Violence Against Women

Shaukat Aziz — Former Executive Vice President & Head of Global Private Banking Division of Citibank, former Prime Minister of Pakistan

Re: # 7
(i) Islam was initially equitable for women in economic sense AS LONG AS each woman resigned herself to the domain of the man in charge at the moment of her life. That was a victory of sorts in the Seventh Century AD
...
Ans: And Muhammed was married to lady at her 40s with three experience of earlier marriages...nice example of women suppression in pre-islamic arab...

Re: # 27
Saima...

My proposal is that we invite formally groups of South Asian/Pakistani/Indian/Bangladeshi/Sri Lankan/Bhutani/Afghani and/or Muslim/Christian/Hindu/Parsi/Jain/ Jewish undergraduates women students and ask them to write about their experiences as students, workers,

Ans: This is typical moslem problem, which you guys inherited with introduction of barbarism/Islam.
Go to any College/University in India...Situation is different....Bangalore....

Re: # 32
Ahmed madani...
Strange conclusions...If a drink, which is supposed to nourish and heal body causes health trouble, what the health ministry should do? You Pakis are animals, so you don not need to perform puja or get concerned about health issue...
Indra Nooyi is not entering politics and winning an election in India is not that easy. You need to be smart enough to convince people...

Re: # 38
To Teshah...

They say there is a woman behind every successful man. The reverse is also true. Take the case of Mukhtaran Mai. It is the alleged rape of her by Mastoies that made her so rich ...
Ans: Yeh...the rapist may be behind as well as above the wretched lady and switched to couple of other postions to ensure her success....Nice logic!!!!Keep it up you Pakis...

Emma dear

I am at a loss to understand what this woman empowerment means. They say there is a woman behind every successful man. The reverse is also true. Take the case of Mukhtaran Mai. It is the alleged rape of her by Mastoies that made her so rich and powerful that she became a challenge even to the all-powerful general Musharraf. Can a man wish such an easy way to power and glory. So man and woman can be a mutual source of power for each other. It is only the woman who sometimes become a `churel`, seeking power for herself to humiliate the opposite sex.

Re: # 36

Here`s where critical reading and thinking skills are necessary, nade. The issues being brought up in the responses are connected to the issues being discussed in the article. Once you put your mind to it, I`m sure you can connect the dots. :)

Well.......the article is as good and informative as it should or possibly might be, but the thing i noticed on part of interaction is that many people have made it a personal war of ideas or views rather than just commenting on the published stuff. a lot of Zara, Saminasha episode and the reactions of HP have made this page a chowk of a slum where triffles are more important than the intellectual issues.
anyway.....write more Emma, after reading a lot.
good luck.

Re: # 34

Zahra,

Yes, that is a start. :) From your lips to chowk`s ears....

Re: # 31

Samina

[How are you?]

Theek Hoon :)

Good points. Your last para gave me some food for thought. What should Chowk do to attract ``that`` audience? Send out an invite to those intelligent women or invite them to a special gathering where only the handsome creation of God is invited to entice the women into writing something moving and stirring(all positive) .... Do you think that will work?

#30 - Come to think of it, the fact that a 6-year old cute little girl`s case is getting so much publicity all over the world, tells us a lot. Was there any need to reopen an old case? Ideally, we would like to see fairness in every aspect of life. I am not sure if that exists in its perfect form, therefore I do not want to present the west as the epitome of perfection. But I do want to appreciate the obvious that is alien to various other parts of the world.

The root cause of the perpetual pessimism in South Asian culture is the lack of a fair legal system. I do not believe that it has anything to do with democracy or no democracy. Institutions should be able to survive and function regardless of the garb they decided to wear. Coming from a project based thought process, I would like to see a decent closure to the prevalent issues that many of our women have been repeatedly writing about. Is there any closure to any women related issues in Pakistan? Will there ever be any fair and decent closure? The weird timelines are the cause of unnecessary anxiety and unspoken stress among our women.

India govt has banned american company pepsi and cocacola due to bad chemicals, Indians are strange people, they kicked cocakola and IBM while they worship animals. Now new woman CEO of Pepsi will be tested if she can reverse decision. This person is extraordinary and my prediction is one day she will be invited to become Prime minister of India just as Our PM ,former CEO of City bank was invited to become PM.

Re: # 30

Zahra,

How are you?

I agree with your point that sloppy reading tends to view research/composition text through a ``problem`` framework particularly around issues of gender and identity. In other words, female writers/readers are marginalized through X system. Although the identification of factors, policies and methodologies that do marginalize female writers/readers are one important step, the various ways in which the same writers and readers negotiate these obstacles is profoundly instructive. In my discussions with young Muslim American undergraduate women, I have found a great deal of strength, resourcefulness and complexity in how they process and construct responses that ultimately position themselves towards open mindedness, flexibility, self knowledge and the knowledge of various disciplinary systems. These are students who make the honor roll, serve in student government, hold leadership positions in student organizations and maintain ties with several communities. They are also figuring out where they stand in terms of their familial expectations, their careers and work towards greater economic parity during a time when they are constructed in very negative terms. I would not underestimate what their struggle entails- this is in fact self empowerment.

