The Death of a Nawab

zeemax:

My only compatriot on this board is bulleya and he is not abusive.

If you have to make a comparison, it should be between Punjabis and Non-Punjabis. Punjabis are more prone to gaali-galoch when provoked than others. However, there are stellar exceptions on both sides of the gaali-divide.

bulleya:

Since your analysis is based on personal research, I would not like to disagree. Your observations on economy are fully supported by news reports; indeed I could see evidence of it even three years ago. However, do you believe that the judiciary will show spine if asked to follow the orders or else? Remember, they yielded even to Nawaz and not just to the military.

JI may be disciplined but one wonders if it would remain so once it tastes power. In India, Jan Sangh with somewhat similar orientation to JI, was also quite disciplined until it tasted power. Now in its new avatar, it is perhaps as fractious as the Congress party. The only party in India which has shown any discipline even after tasting power is the CPI(M).



godot#328, zeemax:

There is nothing wrong with the chowk guidelines (unless they have changed recently); it`s their implementation, or rather non-implementation that is the problem. FV had taken some steps in that direction but, with her departure, things are getting back to ``normal``.

While women get beaten in India and Afghanista, sample what happens to women in the most enlightened of our neighbors. Never mind Saima Sarwar, Mukhtaran Mai, Shazia Khalid, Sonia Naz and countless others.

