyes of dependable, honest, and numerous foreign observers.
5. There should be an immediate reversal of the anti-Ahmedi laws with a full and open apology and appropriate restitution to this persecuted group of patriotic Pakis.
6. Last, and most importantly, there should be immediate repatriation of stranded Pakis in BD (the so-called ``Biharis,``), also accompanied by a full and open apology with appropriate restitution to this neglected, long-suffering, and cheated group of loyal Pakis.
Without a solid foundation of sincerity, honesty, justice, fairness, humanity, and rights of citizens, a ``democracy`` for the sake of counting votes, is merely a facade.
#14 Posted by hshahbaz on June 21, 2006 6:25:05 pm
Mr. Saleem Chauhan you have certainly enlightened us with many problems that face us before elections, democracy and civilian rule but may I ask you who exactly will fulfill these demands. Mr. President, maybe, who has nothing more important to do than to hang on to power ( or his uniform). Or maybe you are waiting for another martial law and another general who will promise us much and give us nothing after another 11 year stint. Ah! Yes, now I understand, maybe you are waiting for the messiah.
Sir, please first read the article which clearly states that democracy evolves through mistakes and you cannot abolish democracy for the reason that one or two leaders were a failure. Sir, USA did not put aside democracy after the Watergate scandal. Although I might disagree with some of your points I do agree with them on the whole and the only way they will ever be implemented is through an established democracy and civilian rule.
As far the Punjabi part goes you seem to be a much more biased man against Punjab than the author is against any region. How do you propose to control an even further divided Pakistan while already the provinces are being kept together through the barrel of the military’s gun? I feel that the author has spoken a much needed truth and rather than complaining about the minor mistakes in the govt. has identified the responsible source, the President
Sir, please first read the article which clearly states that democracy evolves through mistakes and you cannot abolish democracy for the reason that one or two leaders were a failure. Sir, USA did not put aside democracy after the Watergate scandal. Although I might disagree with some of your points I do agree with them on the whole and the only way they will ever be implemented is through an established democracy and civilian rule.
As far the Punjabi part goes you seem to be a much more biased man against Punjab than the author is against any region. How do you propose to control an even further divided Pakistan while already the provinces are being kept together through the barrel of the military’s gun? I feel that the author has spoken a much needed truth and rather than complaining about the minor mistakes in the govt. has identified the responsible source, the President
#15 Posted by hshahbaz on June 21, 2006 6:36:23 pm
To sanjay : I totally agree with you that actions are needed. But sir, actions do not come out of the blue, they are always inspired by words. And if the Pakistani people had not cared about their govt. they would not have stood up for their rights along with Bhutto, nor had they chanted slogans against Ayub and no matter what the reason for Ayub`s downfall there is no denying that people did come out against him. It is just that the population is frustrated after getting no rewards for their work, but pessimism can be ended. This country is ours and it is our duty to run it. It is high time that we realize our duties! Nobody could have said a month ago that nepal was ready for such a large-scale opposition. You never know what`s going to happen and it is just some pessimistic seers who never will agree even if the opposition faces them in the face. Afterall it was the pakistan public who broke the gates of the diplomatic enclave a few months back.
#16 Posted by sanjay on June 21, 2006 10:12:08 pm
#15
I do not want to dispel your optimism, but it doesnt appear that something is going to happen in Pakistan, atleast for the next 5 years. There have been words and words and words all over for the past so many years regarding restoration of democracy in Pakistan but now it is clear that those words have gone into deaf ears.
So my advice to Pakistanis is that either you have to get into action ,that is, take it on to the streets(like the Nepalese have done) or accept the status-quo as your fate.
There is no other third option.
I do not want to dispel your optimism, but it doesnt appear that something is going to happen in Pakistan, atleast for the next 5 years. There have been words and words and words all over for the past so many years regarding restoration of democracy in Pakistan but now it is clear that those words have gone into deaf ears.
So my advice to Pakistanis is that either you have to get into action ,that is, take it on to the streets(like the Nepalese have done) or accept the status-quo as your fate.
There is no other third option.
#17 Posted by ballukhan on June 21, 2006 11:17:06 pm
Re: # 6
I think the biggest event in this sub-continent in this decade was the turning of a State from being a religious state to a Secular one....
It is easier to find new nations with some majority religious population moving towards adaption of a religious identity especially Islamic.......but the opposite is really a rare occasion.........
Why it has escaped the attention of the Pakistani intellectuals is something I fail to understand.....atleast Ayaz Amir has broached this issue by hinting at what he implies about the ``Islamic`` Republic of Pakistan!! Pakistan can certainly emulate Nepal and turn from an Islamic State to a Secular State like Nepal !
I think the biggest event in this sub-continent in this decade was the turning of a State from being a religious state to a Secular one....
It is easier to find new nations with some majority religious population moving towards adaption of a religious identity especially Islamic.......but the opposite is really a rare occasion.........
Why it has escaped the attention of the Pakistani intellectuals is something I fail to understand.....atleast Ayaz Amir has broached this issue by hinting at what he implies about the ``Islamic`` Republic of Pakistan!! Pakistan can certainly emulate Nepal and turn from an Islamic State to a Secular State like Nepal !
#19 Posted by ahmedmadani on June 22, 2006 12:21:42 am
General has given lot to country even with some problems. Musharraf is Jinnah today. Hope he rules for next 12 years. Two decades under him can transform Country and he is only able to care of terrorists. I think too dwarfs are criticizing him due thier own inferiority complex jelosy and greed. Whether one likes or not today Pakistan is Gen P.Musharraf. I doubt light wt civies like BB or Nawaz amount to anything. But MQM Chief counts all others have to no value.
#20 Posted by majumdar on June 22, 2006 1:30:58 am
Dear Ahmed sahib
(Whether one likes or not today Pakistan is Gen P.Musharraf. )
Such sentiments are not unique to Pakistan. Once it was said India is Indira, Indira is India. But 21 years after he death, India is possibly a much stronger country. Give your country and countrymen a chance.
Regards
(Whether one likes or not today Pakistan is Gen P.Musharraf. )
Such sentiments are not unique to Pakistan. Once it was said India is Indira, Indira is India. But 21 years after he death, India is possibly a much stronger country. Give your country and countrymen a chance.
Regards
#21 Posted by harish_hyd on June 22, 2006 1:56:13 am
#19 by ahmedmadani
Musharraf is Jinnah today.
How very true! Pakistan was never as divided as it is today, thanks to the budding Jinnah.
Musharraf is Jinnah today.
How very true! Pakistan was never as divided as it is today, thanks to the budding Jinnah.
#22 Posted by rf786 on June 22, 2006 2:38:43 am
Re: # 21
Harish Jee,
App tho punjay jhar ke pakistan aur Jinnah ke bhund ke pechay pargay hein, kiun qibla koi khaas project hai kia?
{Pakistan was never as divided as it is today, thanks to the budding Jinnah}
Yaar, take a break, a kit-kat break, even better watch Fifa world cup its really very interesting, so much massalla dude with all those crummy third world countries trying to beat the much better developed countries, can u believe it, their audacity to challenge the high and mighty. Thoba thoba thoba....phitkaar inpay....the gist of all this BS is get a life dude...
Harish Jee,
App tho punjay jhar ke pakistan aur Jinnah ke bhund ke pechay pargay hein, kiun qibla koi khaas project hai kia?
{Pakistan was never as divided as it is today, thanks to the budding Jinnah}
Yaar, take a break, a kit-kat break, even better watch Fifa world cup its really very interesting, so much massalla dude with all those crummy third world countries trying to beat the much better developed countries, can u believe it, their audacity to challenge the high and mighty. Thoba thoba thoba....phitkaar inpay....the gist of all this BS is get a life dude...
#23 Posted by harish_hyd on June 22, 2006 2:42:21 am
#22 by rf786
App tho punjay jhar ke pakistan aur Jinnah ke bhund ke pechay pargay hein, kiun qibla koi khaas project hai kia?
Hmm..pet hate samjho :-)
Thoba thoba thoba....phitkaar inpay....the gist of all this BS is get a life dude...
Bhai RF, you need to come up with better arguments than that. And yes, that really sounded like BS.
App tho punjay jhar ke pakistan aur Jinnah ke bhund ke pechay pargay hein, kiun qibla koi khaas project hai kia?
Hmm..pet hate samjho :-)
Thoba thoba thoba....phitkaar inpay....the gist of all this BS is get a life dude...
Bhai RF, you need to come up with better arguments than that. And yes, that really sounded like BS.
#24 Posted by rf786 on June 22, 2006 2:48:43 am
Re: # 23
Challo yaar, aap khush tho hum bhee khush....
Challo yaar, aap khush tho hum bhee khush....
#25 Posted by Faraz-Ahmed on June 22, 2006 5:18:39 am
Not sure why do we have so many despondents here.Mush is trying to make the best out of the situation.He has had to make compromises with lotas of the Q league and Patriots but that was defintely the only option to keep the bigger evils NS and BB out of the game.
Atleast we do not have any major top level corruption stories coming out which was an everyday routine in the glorious democratic era of the 90`s.
I agree a lot needs to be done in the social sectors but keeping in view the resource crunch mush is doing the best.Economic indicators are healthy,police reforms are taking place,media is independant and free,investment is flowing in.Why can we not be more patient?
Give this guy some more time.He has to clear the mess created by 50 yrs of large scale
mismanagement.Lets not be too idealistic,be prectical and do consider the extrenal challenges we are all facing.
Atleast we do not have any major top level corruption stories coming out which was an everyday routine in the glorious democratic era of the 90`s.
I agree a lot needs to be done in the social sectors but keeping in view the resource crunch mush is doing the best.Economic indicators are healthy,police reforms are taking place,media is independant and free,investment is flowing in.Why can we not be more patient?
Give this guy some more time.He has to clear the mess created by 50 yrs of large scale
mismanagement.Lets not be too idealistic,be prectical and do consider the extrenal challenges we are all facing.
#26 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on June 22, 2006 8:24:28 am
hshahbaz #14, {``Mr. Saleem Chauhan you have certainly enlightened us with many problems that face us before elections, democracy and civilian rule but may I ask you who exactly will fulfill these demands. Mr. President, maybe, who has nothing more important to do than to hang on to power ( or his uniform). ``}
Shahbaz Sahib,
May I ask you who is going to facilitate the implementation of ``democracy`` under the old, failed, and unfair rules? The same person - yes, Mr. President, the general. If I am told correctly, it was another Mohajir general, Mirza Aslam Baig, who conducted the last transition to ``democracy.`` This was one of the two or three times in Pakistan`s history when a government in power allowed a new government to take over without the benefit of a war, a defeat, riots, or a coup.
{``Sir, please first read the article which clearly states that democracy evolves through mistakes and you cannot abolish democracy for the reason that one or two leaders were a failure. Sir, USA did not put aside democracy after the Watergate scandal. ``}
Again Mr. Shabaz,
I read the article and found it to be a rather lengthy rehash of the same old arguments for the restoration of ``democracy`` or ``legalized looting.`` A few mistakes here and there may be acceptable, but now come on - even baseball, that most boring of human interactions, has a ``three strikes and you are out`` rule. Democracy is not a recent invention that needs to be refined through a trial and error ordeal. United India, from which Pakistan was painfully extracted, started as a democracy and has matured into a viable nation without resorting to gimmicks that are intended to ensure the hegemony of one selfish province. If democracy is paramount, may I suggest that Pakistan reunify with really democratic India and stop this tinkering with pseudo-democratic facades. Why must Pakis insist in ``discovering`` a vaccine against polio when there are other diseases such as AIDS that really need a cure?
{``Although I might disagree with some of your points I do agree with them on the whole and the only way they will ever be implemented is through an established democracy and civilian rule. ``}
Sir, let me guess. The point that you disagree with me is the repatriation of ``stranded`` Pakis in Bangladesh. Obviously, you too must be from Punjab. No need to defend yourself, Mr. Tahmed3 has already performed a passionate display of racism, hatred, provincialism, while totally ridiculing his pretensions of being Muslim in the process.
