The Death of a Nawab

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006 11 17 story_17-11-2006_pg3_5



Daily Times, Lahore, Pakistan
Friday, November 17, 2006


Bhashani: the man that was
By Afzal Khan


.....[Maulana Bhasani] was ... builder of politics of democratic opposition in the post-partition era and on June 24, 1949, founded the first viable opposition party - the East Pakistan Awami Muslim League (EPAML). He remained a central figure and both a maker and shaker of events, particularly during the most turbulent phase in East Pakistani politics, before and after 1971.


The EPAML was a reaction to the machinations of the Muslim League establishment under Nawabzada Liaquat Ali Khan and Khaleequz Zaman who, in complicity with Nawabs of Dhaka and the Bengali aristocracy worked to vilify and marginalise authentic Bengali leaders and top figures of Pakistan movement like Hussain Shaheed Suharwardy, Maulvi Fazlul Haq, the mover of Lahore Resolution and Bhashani. They were branded as traitors. Liaquat called Suharwady a ``mad dog let loose by India``.


Neither Bhashani nor Suharwardy immediately returned to Pakistan after partition to claim their share in power. Bhashani remained in Assam to protect Bengali settlers against persecution and expulsion while Suharwardy stayed in Calcutta as the prime minister of undivided Bengal to stop the terrible Hindu-Muslim bloodbath. On his return, Suharwardy was divested of the membership of the Constituent Assembly and banned from addressing any public rally. Bhashani`s election to the provincial assembly in a by-election was annulled by the governor who also disqualified him until 1950. Thus every trick in the book was used to derail the growth of democracy in the formative years of Pakistan.


In the 1954 provincial election, Bhashani, along with Suharwardy and Fazlul Haq, formed a United Front of six political parties that won a landslide victory nearly obliterating the Muslim League which could secure only seven seats in the 300-member assembly. This time the Ghulam Mohammad-Ayub-Sikandar Mirza axis conspired to nullify popular mandate and dismissed the Fazlul Haq government on sedition charges for asserting East Pakistan`s demand for provincial autonomy. The die was cast for the disintegration of Pakistan. .....

Re: # 323
Nasah, I do agree that Pakistan would not have achieved as much as it did had it not been for 9-11. But my only point is that people are so upset at the killing of Bugti that they forget that Baluchistan was a different country in Pakistan. There was a different law and order situation and Bugti was nothing more than a Saddam wannabe. All he did was keep people from education and basic needs and keeping the wealth to himself. If you were not a Baloch you could not enter baluchistan without fearing for your life. These politicians who are crying right now are happy deep inside becaue they know that they could not have stood up to him. These people shout for democracy but what what has democracy given us except Surray Palace and Raiwand estate to name a few. I lived in Karachi during Zia regime and in Bhutto`s and nawaz`a rule. Even though Karachi was not really booming in Zia`s times, during Bhutto`s and especially Nawaz`a times all the money was taken and was spent in Punjab (especiallt lahore). The end result was Karachi getting nothing and Lahore being developed at an extraordinary pace. So being a true pakistani and a karachiite I have only seen the worse those two have brought on this country. If you can give me one example of a good thing those two have done, I might change my mind (not that it might matter to you :)).

Re: # 352 Romair:
Romair:
What sort of charges are the torture victims typically accused of? Are these people being tortured for political/religious beliefs or for violations of the military code?

ijaz_gul...........to some extent you are correct. though not completely. much of what i belived in has been strengthened by this new insight into pakistani society. i would say i was correct on most things, previously. however, certain views have changed..........

- my view that the top tier of politicians are scoundrels has strengthened further, having seen their own second tier accuse them of such...........however, i have met quite a few in t second tier who are quite decent fellows......moreso than i expected......

- i always felt that the top tier of the military is a problem......however i never realizd how much of a problem......i didn`t realize the degradation of their ethics to the level i have seen now..........at the same time, i always felt that the military as an institution, at least at the lower level, is alright........that view has changed. the military, as an institution, has degenerated significantly........it is a bigger problem than i initially thought....

- i always felt the economy was growing well, under musharraf, and that proved correct. and my positive view of the private sector has strengthened further.......

- my views that the debate on religion and secularism in pakistan is of little interest to the public and politicians proved true........at the same time my view that pakistanis are, at heart, a non-theocratic state proved true also.........

etc. etc.

the two major changes of views are realizing that while i always thought musharraf should have left after three years, i didn`t realize how much of a liability he has become. primarily because, i didn`t realize, how ruthlessly he has destroyed any institution below him.......i still think he has (mostly) the correct ideas for pakistan, but his own illegitimacy has forced him to make too many comprimises.....

- the second change was the amount of disallusionment that exists in pakistan. i expected the society to be more upbeat about their future, now that the economy is doing well........but that was not the case.........

Re: # 404

Mr. Gul,

I noticed that u never crossed the line of decency (though I occasionally do for some unruly guys).

What u think is the course for the hoi polloi in Pakistan? As I understand there is no civic agenda but quasi-theocratic agenda in Pak. That kind of consciousness runs thru` elite and commners alike. Pl correct me if I am wrong.

I am a converter to Baloch sympathy after seeing the stone-age lives of some people in Balochistan. It seems that they live the way our Indus Valley people lived during 2500 BC. I dont see much difference between the settlements in Lothal, Dholavira and their stone hutments in Balochistan. Do you?

Regards,

Romair,
I have seen you on chowk for a long time. For the most time you stood by the Pakistan Policies and supported them staunchly. It finally took a visit to Pakistan and association with writing a book that has caused a volte face. You claim to met many people in all tiers of establishment and have inside knowledge.

Yes I too am disappointed with the latest episode of Balochistan and my feelings are spelled in my views on un plugged, but as educated Pakistanis, we are not required to jump boats. Rather, we should be the voices of consience and reflect the true thoughts of the majority of our people.

Cherrios

Re: # 401

VRV
Thank you dear for your courteous and detailed reply. I loved Balochies for their valour and their courteous behaviour and sincerity of character despite their despise for Punjabies.

