Remembering a great Pakistani: Sir Zafrullah Khan

#422 by Yasser

Who- please inform us is this ``Ghulam Nabi``... but for my information are you suggesting that Ahmadis too have to declare Mirza Ghulam Ahmad imposter- because they don`t... and most Ahmadis have passports given that they belong to the affluent class unlike Indian Muslims.

So you are OKAY with Muslims humiliating your prophet everytime they sign the passport declaration or applying for a National identity card? Then you are even more devoid of self-respect than I thought. But you had a rather quickfix solution: changing your religion. Turncoats such as you are a blot on the face of the Earth.

Between 3000 to 4000 people were burnt down for their faith in Gujurat- where are the convicts there?

First, get your facts right and then argue. Exaggeration perhaps comes naturally to you, but the fact is that around 2000-odd people were killed and quite a few of them were Hindus. If you still think you can get away with peddling lies with me, I`m sorry to say you are a very slow learner. There are quite a few accused undergoing trial, but Modi needs to be put on trial for his laxity. Unfortunately that doesn`t seem likely.

... Graham Staines was burnt down by a mob... (are you telling the entire mob is behind bars)... the incidents of violence against religious, ethnic and caste minorities are numerous and all you can do is produce some incident from rural Punjab?

You asked me to produce evidence that Ahmadis are being lynched and I did just that. Are you saying the Ahmadis in rural Punjab are not Ahmadi enough? Wah re bhai wah! You are outdoing Jinnah, at least the man believed that all Muslims are one.

And pray tell us, how many military personnel were convicted for the atrocities committed in Bangladesh? 3 million Bengalis were massacred and not one officer convicted? At least the man who incited Graham Staines and his accomplices (I think 7 of them) have been sentenced. Don`t you think its a much better track record than yours?

Based on The News... the Supreme Court of Pakistan, the same SC that has on its bench a Hindu, took Suo motu notice of forced conversions... and the top echelons of the government took serious notice of it. So your point is what exactly?

The point dear Yasser is, that your tall claims of being tolerant of minorities despite being a theocratic state flies in the face of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

You ask why a confederation if India was an unnatural unit... Because.. partitioning it the way Congress forced the British to... would lead to violence and everyone- except Nehru and Gandhi- could see that partition of Punjab and Bengal would lead to terrific violence.... which is why despite the demand... League bent over backwards to accomodate the Congress. The subcontinent was always a sub-continent- a land mass of many geographical zones, peoples, languages, religions and ethnicities... having a confederation of different political states was a good idea...

Oh so after unleashing the Frankenstein of communalism, the Muslim League was actually trying to pull the genie back into the bottle? And the guy who gave the call to Direct Action was actually trying to avoid violence? Rather noble of him, isn`t it?

Admittedly I am totally devoid of such excellent sense of humor.

Thanks for the admission, but it would have saved you much heartburn if you had admitted that earlier.

Dear VRV,

I can discuss any of the subjects that you`ve mentioned - don`t you worry. I can also apprise you on the latest research in the string theory at Fermilabs... but what is the point?
You haven`t gotten beyond the simple issue that Earth is actually round and not flat?
I haven`t traded any personal insults. He admitted that being without an argument he chose to abuse my family.

And what religious fanaticism are you talking of... Gandhi was the religious fanatic not Jinnah- the one man hailed in the history of South Asia as the best ambassador of Hindu Muslim unity- even Margaret Bourke White- Harish mian loves to quote her- declares that Jinnah was completely unbiased.... and Gandhi`s caste system is not the only problem. There are several other issues... Gandhi was a racist bigot.

So I am afraid there is no quantum physics in what Harish mian says... mocking a poor Pakistani motor mechanic for the crime of earning a living for his family ... is nothing to write home about.

Manto,

Can u discuss a subject like plate-tectonics or quantum physics.....an alien subject with the same elan as u do history? You cant.

