Has Hinduism had the Longest Tradition of Continuous Religion?

Reply # 342

dear Ranjit,

I again try to elaborate my point of view.

I was trying to make a point that skilled workers or tradesmen enjoy high prestige in the science based real world where as they are considered ``kamis`` or low caste in India and Pakistan.


In the scientific and real world, ``unlicensed`` and `` unqualified`` tradesmen with no apprenticeship or hands on experience are not allowed to spoil the materials or to claim as a professional electrician or professional carpenter.

unskilled Labour is a different issue ...

The people who illegaly enter USA from Mexico side, usually work underground and they do simple labour like lifting boxes etc. and they make 3-5 dollars an hour wage.

There are millions of unskilled legalized workers in USA and Canada and they make 6-8 dollars an hour wage which comes to approx Rs 4000 a day.

I was talking about licensed and qualified plumbers, carpenters and electricians and no slave labour or illegal workers can work in their place.

It is about ``Standardization`` and quality control and governments make sure that people and workers are classified and specialized and they don`t want ``bad workmen quarrel with their tools`` kind of examples and to ruin materials also.

Workers who work on construction sites make approx 18-20 dollars an hour wage and they are required to elaborate on their resumes ,their previous experience, references and ability to read building blue prints, drawings and operate machinery, and to ensure quality etc..

During British Raj in India, students of Engineering universities were required to go to brick kilns and learn to make and bake bricks, then they were learning hands on experience about brick laying, pointing and importance of codes and neat workmanship etc.

They wanted to make sure that each and every ``brick`` of empire was well trained and well baked.

Leaders like Winston Churchill belonged to royal family but still he took courses in Masonry and brick laying in order to give dignity and show importance of tradesmen and builders of the empire.

As a role model for ordinary citizens, his photos while he was building walls were widely circulated, so that people could feel good to work with their hands and people could have pride in learning hands on skills.

In our countries we have useless and talktive story tellers, mahapandits, mullahs , chaudries, khans , wadairas and Rajpoots and we have hired prime ministers who being a role model cover their inferiority complexes and low self esteems through ``armani`` clothes and spend millions on their kitchens and then show their fat faces on TV.

Rest of the white shirts wearing government babus or divisional forest officers and Executive engineers follow him and they feel insulted if they are asked to repair heritage building of their office or to plant a sapling or touch a brick with their delicate and holy hands.

Results are in front of us ...we find honor , dignity and quality buildings and products in London and in Pakistan and India we find junk buildings , shoddy products and stiff necks in uniforms with iron rods in them....

#343 by ranjit

[I understand the discomfort that this statement may cause you.]

I`m afraid you don`t. A theory is not correct/incorrect JUST BECAUSE it may/may not cause discomfort.

It may cause YOU discomfort, but why project that onto me? :-)



[However, do you really think that once you die, you will be met by Chitragupt on the door to heaven, who will look at your life and assign you a place in heaven or hell? Do you think you will get to see Indra and the 10000 gods and the apsaras dancing? I mean, for crying out loud. Thats the same kind of delusion that the jihadis have. Once they die, they will meet Allah who will assign them houris in heaven. What utter BS!! ]

If from my posts, that is the impression you got, then it is no point discussing any of this with you.


[I guess, it is but natural and human to dream that it will turn out something like that. Just like a kid dreams of Santa Claus and is utterly convinced that Santa exists.]

Is that how you debate? By putting words into the other person`s mouth, and then debating that? :-)


[I will throw you one challenge. If there is an all powerful God - call him Allah, Bhagwan, Vishnu, Shiva whatever, why doesnt he reveal himself to all of us? Not to someone in a cave or in a dream. But directly in front of all of us and give us clear expectations of what is there before and after death. Why not remove all doubts, suspicions and ambiguity? If that being is really that powerful to control all of us, it is trivial to do this and set us all straight. Everyone will then follow one religion and no one will do any evil deed for the fear of God. It wont happen becaus such a being or force does not exist. Period!! ]

It`s too much of a challenge for me to handle. Goodbye.

:-)

Re:krishna_abcd#341
[..But saying that when we die, our neurons stop firing, and that`s it - like a flame going out - is a statement fraught with all kinds of implications. That is not to say that it is impossible that that is indeed the case - .....]

I understand the discomfort that this statement may cause you. However, do you really think that once you die, you will be met by Chitragupt on the door to heaven, who will look at your life and assign you a place in heaven or hell? Do you think you will get to see Indra and the 10000 gods and the apsaras dancing? I mean, for crying out loud. Thats the same kind of delusion that the jihadis have. Once they die, they will meet Allah who will assign them houris in heaven. What utter BS!!