The semantics shown by DCO, Lasi, reminded me of a couplet of Ghalib:

``Chand tasaaweere butaan chan haseenon ke khatoot
Bahd marne ke mere ghar se yih samaan nikla``


Was all this just for a spectacle and a Rolex watch? After all he went through; he turned out to be
just a petty thief. Ibtida Mush, intiha Lasi. What a drama it was, ik chor ik shaheed. God bless the illustrious Bugti, he died like Hussein exposing the petty Yazeediat of the murderers.

soysauce...............``The torture - is it because of personal vendetta or is it more political and in ``national interest?``

of all the things that disappointed me in pakistan, this had to be the most disappointing. torture is normal in pakistan, in its jails. in fact, by law, prisoners are allowed to be beaten. and they are beaten black and blue. these are normal criminals. not the ones in for separatist movements or spies etc.......

what was the most depressing was the amount of torture in the military. i have lost a lot of respect for the military after this trip. go to any military station and you will see soldiers under trial, rotting in military jails, unnecessarily, for months and months.

the ones tortured specifically by the musharraf govt. fall into two categories. the first category are the politicians who are tortured in the sense that they are locked up in inhuman conditions for months. and some who are picked up and beaten up.

all the above i am 100% sure about......i saw it first hand........

then there are the ones who are heavily tortured. i think journalists who report on waziristan and us actions through pakistani base(s) etc. are tortured big time. one was killed and his body was found three months after he had disappeared. this is the general consensus.......

and i assume (not sure) that anyone whose name comes in any form on terrorism (actual or otherwise) must have been tortured heavily..........

p.s. i doubt one can compare any dictatorship of indira gandhi with that of musharraf.........musharraf is literally a one man show..........the only check on him is the press...........that`s it...........

Re: # 400

To Mr. Shah & all concenrned:

Pl see http://dawn.com/2006/09/02/top1.htm and www.paktribue.com as well.

Abdul Samad Lasi is seen holding the wrist watch as a souvenir. What a disgusting sight! It looks like Musharraf is showing the contempt for Bugti thru` Lasi by such vulgar display of personal belongings after burying the dead! It looks like ``I`ve got him!`` expression on his face.

For a towering tribal like Bugti who lived for honour this is an anti-climax, no doubt!

Re: # 398

Respected Shah Saheb,

I have mixed feelings about Bugti`s career but as a leader with 50-odd years of political life he doesn`t deserve this dog`s death. Even if he had this death, he deserved a decent burial from his family members but NOT from his adversary Lasi as the solemnising official.

There was this hush-hush from Mushy`s admin. I mentioned this in my ilogs. They changed versions as there was groudswell of sympathy even from Mush`s own cronies like Shujaat, Kasuri & Mushahid not to mention the comments from Nawaz Sheriff and other political leaders. Even MMA is encashing the public resentment of Bugti`s murder by organising Strikes.

I saw the photos of the specatacles and Rolex watch of Bugti (Daily Times). The caption itself tells as to what`s behind the unbruised spectacles!

For man of lifetime tribal life, burial by his adversary is the worst thing for any tribal leader. It`s worse than death. Adbul Samad Lasi was his adversary and he administered the burial PLUS he confirmed the deadbody as that of Bugti! What a shame to the deadman!!

Musharraf can be held for these indiscretions by politicians and public alike. Since Mush is not accountable for anybody, he wont care BUT people wud rememebr this. There were a loose string of small leaders from Balochstan BUT there`s no icon for them. Musarraf gave them one. As for the words of Jamali he`s sitting on the fence now. He wud change tack as the developments unfold or he may revert to administration man if the upsurge subsides.

All in all, Khan of Kalat spoke in unabigious terms for the first time, I think. Many commentators were predcitng the 1971 events since 2005 or so but who cares! Mush is not accountable to anybody nor there`s any value for public opinion in your country. Both of these points are interlinked. Had Mush been an elected man, he`d have been guaging the public pulse on his actions. He need to be guagng the pulse of Dubya, unfortunately.

Personally I dont think that Bugti was standing for any values but the die was cast in 2004 and that was Mush Vs 3-Sardars as proxy for the whole of Balochistan. For all his colourful life, Bugti volunteered to fight tooth and nail.

All military Generals oversaw the weakening of the dream of a frail Bombay Khoja. For all their best intentions Generals are the curse of Pakistan and they wud continue to be so. This General is no differtn from others. I dont know when wud you get rid of this Nemesis. Some people may not like my plain speaking and mistake it for abuse. I wont be talking with you irresponsibly. This is what I feel abt the latest developments.

P.S: I do get mails from some important Baloch leaders (In Pak and elsewhere) with detailed info on latest developments and their viewpoints on them. For reasons of confidence I wudnt disclose those details.

=== Interact Filtered ===
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Re: # 397

The most heinous show in this whole horrible episode of the murder of Akbar Bugti was in my view the display of the spectacles and watch of the Shaheed Nawab by the DCO, Dera Bugti, at the burial. What a `maal-e-ghanimat` he got as a result of the murder of an illustrious Baloch brother who dared to stand up against the despotism in uniform! History will perhaps never forget such a cynical spectacle.

BTW, why is he not charged for theft for all that which belonged to the heirs of the Nawab Shaheed?

Is govt of Pakistan trying to cover-up something about Nawb Bugti`s assasination? It looks like!

(www.balochwarna.org)

Balochwarana believes that the body of SHAHEED NAWAB BUGTI has not been buried. we believe the body is still in the costudy of pakistan`s punjabi authorities. Pakistan is trying to hide its Crime agianst humanity/against Baloch Nation. According our independent sources that cave which was shown to Media people is NOT the palce were Nawab Bugti was residing. Thus is proves that pakistani authorities have used chemical weapons and clusters bombs against Baloch fighter and now hiding their crime.

Another 65 people have got martyred in this fight and the govt has failed return a single body. we are sure non of the body is in that so called cave. Even according to media people they have seen some bodies aound that area but the pakistan`s punjabi army did not allow them to take thier pictures. We believe pakistani media is also baised to the govt and is NOT showing/telling the truth to the Nation.

However from www.thenews.com.pk

HIS SON HAD TO SAY THIS:

Jamil Bugti criticised the military for burying his father’s body in Dera Bugti and not in Quetta. “The government is scared the people will show their anger if my father is allowed to be buried in Quetta,” he said. “But they want to bury him in Dera Bugti, where there are no family members present, so they can cover up this cold-blooded killing. It’s unethical and immoral. We and the entire Baloch nation are not surprised over this act by the military, which has no regard for values,” he said.

