Violence Against Women

Re: # 26

Let me put my point in another way: while it is important to discuss the work and achievement of Pakistani, Muslim and South Asian women on an ongoing basis, it is not enough. On one hand, highlighting the efforts of a woman or an organization educates the readership here of what this acting party is achieving. On the other hand, these kinds of discussions effect a passive engagement that seems to have very little impact on the lives of the readership.

It is easy to talk about women on a very abstract level. What I am proposing here is far more concrete that will show us how we transform this particular cyber community. Chowk Staff, I am giving you an idea, yet another one, it would serve your website to use it:

My proposal is that we invite formally groups of South Asian/Pakistani/Indian/Bangladeshi/Sri Lankan/Bhutani/Afghani and/or Muslim/Christian/Hindu/Parsi/Jain/ Jewish undergraduates women students and ask them to write about their experiences as students, workers, artists, intellectuals, organizers, representatives, and members of their various communities. I can guarantee that their input would radically change the discourse on this website. In addition, their discourses would (hopefully) acheive more tangible, scholarly and humane engagement with these issues than what chowk currently represents.

My point is lets see the practice in action. Can chowk transform itself before it claims to transform society?

However, in order to do this, there would have to be a zero tolerance policy on gendered harrassment.

#24

i think i have participated here long enough here, and in the ``real`` world to know what happens when a man or a woman`s perspective is not congruent with mine or yours, or with the desi muslim or any other religion female students. i have talked about that point quite a bit here at chowk which relates to why i`ve stayed away from here from time to time, but what i was trying to say in terms of this article, is that there are achievements by pakistani women in pakistan (i am talking about in pakistan) that we don`t get to hear enough about, other than by beena and bina, and that is work there in practice that i would like to know more about as well. it is going to come up against opposition, as it always does, but i would like to see our women (and men) writers based in pakistan to shed some light on that as well, be it an exercise in theory or practice.



#25

HP, it`s not that i object to domestic work, more than a few of us do that in our daily lives, my mother did it to a greater or lesser extent after her marriage. the reason i keep bringing that particular phrase up is because when someone writes, ``women are encouraged to perform domestic duties. . .`` there is an implication that they are not encouraged to go beyond that. even if this article is time-specific, or there is something very wrong because in this specificity, quite a few of the generalized ``women`` have been encouraged to go beyond that in spite of the opposition from certain sections of the community.

***

i would be the last one in the world to say that we should not focus on violence against women, or talk about where we are in terms of that or the plight of women. all i was trying to say was that i want to read about women who are doing something about it as well, women who have surmounted the obstacles and opposition, women like nafis sadik, who is focusing on women not just locally, but globally as well. laila kazmi has a write-up of her at http://www.jazbah.org/nafis.php

#18 by saminasha2

First, those were not my posts. I certainly love to abuse some people on UP and would continue to that as I think they are serial abusers and that is the only language they understand.

You are not a community advocate here and if you do want to associate with that group then go ahead and abuse me. I would rather take this up on UP though. Second, I don’t consider personal abuse matters more than the racial, ethnic and religion abuse that take place here. Personal abuses are just personal but community abuse is some thing I take exception too. Anyone doing that would continue to hear from me.

Since you have chosen to attack me personally, I would remind you that the only reason you are back on this site is to rag on Salim. I have not seen any worthwhile comment from you on this site and the only thing you post on UP always refers to Salim. I think you need to get over this obsession. This is my last post here on this and if you wanna continue to discuss this, look me up on UP.

#19 by ana
Ana,
“zara sochiye tau, there really is some truth to the personal being the political. this whole idea of not being ``critical`` of the government in order not to lose goodwill makes no sense really unless you`re a zombie, or automaton. . . the point is how to be critical and questioning in a manner that will not completely alienate you from people (something most chowk interactors have to learn as well) or the system, because one has to work not just without but within a system in order for it to change.”