Having voices like these would illuminate the struggles and victories made by South Asian women in North America and add realism to the discourse on chowk. I seriously hope chowk starts to make a place for these voices if they want to be the change they express committment towards.

Even in this country, where you read and hear about both the good and the bad, the focus is not on the bad only. On one end, you read about JonBenet Ramsey, the sweet 6-year old, who was killed mysteriously almost a decade ago, but on the flip side, you also read about the Indian woman who made it to the CEO level at a large conglomerate. I am not sure if anyone read about the horrific case where a maniac killed his mother`s next door neighbor and was arrested while driving around with the victim`s head in his car. One cannot imagine that anyone in the ``civilized`` west would stoop to this level of depression to act and behave like a sick animal. Unfortunately, we are living in a world where many sick animals wear a fine facade of human beings. The major difference is that despite all the sick animals out there, the concept of accountability is not an alien term to this society. That accountability assists in creating a ``civilized`` system. The negative elements of this society are not that strong to take over this system.

Unfortunately, most of the South Asian female writers on Chowk have very little optimism in their writings. In a way, writing is also a reflection of the thinking process. Based on the write-ups on Chowk, it seems as if our women are deprived of the basic healthy elements that assist in forming and promoting positive thinking. What use is that education that does not prepare an individual to face challenges in life and overcome the hurdles?

Chowk is only an avenue for the writers and thinkers to express and share their perspectives on life. Chowk cannot inject women writers / interactors with a dose of enthusiasm. Both the spirit and optimism have to come from within.

Re: # 14

HP

``Generally, most of the feminists from Pakistan are looking for some cheap publicity and name recognition through some newspaper articles. I seriously doubt that they even have a clue about what women`s rights are``.

You are right. Feminists are usually prone to being presumptuous about women`s wants and rights. Men are born and grow generally grow in the company of women as their mothers or sisters but come into contact with the real woman as such only when they marry and only then they see the `Chureli` side of the woman when it is too late to mend. As some wise man has said, ``If one is not communist up to 30, it means he has no heart but if he remains so even after that it means that he has no brains``. The same is perhaps true with regard to being a feminist. I pity them as they cannot get what Mukhtaran Mai got only through her alleged rape by Mastoies. Woman has a cheque book which she can encash any time. What else she wants in a sex-starved society like that of Pakistan.

Re: # 27

Saima,

>>>>>>>>My proposal is that we invite formally groups of South Asian/Pakistani/Indian/Bangladeshi/Sri Lankan/Bhutani/Afghani and/or Muslim/Christian/Hindu/Parsi/Jain/ Jewish undergraduates women students and ask them to write about their experiences as students, workers, artists, intellectuals, organizers, representatives, and members of their various communities. I can guarantee that their input would radically change the discourse on this website.<<<<<

What a grrrreat breadth of mind! This is what I am looking for from Chowk on all issues not just one religion or two countries..... I am impressed by your activism.

Chowk guys/glas why dont you take Saima as an apprentice/Asst Editor?

Re: # 26

Let me put my point in another way: while it is important to discuss the work and achievement of Pakistani, Muslim and South Asian women on an ongoing basis, it is not enough. On one hand, highlighting the efforts of a woman or an organization educates the readership here of what this acting party is achieving. On the other hand, these kinds of discussions effect a passive engagement that seems to have very little impact on the lives of the readership.

It is easy to talk about women on a very abstract level. What I am proposing here is far more concrete that will show us how we transform this particular cyber community. Chowk Staff, I am giving you an idea, yet another one, it would serve your website to use it:

My proposal is that we invite formally groups of South Asian/Pakistani/Indian/Bangladeshi/Sri Lankan/Bhutani/Afghani and/or Muslim/Christian/Hindu/Parsi/Jain/ Jewish undergraduates women students and ask them to write about their experiences as students, workers, artists, intellectuals, organizers, representatives, and members of their various communities. I can guarantee that their input would radically change the discourse on this website. In addition, their discourses would (hopefully) acheive more tangible, scholarly and humane engagement with these issues than what chowk currently represents.

My point is lets see the practice in action. Can chowk transform itself before it claims to transform society?

However, in order to do this, there would have to be a zero tolerance policy on gendered harrassment.

#24

i think i have participated here long enough here, and in the ``real`` world to know what happens when a man or a woman`s perspective is not congruent with mine or yours, or with the desi muslim or any other religion female students. i have talked about that point quite a bit here at chowk which relates to why i`ve stayed away from here from time to time, but what i was trying to say in terms of this article, is that there are achievements by pakistani women in pakistan (i am talking about in pakistan) that we don`t get to hear enough about, other than by beena and bina, and that is work there in practice that i would like to know more about as well. it is going to come up against opposition, as it always does, but i would like to see our women (and men) writers based in pakistan to shed some light on that as well, be it an exercise in theory or practice.