& THIS IS MQM`S ALTAF HAD TO SAY:

Muttahida Qaumi Movement chief Altaf Hussain has said that the burial of Nawab Akbar Bugti without handing over his body to his next-of-kin was totally un-Islamic, immoral and inhuman.

In a statement issued on Friday from London, he said refusal to return the body of the veteran politician to his family was an offence even more heinous than murder.

He heaped scathing criticism on the government for this act.

He said family of Nawab Akbar Bugti should have been given a chance to complete all the formalities and go through the rites of the burial as enjoined by religion and age-old tradition.

Altaf said that even the body of a convict who is hanged to death is always handed over to his immediate family members, be it in Pakistan or elsewhere in the world.


THIS IS THE MUSHY`s HENCHMAN HAD TO SAY:

A plywood box, which was sealed by two China-made locks and buried in a graveyard &

Lasi refused, telling reporters it is “illegal to show his face” (Abdul Samad Lasi is a sarkari i.e Mushy Lasi).


NOW, WHO`S TELLING THE TRUTH?

Umair, so basically it`s a one-man show.
We had a one-woman show in india and she was (an) elected (dictator.)
The torture - is it because of personal vendetta or is it more political and in ``national interest?`` (We torture naxalites or anyone the local police finds inconvenient and brands naxalite all the time so it`s a mix of ``national interest`` and personal)

soysauce........i have probably been more pro-military (or less anti-military would be a better term) than most on this site. however my facts, specifically about the military are very accurate. the next best thing to actually seeing things myself. i talked to people who were tortured. i know quite a few people in the military in high positions, having spend some time in it myself.

this dictatorship, by normal world dictatorship standards, is overall very benign. no doubt about that. only certain people are targeted. politicians and a few others. press is as free as never before. etc.

however that is not the point of discussion. the point being discussed is that nothing is done institutionally. it is musharraf`s will and whim. i didn`t realize how much, until this trip. he started off innocently enough. but now his own illegitimate position has forced him to delegitimize everything. he may not have put tanks on the streets to kill people, but the executive, judiciary and legislature have had tanks rolled over them........

that is not to say ppp and pml and mqm etc. didn`t do the same and won`t do the same again. which is the whole point. every direction one looks at, one sees the same thing.........

one point does need to be made however. the civilan leaders i talked to did seem to have some respect and fear of the judiciary. as well as of the press and of the general awam and its voting power. the military guys feared no one........other than the ability of the press to embarrass them, now and then. which musharraf could shut off, if he wanted to........

hasanji,
as dictatorships go, this one does look to be benign - take Umair`s contention that the media are free. Either the dictator is a fool to let them write/speak what they want or he really has not much to hide....

a bloody benign dictatorship indeed......like the bloody benign dictatorship of the one before

Re: # 352
Umair, this was supposed to be a benign dictatorship!
I`d mention tho that i`m a bit skeptical since you have always been anti-military.
We should ask hamidmji as he has relatives high up in the military...

The way Zia handled the corpse of his ``judicial killing`` of a Sindhi icon and the way Musharraf handled the corpse of Balochi icon after his extra-judicial killing is so uncannily similar -- one is compelled to hope that Musharraf`s goose doesn`t end up on the Balochi knife board -- the way Zia`s ended up in the Sindhi meat grinder......

in Pakistan`s army colleges apparently nobody teaches history or territorial geography.......only the high tech strategies of self invasions....self conquests...and self destruction.....

btw -- talking of asinine assassinations of country’s leaders by world`s as(s)inine asses -- there is a movie being released by British film industry in October titled: The Assassination of George Bush...(be glad not of Musharraf)….

Re: # 389

Zee

I am not a guy who`d run away.

U need to explain how I post my ugly mug here.

#387 by VRV

VRV I promise I will post a close-up ... don`t worry ... but it`s your turn buddy. Didn`t you say so?

#386 by muqaddam

Yes.

The last word is fcuk off.

This site is not for you. It belongs to people who have a modicem of intellect. It belongs to people whom don`t want to spread hate but to spread reason. It certainly is not for people like you or of your ilk.

So, fcuk off or you`ll be forced to leave with your pants around your ankles.

DimZee,

You look like a Macaque in the long shot photo.

Why dont u post a close-up photo?

Re # 369

I suppose you are reminded of your mom and sis who must be getting the rod from some Talib in your mohalla.

Mr whoever-you-are, the way you react to every post only leads to one conclusion - your worth is not even that of a dela ( for the uninitiated, delas are pebbles always kept on person by devout muslims. Every time after doing the number two they dab their penis on a dela which is then thrown away, the idea being not to allow urine leftovers to come in contact with one`s clothes)

I am sure you will like to have the last word?

I`ll give you a long one as well... don`t worry ... now your turn!

Your turn AH .... the other monkey Krishna has run away anyway ... so you can take over ...

Re: # 377

ZeeMacaque,

Why long photo? Are you shy of close-up OR worried of macaque comments?

Re: # 381

ZeeMacaque,

I can load my ugly mug there...

Your ugly mug has to be on the web for you to post it. Is it on the web?

Re: # 379

Zee I will post my ugly face.

Tell me as to how I paste a photo.

I am trying the right click of mouse. Not working..

krishna_abcd,

Now your turn ugly south-indian AH! Don`t back out.

Re: # 377

Zee,

All look like macaques. Which macaque is you?

I am one of these three.

Or maybe I`ll do it right now .....

#373 by krishna_abcd

LOL ... maybe I will sometime .....

#371 by krishna_abcd

I see.

Next? What is the difference?

#356 by zeemax

[We are not related. Regardless of what hamidm used to say about grandpa gopinath and all the BS, see how one can easily tell apart on a western street who is a hindian and who is a Pak. ]

I wish it was easy to tell the difference.

Most people in North India (and many in South India) are indistinguishable from many Pakis unfortunately. Which is why we Indians have to bear the brunt of Americans` hatred for Muslims and the Britishers` hatred for Pakis.

This looks thing seems to be a common theme for Idiot Pakis. Unfortunately, in spite of your half-breed product-of-rape status, most Pakis look like Indians.I know LOTS of ugly-a$$ Pakis in the USA. I know MANY Keralites that are FAR better looking than many ugly-a$$ Pakis.

As I`ve said before, let`s see how good-looking you are. Post your mug on this board. I am willing to bet you are one sorry-a$$ ugly Paki. I think you are probably dark-complexioned as well (from your frequent rants against dark-complexioned Indians).

