The Death of a Nawab

TODAY

``He said that soldiers had gone into the cave “to negotiate”.``

FOR MODERN DAY C0CK AND BULL STORY.

Pl go to this link : http://dawn.com/2006/08/30/top6.htm.

The outpouring of political& public sympathy within Pakistan and international condemnation (India, Afghanistan plus US` concern etc.) changed the story.

HOWEVER THIS WAS THE OFFICIAL VERSION ON SATURDAY NIGHT:

According to the sources, security forces started the operation in Bhambhoor area three days ago using heavy weapons and helicopter gunships. On Saturday, the sources said, more troops were inducted into the operation and helicopter gunships shelled the area throughout the day.

The sources said that helicopter gunships targeted the Chalgri area of Bhambhoor mountains and dropped troops who took action in the area. Armed militants of Marri and Bugti tribes resisted the troops and heavy fighting was reported for several hours.

“Nawab Bugti and many others were killed when helicopter gunships dropped bombs at their hideout,” the sources said, adding that troops had arrested over two dozen injured militants.


“Nawab Akbar Khan Bugti was killed in the operation along with some family members,” federal minister for information Mohammad

Ali Durrani confirmed to the media.

(LINK: http://dawn.com/2006/08/27/top1.htm)

sadna#135:

I do not know to what extent the system of political agents has broken down; even if it has completely broken down, it is probably a temporary consequence of the al qaeda operations there.

ijaz_gul#141:

``Further to my ilog and interact, there is a hypothesis that Pakistan can be easiest undone from within and its geography can be redrawn and Pakistan de Nuked.``

I do not generally read people`s ilogs. I would read yours but it has disappeared from the front page. As for the hypothesis that you have mentioned, how serious is it? I find it hard to believe that India, USA and Afghanistan would jointly undertake any enterprise and that it would remain secret; Indian intelligence agencies, especially, are a sieve and not known for their ability to keep secrets. And if there is a movement for Greater Balochistan, would it not involve Iranians; why would Soviets, Afghans or even Indians want to alienate Iranians?

As for Balochistan, do the Balochs have a majority there even if various tribes can join together? While I am not well-versed in the politics of that porovince, it seems that the demographis of the region have changed significantly in the last 3-4 decades. My impression is that the complaints of the Balochs up to now have been mostly concerned with economic exploitation and these issues could be resolved through negotiations. I do not know if the killing of Bugti has the potential of changing the nature of the movement. In this respect, I think that the stand of the opposition parties would be helpful to the interests of Pakistan as this would make it a fight of army versus people instead of Pakistan versus Balochistan.

one thing that make the paki insurgencies-political fights interesting is that they tend to be highly personality driven...there is apparently a lot of personal khunnas involved. almost all political forces in pakistan are personality driven. so it makes sense to ``take-out`` the person. so if the premise is baluch nationalism is not real, just a posture by the nawab, take him out, and the problem is resolved. bhutto, zia, nawaz, altaf..they can all resolve their issues honorably.

To Pakistani interactors,

I have a few questions, it would be very kind if someone could take out some time and let me know the answers. I would appreciate it very much.

1. Is it beneficial for all opposition parties in Pakistan to support the ongoing Baloch insurgency? What is the proportion of Baloch involvement in this insurgency, above 20%? (Please do use your own definition for `beneficial`).

2. Will opposition parties use the Baloch insurgency as a springboard for a wider movement against the army? If so, then will it be good for Pakistan? Will it be good for India? (Again please do use your own definition for `good` and `bad`).

3. Apart from gas, what sustains the economy of Balochistan? What is the general level of education there?

To all interactors:

What does it mean when one says that: ``The Baloch are tribals``? Is there a consensus on the meaning of ``tribals``? For example, are the basic tenents of organization the same for the Baloch and the Nagas?

Once again, thanks.

Re: # 162

GT sahib,

Lets c what we can do for u...

{1. Is it beneficial for all opposition parties in Pakistan to support the ongoing Baloch insurgency? What is the proportion of Baloch involvement in this insurgency, above 20%? (Please do use your own definition for `beneficial`).}

Beneficial is very subjective and relative term. If the purpose is to oust the sitting Govt, then of course answer is yes. Do they share Balocj concerns for provincial autonomy? Except for ANP, Mqm and some smaller nationalist parties there is no mainstream political party which includes Mma, PPP, PML etc who wud support their cause. Mainstream parties are all geared towards the federation (Centre) and do not want to see any change in the current setup. Afterall, thats where the money and power lies.

Baloch are 6% of Pakistan population (150mm), as for the insurgency its difficult to say cause these are all numbers provided by the Govt or state sponsored entities. It wud be safe to assume that a majority of Baloch ppl feel disenfranchised.