Harish was doing what is quantum physics to you. We must appreciate that. If u both trade personal insults.......well, it`s all up to you.

Harish,

He`s a propaganda artiste....he doesnt believe in facts.....what Gandhi was in Durban was what he was NOT later in India. If Gandhi`s views on caste system are anathema then Jinnah`s religious fanaticism is equally deplorable. Manto doesnt know that Gandhi`s family had matrimonial alliance with Rajagopalachari - an inter-caste alliance. He also tried to undo the caste arrogance of some of his followers by forcing the high-caste Brahmins to clean toilets.

Gandhi said many controversial things for eg:

If cow-slaughter is to banned in India on the ruse that it`s anti-Hindu then Pakistan can ban idol worship as it`s againt Islam (difficult to beilieve that Gandhi said this; I read this in one of the old issues of now-defunct monthly `Mirror` at Asiatic Society, Bombay library).

Manto quotes only what suits his arguments of a unifocul, monocultural Pakistan of Jinnah`s creation i.e Frankenstein`s monster.

To tell u the truth: I enjoy both of your arguments! Keep going.

Dear Harish mian,

I still prefer the hardworking Pakistani motor mechanic you mocked to an IITian Call centre worker like you... And no one is begging Indians to train Pakistani call centres... ever hear of Zia Chishti? No you must not have... but he was amongst the 30 top people of the People Magazine... his business model is something that Indians have been trying to emulate. You`ve been trying to prove something to me for many years now... but always end up whining like a cry baby... which is an insult to cry babies I must add.

I suppose that bubble like feel has become all but apparent to you...

#423 by Mantolives

If this is what ``IIT`` produces... third rate call centre workers... then I am afraid there is nothing to worry about on that count.

And the fox thought the grapes were sour! You guys are begging Indians to train Paki call center employees, if you think they`re third rate, then what does that tell about you?

#421 by VRV

Why argue with Manto?

Just to burst the bubble that he lives in. Someone`s got to show him that he doesn`t really belong to where he thinks he does.

VRV...

Yaar I am the one who is saying that there is nothing embarrassing about being a motor mechanic.

Harish mian was posting the picture of the hardworking Pakistani as some sort of an example of disgrace.. there is absolutely no disgrace in being a hardworking motor mechanic... shame on you and harish who think so.

If this is what ``IIT`` produces... third rate call centre workers... then I am afraid there is nothing to worry about on that count.

Harish mian,

1. Yes I do want you to copy and paste these posts where I have abused you in any terms close to your abuse. Please review your 371-372 for reference on the standards set by you.

2. Who- please inform us is this ``Ghulam Nabi``... but for my information are you suggesting that Ahmadis too have to declare Mirza Ghulam Ahmad imposter- because they don`t... and most Ahmadis have passports given that they belong to the affluent class unlike Indian Muslims.

3. Between 3000 to 4000 people were burnt down for their faith in Gujurat- where are the convicts there?... Graham Staines was burnt down by a mob... (are you telling the entire mob is behind bars)... the incidents of violence against religious, ethnic and caste minorities are numerous and all you can do is produce some incident from rural Punjab? And forget religion... in India people get burnt for celebrating Valentines Day.... what does that tell you?

4. Based on The News... the Supreme Court of Pakistan, the same SC that has on its bench a Hindu, took Suo motu notice of forced conversions... and the top echelons of the government took serious notice of it. So your point is what exactly? Is this the only stick you have to beat us with?

5. That anyone has to be your imagination because I have merely expressed my point of view... you are the one who has declared several times that you want me to shut up and that is why you are posting... so again your abuse is pointless.

6. You ask why a confederation if India was an unnatural unit... Because.. partitioning it the way Congress forced the British to... would lead to violence and everyone- except Nehru and Gandhi- could see that partition of Punjab and Bengal would lead to terrific violence.... which is why despite the demand... League bent over backwards to accomodate the Congress. The subcontinent was always a sub-continent- a land mass of many geographical zones, peoples, languages, religions and ethnicities... having a confederation of different political states was a good idea...