Go ahead, Taliban-monkey. Do it.

:)

``GREAT of you Ahmadis to be the janitors in Pakistan``

Despite fondest Indian hopes and Mullah desires ... the Ahmaddiya community remains one of the most prosperous, educated and patriotic Pakistani communities...

I`ll give you the name of an Ahmadi janitor... Shahnawaz... he owns the largest Mercedes Benz Franchise in South Asia...

Re: # 353 by zeemax:

[Is there a difference?]

Idiot Paki thinks idiot Paki has got a winner here.

Yes, Idiot, there are a million differences. But that would not be apparent to idiot Pakis whose brains have been numbed by the pedophile`s message.

Here`s a few for starters:

1) The Indian woman voted for the laws that the policeman is upholding.

2) A female judge might have issued the orders to the policemen to break up the crowd.

3) The police are beating up everyone, man or woman.

4) Female police and male police beat up male and female protesters.

5) That woman has the opportunity to become a legislator or an activist and change the laws which the man is upholding.

and so on.....

#368 by dost-mittar

I also feel that it reduces the effectiveness of otherwise knowledgeable and well-informed interactors like zeemax.

Yes. I could spend the same time in discussing WTO and the South Asian econiomies with you which I spend in gaalum-galoch.

#366/367

Ok. I got it. Thanks. I.e. The Indian daroga is just directing which way the woman should proceed

So that`s how Indian Darogas should direct your mom and sis.

godot:

My disgust is at gaalis, not who is doing it to whom or what group he (rarely she!) identifies with. I also feel that it reduces the effectiveness of otherwise knowledgeable and well-informed interactors like zeemax. BTW, I have no problems with the pictures posted by zeemax.

bulleya:

Interesting points. What you said about the Indian senior and junior level of Pakistani judiciary is equally true of the Indian judiciary, except that the senior judiciary zealously guards its independence from the executive. That too is perhaps because it has never been tested. The one time it was tested by Indira Gandhi, it did not exactly cover itself with glory. The same goes for Indian journalists.

Sorry, the re should read # 365

Re # 354

The Indian daroga is just directing which way the woman should proceed. Note the difference in the stance of the two and the way they are wielding their sticks.

Re: # 364

Zee Baboo,

I am looking for u on Iran board and u r loitering here!

OK, I reproduce the msgs on Iran board here.


+++++++

#137 by VRV on September 1, 2006 7:53am PT
Max DimZee,

Dont search Google. Give ur reply that comes from your heart.

Is it right to cut the throat of a grown-up girl as if the imaginary honour is more important the happiness of the girl?

Are u heartless people?


[Reply to interact #137]


#136 by VRV on September 1, 2006 7:50am PT
Zee MaxDim,

Are u alright?


[Reply to interact #136]


#135 by VRV on September 1, 2006 7:47am PT
Re: # 134

ZeeDim,

Did u faint?


[Reply to interact #135]


#134 by VRV on September 1, 2006 7:41am PT
Re: # 132

DimZee,

Taliban caning women for going outside without male companions - a primitive mindset. (Taliban mindset is based on Islamic principles, I guess).

Indian women police cane these girls for defying the prohibitory orders : a reaction to a civil offence by the girl.

This is done in any civilised country. In the west they push these girls with shields (a more sophisticated way, naturally).

Pl explain, why Pak men cut the throats of their grown-up girls for loving somebody outside their caste/clan?

Explain.

#362 by muqaddam

Ok. So that`s what the Talib is saying.

But what`s the other guy in the other photo saying?

C`mon ... say it ....

Taliban beating street-walkers with a stick.


Indian police beating female medical students with a stick.

`lol - man krishna you really show everyone that you are an idiot. Indians may thinkl that Muslims are dirty but everyone in the world thinks that about Hindus. I work in America and i have never met one gora who has anything nice to say about Hindus and theeor BO.``

Here comes another Paki tryin g to impress us with fairy tales about Gora friends...dude, we all know Paki social ives are limited to the mosque and pigging out at a Paki restaurant on Friday night.

Re #353

Is that Talib saying to that hapless girl `` beetch, this one is for not coming to my tent last night , and this one is to make sure that tonight you dont play truant``

#360 by VRV

Let`s continue on the Iran board. This here seems to be dead.

Re: # 359

Yep.

There`s a diff.

Indian girl is not caned for wearing a salwar kameez but protesting against the prohibitory orders. (BTW, I hate Indian police the most for still retaing the Master mentality in free India!)

Taliban is caning them - though women dressed like dead bodies draped in full - for coming outout male companion.

Pl see this:

What about cutting the throats of girls in Pakistan for loving somebody different from their own caste/tribe?

The reccent case is Hina Salim from Italy. Her throat was cut and she was buried in the backyard by her father and brother.

KyonZee? Any comments?

Re #358 by GT. Thanks.

Is there any one else to opine? Only GT has had the courage so far .

Please understand. All this is to prove a point. Nothing else.

Re: # 353 by zeemax:

``Is there a difference?``

No.

Re: # 356

Zee,


>>>>>AND ... We are not related. <<<

This is the basis for us to fight and I do enjoy fights........streets, chat or boardrooms. No, we are not related, we belong to two different worlds.......two different outlooks. Sure u r right!

If I fail my exams, I owe it to you. Bloody your posts are compelling to glue to his site......

Lets keep the fight going.......I dont need lard, though :-))

#349 by VRV

LoL ... VRV ... just as GT said, you are going through a baptism of fire .....

But you have potential .... good looking ? Huh ... I`m sure ....

AND ... We are not related. Regardless of what hamidm used to say about grandpa gopinath and all the BS, see how one can easily tell apart on a western street who is a hindian and who is a Pak.

Now, take my advice. You might fail your exams.

The ``quality`` of interacts has simply changed with time. I do not see more or less ``gaali-galoch``. The form might have changed. I also think that it is healthy for people to take out their frustrations, irritations etc.

On a different note. A photograph was put up by zeemax. Everyone felt disgusted with the poor villagers. Everyone assumed that they were disrespecting the dead body. Guys tell me something: How do you retrieve a body, that of a deer or that of a king, from thick bush? In a coffin? The villagers may not have been disrespecting the body at all, friend or enemy. If you want to blame anyone, blame rediff.com for trying to incite trouble.