#25

HP, it`s not that i object to domestic work, more than a few of us do that in our daily lives, my mother did it to a greater or lesser extent after her marriage. the reason i keep bringing that particular phrase up is because when someone writes, ``women are encouraged to perform domestic duties. . .`` there is an implication that they are not encouraged to go beyond that. even if this article is time-specific, or there is something very wrong because in this specificity, quite a few of the generalized ``women`` have been encouraged to go beyond that in spite of the opposition from certain sections of the community.

***

i would be the last one in the world to say that we should not focus on violence against women, or talk about where we are in terms of that or the plight of women. all i was trying to say was that i want to read about women who are doing something about it as well, women who have surmounted the obstacles and opposition, women like nafis sadik, who is focusing on women not just locally, but globally as well. laila kazmi has a write-up of her at http://www.jazbah.org/nafis.php

#18 by saminasha2

First, those were not my posts. I certainly love to abuse some people on UP and would continue to that as I think they are serial abusers and that is the only language they understand.

You are not a community advocate here and if you do want to associate with that group then go ahead and abuse me. I would rather take this up on UP though. Second, I don’t consider personal abuse matters more than the racial, ethnic and religion abuse that take place here. Personal abuses are just personal but community abuse is some thing I take exception too. Anyone doing that would continue to hear from me.

Since you have chosen to attack me personally, I would remind you that the only reason you are back on this site is to rag on Salim. I have not seen any worthwhile comment from you on this site and the only thing you post on UP always refers to Salim. I think you need to get over this obsession. This is my last post here on this and if you wanna continue to discuss this, look me up on UP.

#19 by ana
Ana,
“zara sochiye tau, there really is some truth to the personal being the political. this whole idea of not being ``critical`` of the government in order not to lose goodwill makes no sense really unless you`re a zombie, or automaton. . . the point is how to be critical and questioning in a manner that will not completely alienate you from people (something most chowk interactors have to learn as well) or the system, because one has to work not just without but within a system in order for it to change.”

Exactly!
Ana, my point is not that you don’t criticize the state or the government for not doing enough as you do need to build pressure on the state itself to change things around. In the US it is called lobbying. Despite the lobbying efforts, groups don’t give up the option of agitation and use it when they feel it to be the right move. Just study many groups here from NARAL to NRA and many more that work with the political system and gain support from the influential government functionaries.

We may agree that lobbying in Pakistan is different than in the US but I showed a good example of the HRC in Pakistan. They take up the government on every issue still they work with them and bring the point home consistently. In fact, the HRC in Pakistan has brought more cases of abuse to women in Pakistan than any women rights group and that is shame for all the so called feminist that would just regurgitate oft repeated clichés to get some name recognition as it is far more easier to accuse the government and religion than actually understanding the problem and look for ways to resolve them.

On other note on your post, I don’t consider domestic help type of work as demeaning to women or anyone else. They are doing a job and must be respected for that. But we cannot just overcome what has been practiced in our societies for centuries. The change in attitude takes a long time as it is ingrained in the minds of people. It has nothing to do with the government and a separate but coordinated effort is required for people to understand that.

I got to run now and I will take up some other points you raised in my next post.

Re: # 19

Interestingly enough, there are some very intelligent undergrad desi muslim students who work, study and negotiate their family`s expectations with their own. What would happen if THEY interacted here? Why have so many young women chosen not to?

Its one thing to ``write about`` women who are active in their lives-its quite another to respect their perspectives esp. when they are not congruent with yours. To me, this is another exercise in theory and not practice.

Re: # 20

I forgot to add! In USA companies there is great deal of emphasis on merits. But also punishment for failure and inefficiency. That is what happened to Carly Florina who was brought as CEO to Hewlett Packard- one of world`s the leading electronics and instrumentation companies. She couldnot deliver the goods. So she was simply fired. ( Of course there was a hefty golden parachute benefits of course!)

Same thing could happen to Indra Nooyi too. So just keep watching fellows!

Kamath

Re: # 20

``...Pepsi’s then CEO, Wayne Calloway, wooed Nooyi, according to BusinessWeek, by saying, ``Jack Welch the best CEO I know, and GE is probably the finest company. But I have a need for someone like you, and I would make PepsiCo a special place for you.’’ ...

Well. This one exceptional event does not reflect the overall status Indian of women or women of Indian origin abroad as all nice and goody goody. For every Indra Nooyi, there are million sad cases of women in India. They have to go long long way to better their lots.

Education and economic independence and changed social attitudes are some of the important keys to future success.

Kamath

Are there any articles on women in India? They may be relatively better in India but oppression is there in India as well. In middle-class, not much but in villages and poor, a lot. Among Muslims it`s as usual, though there are bright patches.

Since someone mentioned Indra Nooyi, here is an article from dnaindia.com that talks about her. She comes from the tamil brahmin community who have had their fair share of high achieving women (and men).

---

Indra K Nooyi spurned GE`s Jack Welch, went for fizz, won
Nandini Lakshman
Monday, August 14, 2006 23:22 IST

MUMBAI: At 50, Chennai born Indra Krishnamurthy Nooyi has shattered the ultimate glass ceiling, by moving into the corner room at PepsiCo Inc headquarters in the US.