7. Apparently putting your nickname in bold is to you sense of humor. Admittedly I am totally devoid of such excellent sense of humor.

Harish, I think u r an IITian. Why argue with Manto?

Dear Manto, being a motor mechanic is not a humiliating thing? Was it? Did ur education teach u that there`s no dignity of labour? Something wrong with ur world-view, really!

We come from the part of the world where a bus passenger and airline passenger are treated diffrently. We are miles to go on this front.....this class-mentality....vey bad.

#419 by Mantolives

Once again such open display of dishonesty isn`t going to get you any where. It was your own abuse that called your family background into question. Every single one of your post is abusive- which according to you is an indication of a frustrated mind and a loser. So essentially you`ve brought up both your family background and your status as a loser ... all by yourself.

Aww Yasser, the charlatan that you are, if you think by accusing others of dishonesty you can slinker away, you`re mistaken. Would you want to go back and look at your posts or do you want me to cut and paste your post that started it all?

As for my community... their per capita income and 100% literacy rates speak for themselves. Besides- declaring oneself a Muslim is hardly an issue.. most Ahmadis declare themselves Muslims without much repercussion

As always, you are a master at twisting facts, but is it not true that to get a passport in Pakistan, you are required to sign a declaration that you believe that Ghulam Nabi (the Qadiani prophet) is an imposter? When an Ahmadi is forced to negate the very basic tenet of his faith, of what use is 100% literacy rate and a high per capita income? You are still a second-class citizen who cannot practise or profess your faith freely, isn`t it?

As for the Graham Staines case, the murderers are cooling their heels in jail. Unlike in Pakistan where Bishop John Jospeh had to immolate himself to protest the injustice to Christians (yet none of those who perpetrate acts of violence against minorities are arrested, let alone sentenced) and even a celebrity like Yousuf Youhana had to convert.

- please produce a single case of ``lynching`` ... It is certainly not like declaring oneself a Catholic Priest in India... and getting burned down along with your family ... as in the case of Graham Staines or declaring yourself a Muslim and being burnt to death for it.

Sure..I`m at your service. Here is an instance from www.persecution.org (http://www.thepersecution.org/dl/2002/newsreport_2002.pdf#search=%22lynch%2Bahmadi%22):

On November 11, 2000 a violent mob led by mullahs attacked the Ahmadiyya mosque at Takht Hazara, district Sargodha in the Punjab province. The attacking fanatics, killed five of the Ahmadis present there, damaged various fittings and equipment of the mosque, and then set the place of worship on fire.

The incident was precipitated by a mullah, Athar Shah who was posted there by ``The Association for the Protection of Finality of Prophethood,`` a fundamentalist organization, with the main object to foment sectarian hatred and trouble against Ahmadis of the village. He formed a gang, damaged Ahmadis` graves, put up anti-Ahmadiyya posters and boards in streets, delivered slanderous speeches and took out
processions to cause great communal tension.

On the day of the incident he led his zealots to the Ahmadiyya mosque, and hurled insults at Ahmadi respected leaders. This violation developed into a major attack by a large mob against Ahmadis who were considerably less in numbers and were unable to defend not only their mosque but also their persons. The lynch mob murdered five of them including their local president and a youth 14 years old. They hit the faces of their victims repeatedly with their axes and even cut their throats.

And yes, Pakis being the peaceful lot, don`t kill their minorities, they merely kidnap them, convert them, and then marry them off to Muslims. The treatment meted out to Hindu girls is there for everyone to see.

Conversions: a source of concern

Excerpt:

``He says that at 11 p.m., December 22, four armed men barged into their room. One of them was Malo`s neighbour, Akbar. They picked up Mashu, bundled her into the waiting car. ``She was taken to Pir Ayub Jan Sarhandi`s village in Somarho tehsil.`` There Mashu became Mariam and was married to Akbar.``

As for Iraq -saddam hussain example.. please recall that only you have the habit of declaring victory every second post and then falling back in your cycles of abuse and hate.