Exactly!
Ana, my point is not that you don’t criticize the state or the government for not doing enough as you do need to build pressure on the state itself to change things around. In the US it is called lobbying. Despite the lobbying efforts, groups don’t give up the option of agitation and use it when they feel it to be the right move. Just study many groups here from NARAL to NRA and many more that work with the political system and gain support from the influential government functionaries.

We may agree that lobbying in Pakistan is different than in the US but I showed a good example of the HRC in Pakistan. They take up the government on every issue still they work with them and bring the point home consistently. In fact, the HRC in Pakistan has brought more cases of abuse to women in Pakistan than any women rights group and that is shame for all the so called feminist that would just regurgitate oft repeated clichés to get some name recognition as it is far more easier to accuse the government and religion than actually understanding the problem and look for ways to resolve them.

On other note on your post, I don’t consider domestic help type of work as demeaning to women or anyone else. They are doing a job and must be respected for that. But we cannot just overcome what has been practiced in our societies for centuries. The change in attitude takes a long time as it is ingrained in the minds of people. It has nothing to do with the government and a separate but coordinated effort is required for people to understand that.

I got to run now and I will take up some other points you raised in my next post.

Re: # 19

Interestingly enough, there are some very intelligent undergrad desi muslim students who work, study and negotiate their family`s expectations with their own. What would happen if THEY interacted here? Why have so many young women chosen not to?

Its one thing to ``write about`` women who are active in their lives-its quite another to respect their perspectives esp. when they are not congruent with yours. To me, this is another exercise in theory and not practice.

Re: # 20

I forgot to add! In USA companies there is great deal of emphasis on merits. But also punishment for failure and inefficiency. That is what happened to Carly Florina who was brought as CEO to Hewlett Packard- one of world`s the leading electronics and instrumentation companies. She couldnot deliver the goods. So she was simply fired. ( Of course there was a hefty golden parachute benefits of course!)

Same thing could happen to Indra Nooyi too. So just keep watching fellows!

Kamath

Re: # 20

``...Pepsi’s then CEO, Wayne Calloway, wooed Nooyi, according to BusinessWeek, by saying, ``Jack Welch the best CEO I know, and GE is probably the finest company. But I have a need for someone like you, and I would make PepsiCo a special place for you.’’ ...

Well. This one exceptional event does not reflect the overall status Indian of women or women of Indian origin abroad as all nice and goody goody. For every Indra Nooyi, there are million sad cases of women in India. They have to go long long way to better their lots.

Education and economic independence and changed social attitudes are some of the important keys to future success.

Kamath

Are there any articles on women in India? They may be relatively better in India but oppression is there in India as well. In middle-class, not much but in villages and poor, a lot. Among Muslims it`s as usual, though there are bright patches.

Since someone mentioned Indra Nooyi, here is an article from dnaindia.com that talks about her. She comes from the tamil brahmin community who have had their fair share of high achieving women (and men).

---

Indra K Nooyi spurned GE`s Jack Welch, went for fizz, won
Nandini Lakshman
Monday, August 14, 2006 23:22 IST

MUMBAI: At 50, Chennai born Indra Krishnamurthy Nooyi has shattered the ultimate glass ceiling, by moving into the corner room at PepsiCo Inc headquarters in the US.

But everyone knew that the freshly anointed chief executive officer of Pepsi was always different.

Who else would thwart an offer from the legendary corporate chieftain, General Electric’s Jack Welch in 1994, to change the fizz at Pepsi?

Pepsi’s then CEO, Wayne Calloway, wooed Nooyi, according to BusinessWeek, by saying, ``Jack Welch the best CEO I know, and GE is probably the finest company. But I have a need for someone like you, and I would make PepsiCo a special place for you.’’

V J Philip, former principal of the Madras Christian College, where Nooyi studied chemistry and physics 30 years ago, remembers Indra as “always a go-getter who had the capacity to rally around people and get them excited”.

He remembers how when a tough test paper was set up, Nooyi, who was then in the first year, got her class to solve it.

She then barged into the lecturer’s room to show him why everybody had performed badly.