Pakistan`s moderates are beaten in public

Excerpts:

```Teach the bitch a lesson. Strip her in public.`` As one of the police officers told me, these were the orders issued by their bosses. The police beat the woman with batons in the full glare of the news media, tore her shirt off and, though they failed to take off her baggy trousers, certainly tried their best. The ritual public humiliation over, she and others - some bloodied - were dragged screaming and protesting to police vans and taken away to police stations.``

``This didn`t happen to some unknown student or impoverished villager. This happened to Asma Jahangir, the United Nations special rapporteur on freedom of religion and head of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, the country`s largest such nongovernmental group.``

``The public beating of Pakistan`s most high-profile human rights defenders highlights what most Pakistanis have known all along: ``Enlightened moderation`` is a hoax perpetrated by Musharraf for international consumption. What is known in Pakistan as the ``mullah-military alliance`` remains deeply rooted, and the Pakistani military and Musharraf continue to view ``moderate`` and ``liberal`` forces in politics and society as their principal adversaries.``

``The Bush administration, Musharraf`s chief backer, should realize that its friend in the war on terror came to power in a coup, continues to hold office without facing Pakistani voters, refuses to schedule a vote, and bans women from running in mixed-gender races.``

``Instead of allying himself with espousers of hate and intolerance, Musharraf should pursue a genuine path of enlightened moderation by telling the MMA and others that the days of treating women as second-class citizens are over.``

DM,

I take it as a battle of individuals and not of two communities.

If it is not a battle of communities, show me just `one` of your compatriots (excepting swarrier) currently on Chowk who is not a bigot abusing Pak/Islam in ever single post.

zeemax#333:

I have no problem in being labelled as Mutassibi Hindu or anything else. But for the sake of record, let me say that my disgust resulted more out of stuka`s posts than of anyone else`s, and stuka has as yet not embraced Islam to the best of my knowledge.

As far as who is winning this war of gaali-galoch, I take it as a battle of individuals and not of two communities, countries or religions. Even for individuals, my two-cents worth is that:

Iss khel kee reet yehi
Jo haara voh jeet gaya!

But, everything said and done, there isn`t much difference between hindians and Taliban as far as beating women is concerned!

Except the difference as stated against each ....

Taliban beating street-walkers with a stick.


Hindians beating medical students with a stick.


Or is there a difference?

rf786.........your comment about mma is correct. i was actually refering to jamaat-i-islami, which is a member of mma. it is the most instituional political party in pakistan. the others like jui are heridatory.............mma itself will crack since it is multiple parties......however JI is quite disciplined in its ideology and processes.........

i am only telling you what was told to me by a few politicians. some of whom will have the highest positions in the country, if civilian govts. return. the general analysis was that the army has to go and then the political parties have to deliver........if they don`t this time around, then there will be chaos.......maybe the maulvis will come in to fill the vacuum politically, like they are doing in nearly every other muslim country..........

Re: # 337

bulleya sahib,
Thanks for the clarification, JI is possibly the best organized political parties in Pakistan which is attributable to their strong and proven processes. JI has also been extremely adroit in managing relationships with the establishment. Somehow or the other JI has always managed to fall on the right side of the Govt which has paid dividends and allowed their leadership to strengthen their porcesses. Starting 1970 when they sided with Yahya JI and was rewarded they have managed to avoid confrontation and persecution. Other nationalist parties have not been so beneficial as proven by the recent case of Bugti before that ANP, Mqm, Awami League and PPP. None of these parties have even been allowed to prosper with freedom or given govt support as was the case of JI.

I agree with u on the Mma (maulvis) filling any gaps, but there is another aspect which may happen and that is foreign intervention which leads o the final dissolution of the country as we have come to know of it post 1971.

dost-mittar/soysauce...............yes, my analyses probably have a lot more meat behind them now. The last six months have been quite educational. There is a close friend, who is very high up in the political circles of Pakistan. He is writing a book and asked me to assist. So for about three months I had a chance to meet and chat with the who’s who of Pakistani politics – basically the second tier below BB, NS etc. It has indeed been quite an experience. Many of my views have changed. While others have been strengthened further. Unfortunately, the negative changes outweigh the positive ones.

The next ten years for Pakistan are very crucial. And it has nothing to do with India, or USA or secularism or religion, or the various other things that get discussed here day and night……

Pakistan’s politics is decided by four individuals: Musharraf, BB, Nawaz and Altaf. There is absolutely no other institutional political set-up below them. Zero. It is their will and wish. Decisions are literally made by them through their secretaries, which decide the fate of 150 million people. You can add the Quran to that list as well, since religion is quite important in the decision making. The only group that has an institutional decision making and political process is the MMA. Like them or hate them, they are really the only disciplined, process-based political party in Pakistan, which has a policy, holds elections, does not change loyalties etc. (But they have other issues)……

There are two areas which are doing really well in Pakistan at the moment. And perhaps half of a third. Everything else has now been turned hollow. The economy is doing really well. No doubt about that. I have never seen it like this in my life. The private sector is booming. Pakistanis are returning from abroad and getting paid excellent salaries. Banking and telecom are booming beyond recognition. As is manufacturing. To give you an idea, a cell phone company added as many connections in one year as had been added by PTCL in the past 50! And the level of competence in the private sector is quite high.