But everyone knew that the freshly anointed chief executive officer of Pepsi was always different.

Who else would thwart an offer from the legendary corporate chieftain, General Electric’s Jack Welch in 1994, to change the fizz at Pepsi?

Pepsi’s then CEO, Wayne Calloway, wooed Nooyi, according to BusinessWeek, by saying, ``Jack Welch the best CEO I know, and GE is probably the finest company. But I have a need for someone like you, and I would make PepsiCo a special place for you.’’

V J Philip, former principal of the Madras Christian College, where Nooyi studied chemistry and physics 30 years ago, remembers Indra as “always a go-getter who had the capacity to rally around people and get them excited”.

He remembers how when a tough test paper was set up, Nooyi, who was then in the first year, got her class to solve it.

She then barged into the lecturer’s room to show him why everybody had performed badly.

Audacious?

“Far from it, we had a re-test,” says Philip, who was one of her chemistry lecturers.

In fact, standing up for what she believed in is a quality that Nooyi inherited from her mother. Along with sister Chandrika, who went on to work at the Citibank, the World Bank, the New York University’s Stern School of Business and then set up Tandon Associates, the Krishnamurthy girls were honed in on the art of leadership at a very young age.

People in Chennai say that as part of a daily post-prandial drill at home, the girls were asked by their mother to deliver a speech on what they wanted to be when they grew up. The most innovative was rewarded with a chocolate. “It didn’t matter what they said, but it instilled in them a sense of pride and the urge to dream big and chase that dream. It made them achievers,” says a family friend.

A people person, Nooyi’s negotiating skills were obvious from day one. Along with sister Chandrika — who was a singer — the Krishnamurthy girls were regulars in the cultural and social activities during their college days in the early ‘70s. Running around for ads for the college magazine, she would convince tight-fisted company managing directors to part with ads.

“She used her logical power to advantage,” says her college friend.

“Behind my cool logic lies a very emotional person,” Nooyi told an American business magazine six years ago. Today, as the highest-ranking India-born woman in corporate America, Nooyi has a track record of delivering time and again in PepsiCo’s global sweepstakes.

Working closely with CEO Roger Enrico, she was at the forefront of many of Pepsi’s business decisions, be it hiving its food chains, acquiring Tropicana, the merger with Quaker Foods, and taking the Pepsi Cola bottling group public. “The energy and time she puts in are incredible,” Enrico once said.

That’s why, like most workaholics, the office, remarked Nooyi once, is like her extended family. Her younger daughter often drops by, even when she isn’t in. Nooyi has said that she comes in to play Nintendo or do her homework or just chat up the big bosses. “There is always somebody or the other to help out,” she said.

While such help is welcome where her family is concerned, Nooyi has had a solo march up the corporate ladder. After a post graduation at Indian Institute of Management, Calcutta, she worked at Mettur Beardsell and then Johnson & Johnson in Chennai, as product manager for Stayfree sanitary napkins.

“That was a fascinating experience and I learned a lot,” she said, hawking personal protection products in a country where awareness levels were zilch.

And when she applied “on a whim and got” a management seat at Yale, the penniless Nooyi said, “she came as an intelligent person and left an educated person”.

Being a “poor Indian student”, most of the summer jobs were done in a sari. Once, she even went for an interview in a cheap $50 business suit and orange snowboots like “the ultimate country bumpkin”.

When a career counsellor advised Nooyi to wear what she was comfortable in, the sari became her trademark.

The attire, however, was no impediment to her first major job in corporate strategy at Boston Consulting Group.

Then over the next decade until the mid ‘90s, other senior management positions followed, first at Motorola and then Asea Brown Boveri.

Even today, Nooyi wears a sari to most of Pepsi’s functions. “Never hide what makes you,” she once said.

And last year, when she addressed students at Columbia University, her speech elicited brickbats for its supposedly “anti-US stance”.

Both Nooyi and the university were forced to make damage control statements about how it was misinterpreted, and how “she loves America dearly”.

But there are many who point out to the timing of the announcement.

“Pepsi is one of the largest funders of the US government. When something like this happens, it could be either co-incidence or an outcome of lobbying,” Miguel Loureiro, lecturer in developmental studies in a Pakistan university, told DNA Money.

He points out how only two days ago, the US government had reacted to the Coke-Pepsi controversy over the use of pesticides, by saying that a ban on the two players would affect trade.

“And now an Indian heads Pepsi,” he adds.

To be fair to Nooyi, her appointment to the Pepsi pinnacle has not come as a surprise. The Pepsi bosses had always singled her out for accolades. That’s not coincidence.