{``As far the Punjabi part goes you seem to be a much more biased man against Punjab than the author is against any region. How do you propose to control an even further divided Pakistan while already the provinces are being kept together through the barrel of the military’s gun? I feel that the author has spoken a much needed truth and rather than complaining about the minor mistakes in the govt. has identified the responsible source, the President. ``}
Shabash, Mr. Shahbaz,
There you go again. While defending the author`s attempt to guarantee Punjabi hegemony over the rest of Pakistan, you are accusing me of being biased. Sir, from its inception, Pakistan has been plagued by Punjabi designs to ensure their ascendancy. Let`s look at some of the ridiculous yet effective means by which Punjabis have skirted around democracy. In United India, where Hindus had the majority, one man one vote was not good enough - parity was needed. In the former united Pakistan, where Bengalis were a slight majority, one man one vote was not good enough - parity was established, even using the stupid idea of ``One Unit.`` After losing East Pakistan by ignoring the results of an election, the Punjabis now want to install ``democracy,`` based on one man one vote. Please use some common sense. The first time you make fools out of us, shame on you. The second and third times you do that, shame on us. The people of Karachi are not going to sit idly by while you Punjabis once again use ``democracy`` to install corrupt regimes and use the Paki Army to slaughter our people and loot our city.
As for general and democracy, let me give you a history lesson. George Washington, a general, helped to create and foster what is called American democracy. Kemal Ataturk, another military genius, forcefully brought democracy to Turkey. Gen. Aslam Baig, a Paki Mohajir general, restored democracy to the nation. Unfortunately, the Benazir and Nawaz ``democratic`` governments alternated in their grotesque looting of Pakistan. Mushy might not be the brightest or the best, but can we really afford another round with these corrupt ``sons and daughters of the soil?`` Perhaps, your issue and the author`s lament are driven by the fact that Mushy is a Mohajir?
Shahbaz Sahib,
May I ask you who is going to facilitate the implementation of ``democracy`` under the old, failed, and unfair rules? The same person - yes, Mr. President, the general. If I am told correctly, it was another Mohajir general, Mirza Aslam Baig, who conducted the last transition to ``democracy.`` This was one of the two or three times in Pakistan`s history when a government in power allowed a new government to take over without the benefit of a war, a defeat, riots, or a coup.
{``Sir, please first read the article which clearly states that democracy evolves through mistakes and you cannot abolish democracy for the reason that one or two leaders were a failure. Sir, USA did not put aside democracy after the Watergate scandal. ``}
Again Mr. Shabaz,
I read the article and found it to be a rather lengthy rehash of the same old arguments for the restoration of ``democracy`` or ``legalized looting.`` A few mistakes here and there may be acceptable, but now come on - even baseball, that most boring of human interactions, has a ``three strikes and you are out`` rule. Democracy is not a recent invention that needs to be refined through a trial and error ordeal. United India, from which Pakistan was painfully extracted, started as a democracy and has matured into a viable nation without resorting to gimmicks that are intended to ensure the hegemony of one selfish province. If democracy is paramount, may I suggest that Pakistan reunify with really democratic India and stop this tinkering with pseudo-democratic facades. Why must Pakis insist in ``discovering`` a vaccine against polio when there are other diseases such as AIDS that really need a cure?
{``Although I might disagree with some of your points I do agree with them on the whole and the only way they will ever be implemented is through an established democracy and civilian rule. ``}
Sir, let me guess. The point that you disagree with me is the repatriation of ``stranded`` Pakis in Bangladesh. Obviously, you too must be from Punjab. No need to defend yourself, Mr. Tahmed3 has already performed a passionate display of racism, hatred, provincialism, while totally ridiculing his pretensions of being Muslim in the process.
{``As far the Punjabi part goes you seem to be a much more biased man against Punjab than the author is against any region. How do you propose to control an even further divided Pakistan while already the provinces are being kept together through the barrel of the military’s gun? I feel that the author has spoken a much needed truth and rather than complaining about the minor mistakes in the govt. has identified the responsible source, the President. ``}
Shabash, Mr. Shahbaz,
There you go again. While defending the author`s attempt to guarantee Punjabi hegemony over the rest of Pakistan, you are accusing me of being biased. Sir, from its inception, Pakistan has been plagued by Punjabi designs to ensure their ascendancy. Let`s look at some of the ridiculous yet effective means by which Punjabis have skirted around democracy. In United India, where Hindus had the majority, one man one vote was not good enough - parity was needed. In the former united Pakistan, where Bengalis were a slight majority, one man one vote was not good enough - parity was established, even using the stupid idea of ``One Unit.`` After losing East Pakistan by ignoring the results of an election, the Punjabis now want to install ``democracy,`` based on one man one vote. Please use some common sense. The first time you make fools out of us, shame on you. The second and third times you do that, shame on us. The people of Karachi are not going to sit idly by while you Punjabis once again use ``democracy`` to install corrupt regimes and use the Paki Army to slaughter our people and loot our city.
As for general and democracy, let me give you a history lesson. George Washington, a general, helped to create and foster what is called American democracy. Kemal Ataturk, another military genius, forcefully brought democracy to Turkey. Gen. Aslam Baig, a Paki Mohajir general, restored democracy to the nation. Unfortunately, the Benazir and Nawaz ``democratic`` governments alternated in their grotesque looting of Pakistan. Mushy might not be the brightest or the best, but can we really afford another round with these corrupt ``sons and daughters of the soil?`` Perhaps, your issue and the author`s lament are driven by the fact that Mushy is a Mohajir?
#27 Posted by arjun_m on June 22, 2006 9:16:00 am
#25 by FARAZ-AHMED on June 22, 2006 5:18am PT
media is independant and free
Sure...it`s free...depends on how you define free, of course..
media is independant and free
Sure...it`s free...depends on how you define free, of course..
#28 Posted by HasanMahmood on June 22, 2006 11:19:01 am
``Is he the only one in this land of fourteen million people who has an IQ high enough to understand the intricacies of the problems we face?``
Actually with the number of people still wanting Benazir and Nawaz, maybe he is the only one with a high IQ because those people certainly are not very smart....
``Why this supreme arrogance of assuming that the masses have no brains and cannot tell right from wrong and thus like errant children need to be told what is best for them? If given democracy in its truest form, even if the masses are not fully enlightened and in all likelihood get swayed by passionate rhetoric, still, how long will they keep voting the wrong people into power?``
Seeing our history people of Pakistan will never learn - mainly because in cities they are emotionally involved with these parties and in villages the fuedal lords will never let them vote for a change.
Do you know why he can do what he is doing - because the previous corrupt politicians never did anything for this country so people would still rather have him than the Oxford dropout or mian sahib and their cronies. Do you really think it will be any different if any of them come into power. It will be worse....
AND SHAHBAZ AND SALIM PLEASE DONT BE LIKE THOSE PAKISTANIS WHO ARE IN EVERY GET TOGETHER AND PARTIES. IF YOU WANNA WRITE AN ARTICLE WHILE INTERACTING THEN POST YOU ARTICLE SOMEWHERE ELSE. DONT START SHOWING YOUR GREAT WRITING SKILLS IN THE INTERACTION. NOONE WANTS TO READ ANOTHER LONG POST OF ASININE STUFF.
Actually with the number of people still wanting Benazir and Nawaz, maybe he is the only one with a high IQ because those people certainly are not very smart....
``Why this supreme arrogance of assuming that the masses have no brains and cannot tell right from wrong and thus like errant children need to be told what is best for them? If given democracy in its truest form, even if the masses are not fully enlightened and in all likelihood get swayed by passionate rhetoric, still, how long will they keep voting the wrong people into power?``
Seeing our history people of Pakistan will never learn - mainly because in cities they are emotionally involved with these parties and in villages the fuedal lords will never let them vote for a change.
Do you know why he can do what he is doing - because the previous corrupt politicians never did anything for this country so people would still rather have him than the Oxford dropout or mian sahib and their cronies. Do you really think it will be any different if any of them come into power. It will be worse....
AND SHAHBAZ AND SALIM PLEASE DONT BE LIKE THOSE PAKISTANIS WHO ARE IN EVERY GET TOGETHER AND PARTIES. IF YOU WANNA WRITE AN ARTICLE WHILE INTERACTING THEN POST YOU ARTICLE SOMEWHERE ELSE. DONT START SHOWING YOUR GREAT WRITING SKILLS IN THE INTERACTION. NOONE WANTS TO READ ANOTHER LONG POST OF ASININE STUFF.
#29 Posted by HasanMahmood on June 22, 2006 11:24:36 am
Re # 14
``I feel that the author has spoken a much needed truth and rather than complaining about the minor mistakes in the govt. has identified the responsible source, the President
is through an established democracy and civilian rule.``
Ms. Choudary,
now you know why democracy will never work in Pakistan. Because we still have people like mr Shahbaz here who will probably go out and vote for either the Oxford dropout (because here faher for some reason is considered a shaheed in Pakistan - what a pity) or mian sahib (because he is from Lahore yaar)
``I feel that the author has spoken a much needed truth and rather than complaining about the minor mistakes in the govt. has identified the responsible source, the President
is through an established democracy and civilian rule.``
Ms. Choudary,
now you know why democracy will never work in Pakistan. Because we still have people like mr Shahbaz here who will probably go out and vote for either the Oxford dropout (because here faher for some reason is considered a shaheed in Pakistan - what a pity) or mian sahib (because he is from Lahore yaar)
#30 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on June 22, 2006 11:28:17 am
hasanmahmood #28 and #29 {``Because we still have people like mr Shahbaz here who will probably go out and vote for either the Oxford dropout (because here faher for some reason is considered a shaheed in Pakistan - what a pity) or mian sahib (because he is from Lahore yaar)``}
Hasan Sahib,
I apologize for irritating you with my lengthy response to Mr. Shahbaz. Having said that, let me compliment you on your accuracy regarding the perception of ``democracy`` in Pakistan. Thanks.
Hasan Sahib,
I apologize for irritating you with my lengthy response to Mr. Shahbaz. Having said that, let me compliment you on your accuracy regarding the perception of ``democracy`` in Pakistan. Thanks.
#31 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on June 22, 2006 11:33:47 am
Where were all these aspirants of ``democratic`` rule when President General Zia was in power for 11 years? Where were the anger, the lament, and concern for the constitution of Pakistan? Does the fact that Zia was a Punjabi general and Mushy is a Mohajir general interrupt the craving lust for ``democracy`` among our Paki Punjabi hypocrites?
#32 Posted by HisExcellency on June 22, 2006 1:17:45 pm
re: #31
It was the Punjab Assembly that passed the resolution to allow Musharraf to hold two offices. Mushy`s power base is the Punjab. So either he isn`t Mohajir... or Punjabis aren`t as prejudiced toward Mohajirs as you think.
It was the Punjab Assembly that passed the resolution to allow Musharraf to hold two offices. Mushy`s power base is the Punjab. So either he isn`t Mohajir... or Punjabis aren`t as prejudiced toward Mohajirs as you think.
#33 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on June 22, 2006 1:28:12 pm
#32, Mushy is a Mohajir who does almost all of Punjab`s bidding except slaughtering of his fellow Karachiites.
By the way, the President of India is a momin. Does that make India an Islamic Repulbic? Either he isn`t Muslim ... or Indians aren`t as prejudiced toward Muslims as Pakis think. :)
By the way, the President of India is a momin. Does that make India an Islamic Repulbic? Either he isn`t Muslim ... or Indians aren`t as prejudiced toward Muslims as Pakis think. :)
#34 Posted by HisExcellency on June 22, 2006 1:39:55 pm
Uniform and constitution are issues for the pseudo-intellectuals. The common man is interested in roti, petrol, makaan and kapra. Sure Benazir and Nawaz talked about these things too. But Mushy actually has a working strategy...