{2. Will opposition parties use the Baloch insurgency as a springboard for a wider movement against the army? If so, then will it be good for Pakistan? Will it be good for India? (Again please do use your own definition for `good` and `bad`).}

Yes, No, No. Yes because these lotas are looking for excuses to leverage their positions. No, if any of these opp parties (PPP, PML (n) and Mma) were to succeed, then Pakistan will be back to square one post 1999 ie where jihadist wud have their cake and eat it also as wud other corrupt bastards. No for India, cause then Manmohan jee wud have to take action against Pak nuclear and jihadist training camps. Bad for the region and economy.

{3. Apart from gas, what sustains the economy of Balochistan? What is the general level of education there?}

Gas, oil, metals (copper, lead etc) uranium, gold and most importantly Gwadar port which has the potential to blow away all competition because of its deep water facilities perfect for heavy duty tankers.

{What does it mean when one says that: ``The Baloch are tribals``? Is there a consensus on the meaning of ``tribals``? For example, are the basic tenents of organization the same for the Baloch and the Nagas?)

Tribals? traditionalists, men and women who take pride in their past and wud do anything to protect their way of living. Thats the positive spin, here`s the negative: obscurantists who oppose any form of education, modernization, urbanization or integration. Jury is still out as to where majority of Baloch stand.

Do not know much abt the Nagas, maybe u can share some thoughts.

Thanks

Re: # 169 by rf786 and #168 by HP

Thanks guys for giving me the time.

Nagas: They are from the Tibeto-Austric family and are spread over Assam, Manipur, Nagaland and Burma. There are various tribes: Aao, Angami, Kuki, Meitei etc. They were mostly animistic and strongly clannish with hunting as their main occupation. A bit of trade was carried out in the plains of Assam in places like Duliajan, Ma-kum, Jorhat etc. Were converted to Christianity by the American Baptists much before 1947. The Meiteis of Manipur were converted to Vaishnavism by monks during Chaitanya`s time. The tribes are proud and individuals cherish their freedom. Phizo organized them to fight the Indian state. Presently, the rebels are talking (and outside the Constitution). Nagas, like other N-E people, are looked down upon by many North Indians. Derogatory terms like `chaptas` or `gorkhas` are still used against them. On their part the Nagas are also not very fond of `Indians`.

As for me, I hate Naga food, but love their `rice beer` and company.

One thing - one great achievement of Bugti that is often forgotten is that he was one of the principal architects of Pakistan`s acquisition of Gwadar from Oman... whatever future benefit Pakistan gets out it will be thanks to him.

Secondly ... he was the last politician making an effort to keeping Mujeeb within the federation.

VRV,

Obviously... anyone who reinforces your bigotry and your inbuilt biases without much historical backing may I add is going to seem to you like heaven sent.

But pray tell piyaray bhai... if there is a South Asia ... can`t there be a South Asian history? And if it is all ``Indian`` History (though that name owes it very existence to Pakistan`s main river) ... then what would you call the histories of Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bhuttan, Maldives and indeed Burma/Myanmar?

The problem with you is an intolerance. Only that which you think or have imagined to be right is right to the exclusion of everything else.

Re: # 159

Manto,

The msg was meant for her. No probs.

I`d like to spar with you as well but I am in the middle of some assignments (Uni) now. Let me be brief, though.

1. Accuation that I being a bigot. This has no basis.

2. History of India and Pakistan is not the history of South Asia (u need Burma, Afghanistan added to SAARC countries). BTW, there is no coomon history for all.

3. South Asia do not have a common history but British India do i.e India+Pak+Bangla.

4. You keep saying that Pakistan was created for South Asian muslims. NOPE. It was for Indian Muslims. Indian Muslims meant, muslims from Bihar, UP or Bengal & other provinces PLUS Muslims in Punjab, Sindh, Balochistan & NWFP as well. If u say about South Aisna Muslims, then that`s a lie. That rounds up the subject.

5. I am intolenet as a person is a percetion, not a reality. Being born and brought up as an Indian makes me tolerant towards other faiths.

All other soap you added need no reply. I would join you after 3 weeks. Sorry if I cudn`t do it more now. Have a nice time.

Tata.

P.S: I am really proud of this gal. She`s giving you good repartees with good historical quotes & backing. Her understanding is bolstered by the works of Bipin Chandra, RS Sharma, Romila Thapar, Sumit Sarkar, I guess (the way she approaches the subject makes me think like that). She is a gem. Harish gives you masala replies at a different plane but Sadna`s replies are academic.

#157 by muqaddam

Pakistan is facing a not-so-friendly regime in Afghanistan which despises Pakistan and a now a revolution brewing in Pak occupied Baluchistan, maybe it would be a prudent strategy for the Pakistanis to try and save Baluchistan from formal secession rather than attempting to secure Kashmir which in any case is an unattainable goal.