---

reading some of the comments here, i find that they echo some of the discomfort and disappointment i felt in initially reading this article, even though i was encouraging to the writer (HP, when you write of ``feminist`` responses on this topic, i think you were referring to 2 only before you got here no?)

i can see where one would be disappointed to read this all the time on chowk. violence against women continues not just in pakistan, but in other countries as well. i don`t think that there is anything wrong with writing on this topic though, or that one should not write about it, but when we speak of women in pakistan being encouraged to perform domestic duties, who are we talking about? not all the women in pakistan i grew up around. (my mother had a successful career before she married my father) this article makes no real separation between those in the urban areas and those in the rural. but times do keep a-changing for women in pakistan.

when i read this article the first time, i felt as if we were talking about afghanistan during the taliban regime. the picture of women is so bleak here, and it has been the case for more than a few women. additionally, we have a law from the time of the surma-eyed dictator that has still been on the books, and leaders following have never quite been able to remove that.

but women have made progress in pakistan in spite of that, and we need to have a balance here on chowk in terms of what women are doing in pakistan. write about the women, both in rural and urban pakistan who are making a difference, as well. i read this, and i know that women in pakistan are not as powerless as this article suggests, but let`s face it, the government right now, is in league with those who would rather the hudood ordinance stay in place, and who knows how long that will last, and how it will change, and what does that say about the government in terms of ``women`s issues``?

and HP, when you write about separating politics or political views from women`s issues, zara sochiye tau, there really is some truth to the personal being the political. this whole idea of not being ``critical`` of the government in order not to lose goodwill makes no sense really unless you`re a zombie, or automaton. . . the point is how to be critical and questioning in a manner that will not completely alienate you from people (something most chowk interactors have to learn as well) or the system, because one has to work not just without but within a system in order for it to change.

Re: # 14

Lets talk about what happens when certain principles are violated here:

1. As you pointed out, very few women interact on FP; would it be the general atmopshere in which any female interactor disagreeing with interactors like chuhan are called ``prostitutes``, and are compulsively referred to in sexually harrassing terms?

2. How about posts on FP that refer to explicit male behavior towards the bodies of sisters, daughters, mothers WITHOUT REPERCUSSION? (see: your posts as reposted by Subroto as evidence). Is the readership-mostly male and complacent-not aware of this cause and effect dynamic; most women will not interact in places they are disrespected.

3. Forget the chowk staff for a moment-what about the male readers on this site? Here is what interactors unhappy with chowk.com`s laissez faire attitude towards stricter regulations are told:

a. it`s just a website

b. it`s not your website

c. any degreed woman who would dare challenge even the least educated, most disgusting and ignorant among us (chuhan) deserves to be harrassed

d. women who disagree with whichever interactor/staff member that harrasses/ignores the harrasser doesnt belong on chowk

e. women in general don`t really belong on chowk, unless they get to point out how silly they are or how oppressed they are so that the male interactors who support their right to make and/or read derogatory comments about women under ``free speech`` get to make the occasional sympathetic noises, but generally do nothing when it comes to this website

f. is there a problem? only self serving, attention hungry feminists see problems (nevermind how well they are doing in their fields outside of chowk, inside chowk, they are just whining, nagging, incompetant aunties and prostitutes)

g. ignore it!



I hate to agree with Urstruly, but I would never ask my desi female students, friends, or relatives to visit this website, simply because to interact here is ultimately an humilating experience. Those of us who were here before it was acceptable for ``Muslim`` male chowk to post info about female interactors or insult them by calling them prostitutes or question who fathered their children used to believe we had a right to be here. But I`m beg. to believe that the writer of this piece is right-insecure desi men (and women) don`t care about women or their rights in any substantial way. Too many insecure desi men believe that their religion has given them the right-despite how jahil and self serving their behavior and world view is-to lord it over all women and their male feminist peers. On this particular point, I agree with the author.

nasah #13 What you write basically sums up the situation in Pakistan under ``Enlightened Moderate`` Musharaff regime: with a PM like that and a rapist-protecting President like Musharraf you have to go a long way -- bibi

Khoda mufooz rukhkhay ghum ko aisay ghumgusaaroN se.....

The problem again should be taken at its root...

The problem with Pakistan is , in every field, unconstitutional governance... and NOTHING else.

Pakistan`s constitution provides very emphatically for women`s empowerment and equality and it is a known fact that as long as the constitution was allowed to operate freely women were progressing in Pakistan... Just see the periods between 1947-1958, 1971-1977 and 1988-1999 ... this is when the women`s movements have been the strongest... 1947-1958 saw superb women`s activism ... as it was the women who had proved to be the most successful of all agitators in the Pakistan movement (the ML civil disobedience movement in Punjab in 1947 was led and fought by women) ... you read newspapers and journals frm that period right after indpendence and you see that the issue of women`s role in politics and society as a nation-builder was emphasised ... Raana Liaqat Ali, Jahanara Shahnawaz, Salma Tassadaq, Shaista Ikramullah and countless other women leaders fought together ona one point agenda... women`s liberation and they were successful in getting the Family laws amended and succeeded in restricting polygamy greatly...

Similarly 1971-1977 also marked tremendous progress for women ... most professional women, businesswomen, doctors, engineers on high positions today were part of the great PPP push for women`s development in the 1971-1977 period.... and the NGOs we see today proliferated in 1988-1999 period ... especially from 1988-1990 and 1993-1996...

Give Pakistan`s constitution in whatever mangled form it is now 30 years of breathing space and all ills will solve themselves... I am sure of it.