Kuwait to setup $1.2 billion refinery at Port Qasim
June 20, 2006
UAE company (Emaar) to invest $20.4 billion in Pakistan`s real estate sector
June 1, 2006
UAE`s telecom giant Etisalat wins PTCL bidding with $2.6 billion bid
June 19, 2005
Kuwait to setup $1.2 billion refinery at Port Qasim
June 20, 2006
UAE company (Emaar) to invest $20.4 billion in Pakistan`s real estate sector
June 1, 2006
UAE`s telecom giant Etisalat wins PTCL bidding with $2.6 billion bid
June 19, 2005
#35 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on June 22, 2006 1:43:21 pm
#34, When Benazir and Nawaz talked about roti, petrol, makaan, and kapra, they meant these things and more for themselves and their relatives - as far away as Surrey. :)
#36 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on June 22, 2006 1:49:03 pm
#32 HisExcellency {``or Punjabis aren`t as prejudiced toward Mohajirs as you think.``}
Your Excellency,
I try to be a logical person. Here is my problem. By refusing to repatriate the ``stranded`` Pakis in BD, the Paki Panjabis are sending a very clear and strong message to the Mohajirs of Karachi. Since the Paki Punjabis have no real quarrel with the ``stranded`` Pakis in BD(or ``Biharis`` as they prefer to call them and thus degrade them in some strangely racist manner), it is obvious that there is only one reason for the Paki Punjabis` stiff resistance to the repatriation. The Paki Punjabis do not want to add to the numbers of Mohajirs living in Pakistan. And, since this is type of thinking is behind the Government of Pakistan`s policy on the matter, how can any Mohajir feel loyalty toward a country that wants to keep its type of people out at all costs? I hope you understand why Mohajirs are rapidly losing their loyalty to Pakistan and how Paki Punjabis are quickly becoming the most hated people in Pakistan. Thanks for listening.
Your Excellency,
I try to be a logical person. Here is my problem. By refusing to repatriate the ``stranded`` Pakis in BD, the Paki Panjabis are sending a very clear and strong message to the Mohajirs of Karachi. Since the Paki Punjabis have no real quarrel with the ``stranded`` Pakis in BD(or ``Biharis`` as they prefer to call them and thus degrade them in some strangely racist manner), it is obvious that there is only one reason for the Paki Punjabis` stiff resistance to the repatriation. The Paki Punjabis do not want to add to the numbers of Mohajirs living in Pakistan. And, since this is type of thinking is behind the Government of Pakistan`s policy on the matter, how can any Mohajir feel loyalty toward a country that wants to keep its type of people out at all costs? I hope you understand why Mohajirs are rapidly losing their loyalty to Pakistan and how Paki Punjabis are quickly becoming the most hated people in Pakistan. Thanks for listening.
#37 Posted by HisExcellency on June 22, 2006 2:00:28 pm
re: #33
Altaf killed more fellow Karachiites and Mohajirs than any fauji or Punjabi. Faujis and Punjabis only use soccer grounds for wedding parties, but Altaf uses them as torture cells. Ever heard of Khajji ground, Azeem Ahmed Tariq & Hakeem Saeed?
Altaf killed more fellow Karachiites and Mohajirs than any fauji or Punjabi. Faujis and Punjabis only use soccer grounds for wedding parties, but Altaf uses them as torture cells. Ever heard of Khajji ground, Azeem Ahmed Tariq & Hakeem Saeed?
#38 Posted by HisExcellency on June 22, 2006 2:03:39 pm
re: #33
``By the way, the President of India is a momin``
Either he isn`t a momin... or he doesn`t like to pray for the Kashmiris and Gujrati Muslims who are suffering because of his country`s army or the party that made him President.
``By the way, the President of India is a momin``
Either he isn`t a momin... or he doesn`t like to pray for the Kashmiris and Gujrati Muslims who are suffering because of his country`s army or the party that made him President.
#39 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on June 22, 2006 2:18:04 pm
#37, HisExcellency {``Altaf killed more fellow Karachiites and Mohajirs than any fauji or Punjabi``}
Your Excellency,
Why do so many Paki Punjus use this tactic of stating some fault of others to justify or minimize their unacceptable actions? I have said before that just because Muslims kill five babies in comparison to Christians killing ten babies, it doesn`t make Islam twice as good as Christianity.
Now, please respond to the point I raised in my post #36 - and don`t post another problem as a response to the problem I presented. Thanks.
Your Excellency,
Why do so many Paki Punjus use this tactic of stating some fault of others to justify or minimize their unacceptable actions? I have said before that just because Muslims kill five babies in comparison to Christians killing ten babies, it doesn`t make Islam twice as good as Christianity.
Now, please respond to the point I raised in my post #36 - and don`t post another problem as a response to the problem I presented. Thanks.
#40 Posted by HisExcellency on June 22, 2006 2:19:04 pm
re: #36
Repatriated Biharis will probably settle in Sindh, so why would the Punjabis object? Even if they chose to settle in Punjab, the Punjabi economy can absorb them. If you can convince your Sindhi brethren (if you are prepared to accept them as such), then Punjabis, Pashtuns and Balochis will also support you.
Will Mumtaz Bhutto, Rasool Bux Palijo and Dr. Qadir Magsi agree to repatriation? Isn`t it reasonable to build consensus first?
Repatriated Biharis will probably settle in Sindh, so why would the Punjabis object? Even if they chose to settle in Punjab, the Punjabi economy can absorb them. If you can convince your Sindhi brethren (if you are prepared to accept them as such), then Punjabis, Pashtuns and Balochis will also support you.
Will Mumtaz Bhutto, Rasool Bux Palijo and Dr. Qadir Magsi agree to repatriation? Isn`t it reasonable to build consensus first?
#41 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on June 22, 2006 2:28:09 pm
#40, HisExcellency {``Repatriated Biharis will probably settle in Sindh, so why would the Punjabis object? ... If you can convince your Sindhi brethren (if you are prepared to accept them as such), then Punjabis, Pashtuns and Balochis will also support you.
Will Mumtaz Bhutto, Rasool Bux Palijo and Dr. Qadir Magsi agree to repatriation? Isn`t it reasonable to build consensus first? ``}
Your Excellency,
Here we go again, Paki Punjus playing good copy/bad cop. Yes, pass the problem off to the Sindhis and then wash your hands off. Good strategy, that is exactly why I am picking on the Punjabis - the real culprits and the real power in Pakistan. Just consider the opposition right here on Chowk - mostly Paki Punjus, led by Tahmed2, passionately resisting any mention of the ``stranded`` Pakis.
Also, why should the right of Pakis to return to their own country become a matter of consensus for other Pakis? Maybe, they should realize reality and forget about the whole mess. A number of them have converted to Christianity and may easily obtain visas to emigrate to the West. Then we Pakis will have another motivated group to hate Pakistan - joining the Ahmedis, the Baluchis, and Gilgitis, along with the Mohajirs.
Will Mumtaz Bhutto, Rasool Bux Palijo and Dr. Qadir Magsi agree to repatriation? Isn`t it reasonable to build consensus first? ``}
Your Excellency,
Here we go again, Paki Punjus playing good copy/bad cop. Yes, pass the problem off to the Sindhis and then wash your hands off. Good strategy, that is exactly why I am picking on the Punjabis - the real culprits and the real power in Pakistan. Just consider the opposition right here on Chowk - mostly Paki Punjus, led by Tahmed2, passionately resisting any mention of the ``stranded`` Pakis.
Also, why should the right of Pakis to return to their own country become a matter of consensus for other Pakis? Maybe, they should realize reality and forget about the whole mess. A number of them have converted to Christianity and may easily obtain visas to emigrate to the West. Then we Pakis will have another motivated group to hate Pakistan - joining the Ahmedis, the Baluchis, and Gilgitis, along with the Mohajirs.
#42 Posted by HisExcellency on June 22, 2006 2:28:14 pm
re: #36
Why would Mohajirs lose loyalty to Pakistan when they are already governing Pakistan? There are Mohajir generals, Mohajir governors, Mohajir ministers and Mohajir bureaucrats... There are Mohajirs who vote for MQM... and Mohajirs who vote against him. There are Mohajirs who live in Karachi... and there are Mohajirs who have settled in Lahore.
You are painting them as a monolithic community (which they are not) and a suppressed minority (which they once were, 20 years ago).
Why would Mohajirs lose loyalty to Pakistan when they are already governing Pakistan? There are Mohajir generals, Mohajir governors, Mohajir ministers and Mohajir bureaucrats... There are Mohajirs who vote for MQM... and Mohajirs who vote against him. There are Mohajirs who live in Karachi... and there are Mohajirs who have settled in Lahore.
You are painting them as a monolithic community (which they are not) and a suppressed minority (which they once were, 20 years ago).
#43 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on June 22, 2006 2:33:25 pm
Your Excellency #42,
The repatriation of ``stranded`` Pakis is one of the two most embarrassing, harmful, and pernicious issues affecting Pakistan`s image and position. The other one is the ``legalized`` persecution and oppression of the Ahmedis.
How can Pakistan claim to be for the ``freedom`` of Kashmiri Muslims when it refuses to acknowledge its own Muslim citizens ``stranded`` in Bangladesh?
How can Pakistan appear to be sincere about the suffering of Palestinians, when it cannot alleviate the suffering of its own citizens ``stranded`` in Bangladesh?
Am I the only one who can see the ridiculous position that Pakistan has put itself into? Are our Paki Punju citizens so mired in hatred of Mohajirs that they can`t see the harm being done to Pakistan?
The repatriation of ``stranded`` Pakis is one of the two most embarrassing, harmful, and pernicious issues affecting Pakistan`s image and position. The other one is the ``legalized`` persecution and oppression of the Ahmedis.
How can Pakistan claim to be for the ``freedom`` of Kashmiri Muslims when it refuses to acknowledge its own Muslim citizens ``stranded`` in Bangladesh?
How can Pakistan appear to be sincere about the suffering of Palestinians, when it cannot alleviate the suffering of its own citizens ``stranded`` in Bangladesh?
Am I the only one who can see the ridiculous position that Pakistan has put itself into? Are our Paki Punju citizens so mired in hatred of Mohajirs that they can`t see the harm being done to Pakistan?
#44 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on June 22, 2006 2:36:01 pm
HisExcellency #42 {``Why would Mohajirs lose loyalty to Pakistan when they are already governing Pakistan? There are Mohajir generals, Mohajir governors, Mohajir ministers and Mohajir bureaucrats... ``}
Your Excellency,
Here we go again. Let me just go back to my Indian example and you will immediately note the senseless nature of that statement.
Why would Kashmiri Muslims want freedom from India when they are already governing Kashmir - democratically may I add? There are Kashmiri Muslim general, Kashmiri Muslim governors, Kashmiri Muslim ministrs, and Kashmiri Muslim bureaucrats.
Your Excellency,
Here we go again. Let me just go back to my Indian example and you will immediately note the senseless nature of that statement.
Why would Kashmiri Muslims want freedom from India when they are already governing Kashmir - democratically may I add? There are Kashmiri Muslim general, Kashmiri Muslim governors, Kashmiri Muslim ministrs, and Kashmiri Muslim bureaucrats.
#45 Posted by HisExcellency on June 22, 2006 2:40:38 pm
re: #41
If Punjabis support repatriation, Sindhis will hate them for imposing their will and turning Sindhis into a minority in their own province. If Punjabis don`t support repatriation, some Mohajirs will hate them for not letting them increase their votebank.
Punjabis will get the flak either way. But opposing repatriation with draw less flak because there are more Sindhis than Mohajirs :)
If Punjabis support repatriation, Sindhis will hate them for imposing their will and turning Sindhis into a minority in their own province. If Punjabis don`t support repatriation, some Mohajirs will hate them for not letting them increase their votebank.
Punjabis will get the flak either way. But opposing repatriation with draw less flak because there are more Sindhis than Mohajirs :)
#46 Posted by HisExcellency on June 22, 2006 3:03:06 pm
re: #44
Why would Kashmiri Muslims want freedom from India when they are already governing Kashmir
New Delhi installed puppet govts in Kashmir from day one... and crushed even political demands with military force. The Kashmir freedom struggle is an ideological one linked to the Two Nation Theory. Kashmiri Muslims are the majority in their state. This majority has been denied the right of self-determination.
Here is the contrast...