I guess, it is but natural and human to dream that it will turn out something like that. Just like a kid dreams of Santa Claus and is utterly convinced that Santa exists.

I will throw you one challenge. If there is an all powerful God - call him Allah, Bhagwan, Vishnu, Shiva whatever, why doesnt he reveal himself to all of us? Not to someone in a cave or in a dream. But directly in front of all of us and give us clear expectations of what is there before and after death. Why not remove all doubts, suspicions and ambiguity? If that being is really that powerful to control all of us, it is trivial to do this and set us all straight. Everyone will then follow one religion and no one will do any evil deed for the fear of God. It wont happen becaus such a being or force does not exist. Period!!

Re:nature_lover#340

[..In USA you will notice that a ``journeyman Electrician`` makes 28 dollars an hour wage where as a professional engineer might be making 30 dollars an hour....]

It all boils down to population that drives demand/supply. The western countries are sparsely populated so even for hands-on work like masonry, carpentry, plumber, electrician etc, you do not have enough people. Therefore their wages are high, even though it doesnt take that much effort to become one. Heck, even illegal immigrants from Mexico with zero education make a decent living in the US because of the lack of available manpower to do low skill work.

As compared to that India and Pakistan are overpopulated with people who have low level skills. You can shout carpenter and a thousand carpenters will line up. Same with electricians. So how can their wages go up? Thats why professional occupations and specialized tradesmen make more money in India/Pakistan. Its not some grand social/political conspiracy by brahmins and mullahs. If you want to change that, first you will need to reduce the population density to what it is in the western world.

#338 by ranjit

[Ajeya, I am thoroughly disillusioned with all religions. We all think that religions provide a moral compass based on doing ``good`` things in this life to be in the good books of God, so as to have a good afterlife in heaven. The reality is the opposite. Religion has been misused for violence throughout human history and the misuse is even more pronounced today. If you think lack of belief in God will lead you to kill people for the heck of it, it is the other way round. It is the faith in God as per your religion, that is pushing all these jehadis and other loonies into killing innocent people for the heck of it, thinking that they will get rewarded by God afterwards.

Think of the jihadis who planted the bombs in Mumbai trains. Do you think they are just amoral villains like the kind we see in hindi films? People who kill anybody for the heck of it since they have no moral compass. No way!! The jihadis are in all likelihood very, very religious people with strong morals. They probably pray 5 times a day and consider muslim life to be very precious that needs protection. If there is natural disaster, they would provide humanitarian relief (just see the Lashkar-e-Toiba`s earthquake relief efforts in PoK). However, when it comes to people from a different religion, they have no hesitation to kill innocent men, women and children as if they are subhuman animals. Why is that? In their warped mind, they are soldiers for Islam. They are doing a good deed which will get them benefits after death from Allah.

I submit that a mind that is detached from religion (either total disbelief or nominal belief as mumbo-jumbo) is much more likely to follow a moral compass that is not driven by greed for benefits after death. Rather it will be driven by practical considerations to maximize the quality of life on earth. It will be more likely to treat people fairly and avoid prejudice. It will be much more tolerant of differences and believe in live and let live. The fantastic progress of the secular west, secular far-east countries, secular Turkey, secular Malaysia and the pretty good progress of secular India, proves this hypothesis. ]

ranjit,

Being disillusioned with religions is one thing. But saying that when we die, our neurons stop firing, and that`s it - like a flame going out - is a statement fraught with all kinds of implications. That is not to say that it is impossible that that is indeed the case - that we are nothing more than a sumtotal of atoms and molecules that blind evolution has churned up - all I`m saying is that it is very difficult to be sure. To paraphrase Somerset Maugham - you can be sure that you cannot be sure of anything. The Universe is such an amazing mystery, our own existence is so improbable and so very pointless, that it is impossible to discount anything. And that is why I was discussing what such a belief really signifies.

This is why I am so comfortable just being a human being. The term ``Hindu`` signifies my cultural upbringing. NOTHING more. I think it is quite possible for a society to live happily for a while without any religion - like the Chinese - maybe for a few generations. But I think religion will ultimately make its resurgence in China as well. Because religion is a mental crutch in a world where there are, and always will be, so many unknowns.

I`m not sure, but that`s what I think.

Don`t blame the religions. Blame the false prophets and the idiots who follow them. Or at least blame those who believe in bad things just because some prophet said so.

# 339 by Ranjit

I guess you couldn`t get my point.

There is no doubt that non scientific mullahs, pundits and cultural mythologies play important role in nation`s lives and they influence psyches of individuals and nations.

In rationality based scientific world ``hands on worker`` is no less important than those who make drawings on paper or write with pens.