I just read a few paras and was deeply disappointed. Despite 9 years of Chowk`s existence, the kind of articles that are written on the plight women today are no different from those of the yester years. The world has changed a lot in the past decade. Many women have grown up, made significant progress in life, decided to run their own businesses, and are the leaders in the corporate world. Why are we indifferent to that picture? I did not see a single article/write-up on Pepsi`s Indira N. I understand all major publications are repeating the same 2-3 paras about her. The world needs to get a different picture of a South Asian Woman. Let`s put it this way - It`s simply embarassing and disturbing to read about our women dedicating their lives to their families, religion, culture and traditions.

Providing a writer an opportunity to share his or her thoughts is one thing, but promoting age old ideas and notions again and again to show sympathy to the cause of women is boring. The latter also defeats the purpose of having an ezine where you are able to read ``illuminating`` thought process.

This has now become a sort of tradition on chowk. Every month or so we see an article that talks about women’s rights in Pakistan and the article is followed up by obligatory “wah wah” posts by known feminist on this site (female numbers feminist or not, are declining fast on this site) Then we would have a few hangers on who would blame Islam on every ill of the society and finally someone would talk abt how his mother had to follow some rituals that he hopes his grand daughter would not have to follow. In between, Hamid would praise some unintelligent poster without even bothering to read the post. (btw, I think Hamidm reads every word of Asadi post for his breakfast, lunch and dinner breaks to learn something new abt the power elite before the day is over.)

Before I go into the other aspects of the article, let me reproduce the obligatory ending of all the feminists articles.
Here is how it goes, “the need of the hour is to redress the current plight of women, and that is not possible without their access to justice.”

This need of the hour entails many things and in this article the emphasis is on JUSTICE. It is like saying that since all men in Pakistan already have ACCESS TO JUSTICE, now women should have it too.

Since enlightening moderation is the buzz word nowadays, all the articles are sprinkled with references to “Enlightened Moderation”. And then another necessary ingredient to make the article a success is a reference to the Quran which claims that “Man and woman ``were created of a single soul,``. Finally, an honorable mention of cruel feudal customs like honor killing and how women carry the burden of keeping the society pious by covering themselves head to toe in raishmi ghalaf or lihaf or pillow covers. (Pillow covers are good as they end up showing all the contours of the pillow hidden there.)

Are women’s rights a problem in Pakistan alone? Is this a problem for Muslim women alone? Why Pakistani feminists are obsessed with the idea that if a few laws are changed everything would be hanky dory for women in Pakistan?

Let us just look at the women rights situation in the countries west of Pakistan. Are things any better? I think they are worse. Now I am not going to bring in the most modern country on the East as women there have more rights than the women in the western world and that country is so perfect that child marriages, dowry, and stove burning do not happen there. So I will just hop to other countries. Let us see what right Chinese women have? For crying out loud, that country has no civil rights for the whole population what to talk of women alone. Try Myanmar, Thailand, Vietnam, and countries in between. Even Japan is struggling with women rights issues and they don’t follow Islam or nobody talks “Enlightened Moderation” in those countries at all.

The first failure of Women rights activists from Pakistan is that they cannot distinguish between the political demands and the women rights. The minute they start criticizing the government, they start losing whatever little goodwill there is in some government quarters for the women. Why can’t the activists keep their political views separated from the women’s issues?

Why they always have to quote some silly little aiat or surah from the Quran to support their demands? The minute you do that you give power back to the mullah because the society including the women accepts the mullah to be the interpreter of the religion.

The women’s rights struggle should be based on universal principals and not on fighting religions and speaking out against the political authorities. Follow the HRC policies, they are extremely active, but they stay away from becoming political partisan despite often coming out against the current government.

This post is already too long…I will come back to this later…Generally, most of the feminists from Pakistan are looking for some cheap publicity and name recognition thru some newspaper articles. I seriously doubt that they even have a clue about what women`s rights are.

``The Quran in particular is addressed to all Muslims, and for the most part it does not differentiate between male and female. Man and woman, it says, ``were created of a single soul,`` and are moral equals in the sight of God``(emma A)

bibi -- your prayers for Quran and Sunnah laws for the emancipation of women in Pakistan -- have been answered -- not by God -- but by your Western educated Prime Minister -- who has just emancipated your gender from the violence and degradation of those medieval woman-tormenting gender-degrading, psychologically-debilitating, criminally assaulting -- Islamic Hudood laws!

Here is what he has to say how he is going to emancipate you:

``Women Protection Bill to be in accordance with injunctions of Quran, Sunnah: PM

ISLAMABAD: Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz said Saturday that the Women Protection Bill will be in accordance with the injunctions of the Quran and Sunnah for the protection of (Pakistani) women.....``

this is called the Homeopathic Treatment of the ailment -- give the same poison that caused the disease to the dying patient and he or she will sit up and be cured of the disease for ever........as Ghalib would say: ``agar aur jeetay ruhtay vohee intazaar hotaa``.......

with a PM like that and a rapist-protecting President like Musharraf you have to go a long way -- bibi

Khoda mufooz rukhkhay ghum ko aisay ghumgusaaroN se.....

