A Nation of Eunuchs

#187 by harish_hyd

...what would YOU infer if I said that the 57 Sunni scholars had died and yet there was peace between Shias and Sunnis? Please let me know if I missed something here...

Harish, yes you did miss something vital here. While I never said anything to the effect that Sunnis were blasted OR even LIKELY to have done so by Shias at Nishtar Park, and Hasan Turabi was blasted by Sunnis, YET you inferred it, because of the pre-conceived notion hammered into people`s minds through the media that Shia/Sunnis are mortal enemies. Nothing could be farther than the truth. Please note that if, Shias/Sunnis THEMSELVES believed that to be true, then streets would have been full of blood upon MERE sucpicion.

Hope you`re having a good trip. If you`re interested, we may continue this conversation on the Lebanon board because its more active and we may get valuable input from others.

#185 by zeemax

Now, where and when did I claim that it was the shias that did it. Please CPTHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yaar Zee, sorry I was traveling during the weekend so could not respond, thanks for all the titles.

But tell us what did you imply when you said that there wasn`t a Shia-Sunni riot after the Nishtar park bombing in which ``57 Sunni scholars`` died? Please tell me what would YOU infer infer if I said that the 57 Sunni scholars had died and yet there was peace between Shias and Sunnis? Please let me know if I missed something here, and if yes, what was that and then we can take this forward.

Re: #178 by teshah

Thanks. As long as there are people like you on the other side of the border, there`s hope. Someone needs to get rid of the Islamists, and come up with a compassionate version of Islam - in word and deed.

That will truly change the world. And save countless lives.

#184 by harish_hyd

Yaar Harish ... my hats off to you. You really are an expert, experienced chowkie ... expert at obfuscation, false dilemmas, side-stepping, derailing, circular reasoning, stupefying ... lol ..I can`t show a candle to you ... you`re a maestro at it like an accomplished ballerina!

Now, where and when did I claim that it was the shias that did it. Please CP THAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please ... please .... please ....

#183 by zeemax

This is what you wrote ... word by word:

Umm, so now you`re down to nitpicking. OK, so why don`t you prove that the Shias did it since that is where it all started off? The links I CP`d at least give enough indications to the broad direction as to who could have done it, but you haven`t provided even the tiniest bit of evidence to prove what you claimed. FYI, this is what you claimed in #163:

``Or, for that matter, why wasn`t there a single shia/sunni clash after 57 sunni scholars were killed in Nishtar Park?``

#182 by harish_hyd

Ama Yaar Harish Hyderabadi ... are there eyes or buttons in the vicinity of your nose? This is what you wrote ... word by word:

The police proved that the bomber was a Deobandi Sunni.

Now where is this stated in all that you C/P`d?

#181 by zeemax

Bhai ... where did you get this info? Link please ...... so I can pass it on to the judge .. with appropriate credits/patents of-course ......

Ama yaar Zee, there is nothing that a simple Google search cannot fish out, you should get off your derriere and try it out sometime. I didn`t get the link where I read the Sindh police chief say that it was the work of the Deobandis, but there are some news items that give enough indication that there was a Deobandi-Barelvi war going on (over the control of some mosque) and there were folks who knew what was coming. These are just 3 links I picked up from the search. There are many more, so if you have the time and inclination, do pass it on to the eminent judge.

Meanwhile, you are yet to give us even a whiff of evidence blaming Shias for the blasts.

From the Jang (http://www.jang.com.pk/important_events/karachi_blast_11apr06/english.htm)

``In the meeting, the sectarian conflict between the Barelvi and Deobandi factions of the Sunni sect was also discussed, something that bears strong relevance to the present situation.``

From the Daily Times (http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006 05 23 story_23-5-2006_pg3_3)

``In Karachi the wall-chalkings must have puzzled everyone equally, but they foreshadowed the massacre of Nishtar Park. It was Mufti Shakir’s (and his backers’) revenge for his ouster from Bara in the face of an “alien” like Pir Saif ur Rehman. Mufti Shakir had killed earlier in Hangu, but he was at least “ours”.