Mohajirs are a minority in Sindh. Ever since they formed a political party and won elections, they have been running the government of Karachi. They have been running KMC, the largest metropolitan corporation in Pakistan. Yet instead of creating employment for Mohajir youth, the MQM recruited killers like Fahim Commando in the KMC. When fellow Mohajirs objected, the MQM turned its guns on them.
This is because the MQM is not an ideological party. It has no ideology except to protect the Mohajirs. The injustices it seeks to address occurred 20-30 years ago. But Mohajirs have moved on. They are now part and parcel of Pakistani society whereas MQM is still living in the past.
Mohajirs are losing faith in MQM. Not in Pakistan.
Why would Kashmiri Muslims want freedom from India when they are already governing Kashmir
New Delhi installed puppet govts in Kashmir from day one... and crushed even political demands with military force. The Kashmir freedom struggle is an ideological one linked to the Two Nation Theory. Kashmiri Muslims are the majority in their state. This majority has been denied the right of self-determination.
Here is the contrast...
Mohajirs are a minority in Sindh. Ever since they formed a political party and won elections, they have been running the government of Karachi. They have been running KMC, the largest metropolitan corporation in Pakistan. Yet instead of creating employment for Mohajir youth, the MQM recruited killers like Fahim Commando in the KMC. When fellow Mohajirs objected, the MQM turned its guns on them.
This is because the MQM is not an ideological party. It has no ideology except to protect the Mohajirs. The injustices it seeks to address occurred 20-30 years ago. But Mohajirs have moved on. They are now part and parcel of Pakistani society whereas MQM is still living in the past.
Mohajirs are losing faith in MQM. Not in Pakistan.
#47 Posted by HisExcellency on June 22, 2006 3:22:46 pm
re: #43
So repatriation of 1 million Biharis is more important than providing jobs to 35 million Sindhis? I thought you were a logical person.
Let`s talk about present issues, instead of past ones. Let`s also talk about issues that affect most Pakistanis, instead of a small minority. Repatriation and Anti-Ahmediyya laws are non issues for the vast majority of Pakistanis. This might change in 10 years when income levels and literacy rates improve more.
Until then, why don`t you think about convincing the Sindhis and Khatam-e-Rasaalat Committee to soften its position on repatriation and Anti-Ahmediyya laws??
So repatriation of 1 million Biharis is more important than providing jobs to 35 million Sindhis? I thought you were a logical person.
Let`s talk about present issues, instead of past ones. Let`s also talk about issues that affect most Pakistanis, instead of a small minority. Repatriation and Anti-Ahmediyya laws are non issues for the vast majority of Pakistanis. This might change in 10 years when income levels and literacy rates improve more.
Until then, why don`t you think about convincing the Sindhis and Khatam-e-Rasaalat Committee to soften its position on repatriation and Anti-Ahmediyya laws??
#48 Posted by HisExcellency on June 22, 2006 3:33:06 pm
re: #43
The APHC`s refusal to talk to Manmohan Singh without Pakistan proves that Pakistan enjoys the confidence of Kashmiris despite the repatriation (non)issue. Clearly, your fears about this issue damaging Pakistan`s Kashmir cause are unfounded.
The APHC`s refusal to talk to Manmohan Singh without Pakistan proves that Pakistan enjoys the confidence of Kashmiris despite the repatriation (non)issue. Clearly, your fears about this issue damaging Pakistan`s Kashmir cause are unfounded.
#49 Posted by arjun_m on June 22, 2006 4:53:13 pm
#46 by HisExcellency on June 22, 2006 3:03pm PT
Kashmiri Muslims are the majority in their state.
non-Kashmiri Indians are a majority in India and if they say Indian Kahmir is part of India, there ain`t anything you can do about it..
reality...you should try it sometime..
Kashmiri Muslims are the majority in their state.
non-Kashmiri Indians are a majority in India and if they say Indian Kahmir is part of India, there ain`t anything you can do about it..
reality...you should try it sometime..
#50 Posted by HisExcellency on June 22, 2006 5:17:07 pm
re: #49
Try this chest thumping in Srinagar... I only fire arguments. There you would have to face bullets fired by Kashmiri Muslims.
Try this chest thumping in Srinagar... I only fire arguments. There you would have to face bullets fired by Kashmiri Muslims.
#51 Posted by hamidm2 on June 22, 2006 8:37:52 pm
salim mian,
.......... i think you are being totally ridiculous about this punjabi thing .... heck most punjabis don`t even speak punjabi once they get an eighth grade education .......... it is a dying breed and nobody seems to care ......
#52 Posted by bjk on June 22, 2006 9:30:25 pm
#50 by HisExcellency
[I only fire arguments. There you would have to face bullets fired by Kashmiri Muslims.]
Ummah yaar, the problems with your lot is you think that (1) Kashmiri Muslims are one block of humanity just waiting in unison to cross over to the land of the Pure (2) they carry a disproportionate number of arms – or are better fighters than those who are on the Indian side.
Both of these assumptions are false. Clearly, Kashmiris are either not very enthusiastic about the idea, or are too lazy, or incompetent to fight – or you guys won’t be sending in foreign fighters!
Those “respectable” Pakistanis who look the other way and are not vocal about these slimey tactics are the scum of the earth (Guys like you are not the scum, of course! There is no need to insult the same object!) – and the main reason why that country finds itself in the pits that it is in today.
And all the lipstick on the pig of Islamic terrorism being waged by Pakistan in Kashmir will be wasted lipstick. The world sees it for what it is – but more important, Indians of all sections and sects see it for what it is!
I don’t hold any particular community in Pakistan (e.g., Punjabis) responsible for this current sorry state of affairs – the chicanery, the lack of balls to face the truth, and the lack of courage to make a bold new start by admitting the wrongs of the past in an open manner.
I think it is the mindset!
The mindset that was perhaps latent well beforehand but got incurably reinforced by that first Islamic terrorist of the subcontinent – that haraami Jinnah – your “father”!
Guess what, dear “children” of Jinnah – your “father” committed rape to create you! And he raped his own “mother” – the one that gave him birth and sustenance!
That makes all of you – yes, ALL of you Jinnah lovers – illegitimate offspring of your rapist “father”!
It is only natural that you try to avenge this dishonor – by killing the weaker sections of your society!
It is the Pakistani way!
Because it is the Jinnah way!
#53 Posted by Sanatani on June 22, 2006 11:15:06 pm
Re: # 26
Salim Chauhan writes ``may I suggest that Pakistan reunify with really democratic India and stop this tinkering with pseudo-democratic facades``.
Shri Chauhan we dont want you back till you people do Shuddhi and become Hindu. (Take your pick Sahejendra, Saligram, Shatrughan, Shiv, Shankar, Shatrujit ... you get the point)
Also take the large majority (no all) of your cousins here with you. Then you will become a majority and then you can give the Punjabi Mussalmans the boot and make them Muhajirs (by sending them to Afghan aapne yeh to nahin socha we would take them in Sri Bharat Varsha). Though I have my doubts whether Afghan would take them.
You have an obsession for the Biharis in BDesh, my obsession is similar the Hindus in Pak and BDesh (I yearn for the day there would be a law that would give evry Hindu, Sikh, Budh and Jain the right of return to India from these nations). But sir there is a difference the Hindus have tried their best to adapt to the circumstances and accepted that under Islam they will at best be 2nd class citizens. But let us look at the conduct of the Biharis? Or let us not would be too painful for you.
Regards and Sympathies (You could also express the same to me)
Sanatani
Salim Chauhan writes ``may I suggest that Pakistan reunify with really democratic India and stop this tinkering with pseudo-democratic facades``.
Shri Chauhan we dont want you back till you people do Shuddhi and become Hindu. (Take your pick Sahejendra, Saligram, Shatrughan, Shiv, Shankar, Shatrujit ... you get the point)
Also take the large majority (no all) of your cousins here with you. Then you will become a majority and then you can give the Punjabi Mussalmans the boot and make them Muhajirs (by sending them to Afghan aapne yeh to nahin socha we would take them in Sri Bharat Varsha). Though I have my doubts whether Afghan would take them.
You have an obsession for the Biharis in BDesh, my obsession is similar the Hindus in Pak and BDesh (I yearn for the day there would be a law that would give evry Hindu, Sikh, Budh and Jain the right of return to India from these nations). But sir there is a difference the Hindus have tried their best to adapt to the circumstances and accepted that under Islam they will at best be 2nd class citizens. But let us look at the conduct of the Biharis? Or let us not would be too painful for you.
Regards and Sympathies (You could also express the same to me)
Sanatani
#54 Posted by harish_hyd on June 23, 2006 12:54:24 am
#38 by HisExcellency
Either he isn`t a momin... or he doesn`t like to pray for the Kashmiris and Gujrati Muslims who are suffering because of his country`s army or the party that made him President.
Your knowledge of India`s polity is as good as your knowledge of anything else, which is pathetic. The BJP didn`t elect the President. It only proposed his name. It is upto the electoral college which comprises of state legislature members and the Parliament that elects him. Usually, Presidents are elected unanimously and in the case of Abdul Kalam, it was overwhelmingly unanimous. Kalam is the slap in the Paki face. A Muslim who spearheaded India`s missile development program and a Muslim President when all along, Pakis were taught that Hindus discriminated against Muslims.
Again, going by your logic, if the Indian Army oppresses Kashmiris, why didn`t it do that before 1989 when Pakistan started training and arming terrorists? And why is there such a huge turnout of voters (sometimes it exceeds that of other states in India) whenever there is an election. Mind you, these elections are not the referendum-type when Mushy declared he had 97% endorsement. There were international observers deployed throughout the state.
And Gujarati Muslims are suffering because of the Indian Army? There you go again displaying your utter lack of knowledge. The Gujarat riots started to abate only after the Army took over from the local police. Sometimes it pays to read neutral newspapers.
Either he isn`t a momin... or he doesn`t like to pray for the Kashmiris and Gujrati Muslims who are suffering because of his country`s army or the party that made him President.
Your knowledge of India`s polity is as good as your knowledge of anything else, which is pathetic. The BJP didn`t elect the President. It only proposed his name. It is upto the electoral college which comprises of state legislature members and the Parliament that elects him. Usually, Presidents are elected unanimously and in the case of Abdul Kalam, it was overwhelmingly unanimous. Kalam is the slap in the Paki face. A Muslim who spearheaded India`s missile development program and a Muslim President when all along, Pakis were taught that Hindus discriminated against Muslims.
Again, going by your logic, if the Indian Army oppresses Kashmiris, why didn`t it do that before 1989 when Pakistan started training and arming terrorists? And why is there such a huge turnout of voters (sometimes it exceeds that of other states in India) whenever there is an election. Mind you, these elections are not the referendum-type when Mushy declared he had 97% endorsement. There were international observers deployed throughout the state.
And Gujarati Muslims are suffering because of the Indian Army? There you go again displaying your utter lack of knowledge. The Gujarat riots started to abate only after the Army took over from the local police. Sometimes it pays to read neutral newspapers.
#55 Posted by harish_hyd on June 23, 2006 12:55:12 am
#46 by HisExcellency
New Delhi installed puppet govts in Kashmir from day one... and crushed even political demands with military force.
So tell us why are the ``non-puppet`` candidates in Azad Kashmir required to swear allegiance to Pakistan by signing an undertaking in the nomination form which states that he/she whole-heartedly supports the accession of J&K to Pakistan? Amanullah Khan of the JKLF was refused to contest elections because he refused to sign this undertaking.
New Delhi installed puppet govts in Kashmir from day one... and crushed even political demands with military force.
So tell us why are the ``non-puppet`` candidates in Azad Kashmir required to swear allegiance to Pakistan by signing an undertaking in the nomination form which states that he/she whole-heartedly supports the accession of J&K to Pakistan? Amanullah Khan of the JKLF was refused to contest elections because he refused to sign this undertaking.
#56 Posted by harish_hyd on June 23, 2006 12:57:12 am
#55 by harish_hyd
Amanullah Khan of the JKLF was refused to contest elections because he refused to sign this undertaking.
should read:
Amanullah Khan of the JKLF was not allowed to contest elections because he refused to sign this undertaking.