Stop praising a man that doesn`t need praises. He used to receive 700 million rupees in royalities from oil and gas company every year. A sour relationship with the companies led to his death. India supported him full fledge and when he died, they condemed him. Hahaha! I would love to see their faces when we condemn Dawood ``bhai`` Ibrahim`s death, whevern that would be, just for a joke to see their reaction.

I would appreciate comments from our worthy interactors on #338.

Is there a difference?

If there is, what?

To me it seems the only difference is Taliban are beating (alleged) prostitutes, while police in Patna is beating aspiring female medical students. India is really shining?

For your convenience so you don`t have to go back and forth, I`ll reproduce it:

Taliban beating street-walkers with a stick.


Indian police beating female medical students with a stick.

dost-mittar..........no, i don`t think the judiciary will stand up on the big decisions. nor has it ever stood up. nor will it stand up in the future. however a portion of the judiciary does tend to stand up. about one-third of the supreme court resigned when musharraf asked for the pco. which is why i said it was half a success. not a full one. prevoiusly, the supreme court did overturn nawaz sharif`s removal also. and another chief justice took on nawaz sharif, until his own judges turned against him.........

something else i got from the horse`s mouth. the chief justice was going to overturn musharraf`s decision of the coup. he had full plans, but apprently hesitated and by the time he was ready, it was too late........

a better way to phrase it would be that the higher judiciary of pakistan did not turn out to be as big a disappointment as i had thought. barring martial laws etc., they do, apparently, take some decent and fair decisions, in day to day affairst. and people still have faith in them, to a great extent. which is why senior lawyers to pretty good business in pakistan. people will only pay a lawyer high prices, if they have faith in the judiciary. the figure i was given was that in 90% of the cases, they adjudicate fairly, while in 10% then may do some underhand stuff.........not bad i guess........

the lower sesssion level judiciary is apparently not too good........

there is only one group in pakistan with guts that i found: journalists. they really take on the establishment. and portray the view of the underdog. and this is one group that the military and civlian leaders tend to fear. in some cases, they have been tortured and killed also. according to what i found out, a journalist`s body was recently discovered. he was the first guy to report that it was the usa which had fired missiles and killed people in baujur(?) soon after he disappeared, and three months later was found dead. assumed killed by the pakistan govt. and/or us military........

the current supreme court`s decision in the steel mill case was quite historic. it led to an attempted vote of no-confidence against the prime minister.

interestingly the civil service - the most powerful day to day group - of pakistan is also very scared of the judiciary. this includes the police etc. which i consider a good sign. barring musharraf and his corps commanders, everyone else in power is quite intimidated by the superior judiciary, i noticed. which is probably also a good sign......

this is not to say that the judicial system is good. far from it. it is just better than other state institutions, like police, etc. and is probably the glue, along with a high economic growth rate, which is keeping the country stable..........

the one judiciary, which has totally lost its marbles is the military judiciary. it is a farce if i ever saw one. completely dictated to my the coas. this includes NAB, also. having said that, the civilian judiciary has apparently taken a stand against NAB and overturns most of their decisions. due to which the military, never sends NAB cases to the high courts. it keeps people in jail for years and then just releases them..........without letting their cases go up, immediately. this is how musharraf formed his whole pml(q) party. literally each and everyone is there, because of fear of being jailed by NAB.............and NAB is headed by a serving lt. gen.!

so musharraf is basically the head of the executive (in fact a one-man executive). he is the head of the judiciary, as the lower NAB courts are run by his lt. general. these courts can jail anyone, as a parallel system outside the normal judiciary. and he has the legislature under his thumb completely as they are scared of going to jail, under nab, if they don`t support him...............

the military has quite a few torture cells also. this was quite surprising and disheartening. torture is now becoming a norm in the army, and air force (don`t know about the navy). they torture their own personnel and civilians. every third politician i met said he had been tortured in some manner by the military. by every third, i literally mean every third!

and these tortures are like abu-ghuraib type tortures. beatings, ants, deisel fuel, shoving things up body parts etc. this is normal. both soldiers who had been punished by military courts and politicians mentioned it as if it was no big deal. ``so and so major picked me up and beat me.`` ``nab picked me up and locked me in a dungeon type place for three months, with no sulight and no bathroom.`` ``they shoved a rod into a colonel who had been court martialled.`` etc. and these were sitting mnas and even ex-ministers!

i think pakistanis need to stop complaining about abu-gharaib now. the amount of torture in pakistani military and civilian jails is so high, it is unbelievable. God knows how many people musharraf has himself ordered to be tortured in some capacity..........

as for JI, i don`t know what they would do in power. one would have to wait and see. but they are about the only political party, which is not a one-man show and has an institutional system internally..............

DM 343

“There is nothing wrong with the chowk guidelines (unless they have changed recently); it`s their implementation, or rather non-implementation that is the problem. FV had taken some steps in that direction but, with her departure, things are getting back to ``normal``.

Chowk’s interact guidelines are impotent words on display. Chowk has no interact policy in its “unflinching idealism” world, that includes gaali galoch, attacks on mothers, daughters, sisters, profane attacks on deep-seated religious beliefs, attacks on countries, culture, ethnicities, you name it. Nothing is sacred or respectful. One offensive post starts a vicious cycle and Chowk Staff has no clue how to control it (more likely, they don’t want to.) As a result, Chowk has been reduced to a hate-site.

Farzana did squat to control this problem. In fact, the “quality” of interacts noticeably deteriorated during her reign and this non-implementation of the so called Chowk’s interact guidelines has continued after her departure.

I don’t blame Zeemax for hurling turd at those Indian posters who have nothing to contribute other than spew hatred against Islam, Muslims, Pakistan, and Pakistanis. If you have noticed, first offense is almost always committed by Indians. Since this is free-for-all deal at Chowk, I hope Zeemax continues shoving it down those Indian posters throats.

Re: # 349

Pl read as

I can fight as well.


i/o

I can fights as well.


(Bad proof reading!).

Re: # 348

We need more of this kinda people. As u said team mentality takes over. Damn right.

I am sure I would take Zee for Mac breakfast and do more leg-pulling. No hard feelings, at the end of the day. Abuses are from both sides.

We dont do this gaali-PLUS-affection to a true Afgan, Persian or an Arab. These guys are our people but fell away from us BUT still, I feel like related to them.....we are all related.......but are living in different countries......