``Altaf Hussain of MQM referred to Hangu in his first statement on the Nishtar Park bombing. The truth is that Deobandis target three communities: Qadianis, Shias and Barelvis. Ahle Hadith lend a hand in the anti-Barelvi jihad. Sunni Tehreek, which has been decimated, tried to get the Barelvi mosques back from the Deobandi-Ahle Hadith combine put together by the ISI. Since the recovery was outside the pale of law and often violent, it gave rise to the war we are seeing now.``

From the Amnesty International (http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA330102006?open&of=ENG-366)

``The meeting in Nishtar Park consisted of members of the moderate Sunni Muslim group, the Jamaat-e-Ahle Sunnat. This group belongs to the Barelvi sect of Sunni Muslims which venerates Sufis, embraces mysticism and celebrates religious events with fervour. It is opposed by the Deobandi Sunni group which abhors mysticism, considers Barelvis and Shia Muslims as heretical and favours a very strict interpretation of Islam. Historically there has been little conflict between Shia groups and members of the Barelvi group, with most violence reported to take place between members of the Shia and the Deobandi groups.``

#180 by harish_hyd

...The police proved that the bomber was a Deobandi Sunni....

Abey Yaar... Aaaj konsi chiRi tikai hey? Filter to kar leynee thee ......

Boy, a whole commission under the most eminent judge of the Sind High court is not only splitting hairs but pulling their own hairs as well as those of witnesses etc. since a month now trying to find out who, if anyone in person at the scene, actually killed all those people. And you pop out and tell me the police has already got all that figured out ... proven ... slam dunk ... case finished .... kaput ... sheesh ... sunnis/barelvis ... Lol ..... ROTFLMFAO.

Bhai ... where did you get this info? Link please ...... so I can pass it on to the judge .. with appropriate credits/patents of-course ......

#172 by zeemax

So there were 57 casualties including 9 scholars. How does that change anything? Do you mean to argue that 9 scholars blown up plus 48 devotees was not enough to cause a shia/sunni riot?

Yaar Zee, what are you smoking? Looks like the stuff is having a debilitating effect on you. The police proved that the bomber was a Deobandi Sunni. The folks congregated in Nishtar park were also Sunnis (Barelvis). Only someone high on something potent would expect a Sunni-Shia riot there. Comprehension problems? Obvious oversight? Straw-clutching? Or is it all three?

Man ... I`ve seen straw-clutching but never to this absurd extent ... and that too on an obvious oversight.

I like the words. Too bad they apply only to you.

No comment on the vid, or cat got your tongue seeing those IEDs?

Love to jump the gun, don`t you? Didn`t have the time to go through the video, but will respond when I see it.

zeemax #176 I have responded to your post on the board titled ``Escalation of Hostilities in the Middle East``, given that that board is more relevant to what we are discussing. Regards.

126 - Krishna_abcd

Thank you dear Krishna you have more than made up for your misunderstanding.

My point in fact was that the so called democracy which is working well in the West has proved to be disastrous for the Indian sub-continent wherein the lack of national homogeneity due to communal and ethnic disharmony and ignorance of the masses was exploited by the self seeking unscrupulous politicians to rack havoc on the people resulting in their carnage; first, as an aftermath of the movement for partition of India in 1947 and then on the eve of breaking up of Pakistan in 1971. That carnage is still going on sporadically all over the sub-continent, supplemented now with terrorism and wars among the ‘States of Hindustan’, some of whom now possess WMD. From Nehru to Bal Thaakre and from Jinnah to LeT we are going down and down due to this democracy turned into mob or terror-cracy.

zeemax:
thanks for #152.
I have diametrically opposite view of america than you. I dont have the capacity to articulate in a proper way - as in ``what is america?`` is just an infinitely huge subject. My own view nonetheless is the result of my own deeply personal relationship with this place.

best.

#175 by tahmed32

In (a), recognition of Israel is not a problem. Even Hamas is prepared to do that and it has also been the cornerstone of each peace plan so far. The problem is what exactly would constitute the palestinian state. The acceptance of Gaza/West Bank as territories that would become the sovereign Palestine state has been ruled out by Israel because that would mean going back to the 1967 borders, and no buffer zones for Israel. So in the absence of any agreement on (a), the rest would become redundant. Then you have missed the right of return.