Audacious?

“Far from it, we had a re-test,” says Philip, who was one of her chemistry lecturers.

In fact, standing up for what she believed in is a quality that Nooyi inherited from her mother. Along with sister Chandrika, who went on to work at the Citibank, the World Bank, the New York University’s Stern School of Business and then set up Tandon Associates, the Krishnamurthy girls were honed in on the art of leadership at a very young age.

People in Chennai say that as part of a daily post-prandial drill at home, the girls were asked by their mother to deliver a speech on what they wanted to be when they grew up. The most innovative was rewarded with a chocolate. “It didn’t matter what they said, but it instilled in them a sense of pride and the urge to dream big and chase that dream. It made them achievers,” says a family friend.

A people person, Nooyi’s negotiating skills were obvious from day one. Along with sister Chandrika — who was a singer — the Krishnamurthy girls were regulars in the cultural and social activities during their college days in the early ‘70s. Running around for ads for the college magazine, she would convince tight-fisted company managing directors to part with ads.

“She used her logical power to advantage,” says her college friend.

“Behind my cool logic lies a very emotional person,” Nooyi told an American business magazine six years ago. Today, as the highest-ranking India-born woman in corporate America, Nooyi has a track record of delivering time and again in PepsiCo’s global sweepstakes.

Working closely with CEO Roger Enrico, she was at the forefront of many of Pepsi’s business decisions, be it hiving its food chains, acquiring Tropicana, the merger with Quaker Foods, and taking the Pepsi Cola bottling group public. “The energy and time she puts in are incredible,” Enrico once said.

That’s why, like most workaholics, the office, remarked Nooyi once, is like her extended family. Her younger daughter often drops by, even when she isn’t in. Nooyi has said that she comes in to play Nintendo or do her homework or just chat up the big bosses. “There is always somebody or the other to help out,” she said.

While such help is welcome where her family is concerned, Nooyi has had a solo march up the corporate ladder. After a post graduation at Indian Institute of Management, Calcutta, she worked at Mettur Beardsell and then Johnson & Johnson in Chennai, as product manager for Stayfree sanitary napkins.

“That was a fascinating experience and I learned a lot,” she said, hawking personal protection products in a country where awareness levels were zilch.

And when she applied “on a whim and got” a management seat at Yale, the penniless Nooyi said, “she came as an intelligent person and left an educated person”.

Being a “poor Indian student”, most of the summer jobs were done in a sari. Once, she even went for an interview in a cheap $50 business suit and orange snowboots like “the ultimate country bumpkin”.

When a career counsellor advised Nooyi to wear what she was comfortable in, the sari became her trademark.

The attire, however, was no impediment to her first major job in corporate strategy at Boston Consulting Group.

Then over the next decade until the mid ‘90s, other senior management positions followed, first at Motorola and then Asea Brown Boveri.

Even today, Nooyi wears a sari to most of Pepsi’s functions. “Never hide what makes you,” she once said.

And last year, when she addressed students at Columbia University, her speech elicited brickbats for its supposedly “anti-US stance”.

Both Nooyi and the university were forced to make damage control statements about how it was misinterpreted, and how “she loves America dearly”.

But there are many who point out to the timing of the announcement.

“Pepsi is one of the largest funders of the US government. When something like this happens, it could be either co-incidence or an outcome of lobbying,” Miguel Loureiro, lecturer in developmental studies in a Pakistan university, told DNA Money.

He points out how only two days ago, the US government had reacted to the Coke-Pepsi controversy over the use of pesticides, by saying that a ban on the two players would affect trade.

“And now an Indian heads Pepsi,” he adds.

To be fair to Nooyi, her appointment to the Pepsi pinnacle has not come as a surprise. The Pepsi bosses had always singled her out for accolades. That’s not coincidence.