No sentiments.......I can fights as well.

GT..

That`s from his CV......not my words. BTW, I dont think seriously about these words....beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder.

I am good looking...I dont have this complex.....I am answering Zee about his comments... Thats all.

Thanks.

zeemax#345:

Let`s not mix things. My reference to Punjabis was wrt gaali-galoch, not hatred. One could even argue that the Punjabi hatred is like ``karhi ka ubaal``, once the gaali galoch is over, there are no hard feelings. I am in fact amazed even at chowk unplugged how Punjabis get over their past gaali-galoch and become bosom friends. If I am not mistaken you seem to get along fine now with people with whom you previously engaged in gaali-galoch.

As far hatred, again I do not agree with you. First of all, chowk is not a random sample of communities. I was in South India recently and nobody seems to be concerned about Pakistan or even Kashmir. Nor is there any Hindu-Muslim friction there. Chowk attracts a certain kind of Indian - one who is interested in Pakistan either in a positive or a negative way. And the adversarial nature of chowk ensures that sooner or later, most of us succumb to this ``team`` mentality. I have frequently mentioned how many Pakistanis started out as friendly towards India and Hindus and turned hostile over time; I have observed the same thing about Indians also.

Re: # 346 by VRV


``..... and fired a Rocket Launcher on the enemy bunker ....``

How do you fire a rocket launcher? I thought you fire rockets from a rocket launcher. In any case, why do`nt you relax. South Indians or whoever will not become ugly because someone in chowk says so. Actually, come to think about it you are quite lucky being initiated through fire by chowk professionals. It depends on how you take it. Long time back the same thing happened to a young kid called ylh. Today he goes by the nick manto.

Re: # 345

Zee,

Pl follow this link and see. You `d find people of all races & religions of Indian subcontinent who fought in Kargil. Dont mistake these heroes as Chinese, they are Indians. There are Aryans, Australoids, Mangoloids.....

http://indianarmy.nic.in/arotakheros.htm

What education teaches that Pakistanis are good looking and Indians (more so south Indians) are bad looking? Dont you need re-schooling for inculcation basic human values?

Bollywood had many South Indian actresses......Vaijayantimala, Waheeda Rehman, Hema malini, Jaya Prada, Sri Devi, Tabbu......

India had an advanced culture b4 anybody can think of covering their loins wlesewhere. Culture btw means Persian Muslim culture?


As for valour it was Maj. Saravanan who wrested Tiger Hill for India and he`s a south Indian!

This is his CV:

In the face of such heavy opposition Maj Saravanan displayed unparalleled courage, and with total disregard to his personal safety charged through the volley of bullets and fired a Rocket Launcher on the enemy bunker, killing two enemies on the spot. In the fierce fighting the officer sustained splinter injuries. Two more enemies who were hiding in the bunker opened fire from the top killing once NCO and injuring Maj Saravanan. Despite being injured and facing a heavy volley of fire, Maj Saravanan eliminated both of them but later succumbed to another burst on his head.

DM,

Now you`re talking about the ethnic divide. That`s a slippery path to pursue.

Let`s only talk about why these south-indians despise Pak/Islam more than the Indian Punjabis/Sikhs do? Is it because of geographical proximity, or inferiority complex due to physical appearance/poor culture etc or something else? After all, most of the bloodshed occured between Punjabis than anyone else (perhaps Bengal). So what is their problem?

zeemax:

My only compatriot on this board is bulleya and he is not abusive.

If you have to make a comparison, it should be between Punjabis and Non-Punjabis. Punjabis are more prone to gaali-galoch when provoked than others. However, there are stellar exceptions on both sides of the gaali-divide.

bulleya:

Since your analysis is based on personal research, I would not like to disagree. Your observations on economy are fully supported by news reports; indeed I could see evidence of it even three years ago. However, do you believe that the judiciary will show spine if asked to follow the orders or else? Remember, they yielded even to Nawaz and not just to the military.

JI may be disciplined but one wonders if it would remain so once it tastes power. In India, Jan Sangh with somewhat similar orientation to JI, was also quite disciplined until it tasted power. Now in its new avatar, it is perhaps as fractious as the Congress party. The only party in India which has shown any discipline even after tasting power is the CPI(M).



godot#328, zeemax:

There is nothing wrong with the chowk guidelines (unless they have changed recently); it`s their implementation, or rather non-implementation that is the problem. FV had taken some steps in that direction but, with her departure, things are getting back to ``normal``.

While women get beaten in India and Afghanista, sample what happens to women in the most enlightened of our neighbors. Never mind Saima Sarwar, Mukhtaran Mai, Shazia Khalid, Sonia Naz and countless others.