The media is booming also. TV, Press, Radio etc. are as good as any I have seen anywhere in the world. Major channels with very objective content are appearing regularly. I was surprised at the courage and independence of the press. They truly represent the underdog and are not afraid to take on the govt. and the authorities. Probably the only institution to have so much guts……….

Surprisingly, the civilian judiciary is also relatively ok. They have, to some extent taken on the military. While 11 out of the 16 or judges of the Supreme Court accepted Musharraf’s PCO. There were five who resigned (interestingly the Punjabi judges tend to accept the Army, while those from smaller provinces tend to take a stand). The higher courts generally overturn the decisions of NAB. And the Supreme Court recently gave one of the most historic decisions in Pakistan in the steel mill case. Interestingly, I got the feeling that Pakistanis (including politicians) still have some faith in the higher judiciary (though not in the lower judiciary). Lawyers tend to be quite an independent group and do take stands……

Other than that, everyone is hollow. Basically it is running on Musharraf’s personal will and whim, with no institutional support, from the govt side. And BB’s and NS’s personal will and whim from the opposition side. Civil services and politicians and businessmen are corrupt beyond belief. While the military has fully institutionalized corruption (not within its own ranks, but within its influence in the civilian sector.

If Musharraf’s economic policies keep resulting in very high growth for the next decade or more, they may cater for hollowness of institutions. If they don’t then everything will come crashing down, with nothing to support it…………

At that time, the maulvis might take over…………..

The tragedy of Pakistan is not that it has had bad and corrupt leaderships. Perhaps India and other third world countries have similar ones. The tragedy is that the alternatives are equally bad and there is absolutely no mechanism to get from a bad leadership to a good one. Not even a theoretical mechanism, what to talk of a practical one............and as mentioned earlier, all of this has nothing to do with religious extremism or confrontations with India etc......it has everything to do with lack of domestic social and political development..........

Perhaps Bugti and Musharraf`s conflict falls into the above category. Musharraf is now, definitely a liability to Pakistan, in my opinion. However, his alternative, Bugti in this case, is also a liability........Both are by the way, amongst the most secular people in Pakistan.........The third option is the maulvis in Baluchistan.........and they are also a liability.............

Interesting two politicians that every politician I met spoke highly of, in terms of integrity.......Imran Khan and Mohd. Khan Junejo........Apparently, Junejo was the best politician Pakistan had after Jinnah, according to the PPP and PML people I met! Interestingly, the second tier of PPP and PML had quite low opinions about their own leaders - BB and Nawaz.........

One ray of hope is that I met some pretty decent people in the second tier (MNAs) of PPP and PML. Individuals with the right ideas and perhaps only marginally corrupt. Decent fellows. However, they say that Sharif and Bhutto family has so dominated their parties, and Army has so destroyed their parties that they dont see how they can do much..........

Re: # 335
bulleya sahib,

Very interesting.

With reference to the Mma, they have been in existence for the past 5yrs more out of neccessity than any thing else. To say they are the most disciplined and institutionalized single party maybe a little bit too early and more importantly they too have demonstrated stress points which can be exploited by establishment. Since establishment (Governing elite) need Mma for their political setup, these stress fractures are not being exploited to their fullest.

{The next ten years for Pakistan are very crucial. And it has nothing to do with India, or USA or secularism or religion, or the various other things that get discussed here day and night}

I will disagree with this thesis, having said that wud like to know your viewpoint.

thanks

#332 by zeemax

LoL ... strange how ignorance never ends .... arrey Bhai Pak is anti-Taliban remember? What are you trying to prove by producing these photos? LoL .....!

Only the Paki Army is anti-Taliban and that too because Colin Powell`s phone call caused Mushy to wet his pants. Looking at you and some of the other Macacas, it is clear that Pakis still love the Taliban, but the Afghans treat you like sh!t, which is why that poor Paki ended up like Buz in a Buzkashi game.

But that B`Deshi/Macaca-boar pic really pinches you hindians, doesn`t it???????

You started off decently, then spoke in muted anger, and finally descended into abuse and filth, so guess who is the one riled up? LOL!

#330 by HP

Yes. Fully agreed. Whenever Paks think any hindian can be trusted, they are disappointed just as is obvious in case of DM.

Thing is that, the long held observation re ``Mutaessib hindu`` is absolutely correct. They`re all the same inside though superficially different on the outside in varying degrees.

When these hindians get bashed good and proper for a change, they invoke `Geneva Convention`?

My foot!

#319/320

LoL ... strange how ignorance never ends .... arrey Bhai Pak is anti-Taliban remember? What are you trying to prove by producing these photos? LoL .....!

But that B`Deshi/Macaca-boar pic really pinches you hindians, doesn`t it???????

#315 by hasanmahmood

You cannot mess with Muslims anywhere in the world.

Abay Mahmood (an apt name reminding us the famous Indian comedian who regaled us with his Mr. Bean-like antics), you Pakis got your butts handed on a platter every time you went to war with us, yet you have the gall to say this? If this is not ignorance then what is? Time you dropped those Paki textbooks and read some REAL history.

#326 by dost-mittar on August 31, 2006 5:45pm PT

Interesting! Just a few short months ago when every single abuse was hurled at Pakistanis, Religions, communities and racist comments were written with impunity, Dost Mittar was found smiling reading all those posts. In fact, he was himself contributing his two bit with at least five posts a day. Now that tables have turned, he is calling for Chowk Staff help...

Typical RSS charlatan!

Political reaction to bugti`s death.

Meri Nanaz e Janaza Parhai Gairon ne
Marey they jin ke liye we rahey wazoo kartey

God Bless