Amanullah Khan of the JKLF was refused to contest elections because he refused to sign this undertaking.
should read:
Amanullah Khan of the JKLF was not allowed to contest elections because he refused to sign this undertaking.
#57 Posted by majumdar on June 23, 2006 1:46:09 am
Harishbhai/HE sahib
(Either he isn`t a momin... or he doesn`t like to pray for the Kashmiris and Gujrati Muslims who are suffering because of his country`s army or the party that made him President. )
Kalam can`t be a momin, he has to start carpet bombing Waziristan and Wana at the behest of the Americans before he can call himself a momin.
Regards
(Either he isn`t a momin... or he doesn`t like to pray for the Kashmiris and Gujrati Muslims who are suffering because of his country`s army or the party that made him President. )
Kalam can`t be a momin, he has to start carpet bombing Waziristan and Wana at the behest of the Americans before he can call himself a momin.
Regards
#58 Posted by harish_hyd on June 23, 2006 3:02:26 am
#57 by majumdar
Kalam can`t be a momin, he has to start carpet bombing Waziristan and Wana at the behest of the Americans before he can call himself a momin.
Any Muslim who doesn`t act in accordance with Paki perceptions of a given situation (however far from reality it be), he isn`t a Momeen.
Kalam can`t be a momin, he has to start carpet bombing Waziristan and Wana at the behest of the Americans before he can call himself a momin.
Any Muslim who doesn`t act in accordance with Paki perceptions of a given situation (however far from reality it be), he isn`t a Momeen.
#59 Posted by zeemax on June 23, 2006 3:39:03 am
#51 by hamidm2
.......... it is a dying breed and nobody seems to care ......
It`s a real shame. It appears Punjabis only switched to Urdu post-partition in a desire for an identity seperate and distinct from their East Punjab counterpart, as well as Urdu being the national language and all that necessary to compete in services etc..
Is there any other reason?
On a side note, Art Buchwald has been in a hospice for some time and may conk out soon. Your dialogues appear largely influenced by his style. How about your taking over .. i.e. if you have a longer shelf-life ...:)
.......... it is a dying breed and nobody seems to care ......
It`s a real shame. It appears Punjabis only switched to Urdu post-partition in a desire for an identity seperate and distinct from their East Punjab counterpart, as well as Urdu being the national language and all that necessary to compete in services etc..
Is there any other reason?
On a side note, Art Buchwald has been in a hospice for some time and may conk out soon. Your dialogues appear largely influenced by his style. How about your taking over .. i.e. if you have a longer shelf-life ...:)
#60 Posted by bjk on June 23, 2006 3:55:18 am
#59
[On a side note, Art Buchwald has been in a hospice for some time and may conk out soon. Your dialogues appear largely influenced by his style. How about your taking over .. i.e. if you have a longer shelf-life ...:) ]
Ama yaar, for old H2 to seamlessly step into those shoes - the name would have to be
#61 Posted by hshahbaz on June 23, 2006 6:17:47 am
Mr. Salim Chauhan, why don`t you understand that if a person supports democracy that does not mean in anyway that he necessarily supports any of the existing parties. I am not trying to prove that NS and BB were saints or something, i am saying that the only way democracy can be improved is by democracy only. Is it not true that Musharraf will readily team up with any of the two if they agree to his terms. Is it also not true that Musharraf is working with the same corrupt politicians who solidified Nawaz`s rule. Why is it that only Nawaz gets the blame. Each and every supporter of mushy is the same who vehemently supported Nawaz`s curroption. Plus, how much is Musharraf doing about the Biharis??? nothing as far as i know. Probably even you would be abusing him tommorow if MQM goes out of the govt. and riots become abundant in khi once again because mushy is not going to give a rat`s ass for the karachites as long as he is in power.
With these comments i should make clear that i in no way support khi bashing, it is only that throught the true establishment of democracy can we achieve the aims u outlined. and not by partial democracy which only runs for a few years and then a general comes in again donning a saviour`s suit. democracy should be given a chance!!!!!
With these comments i should make clear that i in no way support khi bashing, it is only that throught the true establishment of democracy can we achieve the aims u outlined. and not by partial democracy which only runs for a few years and then a general comes in again donning a saviour`s suit. democracy should be given a chance!!!!!
#62 Posted by Sanatani on June 23, 2006 7:33:47 am
Re: # 26
Saligram er sorry, Shatrughan er sorry, Shankar er sorry, Sahejendra er sorry, Salim Chauhan writes ``Gen. Aslam Baig, a Paki Mohajir general``.
``Paki Mohajir general`` is like Holy Roman Empire not Holy, not at all Roman much less an Empire.
Regards
Sanatani
Shailendra Singh Chauhan Ghar Vapsi Kariye. Jai Shree Ram
Saligram er sorry, Shatrughan er sorry, Shankar er sorry, Sahejendra er sorry, Salim Chauhan writes ``Gen. Aslam Baig, a Paki Mohajir general``.
``Paki Mohajir general`` is like Holy Roman Empire not Holy, not at all Roman much less an Empire.
Regards
Sanatani
Shailendra Singh Chauhan Ghar Vapsi Kariye. Jai Shree Ram
#63 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on June 23, 2006 8:45:22 am
His Excellency #45 {``If Punjabis support repatriation, Sindhis will hate them for imposing their will and turning Sindhis into a minority in their own province. If Punjabis don`t support repatriation, some Mohajirs will hate them for not letting them increase their votebank.
Punjabis will get the flak either way. But opposing repatriation with draw less flak because there are more Sindhis than Mohajirs :)``}
#47 {``So repatriation of 1 million Biharis is more important than providing jobs to 35 million Sindhis? I thought you were a logical person.
...Until then, why don`t you think about convincing the Sindhis and Khatam-e-Rasaalat Committee to soften its position on repatriation and Anti-Ahmediyya laws??``}
Your Excellency,
Thank you for answering my long-suffering question. You are the first Paki Punjabi to provide a real answer - I appreciate your decency and honesty in this matter. Also, thank you for putting the response in such clear metrics. I am pleased to note that Paki Punjus can count and also tell wind direction. As long as morality, decency, legality, and the right thing to do are expressed in numbers, let me indulge in some numerology myself:
There are 15 million Mohajirs. Although they have the highest literacy rate in Pakistan and they account for a large chunk of the GDP, they will never equal in numbers the population of Sindhis - thanks to the latter`s productive use of polygamy. Repatriation of 300,000 ``stranded`` Urdu-speaking Muslim Pakis from BD will not alter that balance. Yes, there are now only approximately 300,000 stranded Pakis there, instead of the 1 million you stated. Perhaps the embarrassingly high infant mortality rate among Sindhis may undo what you guys want to avoid. Maybe your emphasis is on the wrong approach.
Many Mohajirs don`t give a damn about Kashmir. Why would we want to add another 5 million or so to the numbers of our tormentors and create another group of ``sons of the soil - pisser-e-zameen?`` Also, if miraculously (over Arjun`s dead body), if Kashmir ever did become part of Pakistan, the Muslims of India, many of them being the Mohajirs` relatives, would have to pay the price with riots, massacres, rapes, looting, and arson. Please be logical. Is the facade of independence for 5 million Kashmiri Muslims worth the lives and safety of 115 million plus Indian Muslims? It`s a game of numbers, isn`t it?
Considering how much attention Paki Punjus pay to numbers, where was their sense of counting when they alienated 75 million Bengali Pakis in 1971? Also, why did Maha Punju dictator, Zia-ul-Haq, admit 3 million Afghan refugees that destroyed the fabric of a nation of 130 million? Somehow, I think that the Paki Punju sense of numerology and logic is quite subjective and not all that metric as you would have us believe. Thanks for your honesty, anyway.
As for requesting extremists to soften their views, why don`t you request Al Kayda and the Tally Ban if they would consider softening their views (and actions)?
Punjabis will get the flak either way. But opposing repatriation with draw less flak because there are more Sindhis than Mohajirs :)``}
#47 {``So repatriation of 1 million Biharis is more important than providing jobs to 35 million Sindhis? I thought you were a logical person.
...Until then, why don`t you think about convincing the Sindhis and Khatam-e-Rasaalat Committee to soften its position on repatriation and Anti-Ahmediyya laws??``}
Your Excellency,
Thank you for answering my long-suffering question. You are the first Paki Punjabi to provide a real answer - I appreciate your decency and honesty in this matter. Also, thank you for putting the response in such clear metrics. I am pleased to note that Paki Punjus can count and also tell wind direction. As long as morality, decency, legality, and the right thing to do are expressed in numbers, let me indulge in some numerology myself:
There are 15 million Mohajirs. Although they have the highest literacy rate in Pakistan and they account for a large chunk of the GDP, they will never equal in numbers the population of Sindhis - thanks to the latter`s productive use of polygamy. Repatriation of 300,000 ``stranded`` Urdu-speaking Muslim Pakis from BD will not alter that balance. Yes, there are now only approximately 300,000 stranded Pakis there, instead of the 1 million you stated. Perhaps the embarrassingly high infant mortality rate among Sindhis may undo what you guys want to avoid. Maybe your emphasis is on the wrong approach.
Many Mohajirs don`t give a damn about Kashmir. Why would we want to add another 5 million or so to the numbers of our tormentors and create another group of ``sons of the soil - pisser-e-zameen?`` Also, if miraculously (over Arjun`s dead body), if Kashmir ever did become part of Pakistan, the Muslims of India, many of them being the Mohajirs` relatives, would have to pay the price with riots, massacres, rapes, looting, and arson. Please be logical. Is the facade of independence for 5 million Kashmiri Muslims worth the lives and safety of 115 million plus Indian Muslims? It`s a game of numbers, isn`t it?
Considering how much attention Paki Punjus pay to numbers, where was their sense of counting when they alienated 75 million Bengali Pakis in 1971? Also, why did Maha Punju dictator, Zia-ul-Haq, admit 3 million Afghan refugees that destroyed the fabric of a nation of 130 million? Somehow, I think that the Paki Punju sense of numerology and logic is quite subjective and not all that metric as you would have us believe. Thanks for your honesty, anyway.
As for requesting extremists to soften their views, why don`t you request Al Kayda and the Tally Ban if they would consider softening their views (and actions)?
#64 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on June 23, 2006 9:13:36 am
Sanatani #62, {````Paki Mohajir general`` is like Holy Roman Empire not Holy, not at all Roman much less an Empire. ``}
Sanatani,
That is funny LOL. Thank you for suggesting some excellent names for my use. I kind of like the Saligram one - before I change, what does it mean?
By the way, is your name ``sanatani`` somehow pertaining to ``Suntan?`` Jai Shree Ram, Khuda aap ko khush rakhey, mere bhai. Allah Ishwar ek hi naam - I mean it.
Sanatani,
That is funny LOL. Thank you for suggesting some excellent names for my use. I kind of like the Saligram one - before I change, what does it mean?
By the way, is your name ``sanatani`` somehow pertaining to ``Suntan?`` Jai Shree Ram, Khuda aap ko khush rakhey, mere bhai. Allah Ishwar ek hi naam - I mean it.
#65 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on June 23, 2006 9:21:04 am
hshahbaz #61
Shahbaz Sahib,
Thank you for your decent and sincere post. In principle, I agree with your desire to have a democratic Pakistan. How we get there is the issue. As far as Mushy is concerned, I am under no delusions concerning his sense of morality or justice. After all, he is a product of the Paki Army - an institution that has never won a war outside its borders and has lost one or two within. I prefer Mushy over the Sindhi/Punju ``democratic`` politicians for the simple fact that, being a Mohajir, somehow restrains him from committing the blatant massacres perpetrated by his predecessors. It`s akin to the Jewish overseers at Nazi concentration camps - they were slightly less cruel than the real animals.
As I mentioned before, democracy is the solution - provided that the prerequisites be in place for its permanence and effectiveness. I had stated some suggestions (dividing up the four provinces into 12 or more, English as official national language, secular state, repeal of anti-Ahmadi nonsense, and repatriation of ``stranded`` Pakis from BD). Thanks for listening.
Contray to common Punju propaganda on Chowk, I am neither Ahmadi nor Bihari and do not have any relatives or friends in these communities. My passion for their suffering is based solely on morality, decency, and the fact that the same could happen to people like me.