The stumbling blocks are basically three on which neither side is willing to compromise. (1) 1967 borders (2) East Jerusalem and (3) Right of Return.

I think the wounds on both side are plentiful and deep, there is great distrust, and no solution can be found in the short-term. To begin any process however, the cessation of hostilities, restoration of human rights and small but significant confidence building measures are essential. For the moment Israel is not in favour of doing that and only carries a big stick. Only the US could bring Israel around in this direction.

zeemax: you write Anyway, let`s propose solutions to the Palestine isue, shall we?

Great. Now we are getting somewhere.

There are many solutions to this issue, depending on who decides to take the first step. Here are some options that come to my mind, depending on who takes action, listed in order of preference.

1. Palestinians: a. Abbas prepares ``Peace Proposal`` which includes recognition of Israel, includes acceptance Gaza/West Bank as territories that would become the sovereign Palestine state, includes zero-tolerance policy for those seeking violence. b. Abbas runs of this platform in next elections (or has referendum, if Hamas agrees). c. ``Peace Proposal`` gets landslide support from Palestinian voters. d. Abbas then makes offer to Israelis. e. Israelis accept this offer.

a. is easy, b. is possible, c. requires educating of those Palestinians who voted for Hamas in last elections on the merits of this. d. is then simple and e. is easy since most of this is close to Sharon`s unilateral withdrawal plan anyway.

Realistically speaking - c. is the stumbling block. Muslim countries could help in c. by cooling their rhetoric .

Israelis Basically continue their path of unilateral action. Dispute keeps simmering for decades.

The latter is already happening. Not a solution, but it basically maintains the status quo indefinitely. Since the hundred or so nukes the Israelis posses ensure that no Arab nation (or Iran) will dare attack them - Ahmedinijad`s rhetoric notwithstanding.

what do you think? Any other possibilities?

Hey zeemax,

I think you should take a break and read what you have been posting on Chowk for a while.

You have made the following assertions:

1) Might is right - there is no right or wrong in reality.

2) The end justifies the means - killing innocent people is okay as long as it is done to achieve some ulterior goal.

and then you say -

[What I do not have regard for is the state of USA. In fact I do not even consider USA as part of the glorious western civilization. It is a civilization of outcasts and brigands and crooks. And yes, barbarians. While Europe forsake it`s barbarian past and embraced knowledge and learning and egalitarianism; and wealth was a distant priority which came anyway; USA culture evolved with the same Europeans turning back on their values acquired during renaissance in a new and hostile land, and turning into barbarians once again in escaping insecurity through acquisition, plunder and the grab-what-you-can-before-it`s-gone culture in a blind run for money, at all costs. Their cost as well as anyone outside their borders. So it continues till this day.

I will say quite honestly that I have been disillusioned with USA. I think they`re just crap and not citizens of the world. They have their own world, as long as it lasts. Muslims are better because they understand this phenomenon and fighting for the restatement of the world as an equal place for all colours, sizes and shapes. They may be the bad guys now, but they will eventually succeed. Just because they are right. ]


So you don`t like the USA because is a BAD and UNETHICAL country, unlike Europe. And Muslims are BETTER and fighting for more EQUALITY. And therefore will win.



You are all over the map, my friend. Take a break, decide what your philosophy is, then come back to Chowk and start posting again.

#169 by tahmed32

I think I clarified ``not the Dubai Palestenian but a refugee-camp type Palestenian``. But you wouldn`t have known one. The once you listed are the safely ensconced ones.

Several Palestinian fighters were my batch-mates in Uni, and one was my room-mate for two years. All of them were from refugee camps in Lebanon/Jordan on aid scholarships and all of them were part-time fighters during any study breaks. They would come back and tell us stories. In one summer, my room-mate, Faris went and didn`t come back. The ones who returned told me he had been killed.

Anyway, let`s propose solutions to the Palestine isue, shall we? You first ...