Pakis have the habit of underestimating their opponents. They did this in 1947-48, `65, `71, and `99, and we all know the result. They underestimated the fury of the Bengalis in `71 and tried military force to suppress the rebellion, but ended up losing Bangladesh. In this case, they perhaps think the Balochis won`t go that far (or rather do not have the means to go the distance) and that it is only a matter of time before India caves in on Kashmir. In both cases, they couldn`t be more wrong.

Pakistan is facing a not-so-friendly regime in Afghanistan which despises Pakistan and a now a revolution brewing in Pak occupied Baluchistan, maybe it would be a prudent strategy for the Pakistanis to try and save Baluchistan from formal secession rather than attempting to secure Kashmir which in any case is an unattainable goal.

HP,
Youe points are well taken but please consider the following.
1. Expediency
2. Role of Outside support
3. Lack of opportunities for Civil Society to Develope
Cheerios

#153 by ahmer23

Ohoo aap samjhaayy naheen naa bahiii..wohh goaaroa(whities) jo hein naa woh iss liyya nahii zyada poochaatt kareinn hein aap logoon sayy kyonkayy bhayya badboo bohatt hottii hay... samjhayy naa.

Arey Ahmer mian, please try something new. These insults are now getting rather stale and ridiculous. No matter what, an average Indian will continue to command more respect than you Pakis do. Being derogatory perhaps comes naturally to you, but you should ask yourself what is it that has led the world to treat Pakis like dirt.

#151 by ahmer23

Hareesh bhaii bilkul maza nahii aaya, very weak i must say. Just so you know Good looks do come quite handy just take my word for it, hamarayy yahan urdu mein kahawat hotti hay ``Lomaarii ko angoor khatayy hii lagtayy hein``.

Mazaa kahan aayega Ahmer bhai, saara mazaa to kharaab kar diya na stip search ki yaad dilaake...khair angur to khatte hi lagenge aap logon ko kyonki kisi aur mulk ke logon ko is tarah ki beizzati to hoti nahin hain na?

On a serious note please don`t attempt to include indian muslims in ``WE INDIANS``, if there was such a thing your biggoted sardar wallab bhai patel wouldnt have killed 100,000 of em in one day in your own city while the hindoo population either stood idly or actually participated in the massacre and then again recently in Gurat. Indian muslims are stuck in India because of the back-stabbing and lying of opportunists who left them high n dry but thats another debate for another time.

The day you remove the declaration in the passport application requiring every Paki going abroad to declare that he/she doesn`t consider Ahmadis to be Muslims, only that day are you qualified to talk about the problems of minorities. Till then, go back to being proud of your skin color.

Re: # 152

``Mazaa kahan aayega Ahmer bhai, saara mazaa to kharaab kar diya na stip search ki yaad dilaake...khair angur to khatte hi lagenge aap logon ko kyonki kisi aur mulk ke logon ko is tarah ki beizzati to hoti nahin hain na?``

Ohoo aap samjhaayy naheen naa bahiii..wohh goaaroa(whities) jo hein naa woh iss liyya nahii zyada poochaatt kareinn hein aap logoon sayy kyonkayy bhayya badboo bohatt hottii hay... samjhayy naa. And i think u r giving whities a little more credit than they deserve, they cudnt tell a diferenece between harish and haris if there life was dependent on it. Correct me if i am wrong it wasnt pakistanis who recently got arrested in holland was it. But again the real reason behind them not searching indians thoroughly is that ``Body Odor``
epidemic you al got goin on.

i must give u credit for one thing however, you said ``kyonki kisi aur mulk ke logon ko is tarah ki beizzati to hoti nahin hain na`` yeah ``beizzati`` nayy dill khush kardiya, mein ``bayijjati`` expect kar raha tha, magar khushi throii hii dayr kii rahii ``kyonki??`` harsihooaa kyonkayy hotta hayy kyonkayy, chaloo jaoo maaff kiya..

#149 by ahmek23

Aray Hareeesh..... nakoo na bawa..kaiiiieee koo garmii khatayy naa...kaali soratiya orr kalii hojayegii naa bawaaaaa...

Aray Ahmek mian, this is what I meant by casteism; Indians rarely comment on Pakis` looks, but you can`t do without commenting on a person`s looks. Of what use are the good looks when we as Indians (Indian Muslims included) are welcomed with open arms everywhere we go, while you have to endure humiliating strip searches and are promptly labeled as terrorists?

Take the picture off cause sometimes when we come on chowk after having beef biryani or what have you and after dinner your picture and beef just doesnt agree with each other, you know what i m sayin beautiful.

Well sure..I`m sure you`d love beefy bodies like that of Inzamam or Fazloo`s...to each his own.