Shahbaz Sahib,
Thank you for your decent and sincere post. In principle, I agree with your desire to have a democratic Pakistan. How we get there is the issue. As far as Mushy is concerned, I am under no delusions concerning his sense of morality or justice. After all, he is a product of the Paki Army - an institution that has never won a war outside its borders and has lost one or two within. I prefer Mushy over the Sindhi/Punju ``democratic`` politicians for the simple fact that, being a Mohajir, somehow restrains him from committing the blatant massacres perpetrated by his predecessors. It`s akin to the Jewish overseers at Nazi concentration camps - they were slightly less cruel than the real animals.
As I mentioned before, democracy is the solution - provided that the prerequisites be in place for its permanence and effectiveness. I had stated some suggestions (dividing up the four provinces into 12 or more, English as official national language, secular state, repeal of anti-Ahmadi nonsense, and repatriation of ``stranded`` Pakis from BD). Thanks for listening.
Contray to common Punju propaganda on Chowk, I am neither Ahmadi nor Bihari and do not have any relatives or friends in these communities. My passion for their suffering is based solely on morality, decency, and the fact that the same could happen to people like me.
#66 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on June 23, 2006 9:24:18 am
Hamidm2 #51 {``salim mian,
.......... i think you are being totally ridiculous about this punjabi thing .... heck most punjabis don`t even speak punjabi once they get an eighth grade education .......... it is a dying breed and nobody seems to care ......``}
Hamidm Sahib,
Will they hurry it up, please?
Seriously, if nobody cares, the message did not get through to Mullah Tahmed4, Ali1, and Atif2 - all numerically-suffixed Paki Punjus gloating over their racist, prejudiced, and shameless bigotry while proclaiming superiority of Punjuhood.
.......... i think you are being totally ridiculous about this punjabi thing .... heck most punjabis don`t even speak punjabi once they get an eighth grade education .......... it is a dying breed and nobody seems to care ......``}
Hamidm Sahib,
Will they hurry it up, please?
Seriously, if nobody cares, the message did not get through to Mullah Tahmed4, Ali1, and Atif2 - all numerically-suffixed Paki Punjus gloating over their racist, prejudiced, and shameless bigotry while proclaiming superiority of Punjuhood.
#67 Posted by akpower on June 23, 2006 10:29:27 am
Re: # 52
BJK, I feel I know you. Are you not one of those pathetic indians that go from site to site and forum to forum to bash Pakistan or Pakistanis?? Yeah i think i guessed it right, your one of those pathetic, lifeless and misrebale individuals who have still come to terms with the India/Pakistan divide 59 yrs ago. Or maybe it is the fact that Ur Mahatmi Gandhi was considered toothless and a liar by some of your own people?? Or could it be that another one of your leaders Mr. Nehru had intimate relations with Lord Mountbatten. I`m not sure what it is, bu the frustrations truly run deep!
It eats you from within and I truly hope someday it drives you insane. There are quite a few of you here on Chowk who will poison every sensible discussion. I would never care to reply to jerks like you, but I felt enough was enough and I had to do just this one time!
BJK, I feel I know you. Are you not one of those pathetic indians that go from site to site and forum to forum to bash Pakistan or Pakistanis?? Yeah i think i guessed it right, your one of those pathetic, lifeless and misrebale individuals who have still come to terms with the India/Pakistan divide 59 yrs ago. Or maybe it is the fact that Ur Mahatmi Gandhi was considered toothless and a liar by some of your own people?? Or could it be that another one of your leaders Mr. Nehru had intimate relations with Lord Mountbatten. I`m not sure what it is, bu the frustrations truly run deep!
It eats you from within and I truly hope someday it drives you insane. There are quite a few of you here on Chowk who will poison every sensible discussion. I would never care to reply to jerks like you, but I felt enough was enough and I had to do just this one time!
#68 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on June 23, 2006 10:54:54 am
#67 akpower {``Mr. Nehru had intimate relations with Lord Mountbatten``}
Sir Power,
I don`t want to butt in during your public discourse with bjk, a fine Indian friend of Chowk. Nevertheless, I must come to the defense of the late Mr. Jawaharlal Nehru, formerly of Allahabad and Kashmir. Mr. Nehru, while proven to have banged Edwina Mountbatten, among many others, never had any intimate relations with Lord Louis - other than sharing a Cuban with the King`s cousin now and then. This is OK because the cigar smoking preceded Bill Clinton and Monica Lewnisky by at least half a century. On the other hand, the intimate meeting between Lord Louis and Hazrat Janab Mohtaram Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah Sahib Rahmatullahalaih must have been quite interesting. How can one explain an otherwise brilliant yet elderly man agreeing to the ``bag of goods,`` the proverbial ``Brooklyn Bridge,`` that Mountbatten sold him and he called a ``moth-eaten Pakistan?``
Sir Power,
I don`t want to butt in during your public discourse with bjk, a fine Indian friend of Chowk. Nevertheless, I must come to the defense of the late Mr. Jawaharlal Nehru, formerly of Allahabad and Kashmir. Mr. Nehru, while proven to have banged Edwina Mountbatten, among many others, never had any intimate relations with Lord Louis - other than sharing a Cuban with the King`s cousin now and then. This is OK because the cigar smoking preceded Bill Clinton and Monica Lewnisky by at least half a century. On the other hand, the intimate meeting between Lord Louis and Hazrat Janab Mohtaram Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah Sahib Rahmatullahalaih must have been quite interesting. How can one explain an otherwise brilliant yet elderly man agreeing to the ``bag of goods,`` the proverbial ``Brooklyn Bridge,`` that Mountbatten sold him and he called a ``moth-eaten Pakistan?``
#69 Posted by arjun_m on June 23, 2006 1:43:31 pm
#67 by akpower on June 23, 2006 10:29am PT
from site to site and forum to forum to bash Pakistan or Pakistanis
That`s right...People who ``bash`` Pakiland by posting news articles are why the world looks at Pakis as terrorists...
If weren`t for these ``bashing`` Indians, Pakis wouldn`t be singled out for ``special`` treatment when they landed at western airports..a whole bunch of pakis, from california to virginia to maryland to georgia to canada to the UK to australia, wouln`t be busted for terrorism...
the power of Indians to influence reality by posting on a web message board continues to amaze me...
from site to site and forum to forum to bash Pakistan or Pakistanis
That`s right...People who ``bash`` Pakiland by posting news articles are why the world looks at Pakis as terrorists...
If weren`t for these ``bashing`` Indians, Pakis wouldn`t be singled out for ``special`` treatment when they landed at western airports..a whole bunch of pakis, from california to virginia to maryland to georgia to canada to the UK to australia, wouln`t be busted for terrorism...
the power of Indians to influence reality by posting on a web message board continues to amaze me...
#70 Posted by HisExcellency on June 23, 2006 2:27:30 pm
re: #harish_hyd
Harish, an Indian blaming Pakistan for creating the Kashmir problem in 1989 is no saner than a Pakistani claiming that India created the Bangladesh problem in 1970.
A mother that treats some of its children as second-class citizens, does not deserve to be respected. India losts its izzat the day it forced its Muslim citizens to sing the Vande Matram and bow before the statue of a certain politician Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, who liked people to treat him like a god.
So what you really call `mother India` is a myth, an artificial entity created by the British during the 18th and 19th centuries. The provinces consituting Pakistan today were part of the Indus civilization that were forcibly occupied by the British in 19th century.
Save that mother allegory for your `nickerwallah` brethren. The subcontinent was just a conglomeration of independent families with their own heads and traditions. Our mother was the Indus Valley and it still is. Your mother is the Ganges valley. Just like the courses of these great rivers don`t meet, our histories, religions and traditions also don`t meet.
Harish, an Indian blaming Pakistan for creating the Kashmir problem in 1989 is no saner than a Pakistani claiming that India created the Bangladesh problem in 1970.
A mother that treats some of its children as second-class citizens, does not deserve to be respected. India losts its izzat the day it forced its Muslim citizens to sing the Vande Matram and bow before the statue of a certain politician Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, who liked people to treat him like a god.
So what you really call `mother India` is a myth, an artificial entity created by the British during the 18th and 19th centuries. The provinces consituting Pakistan today were part of the Indus civilization that were forcibly occupied by the British in 19th century.
Save that mother allegory for your `nickerwallah` brethren. The subcontinent was just a conglomeration of independent families with their own heads and traditions. Our mother was the Indus Valley and it still is. Your mother is the Ganges valley. Just like the courses of these great rivers don`t meet, our histories, religions and traditions also don`t meet.
#71 Posted by hshahbaz on June 23, 2006 2:43:21 pm
Mr. Salim Chauhan, i really do hope that one day you would overcome your insecurities as a Mohajir who still feels he does not belong to the country he was born in( which of course i assume). If only we could move on from our own social problems and face other problems (like these indians on these forums blatantly abusing pakistan while we fight). I know that the mohajir`s trust has been badly hurt by the punjabis which has been a big mistake but we all have to rise above this mistrust in order to survive.
Before i go, i will just add: hats off to akpower for showing the mirror to these indians who would bow before the racist gandhi but die before accepting that what jinnah did was a direct consequence of the stubborn congress who left no choice for jinnah, a die-hard nationalist to give up his idealism and look at the reality, which meant to accept atleast the ``moth-eaten Pakistan`` than rather burn in Gujarat.
Before i go, i will just add: hats off to akpower for showing the mirror to these indians who would bow before the racist gandhi but die before accepting that what jinnah did was a direct consequence of the stubborn congress who left no choice for jinnah, a die-hard nationalist to give up his idealism and look at the reality, which meant to accept atleast the ``moth-eaten Pakistan`` than rather burn in Gujarat.
#72 Posted by HisExcellency on June 23, 2006 3:06:57 pm
re: #63
Indian Muslims will only suffer if Kashmir`s independence is achieved through the gun. A negotiated settlement, on the other hand, will satisfy the humanitarian problem of Kashmir, build a durable relationship between India and Pakistan, and harmonize the relationship between Hindus and Muslims.
Two of the three parties to this conflict are today ready for a negotiated settlement. It is the third party which has stead fastly refused to settle this issue through dialogue. So your question should be posed to New Delhi. After all, it is their troops who are patrolling the streets, lakes, forests, highways, valleys, mosques, schools and bazaars of Kashmir.
Indian Muslims will only suffer if Kashmir`s independence is achieved through the gun. A negotiated settlement, on the other hand, will satisfy the humanitarian problem of Kashmir, build a durable relationship between India and Pakistan, and harmonize the relationship between Hindus and Muslims.
Two of the three parties to this conflict are today ready for a negotiated settlement. It is the third party which has stead fastly refused to settle this issue through dialogue. So your question should be posed to New Delhi. After all, it is their troops who are patrolling the streets, lakes, forests, highways, valleys, mosques, schools and bazaars of Kashmir.
#73 Posted by HisExcellency on June 23, 2006 3:08:42 pm
re: #63
I have a counter question: What has India gained from occupying Kashmir during the last 60 years? If suppressing Kashmiri Muslims makes India more secure and stable, then this policy should indeed be continued ad infinitum. But if this policy creates terrorism & communal strife (Gujrat, Babri mosque, Bombay riots) within India, then this policy must be revised in the larger interest of India.
I have a counter question: What has India gained from occupying Kashmir during the last 60 years? If suppressing Kashmiri Muslims makes India more secure and stable, then this policy should indeed be continued ad infinitum. But if this policy creates terrorism & communal strife (Gujrat, Babri mosque, Bombay riots) within India, then this policy must be revised in the larger interest of India.
#74 Posted by HisExcellency on June 23, 2006 3:11:33 pm
re: #63
++
As for requesting extremists to soften their views, why don`t you request Al Kayda and the Tally Ban if they would consider softening their views (and actions)?
++
So in your opinion any Sindhi who opposes repatriation of Biharis is a terrorist??
++
As for requesting extremists to soften their views, why don`t you request Al Kayda and the Tally Ban if they would consider softening their views (and actions)?