---

reading some of the comments here, i find that they echo some of the discomfort and disappointment i felt in initially reading this article, even though i was encouraging to the writer (HP, when you write of ``feminist`` responses on this topic, i think you were referring to 2 only before you got here no?)

i can see where one would be disappointed to read this all the time on chowk. violence against women continues not just in pakistan, but in other countries as well. i don`t think that there is anything wrong with writing on this topic though, or that one should not write about it, but when we speak of women in pakistan being encouraged to perform domestic duties, who are we talking about? not all the women in pakistan i grew up around. (my mother had a successful career before she married my father) this article makes no real separation between those in the urban areas and those in the rural. but times do keep a-changing for women in pakistan.

when i read this article the first time, i felt as if we were talking about afghanistan during the taliban regime. the picture of women is so bleak here, and it has been the case for more than a few women. additionally, we have a law from the time of the surma-eyed dictator that has still been on the books, and leaders following have never quite been able to remove that.

but women have made progress in pakistan in spite of that, and we need to have a balance here on chowk in terms of what women are doing in pakistan. write about the women, both in rural and urban pakistan who are making a difference, as well. i read this, and i know that women in pakistan are not as powerless as this article suggests, but let`s face it, the government right now, is in league with those who would rather the hudood ordinance stay in place, and who knows how long that will last, and how it will change, and what does that say about the government in terms of ``women`s issues``?

and HP, when you write about separating politics or political views from women`s issues, zara sochiye tau, there really is some truth to the personal being the political. this whole idea of not being ``critical`` of the government in order not to lose goodwill makes no sense really unless you`re a zombie, or automaton. . . the point is how to be critical and questioning in a manner that will not completely alienate you from people (something most chowk interactors have to learn as well) or the system, because one has to work not just without but within a system in order for it to change.

Re: # 14

Lets talk about what happens when certain principles are violated here:

1. As you pointed out, very few women interact on FP; would it be the general atmopshere in which any female interactor disagreeing with interactors like chuhan are called ``prostitutes``, and are compulsively referred to in sexually harrassing terms?

2. How about posts on FP that refer to explicit male behavior towards the bodies of sisters, daughters, mothers WITHOUT REPERCUSSION? (see: your posts as reposted by Subroto as evidence). Is the readership-mostly male and complacent-not aware of this cause and effect dynamic; most women will not interact in places they are disrespected.

3. Forget the chowk staff for a moment-what about the male readers on this site? Here is what interactors unhappy with chowk.com`s laissez faire attitude towards stricter regulations are told:

a. it`s just a website

b. it`s not your website

c. any degreed woman who would dare challenge even the least educated, most disgusting and ignorant among us (chuhan) deserves to be harrassed

d. women who disagree with whichever interactor/staff member that harrasses/ignores the harrasser doesnt belong on chowk

e. women in general don`t really belong on chowk, unless they get to point out how silly they are or how oppressed they are so that the male interactors who support their right to make and/or read derogatory comments about women under ``free speech`` get to make the occasional sympathetic noises, but generally do nothing when it comes to this website

f. is there a problem? only self serving, attention hungry feminists see problems (nevermind how well they are doing in their fields outside of chowk, inside chowk, they are just whining, nagging, incompetant aunties and prostitutes)

g. ignore it!



I hate to agree with Urstruly, but I would never ask my desi female students, friends, or relatives to visit this website, simply because to interact here is ultimately an humilating experience. Those of us who were here before it was acceptable for ``Muslim`` male chowk to post info about female interactors or insult them by calling them prostitutes or question who fathered their children used to believe we had a right to be here. But I`m beg. to believe that the writer of this piece is right-insecure desi men (and women) don`t care about women or their rights in any substantial way. Too many insecure desi men believe that their religion has given them the right-despite how jahil and self serving their behavior and world view is-to lord it over all women and their male feminist peers. On this particular point, I agree with the author.

nasah #13 What you write basically sums up the situation in Pakistan under ``Enlightened Moderate`` Musharaff regime: with a PM like that and a rapist-protecting President like Musharraf you have to go a long way -- bibi

Khoda mufooz rukhkhay ghum ko aisay ghumgusaaroN se.....