Pakistan`s moderates are beaten in public

Excerpts:

```Teach the bitch a lesson. Strip her in public.`` As one of the police officers told me, these were the orders issued by their bosses. The police beat the woman with batons in the full glare of the news media, tore her shirt off and, though they failed to take off her baggy trousers, certainly tried their best. The ritual public humiliation over, she and others - some bloodied - were dragged screaming and protesting to police vans and taken away to police stations.``

``This didn`t happen to some unknown student or impoverished villager. This happened to Asma Jahangir, the United Nations special rapporteur on freedom of religion and head of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, the country`s largest such nongovernmental group.``

``The public beating of Pakistan`s most high-profile human rights defenders highlights what most Pakistanis have known all along: ``Enlightened moderation`` is a hoax perpetrated by Musharraf for international consumption. What is known in Pakistan as the ``mullah-military alliance`` remains deeply rooted, and the Pakistani military and Musharraf continue to view ``moderate`` and ``liberal`` forces in politics and society as their principal adversaries.``

``The Bush administration, Musharraf`s chief backer, should realize that its friend in the war on terror came to power in a coup, continues to hold office without facing Pakistani voters, refuses to schedule a vote, and bans women from running in mixed-gender races.``

``Instead of allying himself with espousers of hate and intolerance, Musharraf should pursue a genuine path of enlightened moderation by telling the MMA and others that the days of treating women as second-class citizens are over.``

DM,

I take it as a battle of individuals and not of two communities.

If it is not a battle of communities, show me just `one` of your compatriots (excepting swarrier) currently on Chowk who is not a bigot abusing Pak/Islam in ever single post.

zeemax#333:

I have no problem in being labelled as Mutassibi Hindu or anything else. But for the sake of record, let me say that my disgust resulted more out of stuka`s posts than of anyone else`s, and stuka has as yet not embraced Islam to the best of my knowledge.

As far as who is winning this war of gaali-galoch, I take it as a battle of individuals and not of two communities, countries or religions. Even for individuals, my two-cents worth is that:

Iss khel kee reet yehi
Jo haara voh jeet gaya!

Re: # 337

bulleya sahib,
Thanks for the clarification, JI is possibly the best organized political parties in Pakistan which is attributable to their strong and proven processes. JI has also been extremely adroit in managing relationships with the establishment. Somehow or the other JI has always managed to fall on the right side of the Govt which has paid dividends and allowed their leadership to strengthen their porcesses. Starting 1970 when they sided with Yahya JI and was rewarded they have managed to avoid confrontation and persecution. Other nationalist parties have not been so beneficial as proven by the recent case of Bugti before that ANP, Mqm, Awami League and PPP. None of these parties have even been allowed to prosper with freedom or given govt support as was the case of JI.

I agree with u on the Mma (maulvis) filling any gaps, but there is another aspect which may happen and that is foreign intervention which leads o the final dissolution of the country as we have come to know of it post 1971.

But, everything said and done, there isn`t much difference between hindians and Taliban as far as beating women is concerned!

Except the difference as stated against each ....

Taliban beating street-walkers with a stick.


Hindians beating medical students with a stick.


Or is there a difference?

rf786.........your comment about mma is correct. i was actually refering to jamaat-i-islami, which is a member of mma. it is the most instituional political party in pakistan. the others like jui are heridatory.............mma itself will crack since it is multiple parties......however JI is quite disciplined in its ideology and processes.........

i am only telling you what was told to me by a few politicians. some of whom will have the highest positions in the country, if civilian govts. return. the general analysis was that the army has to go and then the political parties have to deliver........if they don`t this time around, then there will be chaos.......maybe the maulvis will come in to fill the vacuum politically, like they are doing in nearly every other muslim country..........

Re: # 335
bulleya sahib,

Very interesting.

With reference to the Mma, they have been in existence for the past 5yrs more out of neccessity than any thing else. To say they are the most disciplined and institutionalized single party maybe a little bit too early and more importantly they too have demonstrated stress points which can be exploited by establishment. Since establishment (Governing elite) need Mma for their political setup, these stress fractures are not being exploited to their fullest.

{The next ten years for Pakistan are very crucial. And it has nothing to do with India, or USA or secularism or religion, or the various other things that get discussed here day and night}

I will disagree with this thesis, having said that wud like to know your viewpoint.

thanks

dost-mittar/soysauce...............yes, my analyses probably have a lot more meat behind them now. The last six months have been quite educational. There is a close friend, who is very high up in the political circles of Pakistan. He is writing a book and asked me to assist. So for about three months I had a chance to meet and chat with the who’s who of Pakistani politics – basically the second tier below BB, NS etc. It has indeed been quite an experience. Many of my views have changed. While others have been strengthened further. Unfortunately, the negative changes outweigh the positive ones.

The next ten years for Pakistan are very crucial. And it has nothing to do with India, or USA or secularism or religion, or the various other things that get discussed here day and night……

Pakistan’s politics is decided by four individuals: Musharraf, BB, Nawaz and Altaf. There is absolutely no other institutional political set-up below them. Zero. It is their will and wish. Decisions are literally made by them through their secretaries, which decide the fate of 150 million people. You can add the Quran to that list as well, since religion is quite important in the decision making. The only group that has an institutional decision making and political process is the MMA. Like them or hate them, they are really the only disciplined, process-based political party in Pakistan, which has a policy, holds elections, does not change loyalties etc. (But they have other issues)……

There are two areas which are doing really well in Pakistan at the moment. And perhaps half of a third. Everything else has now been turned hollow. The economy is doing really well. No doubt about that. I have never seen it like this in my life. The private sector is booming. Pakistanis are returning from abroad and getting paid excellent salaries. Banking and telecom are booming beyond recognition. As is manufacturing. To give you an idea, a cell phone company added as many connections in one year as had been added by PTCL in the past 50! And the level of competence in the private sector is quite high.

The media is booming also. TV, Press, Radio etc. are as good as any I have seen anywhere in the world. Major channels with very objective content are appearing regularly. I was surprised at the courage and independence of the press. They truly represent the underdog and are not afraid to take on the govt. and the authorities. Probably the only institution to have so much guts……….

Surprisingly, the civilian judiciary is also relatively ok. They have, to some extent taken on the military. While 11 out of the 16 or judges of the Supreme Court accepted Musharraf’s PCO. There were five who resigned (interestingly the Punjabi judges tend to accept the Army, while those from smaller provinces tend to take a stand). The higher courts generally overturn the decisions of NAB. And the Supreme Court recently gave one of the most historic decisions in Pakistan in the steel mill case. Interestingly, I got the feeling that Pakistanis (including politicians) still have some faith in the higher judiciary (though not in the lower judiciary). Lawyers tend to be quite an independent group and do take stands……