++
So in your opinion any Sindhi who opposes repatriation of Biharis is a terrorist??
#75 Posted by rf786 on June 23, 2006 3:18:56 pm
Re: # 68
{I must come to the defense of the late Mr. Jawaharlal Nehru, formerly of Allahabad and Kashmir. Mr. Nehru, while proven to have banged Edwina Mountbatten, among many others, never had any intimate relations with Lord Louis - other than sharing a Cuban with the King`s cousin now and then}
Incorrect, this is just another manufactured myth to protect Nehru`s hidden private life as a full blown faggot. Lord Mount-Bat- ten met Nehrujee when posted in Singapore, it was love at first sight for both, Lady Mountbatten was just the side dish used as a cover for these two closet gays.
{I must come to the defense of the late Mr. Jawaharlal Nehru, formerly of Allahabad and Kashmir. Mr. Nehru, while proven to have banged Edwina Mountbatten, among many others, never had any intimate relations with Lord Louis - other than sharing a Cuban with the King`s cousin now and then}
Incorrect, this is just another manufactured myth to protect Nehru`s hidden private life as a full blown faggot. Lord Mount-Bat- ten met Nehrujee when posted in Singapore, it was love at first sight for both, Lady Mountbatten was just the side dish used as a cover for these two closet gays.
#76 Posted by HisExcellency on June 23, 2006 3:36:23 pm
re: #63
++
There are 15 million Mohajirs. Although they have the highest literacy rate in Pakistan and they account for a large chunk of the GDP, they will never equal in numbers the population of Sindhis
++
Agreed. However, the bone of contention between Sindhis and Mohajirs is not ethnicity. It is economics. In 1947, Punjab had a surplus economy so the millions of refugees who migrated to Punjab were absorbed in the Punjabi economy.
But Sindh always had a deficit economy with little agriculture. Most Mohajirs migrated to Pakistan in the 1950s for economic reasons. These immigrants were educated, urbanized and therefore preferred to settle in Karachi, the biggest city. As a result, the already weak economy of Sindh came under more pressure. Mohajirs dominated the bureaucracy and white collar jobs of Pakistan until the 1970s when Z.A.Bhutto redressed the economic imbalance between Sindhis and Mohajirs with a quota system. This led to unemployment, prejudice, urban crime and the APMSO.
As the economy gathers pace, there will be plenty of jobs and resources for both Sindhis and Mohajirs. That will transform the Sindhi-Mohajir relationship from a competitive one to a cooperative one. When that happens, Sindhis will not feel threatened by the influx of 30,000 biharis and MQM will not try to gain political mileage from this influx either.
Poor Biharis have waited 35 years already. They can wait another 10-15 years too. It is also in their interest to return when they`ll be welcomed with open arms.
Unlike Kashmir, this is a humanitarian problem that can be solved through dialogue and economic growth.
++
There are 15 million Mohajirs. Although they have the highest literacy rate in Pakistan and they account for a large chunk of the GDP, they will never equal in numbers the population of Sindhis
++
Agreed. However, the bone of contention between Sindhis and Mohajirs is not ethnicity. It is economics. In 1947, Punjab had a surplus economy so the millions of refugees who migrated to Punjab were absorbed in the Punjabi economy.
But Sindh always had a deficit economy with little agriculture. Most Mohajirs migrated to Pakistan in the 1950s for economic reasons. These immigrants were educated, urbanized and therefore preferred to settle in Karachi, the biggest city. As a result, the already weak economy of Sindh came under more pressure. Mohajirs dominated the bureaucracy and white collar jobs of Pakistan until the 1970s when Z.A.Bhutto redressed the economic imbalance between Sindhis and Mohajirs with a quota system. This led to unemployment, prejudice, urban crime and the APMSO.
As the economy gathers pace, there will be plenty of jobs and resources for both Sindhis and Mohajirs. That will transform the Sindhi-Mohajir relationship from a competitive one to a cooperative one. When that happens, Sindhis will not feel threatened by the influx of 30,000 biharis and MQM will not try to gain political mileage from this influx either.
Poor Biharis have waited 35 years already. They can wait another 10-15 years too. It is also in their interest to return when they`ll be welcomed with open arms.
Unlike Kashmir, this is a humanitarian problem that can be solved through dialogue and economic growth.
#77 Posted by HisExcellency on June 23, 2006 3:48:00 pm
re: #63
++
Considering how much attention Paki Punjus pay to numbers, where was their sense of counting when they alienated 75 million Bengali Pakis in 1971?
++
1971 taught us a lot of things, including counting. It also taught us that nations with nuclear weapons don`t get invaded. And it taught us never to forget that we are Pakistanis and Muslims first... and Punjabis, Sindhis, Mohajirs and Baluchis later. This is why we islamized our Army, fought the Russians alongside our Afghan brothers, built a nuclear bomb and shared power with MQM, ANP, BNP and MMA when they won a clear majority at the polls.
++
Considering how much attention Paki Punjus pay to numbers, where was their sense of counting when they alienated 75 million Bengali Pakis in 1971?
++
1971 taught us a lot of things, including counting. It also taught us that nations with nuclear weapons don`t get invaded. And it taught us never to forget that we are Pakistanis and Muslims first... and Punjabis, Sindhis, Mohajirs and Baluchis later. This is why we islamized our Army, fought the Russians alongside our Afghan brothers, built a nuclear bomb and shared power with MQM, ANP, BNP and MMA when they won a clear majority at the polls.
#78 Posted by rf786 on June 23, 2006 4:00:58 pm
Re: # 76
HE
Some historical perspective please, APMSO came into being well after the Jeay Sindh, Pushtun Students (PSF), Baluch Students (BSF) and Punjabi students federation. All these student parties were active in Karachi educational institutions while the urdu speaking students wud congregate with JTI or the leftist/liberals. While the four provinces had their active ethnic political parties and were accepted by the major parties, urdu speaking boys and girls were marginalized to mainstream political parties. Not only did these ethnic parties support their kin, they openly differentiated against the urdu speaking population of karachi and hyderabad. Bhutto made it ever more easier to discriminate against the urdu speaking population by imposing quotas in universities and jobs and pursueing policies of disenfranchising mohajirs.
If Punjab was such a huge surplus economy, then why did all migrants come to karachi? Three reasons: Karachi had a small but diverse population, being the capital became the obvious choice for migrants and finally Punjab was unwilling to accept migrants. This economic story holds no water because Pakistan at the time of partition had no economy, everything started from the scratch and was helped in early days by the nawab of junagadh, Habib family and other rich Mohajir families.
Economic imbalance cud have been corrected by opening schools in poor localities, setting up businesses in the interior, diversifying the economy and not murdering it by nationalizing industries and banks. Fact is,such ideas reek of racial tensions and used to suppress minorities.
HE
Some historical perspective please, APMSO came into being well after the Jeay Sindh, Pushtun Students (PSF), Baluch Students (BSF) and Punjabi students federation. All these student parties were active in Karachi educational institutions while the urdu speaking students wud congregate with JTI or the leftist/liberals. While the four provinces had their active ethnic political parties and were accepted by the major parties, urdu speaking boys and girls were marginalized to mainstream political parties. Not only did these ethnic parties support their kin, they openly differentiated against the urdu speaking population of karachi and hyderabad. Bhutto made it ever more easier to discriminate against the urdu speaking population by imposing quotas in universities and jobs and pursueing policies of disenfranchising mohajirs.
If Punjab was such a huge surplus economy, then why did all migrants come to karachi? Three reasons: Karachi had a small but diverse population, being the capital became the obvious choice for migrants and finally Punjab was unwilling to accept migrants. This economic story holds no water because Pakistan at the time of partition had no economy, everything started from the scratch and was helped in early days by the nawab of junagadh, Habib family and other rich Mohajir families.
Economic imbalance cud have been corrected by opening schools in poor localities, setting up businesses in the interior, diversifying the economy and not murdering it by nationalizing industries and banks. Fact is,such ideas reek of racial tensions and used to suppress minorities.
#79 Posted by HisExcellency on June 23, 2006 5:35:10 pm
re: #78
FYI, Punjab was the breadbasket of British India. The British built the most extensive canal system in the world to produce wheat, rice and cotton not only for its troops but also the rest of India. In addition, there were dozens of stud farms (called Remount Depots) across upper Punjab that were used for training the horseback regiments of Police and military.
To manage the revenue from these enterprises, the British recruited thousands of landlords into the British Indian Army and made them tax collectors. This military-agriculture complex created enormous wealth not only for the British but also for the Legharis, Tiwanas, Noons, Daultanas and Sahibzadas who swore loyalty to the British. Although this wealth was concentrated in few hands, at the time of partition, there was enough to feed to the millions of refugees who poured into Lahore.
Most Urdu-speaking refugees migrated to Karachi not because Punjab didn`t have jobs... but because these jobs were agrarian, whereas the Urdu-speaking refugees sought white collar private sector and government jobs that only Karachi could offer. Very soon Karachi become overpopulated.
FYI, Punjab was the breadbasket of British India. The British built the most extensive canal system in the world to produce wheat, rice and cotton not only for its troops but also the rest of India. In addition, there were dozens of stud farms (called Remount Depots) across upper Punjab that were used for training the horseback regiments of Police and military.
To manage the revenue from these enterprises, the British recruited thousands of landlords into the British Indian Army and made them tax collectors. This military-agriculture complex created enormous wealth not only for the British but also for the Legharis, Tiwanas, Noons, Daultanas and Sahibzadas who swore loyalty to the British. Although this wealth was concentrated in few hands, at the time of partition, there was enough to feed to the millions of refugees who poured into Lahore.
Most Urdu-speaking refugees migrated to Karachi not because Punjab didn`t have jobs... but because these jobs were agrarian, whereas the Urdu-speaking refugees sought white collar private sector and government jobs that only Karachi could offer. Very soon Karachi become overpopulated.
#80 Posted by HisExcellency on June 23, 2006 5:43:58 pm
re: #78
++
Economic imbalance cud have been corrected by opening schools in poor localities, setting up businesses in the interior, diversifying the economy and not murdering it by nationalizing industries and banks
++
In hindsight, nationalization was a mistake. But it was a popular one. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto won a heavy mandate in West Pakistan from a socialist platform. And he wasn`t even Punjabi.
Schools create employable people, but not (enough) employment. For that you need infrastructure projects, which is what Pakistan did during the 1960s and 70s. Organizations like PTCL, WAPDA, PIA, Railways, OGDC, SGNPL, SGSPL, ADBP and Steel Mills were created during this era to create employment for both white collar and blue collar workers. Many Mohajirs got jobs through these organizations.
++
Economic imbalance cud have been corrected by opening schools in poor localities, setting up businesses in the interior, diversifying the economy and not murdering it by nationalizing industries and banks
++
In hindsight, nationalization was a mistake. But it was a popular one. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto won a heavy mandate in West Pakistan from a socialist platform. And he wasn`t even Punjabi.
Schools create employable people, but not (enough) employment. For that you need infrastructure projects, which is what Pakistan did during the 1960s and 70s. Organizations like PTCL, WAPDA, PIA, Railways, OGDC, SGNPL, SGSPL, ADBP and Steel Mills were created during this era to create employment for both white collar and blue collar workers. Many Mohajirs got jobs through these organizations.
#81 Posted by ballukhan on June 23, 2006 10:32:37 pm
``What has India gained from occupying Kashmir during the last 60 years? ``
Simple.....a free India rejects TNT.........
Simple.....a free India rejects TNT.........
#82 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on June 23, 2006 10:52:50 pm
#77 His Excellency {``And it taught us never to forget that we are Pakistanis and Muslims first... and Punjabis, Sindhis, Mohajirs and Baluchis later.``}
We can start by not forgetting to bring the 300,000 ``stranded`` Pakistani Muslims from BD. :)
#79, His Excellency {``Most Urdu-speaking refugees migrated to Karachi ``}
As pointed out by rf786 below in #78, the Urdu-speakers were not welcome in West Punjab. This fact has been detailed earlier on Chowk by another person who described how Mohajirs from Delhi and western UP were simply led by Punjabi authorities to waiting trains for Karachi. Only Punjabi-speaking East Punjabis were allowed to stay in Punjab en masse.