The problem again should be taken at its root...

The problem with Pakistan is , in every field, unconstitutional governance... and NOTHING else.

Pakistan`s constitution provides very emphatically for women`s empowerment and equality and it is a known fact that as long as the constitution was allowed to operate freely women were progressing in Pakistan... Just see the periods between 1947-1958, 1971-1977 and 1988-1999 ... this is when the women`s movements have been the strongest... 1947-1958 saw superb women`s activism ... as it was the women who had proved to be the most successful of all agitators in the Pakistan movement (the ML civil disobedience movement in Punjab in 1947 was led and fought by women) ... you read newspapers and journals frm that period right after indpendence and you see that the issue of women`s role in politics and society as a nation-builder was emphasised ... Raana Liaqat Ali, Jahanara Shahnawaz, Salma Tassadaq, Shaista Ikramullah and countless other women leaders fought together ona one point agenda... women`s liberation and they were successful in getting the Family laws amended and succeeded in restricting polygamy greatly...

Similarly 1971-1977 also marked tremendous progress for women ... most professional women, businesswomen, doctors, engineers on high positions today were part of the great PPP push for women`s development in the 1971-1977 period.... and the NGOs we see today proliferated in 1988-1999 period ... especially from 1988-1990 and 1993-1996...

Give Pakistan`s constitution in whatever mangled form it is now 30 years of breathing space and all ills will solve themselves... I am sure of it.

I just read a few paras and was deeply disappointed. Despite 9 years of Chowk`s existence, the kind of articles that are written on the plight women today are no different from those of the yester years. The world has changed a lot in the past decade. Many women have grown up, made significant progress in life, decided to run their own businesses, and are the leaders in the corporate world. Why are we indifferent to that picture? I did not see a single article/write-up on Pepsi`s Indira N. I understand all major publications are repeating the same 2-3 paras about her. The world needs to get a different picture of a South Asian Woman. Let`s put it this way - It`s simply embarassing and disturbing to read about our women dedicating their lives to their families, religion, culture and traditions.

Providing a writer an opportunity to share his or her thoughts is one thing, but promoting age old ideas and notions again and again to show sympathy to the cause of women is boring. The latter also defeats the purpose of having an ezine where you are able to read ``illuminating`` thought process.

This has now become a sort of tradition on chowk. Every month or so we see an article that talks about women’s rights in Pakistan and the article is followed up by obligatory “wah wah” posts by known feminist on this site (female numbers feminist or not, are declining fast on this site) Then we would have a few hangers on who would blame Islam on every ill of the society and finally someone would talk abt how his mother had to follow some rituals that he hopes his grand daughter would not have to follow. In between, Hamid would praise some unintelligent poster without even bothering to read the post. (btw, I think Hamidm reads every word of Asadi post for his breakfast, lunch and dinner breaks to learn something new abt the power elite before the day is over.)

Before I go into the other aspects of the article, let me reproduce the obligatory ending of all the feminists articles.
Here is how it goes, “the need of the hour is to redress the current plight of women, and that is not possible without their access to justice.”

This need of the hour entails many things and in this article the emphasis is on JUSTICE. It is like saying that since all men in Pakistan already have ACCESS TO JUSTICE, now women should have it too.

Since enlightening moderation is the buzz word nowadays, all the articles are sprinkled with references to “Enlightened Moderation”. And then another necessary ingredient to make the article a success is a reference to the Quran which claims that “Man and woman ``were created of a single soul,``. Finally, an honorable mention of cruel feudal customs like honor killing and how women carry the burden of keeping the society pious by covering themselves head to toe in raishmi ghalaf or lihaf or pillow covers. (Pillow covers are good as they end up showing all the contours of the pillow hidden there.)

Are women’s rights a problem in Pakistan alone? Is this a problem for Muslim women alone? Why Pakistani feminists are obsessed with the idea that if a few laws are changed everything would be hanky dory for women in Pakistan?