Well, anyone can go back to your posts and see that the pattern described above is exactly what you follow, so let me not waste anymore time responding to this BS.

Jinnah was trying to create a confederation of independent states in India. The Pakistan idea did not equal partition or a complete separation... which even it was supposed to happen would have happened through a constitutional framework ... and without the blood letting.

And pray tell us why? If the empire the British were vacating was unnatural according to you, why create another which was equally unnatural?

Keep up the brilliant display of wit that you`ve continued with signing your name in bold ... amalgmated as it is in my name... ofcourse.. this takes us back to your honest statement that a ``loser resorts to abuse when at loss of an argument``.

It breaks my heart to say this, but dear Yasser, humor and sarcasm are just not your cup of tea, so no matter how hard to try to insult others, you end up getting insulted even more.

Dear Harish Pai,

Once again such open display of dishonesty isn`t going to get you any where. It was your own abuse that called your family background into question. Every single one of your post is abusive- which according to you is an indication of a frustrated mind and a loser. So essentially you`ve brought up both your family background and your status as a loser ... all by yourself.

As for my community... their per capita income and 100% literacy rates speak for themselves. Besides- declaring oneself a Muslim is hardly an issue.. most Ahmadis declare themselves Muslims without much repercussion- please produce a single case of ``lynching`` ... It is certainly not like declaring oneself a Catholic Priest in India... and getting burned down along with your family ... as in the case of Graham Staines or declaring yourself a Muslim and being burnt to death for it. As for Iraq -saddam hussain example.. please recall that only you have the habit of declaring victory every second post and then falling back in your cycles of abuse and hate. Now your question- the only valid one atleast-why Jinnah was trying to avoid partition? Jinnah was trying to create a confederation of independent states in India. The Pakistan idea did not equal partition or a complete separation... which even it was supposed to happen would have happened through a constitutional framework ... and without the blood letting.

BTW the circular nature of your mental knots, forces me conclude that you are merely trying to dig yourself out of the hole vis a vis the tailor issue on which you were caught red handed lying out of your teeth. Keep up the brilliant display of wit that you`ve continued with signing your name in bold ... amalgmated as it is in my name... ofcourse.. this takes us back to your honest statement that a ``loser resorts to abuse when at loss of an argument``.

-YLH

#415 by Yasser

As for my generation... and my parents generation.. they`ve all benefitted from Pakistan considerably living in a city the commerce of which was once dominated by Hindus ... ofcourse you hate Jinnah.. it is because of him, I can tell you to go to hell without any fear of retribution, economic or otherwise.

Aww..really? Which means that since Yasser’s parents and grandparents were an bunch of incompetent no-hopers who could not beat the lala fair and square, they chose to kick them out to India and take over their businesses. Khair, here’s the litmus test of how well your community has fared in Pakistan. Go to a busy square in Lahore and say you are a Muslim loudly. Let’s see how long it takes for you to get lynched and take a free ride to the place you were advising BJ to go to.

#413 by Mantolives

I am beginning to think that Harish Hyd feels at liberty to abuse me and my family only because I don`t abuse his family or him ... Apparently in face of those Pakistanis- like Zeemax and Behram who respond in kind and insinuate all sorts of things about his family .. Harish Mian becomes quite the mouse...

I’m beginning to think that Yasser is whining about the fact that he got more than what he bargained for. He thought he could question my family line and force me to fold up and vanish, but my response and the resultant trauma it has caused him have forced Yasser to whine like a crybaby.

As to the other two gentlemen, I feel since Yasser feels inadequate all by himself and the fact that this discussion has badly dented his confidence; he badly needs their support as a crutch. Are these gentlemen listening and will they come to rescue this damsel in distress?