#77 His Excellency {``This is why we islamized our Army, fought the Russians alongside our Afghan brothers, built a nuclear bomb and shared power with MQM,``}
Sir, do you call the events of 1989, 1990, 1991 spearheaded by BB and NS ``sharing of power?`` I was a little kid then and to this day I am terrified with that ``power sharing.`` But, yes, it was A. Q. Khan, another Mohajir from Bhopal, who built the nuclear bomb for Pakistan. How many A. Q. Khans are living in misery in Bangladesh and how many will convert to Christianity or forced into prostitution to survive?
rf786 #78,
Thank you for correcting the chronology of events - some people forget how we got here.
#76 His Excellency {``Poor Biharis have waited 35 years already. They can wait another 10-15 years too. It is also in their interest to return when they`ll be welcomed with open arms.``}
Suppose you go to Bangladesh and give these people the good news that they can return to their country in 10-15 years, Inshallah. The reason for this additional delay is that Pakis are working diligently to give them a great economy with good jobs schools and healthcare when they arrive. Plus it will take that long just to train the marching band for the reception. I suppose Tahmed4, if he is still alive by then, will personally bestow garlands around the neck of each arriving Bihari. By that time there should be only 200,000 left. A man dying of thirst is not impressed by your claim that if he is patient for a few more weeks, he can drink from a golden cup that you have just sent an errand boy after.
rf786 #75, {``Incorrect, this is just another manufactured myth to protect Nehru`s hidden private life as a full blown faggot. Lord Mount-Bat- ten met Nehrujee when posted in Singapore, it was love at first sight for both, Lady Mountbatten was just the side dish used as a cover for these two closet gays. ``}
Now why don`t they teach this important stuff in schools? More importantly, if Jinnah had pictures on the two of them and didn`t use them for Pakistan`s benefits, I am going to be mad as hell. Just wait till I make my next trip to Karachi.
#74, His Excellency {``So in your opinion any Sindhi who opposes repatriation of Biharis is a terrorist??``}
No, but any Sindhi (or Punjabi for that matter) who opposes the repatriation of ``stranded`` Pakis in Bangladesh is not sincere, not compassionate, not a real Muslim, not a good Paki, and should be stripped and flooged in public with wet sawayyaaN until he learns how to be more humane, a better Muslim and a loyal Paki. When you flog Tahmed3, please make sure that the sawayyaaN are extra crispy.
#73, His Excellency {``I have a counter question: What has India gained from occupying Kashmir during the last 60 years? If suppressing Kashmiri Muslims makes India more secure and stable, then this policy should indeed be continued ad infinitum. But if this policy creates terrorism & communal strife (Gujrat, Babri mosque, Bombay riots) within India, then this policy must be revised in the larger interest of India.``}
Let me answer it from an Indian perspective. The legitimate ruler of the Princely State of Jammu and Kashmir, Maharaja Hari Singh, signed the instrument of accession to India. The rules of partition left this decision to each individual ruler with the provision that he take the wishes of his subjects into account. The Maharaja will say that he did exactly that.
Now, Kashmir is a very important part of India`s political existence. As the only Muslim majority state, it reinforces the concepts of diversity and democracy in India, and frankly, if successful, this approach nullifies the need for partition in 1947. A Muslim province, ruled by democratically-elected Muslim politicians, loyal to the Indian Union is a powerful message to the world and counters Pakistan`s existence to any impartial and logical mind.
The problems of Babri Masjid, Gujrat, and Bombay riots are not even remotely associated with Kashmir. However, they are definitely a legacy of the 1947 cruelty of partition. As I said in my post, bringing 5 million Kashmiri Muslims into Pakistan will still leave 115 million Muslims in India - not that anyone in Punjab or Sindh cares.
#72 His Excellency {``Indian Muslims will only suffer if Kashmir`s independence is achieved through the gun. A negotiated settlement, on the other hand, will satisfy the humanitarian problem of Kashmir, build a durable relationship between India and Pakistan, and harmonize the relationship between Hindus and Muslims.``}
I have a better suggestion. It`s called reunification. In one fell swoop we solve Kashmir, the Indus and tributaries` water problem (which after all is the main issue for Punjab and we should forget all this pro-Kashmiri Muslim crap, please), lack of democratic and secular institutions, and defense overspending.
We can start by not forgetting to bring the 300,000 ``stranded`` Pakistani Muslims from BD. :)
#79, His Excellency {``Most Urdu-speaking refugees migrated to Karachi ``}
As pointed out by rf786 below in #78, the Urdu-speakers were not welcome in West Punjab. This fact has been detailed earlier on Chowk by another person who described how Mohajirs from Delhi and western UP were simply led by Punjabi authorities to waiting trains for Karachi. Only Punjabi-speaking East Punjabis were allowed to stay in Punjab en masse.
#77 His Excellency {``This is why we islamized our Army, fought the Russians alongside our Afghan brothers, built a nuclear bomb and shared power with MQM,``}
Sir, do you call the events of 1989, 1990, 1991 spearheaded by BB and NS ``sharing of power?`` I was a little kid then and to this day I am terrified with that ``power sharing.`` But, yes, it was A. Q. Khan, another Mohajir from Bhopal, who built the nuclear bomb for Pakistan. How many A. Q. Khans are living in misery in Bangladesh and how many will convert to Christianity or forced into prostitution to survive?
rf786 #78,
Thank you for correcting the chronology of events - some people forget how we got here.
#76 His Excellency {``Poor Biharis have waited 35 years already. They can wait another 10-15 years too. It is also in their interest to return when they`ll be welcomed with open arms.``}
Suppose you go to Bangladesh and give these people the good news that they can return to their country in 10-15 years, Inshallah. The reason for this additional delay is that Pakis are working diligently to give them a great economy with good jobs schools and healthcare when they arrive. Plus it will take that long just to train the marching band for the reception. I suppose Tahmed4, if he is still alive by then, will personally bestow garlands around the neck of each arriving Bihari. By that time there should be only 200,000 left. A man dying of thirst is not impressed by your claim that if he is patient for a few more weeks, he can drink from a golden cup that you have just sent an errand boy after.
rf786 #75, {``Incorrect, this is just another manufactured myth to protect Nehru`s hidden private life as a full blown faggot. Lord Mount-Bat- ten met Nehrujee when posted in Singapore, it was love at first sight for both, Lady Mountbatten was just the side dish used as a cover for these two closet gays. ``}
Now why don`t they teach this important stuff in schools? More importantly, if Jinnah had pictures on the two of them and didn`t use them for Pakistan`s benefits, I am going to be mad as hell. Just wait till I make my next trip to Karachi.
#74, His Excellency {``So in your opinion any Sindhi who opposes repatriation of Biharis is a terrorist??``}
No, but any Sindhi (or Punjabi for that matter) who opposes the repatriation of ``stranded`` Pakis in Bangladesh is not sincere, not compassionate, not a real Muslim, not a good Paki, and should be stripped and flooged in public with wet sawayyaaN until he learns how to be more humane, a better Muslim and a loyal Paki. When you flog Tahmed3, please make sure that the sawayyaaN are extra crispy.
#73, His Excellency {``I have a counter question: What has India gained from occupying Kashmir during the last 60 years? If suppressing Kashmiri Muslims makes India more secure and stable, then this policy should indeed be continued ad infinitum. But if this policy creates terrorism & communal strife (Gujrat, Babri mosque, Bombay riots) within India, then this policy must be revised in the larger interest of India.``}
Let me answer it from an Indian perspective. The legitimate ruler of the Princely State of Jammu and Kashmir, Maharaja Hari Singh, signed the instrument of accession to India. The rules of partition left this decision to each individual ruler with the provision that he take the wishes of his subjects into account. The Maharaja will say that he did exactly that.
Now, Kashmir is a very important part of India`s political existence. As the only Muslim majority state, it reinforces the concepts of diversity and democracy in India, and frankly, if successful, this approach nullifies the need for partition in 1947. A Muslim province, ruled by democratically-elected Muslim politicians, loyal to the Indian Union is a powerful message to the world and counters Pakistan`s existence to any impartial and logical mind.
The problems of Babri Masjid, Gujrat, and Bombay riots are not even remotely associated with Kashmir. However, they are definitely a legacy of the 1947 cruelty of partition. As I said in my post, bringing 5 million Kashmiri Muslims into Pakistan will still leave 115 million Muslims in India - not that anyone in Punjab or Sindh cares.
#72 His Excellency {``Indian Muslims will only suffer if Kashmir`s independence is achieved through the gun. A negotiated settlement, on the other hand, will satisfy the humanitarian problem of Kashmir, build a durable relationship between India and Pakistan, and harmonize the relationship between Hindus and Muslims.``}
I have a better suggestion. It`s called reunification. In one fell swoop we solve Kashmir, the Indus and tributaries` water problem (which after all is the main issue for Punjab and we should forget all this pro-Kashmiri Muslim crap, please), lack of democratic and secular institutions, and defense overspending.
#83 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on June 23, 2006 11:15:36 pm
hshahbaz #71 {``Mr. Salim Chauhan, i really do hope that one day you would overcome your insecurities as a Mohajir who still feels he does not belong to the country ...I know that the mohajir`s trust has been badly hurt by the punjabis which has been a big mistake but we all have to rise above this mistrust in order to survive.
Shahbaz Sahib,
Very sincere and extremely wise words. You and Mantolives Bhai are two of the extremely few Pakistani Punjabis who have expressed such compassion and goodwill. That is all that would have been necessary to reassure the Bengalis in 1971, the Mohajirs in 1973, 1986, 1989, 1990, and 1991 and the Baluchis in the 70s and even now. You have to be a real minority to understand the meaning of insecurity. When your own soldiers occupy your own city to shoot your people, it is bound to make any loyal citizen rather insecure and less loyal. Decent Pakistani Punjabis have never realized the hatred their soldiers are spreading all over Pakistan at their expense.
Even here on Chowk, we are hearing hateful words and profanity hurled by several Pakistani Punjabis at Mohajirs and some find it humorous to ridicule the misfortunes of the ``stranded`` Pakistanis in Bangladesh. Somehow, they think that by calling them ``Biharis,`` the problem is diminished as one afflicting a lower race of people. While we are on the topic of oppression, it`s about time that Punjabis did the right thing and repeal those stupid laws that discriminate against Ahmadis. They are your own, hard-working, Punjabis who have always been loyal Pakistanis and yes, good Muslims. By the way, I reiterate that I am neither Bihari nor an Ahmedi - certain Pakistani Punjabis have found it convenient to label me as such, again to somehow demean my stance. They feel that if you stand up for an issue, then you must have a dog in the race.
Lastly, Pakistani Punja
Shahbaz Sahib,
Very sincere and extremely wise words. You and Mantolives Bhai are two of the extremely few Pakistani Punjabis who have expressed such compassion and goodwill. That is all that would have been necessary to reassure the Bengalis in 1971, the Mohajirs in 1973, 1986, 1989, 1990, and 1991 and the Baluchis in the 70s and even now. You have to be a real minority to understand the meaning of insecurity. When your own soldiers occupy your own city to shoot your people, it is bound to make any loyal citizen rather insecure and less loyal. Decent Pakistani Punjabis have never realized the hatred their soldiers are spreading all over Pakistan at their expense.
Even here on Chowk, we are hearing hateful words and profanity hurled by several Pakistani Punjabis at Mohajirs and some find it humorous to ridicule the misfortunes of the ``stranded`` Pakistanis in Bangladesh. Somehow, they think that by calling them ``Biharis,`` the problem is diminished as one afflicting a lower race of people. While we are on the topic of oppression, it`s about time that Punjabis did the right thing and repeal those stupid laws that discriminate against Ahmadis. They are your own, hard-working, Punjabis who have always been loyal Pakistanis and yes, good Muslims. By the way, I reiterate that I am neither Bihari nor an Ahmedi - certain Pakistani Punjabis have found it convenient to label me as such, again to somehow demean my stance. They feel that if you stand up for an issue, then you must have a dog in the race.
Lastly, Pakistani Punja