Other than that, everyone is hollow. Basically it is running on Musharraf’s personal will and whim, with no institutional support, from the govt side. And BB’s and NS’s personal will and whim from the opposition side. Civil services and politicians and businessmen are corrupt beyond belief. While the military has fully institutionalized corruption (not within its own ranks, but within its influence in the civilian sector.

If Musharraf’s economic policies keep resulting in very high growth for the next decade or more, they may cater for hollowness of institutions. If they don’t then everything will come crashing down, with nothing to support it…………

At that time, the maulvis might take over…………..

The tragedy of Pakistan is not that it has had bad and corrupt leaderships. Perhaps India and other third world countries have similar ones. The tragedy is that the alternatives are equally bad and there is absolutely no mechanism to get from a bad leadership to a good one. Not even a theoretical mechanism, what to talk of a practical one............and as mentioned earlier, all of this has nothing to do with religious extremism or confrontations with India etc......it has everything to do with lack of domestic social and political development..........

Perhaps Bugti and Musharraf`s conflict falls into the above category. Musharraf is now, definitely a liability to Pakistan, in my opinion. However, his alternative, Bugti in this case, is also a liability........Both are by the way, amongst the most secular people in Pakistan.........The third option is the maulvis in Baluchistan.........and they are also a liability.............

Interesting two politicians that every politician I met spoke highly of, in terms of integrity.......Imran Khan and Mohd. Khan Junejo........Apparently, Junejo was the best politician Pakistan had after Jinnah, according to the PPP and PML people I met! Interestingly, the second tier of PPP and PML had quite low opinions about their own leaders - BB and Nawaz.........

One ray of hope is that I met some pretty decent people in the second tier (MNAs) of PPP and PML. Individuals with the right ideas and perhaps only marginally corrupt. Decent fellows. However, they say that Sharif and Bhutto family has so dominated their parties, and Army has so destroyed their parties that they dont see how they can do much..........

#332 by zeemax

LoL ... strange how ignorance never ends .... arrey Bhai Pak is anti-Taliban remember? What are you trying to prove by producing these photos? LoL .....!

Only the Paki Army is anti-Taliban and that too because Colin Powell`s phone call caused Mushy to wet his pants. Looking at you and some of the other Macacas, it is clear that Pakis still love the Taliban, but the Afghans treat you like sh!t, which is why that poor Paki ended up like Buz in a Buzkashi game.

But that B`Deshi/Macaca-boar pic really pinches you hindians, doesn`t it???????

You started off decently, then spoke in muted anger, and finally descended into abuse and filth, so guess who is the one riled up? LOL!

#330 by HP

Yes. Fully agreed. Whenever Paks think any hindian can be trusted, they are disappointed just as is obvious in case of DM.

Thing is that, the long held observation re ``Mutaessib hindu`` is absolutely correct. They`re all the same inside though superficially different on the outside in varying degrees.

When these hindians get bashed good and proper for a change, they invoke `Geneva Convention`?

My foot!

#319/320

LoL ... strange how ignorance never ends .... arrey Bhai Pak is anti-Taliban remember? What are you trying to prove by producing these photos? LoL .....!

But that B`Deshi/Macaca-boar pic really pinches you hindians, doesn`t it???????

#315 by hasanmahmood

You cannot mess with Muslims anywhere in the world.

Abay Mahmood (an apt name reminding us the famous Indian comedian who regaled us with his Mr. Bean-like antics), you Pakis got your butts handed on a platter every time you went to war with us, yet you have the gall to say this? If this is not ignorance then what is? Time you dropped those Paki textbooks and read some REAL history.

#326 by dost-mittar on August 31, 2006 5:45pm PT

Interesting! Just a few short months ago when every single abuse was hurled at Pakistanis, Religions, communities and racist comments were written with impunity, Dost Mittar was found smiling reading all those posts. In fact, he was himself contributing his two bit with at least five posts a day. Now that tables have turned, he is calling for Chowk Staff help...

Typical RSS charlatan!

Political reaction to bugti`s death.

Meri Nanaz e Janaza Parhai Gairon ne
Marey they jin ke liye we rahey wazoo kartey

God Bless

Re: # 55

Those who can rape the Islamic Constitution in the interest of the country can`t they perform the same operation against any body with the same purpose. But they are so serious about Hadood Laws! Ha ha ha...

DM 326

``Jinehein naaz hai chowk pur voh kahaan hain? kahaan hain? Kahaan hain?? Kahaan Hain??? ``

Why shouldn`t a decent person despise Chowk`s interact policy?

chowk staff:

Jinehein naaz hai chowk pur voh kahaan hain? kahaan hain? Kahaan hain?? Kahaan Hain???

``Meri duniya lut rahee tthee aur main khamosh ttha``

``... See our teachers tell us in psych classes that guys who have smaller ``johnson`s`` or are ugly and therefore can`t get love from anywhere are verbally hostile and rude in cyber-space and they are violent and abusive in real lives if they are physically capable...``

rotfl. and you want a prime example, check out the posts pf #322

Re: # 323

>>>Hasan -- just imagine where Musharraf and Pakisan`s prosperity would have been -- had 9/11 not happened.....that was the Manna for Musharraf from the heaven... <<<<

Hello Sir,

There is one story. A woman has resorted to postitution for fast bucks. She earned a lot in no time but she also got once-in-a-lifetime gift out of that practice.

What gift???????

AIDS!

Similarly Musharraf`s political prostitution/moral turpitude is giving him money but he`d also gets some gifts soon.

I leave it to your imagination what gifts Musharraf is going to get.

Re: # 280

``I guess you forget that when Nawaz was finally thrown off, Pakistan was considered a failed state.``(hasanmahmood)

Hasan -- just imagine where Musharraf and Pakisan`s prosperity would have been -- had 9/11 not happened.....that was the Manna for Musharraf from the heaven...

and do you think any civilian leader either Nawaz or Benazir -- would have done anything different under US ultimatum......except with some dignity -- because the Civis would have consulted the National Assembly and the the people thru their reps ......

....the rewards would have been even better because of the parliamentary leverage.....and lastly don`t tell me that the GHQ is not corrupt.....

Herono1,
I find your post #320 to be despicable. I have already expressed my views concerning the unfortunate dead Indian soldier. While we may not know the person or the reasons for his condition, it is sad enough that there are so-called human beings, such as the ones with guns surrounding the man and the one with the stick beating the women, who have the need to disrespect and humiliate the human body. Why must you use the sufferings of the victims and the brutality of the depraved ones to score any dubious points on Chowk? Please reconsider your action - I know that you are much better than that. Thanks.

the Indian has his clothes on

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Re: # 241
Umair, interesting analysis..
If you think back for a minute why Musharraf staged the coup, his job was in danger. It was not a selfless act of saving the country. It was to save his career and possibly his life. Viewed in this context, anyone threatening his hold on power leave alone his life, is liable to be punished and that`s hardly surprising.
While a representative government, popularly elected, is not an answer to all ills, it does have the effect of distributing power a little more broadly and mollifying various competing interests.
I am privy to some of the ugliness in the so-called democracy we have in india. We do have representative governments at the local, regional and national levels, but what we don`t have is a strict rule of law, something the white man has managed to invent, improve and instill. In india we have thugs, murderers and generally unsavory characters for politicians and so long as they are in charge rule of law is not possible. It is the desire for rule of law that brings in military rule as the military is seen as strict disciplinarians, enforcers and intolerant of civilian misdeeds but the military, as you have been finding out, has its own set of problems.

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