Let us just look at the women rights situation in the countries west of Pakistan. Are things any better? I think they are worse. Now I am not going to bring in the most modern country on the East as women there have more rights than the women in the western world and that country is so perfect that child marriages, dowry, and stove burning do not happen there. So I will just hop to other countries. Let us see what right Chinese women have? For crying out loud, that country has no civil rights for the whole population what to talk of women alone. Try Myanmar, Thailand, Vietnam, and countries in between. Even Japan is struggling with women rights issues and they don’t follow Islam or nobody talks “Enlightened Moderation” in those countries at all.

The first failure of Women rights activists from Pakistan is that they cannot distinguish between the political demands and the women rights. The minute they start criticizing the government, they start losing whatever little goodwill there is in some government quarters for the women. Why can’t the activists keep their political views separated from the women’s issues?

Why they always have to quote some silly little aiat or surah from the Quran to support their demands? The minute you do that you give power back to the mullah because the society including the women accepts the mullah to be the interpreter of the religion.

The women’s rights struggle should be based on universal principals and not on fighting religions and speaking out against the political authorities. Follow the HRC policies, they are extremely active, but they stay away from becoming political partisan despite often coming out against the current government.

This post is already too long…I will come back to this later…Generally, most of the feminists from Pakistan are looking for some cheap publicity and name recognition thru some newspaper articles. I seriously doubt that they even have a clue about what women`s rights are.

``The Quran in particular is addressed to all Muslims, and for the most part it does not differentiate between male and female. Man and woman, it says, ``were created of a single soul,`` and are moral equals in the sight of God``(emma A)

bibi -- your prayers for Quran and Sunnah laws for the emancipation of women in Pakistan -- have been answered -- not by God -- but by your Western educated Prime Minister -- who has just emancipated your gender from the violence and degradation of those medieval woman-tormenting gender-degrading, psychologically-debilitating, criminally assaulting -- Islamic Hudood laws!

Here is what he has to say how he is going to emancipate you:

``Women Protection Bill to be in accordance with injunctions of Quran, Sunnah: PM

ISLAMABAD: Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz said Saturday that the Women Protection Bill will be in accordance with the injunctions of the Quran and Sunnah for the protection of (Pakistani) women.....``

this is called the Homeopathic Treatment of the ailment -- give the same poison that caused the disease to the dying patient and he or she will sit up and be cured of the disease for ever........as Ghalib would say: ``agar aur jeetay ruhtay vohee intazaar hotaa``.......

with a PM like that and a rapist-protecting President like Musharraf you have to go a long way -- bibi

Khoda mufooz rukhkhay ghum ko aisay ghumgusaaroN se.....

If you take a word ``wo man`` its can complete with ``man`` Right.
Yesterday I was the surfing channels on TV for an hour I just found women, from Newscaster, fashion designer, Doctors, engineers students and so on .. whom are from kuwait Bharin, Qatar,Iraq,Iran,Bangadesh, Lebnon, Pakistan and of course India.

But Still some of them always thinks like poor country singer who is always broken hearted and cry about his poor life.

Hi Gals C’mon! Please stop blaming the Culture, Taboos and Government. ,You don’t chose your family but you chose your friends . If you always think and act like ``Becharee`` / “Maskeen” or broke Saudi women, what you think! That will change the world no way !

Your are making yourself desperate, Let take a example of women in India, Pakistan even in America they also have more issues then yours but it s not the end of the world.

We American proclaim that Women suffer in Asia. Did you every seen a Women Chief of the State in America. Of course your answer is No, But you know Indra Gandi, Benazir butto, Khalda Zia, Hasina Wajid, Gloria, and new women leader of Germany and Latin America and lots.

What you think the Henry Clinton or Candy Rice will be the president of USA?
No way !

Enjoy your life! Life is fulfill with lot of Fun, Entertainment and Love.

Yes I know the feeling of the girls and women in Pakistani society form every single Schooling, Transportation, Office, Susral and more. ( note I am not a Gay by the way)

But think Positive and Think global!

Later
Ahad