Still ... I personally see it as a great confession that Harish Hyd is admitting that he is only resorting to abuse because he doesn`t have any arguments and is a loser. Finally a kernel of honesty ... though very grudging and too little too late.
Yasser does not realize how hilarious this statement is. During the first Iraq war, like the Iraqi information minister (was it Tariq Aziz?) was briefing newsmen everyday about how American forces were being routed and Iraq was on the threshold of a magnificent victory, he is now claiming victory! LOL!

#412 by Mantolives

Thanks for admitting it. I take that as a confession... That you`ve been abusing me and my family ... calling me all sorts of names under the sun and then lying about me ... clearly you are a loser no doubt and now you`ve admitted it.

Aww…Yasser, poor baby, why are you whining? You deserve what you get. considering the fact that you were the one who brought my family into the picture, why cry when I return the favor?

Why one centralised Hindu-dominated India- just because it was unified by the British

Then why was Jinnah “trying till the end to avoid Partition” (as you put it)? Surely, do you know something that he did not?

Last I checked they had predominantly one religion- protestant christianity... there the imagined identity was based on linguistic reasons... but your objection was not to the basis of division ... it was to Muslim Majority areas being less populous (and Non-muslims were included in these less populous populations)... so you`ve just tied yourself in another knot...

Exactly my point dear Yasser. A linguistic division is a more sound basis than division on the basis of religion. Look at the hellhole that you call your country now. Despite a 97% Muslim majority, Punjabis cannot get along with Balochis, and Sindhis, Shias cannot get along with Sunnis, and everyone is killing everyone else.

Mian BJkumar,

Once again this is your ignorance speaking. First of all the fundamentalists, encouraged by Gandhi, were 90%+ in the Congress camp... this is something you can`t deny.

Secondly every politician (including self proclaimed Mahatmas), even Jinnah`s worst opponents, accepted that his integrity and honesty was beyond question and that he had no venal motives.... That such a man whose integrity and honesty was beyond question and who was and remained through out his life an ``Indian first second and last`` ... even defining Lahore resolution as being based on ``India for Indians`` (read S K Majumdar`s Jinnah and Gandhi published in Calcutta) ... made Pakistan should force a reasonable person to pause and reconsider the lies taught and drummed in his head... but no one dare accuse you of being ``reasonable``... I would have none of that.


As for my generation... and my parents generation.. they`ve all benefitted from Pakistan considerably living in a city the commerce of which was once dominated by Hindus ... ofcourse you hate Jinnah.. it is because of him, I can tell you to go to hell without any fear of retribution, economic or otherwise... Meanwhile... you the lala are living thousands of miles away from your Indian utopia that that hails casteist misogynist hindu fanatic self-proclaimed ``Mahatma`` Gandhi as its ``Father``.

Ah the irony!

#410 by Mantolives

[… Jinnah was hailed … as the best ambassador of Hindu Muslim Unity for 35 years....]

Except when it counted!

It is a bit like a student who answers smartly in the class room but fails to answer the finals – who fails to answer a single question then! The “ambassador” failed and fell flat on his fundamentalist fanny at the only moment in time when it mattered – when he had the power and the ability to make a positive difference. Because, inspite of all his “highbro” pretensions, he was at his core a hypocrite and bigoted communalist – and he was determined to stay limited to being a Muslim and fully unable to identify with being an Indian – if it imposed even slightly on his Muslimness!

He sold his soul to the devil and you and all your couple of previous generations have paid the price. And with the mindset being what it is – as evidenced here – rest assured of the same for the next three generations and beyond! That would be Jerry’s Pakistan, Jerry Jr.’s Pakistan, and Jerry III’s Pakistan. And so forth…

[... so much so that 3/4ths of it had to be cut and thrown away.]

All one can say is – in today’s world, Indians hold their heads high with pride when visiting other countries. The Pakistanis, on the other hand, are often found slinking – and trying to pass themselves off as Indians!

I got to return to work. Have fun, everybody.