If you take a word ``wo man`` its can complete with ``man`` Right.
Yesterday I was the surfing channels on TV for an hour I just found women, from Newscaster, fashion designer, Doctors, engineers students and so on .. whom are from kuwait Bharin, Qatar,Iraq,Iran,Bangadesh, Lebnon, Pakistan and of course India.

But Still some of them always thinks like poor country singer who is always broken hearted and cry about his poor life.

Hi Gals C’mon! Please stop blaming the Culture, Taboos and Government. ,You don’t chose your family but you chose your friends . If you always think and act like ``Becharee`` / “Maskeen” or broke Saudi women, what you think! That will change the world no way !

Your are making yourself desperate, Let take a example of women in India, Pakistan even in America they also have more issues then yours but it s not the end of the world.

We American proclaim that Women suffer in Asia. Did you every seen a Women Chief of the State in America. Of course your answer is No, But you know Indra Gandi, Benazir butto, Khalda Zia, Hasina Wajid, Gloria, and new women leader of Germany and Latin America and lots.

What you think the Henry Clinton or Candy Rice will be the president of USA?
No way !

Enjoy your life! Life is fulfill with lot of Fun, Entertainment and Love.

Yes I know the feeling of the girls and women in Pakistani society form every single Schooling, Transportation, Office, Susral and more. ( note I am not a Gay by the way)

But think Positive and Think global!

Later
Ahad

Re: # 7

inquirer,

........ good analysis .......... unfortunately even the author doesn`t `get it` as is apparent from the wishy-washy last paragraph .......

Emma,

Hear hear!

And Here, HERE!

Thank you chowk.com for yet another article that calls for gender equity and respect and yet is congenitally incapable of applying that practice on this website.

ally:

emailed you re: my blog. didn`t think this was the place to respond to that.

love, ana

Emma

We just have to look at our own mothers to see what happens to women in Pakistan. When my mother got married my Nani said to her `you leave this house in a doli, when you leave that house it will be in a coffin`

My mother is of a different generation and time who accepted their parents decision without question. The mantle is with the younger women who will have to empower themselves, cause the men are not going to do it, as it goes against their interests. You have a long struggle ahead of you, God bless and good luck!

A

---

Ana

Nice to see you here, is your blog down? i cant acces it!

I can see Emma Alam`s dilemma, frustration, anger and desire for rebellion. Though I support her stance, the issues are complicated. And, we need to disect the issues discussed by her in clear groups.

First: Religio-social issues which originate in the religion, Islam. Second: Sociopolitical issues which originate in the politico-economical frame work in Pakistan. Let us for simplicity limit ourselves to the range of issues at hand, namely, related only to Pakistan.

All patriarchical religions have a built-in bias against women (For a Chowk discussion of these issues see my board on Religious Scriptures and Women in Year 2003.).

Now limiting myself to Islam, I believe:

(i) Islam was initially equitable for women in economic sense AS LONG AS each woman resigned herself to the domain of the man in charge at the moment of her life. That was a victory of sorts in the Seventh Century AD. At that time the inter-gender equality was inconceivable because even all men were not considered equal. Universally, pyramidal structures existed. Whichever, man could muster largest number of killers on his side was to be served by all others directly or indirectly.

(ii) Islam has continued to develop and maintain the tyrannical structures needed to systematically terrorize all women by first keeping education low in among all men and secondly by denying education to girls almost totally. This is done to keep them for baby factory work.

(iii) This is consistent with the general intolerance among Muslims to all humans who do not yield to the supremacy of Muslim ruler. No wonder the Masjids are the beneficiaries of the King`s wealth. The Masjid`s in turn perpetuate the delusional religious atmosphere to which the majority of uneducated Muslim men succumb keeping them under the thumb of the local rulers.

(iv) The end result of all this is that Islamic religio-social systems have been untouched by the modernity and enlightenment which has been found in modern Christianity and Hinduism (which by the way was never so anti-feminine because of the very early weakening of the temples` organization and systematic requirement that a wife was necessary for religious ceremonies, in addition to the military defeat of Hindus by Muslim invaders. The last one resulted in the moderation of Hindu male and simultaneous bumptiousness of the Muslim male.).

So what is to be done?
First: Divorce education from religion. Most of the educated Hindus know little of religion except there family traditions.
Second: Reduce to eliminate the state funding of the Masjids.
Third: Educate the Mullahs.
Fourth: Develop constitutions within the States whose highest aim is to improve the lot of humans in their own country instead of conversions of Kafirs.
Fifth: Have actual democracy with equal voting rights for all with totally joint electorates and local elections.
Finally, keep your fingers crossed that a military general will not subvert the society and its aims.

Nice Article,,
It enlighten foremost unsolved problem of Pakistan.
Totally agreed,

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Re: # 3
correction coas=Chief of army staff of Islamic republiscs of Pakistan( aka Pakistan)
Kindly correct spellings in your mind while reading, trying best to write correct spelling)

Pakistan is problem to women but at same time pakistani women get special treatment like reserved number of seats. That is ok acceptable. But problem is in general seats also they can contest also this is not fair I think for men its at cost of men . B.Bhutto was one of strong primeminister .
Mr.Romair wrote some hindu( ?) woman got top job at cocacola company( 1 million dollars per month salary). So this dark woman must be putting fear in white mans hearts as she can hire and fire white men. Also Mr. Mittals daughter is top shot in steel company. They must be afraid of her as she tells daddy and she closes factories to reduce costs. She spent 100 million dollars for her own marriage. She is sindhi and her daddy comes from state adjacent to sindh. She said she considers B.Bhutto as role model.While Soniya Gandhi is strongest and powerful woman in world and first time Woman controls nuclear bombs of India or any country (B.Bhutto was not allowed to get control coaf of pakistan contrlled crowned jewels they call as code for atom Bomb.
So this is not bad as these women as strong as any big man. Women have problems as top rulers they tend to go for war to humilate men. As Indira gandhi went to war and putting humilating conditions on Y.Khan took revenge. While jew woman made war gainst Arab forces and defeated mens and due to Nassar got heart attack and died as woman humilated her that was too much for arab man and general of army. same way english pm woman thacher made war against Aggentine army and defeated and humilated opponents, she made geogrge bush make war saying act as man, same problemo in russia acatherine Great, she made wars and troubled people same problem in lanka Lady president tear down plans of Man PM to make peace and went for war and bangladesh both begums are fightening like dogs, its credit to mrs bhutto amd mrs soniya gandhiji never made war. SO I am for women but just do not make PM at this time as they have tendency to make war. This is due to women angry attitude and just like women think country is like baby and like Tigress they get fast angry and tendency to fight. That is only problems so at this time with bombs with Mrs Gandhiji and if Mrs B.Bhutto becomes PM chances of war goes up. I do not know there is biological basis of war orientede attitude or it has Anthropogical basis but we women fight lot. Also lot of men are afraid of their wife (Urban). Sigmund little intelligent Jew wrote I studied women all life and more I study more i get lost. I do not know much about this things. just my feeling.
I wonder women Rulers can lead to wars? Record is not best. Readers can throw light. I wonder is that reason boy child always become king? More one thinks more its get complicated, Igronance is bliss.

Thanks Ms.Alam for taking effoerts and putting the article and I agree most of you have written. You have correctly put what are great obstacles for women put by men and gods and man made laws. Instead of improving ``hadood`` laws those laws need to be abolished as massaging or changing little things will not change nothing. Under cover of traditions women will be supressed in for long time.
There will be no help from goverment in near future as they are there to rule not to reform. I have come to conclusion ``moderation and moderate`` are most dishonest people and they will not deliver any thing but just enforce status Quo and always will give justification and saying saying things need to be improved but time has not come and so go slow, hold on fort. General president is good man and he is modern in his personal relationships but he can not do much has his survival depends on people for whom women are few points above cattle.
It takes man sensitivity and time and maturing to understand suffering. For many women life is hell and these is escape only by being dead. When I was small my mother use to cry and at age of 12 I asked why you cry. She told me son do not worry women always cry and you should not worry about women crying. It took decades and maturity for me to understand the the misery she and many have to go through. Sadly most men get imunue to suffering as fact is sad thing.
I have three daughter and I always concisouly try to be just to them and being sensetive. Still I regret of things and feel was wrong today as aftermath. I encouraged them to study and always sat down and studied ther books and taught and have just still pleasure of remember of seeing them getting educated.
Most I worried about was their travelling by public busses for colleges. As men were so rude to them my elder daughter was so humilated by bad behaviour her mother told me she is thinking of quitting I felt so helpless. Then I had to cajole and plead and beg not to do such things.
I can not change world but can be better in my personal life. One has to correct mistakes if you find them. I am conservative and simple person so never have TV in house so avoid bad influence from India that has helped. I had banned lipstick for two elder daughters but younger threated me so I thought about it permitted and I regretted why I was so insensetive. I always encouraged younger to think like man with confidence. Once she complained she is woman and not going to good position etc even after studies in mans world. I told her look `` I tell you are as good as or better as men in your engg college so do not talk of despair. But if you feel you are inferior to them then you are, onus is on you.
I hope as things economically improve then things will hopeful become better for women.
Thanks for your article. Good day.

emma,

good to see this article here. a few points though:

there`s a part of this article in quotes, and yet when i look for the source, it isn`t readily given. i see that there is mention of the government in the preceding paragraph. is what is within quotation marks a statement from someone in government? it`s not quite clear.

i am in agreement about the situation of women in pakistan, but i feel that you veer towards generalization sometimes to make your points. i certainly do not think that things are improving in terms of violence towards women, but i wonder if i am the only one who is slightly uncomfortable with your portrayal of pakistani women at some points.

i like this:

Lack of education and general misconception regarding women rights are major hurdles in the emancipation of women, thus this bleak ignorance nurtures the seed of violence watered by suppression, chauvinism, and injustice. Majority of them is unaware of their own rights, it’s not the religion but the social fabric and false norms, which bring discrimination between man and woman, make dominant the former and deprived, the latter.

best,
ana