In USA you will notice that a ``journeyman Electrician`` makes 28 dollars an hour wage where as a professional engineer might be making 30 dollars an hour.

``Journey man Electrician`` is a very respectable title in Europe and USA and they usually attend 4 years of technical institute after grade 12 and they do atleast 4 years of tough apprentice ship before they get that respectable title like `` Electrician``, `` carpenter``, or ``licensed mason`` etc.

Reason is very simple , you don`t see power failures, loose joints, jumbles of wires or explosions of transformers or electrocutions of innocent citizens in these countries..why...??

Becuase ``hands on work`` is what matters here...they don`t want to destroy their billions dollars equipment and materials by giving all powers to those Engineers who probably got Engineering degree from UET, Lahore at a gun point and who got the government job, because they killed 4 fellow students while they were heads of the students wings of Muslim league or People`s party.

In the real world, where we find high quality buildings, reliable machines and professional services, supervisors and senior Managers reach to higher positions through apprentice ships and through ``hands on`` experience, so that they become REALLY able to ``train`` and supervise junior engineers and tradesmen.

Scientific and prosperous nations respect and implement ``codes`` and ``specifications`` just like we Pakistanis and Indians respect and honour our mullahs/pundits and their rituals.

Re:nature_lover#337

[...Why Hindu pandits of India and talktive lazy mullahs of Pakistan look down at those people who are ``kamis``, low caste, builders, masons, carpenters , blacksmiths etc. etc. ....]

What do you do yourself? Are you a mason, carpenter or blacksmith? Obviously not, otherwise you wouldnt be posting on the internet. It is easy to preach but very difficult to practice what you preach.

Let me take it one step further. Do you have a sister or daughter? If you want her to get married, will you get a mason, carpenter, blacksmith or will you go for a doctor, engineer or MBA?

Economics is driven by supply and demand. India/Pakistan have surplus population with little education. Therefore, they can do the hands-on work like masonry, carpenter, blacksmithy etc. Since there is a lot of people like that, the wages are low and their life is hard. Even people with useless education like liberal arts are also in the same situation and end up doing some low level work to make a living. Professions that require skills require education and brains. That is difficult to acquire. Due to limited supply of people, the wages are higher and hence life for these people is better. That is why, every parent in India and Pakistan want to send their kids to convent schools and get them professional education. It has nothing to do with Pundits, Brahmins or Mullahs. Just plain economics!!

Re:krishna_abcd

[...My intention was to try to discuss with Ranjit the implications of taking the view he was taking -....]

Ajeya, I am thoroughly disillusioned with all religions. We all think that religions provide a moral compass based on doing ``good`` things in this life to be in the good books of God, so as to have a good afterlife in heaven. The reality is the opposite. Religion has been misused for violence throughout human history and the misuse is even more pronounced today. If you think lack of belief in God will lead you to kill people for the heck of it, it is the other way round. It is the faith in God as per your religion, that is pushing all these jehadis and other loonies into killing innocent people for the heck of it, thinking that they will get rewarded by God afterwards.

Think of the jihadis who planted the bombs in Mumbai trains. Do you think they are just amoral villains like the kind we see in hindi films? People who kill anybody for the heck of it since they have no moral compass. No way!! The jihadis are in all likelihood very, very religious people with strong morals. They probably pray 5 times a day and consider muslim life to be very precious that needs protection. If there is natural disaster, they would provide humanitarian relief (just see the Lashkar-e-Toiba`s earthquake relief efforts in PoK). However, when it comes to people from a different religion, they have no hesitation to kill innocent men, women and children as if they are subhuman animals. Why is that? In their warped mind, they are soldiers for Islam. They are doing a good deed which will get them benefits after death from Allah.

I submit that a mind that is detached from religion (either total disbelief or nominal belief as mumbo-jumbo) is much more likely to follow a moral compass that is not driven by greed for benefits after death. Rather it will be driven by practical considerations to maximize the quality of life on earth. It will be more likely to treat people fairly and avoid prejudice. It will be much more tolerant of differences and believe in live and let live. The fantastic progress of the secular west, secular far-east countries, secular Turkey, secular Malaysia and the pretty good progress of secular India, proves this hypothesis.

Reply #245

Echoboom looks like a Pakistani version of ``holy than thou`` Hindu pandits of backward and superstitous India.

One will find just rhetoric, plain ``dangerous`` rhetoric and nothing of substance in his black pages.

Why Hindu pandits of India and talktive lazy mullahs of Pakistan look down at those people who are ``kamis``, low caste, builders, masons, carpenters , blacksmiths etc. etc.

In Europe and USA,.. tradesmen rule the society, Winston Churchill was a qualified mason and a ``licensed`` brick layer...in civilized and healthy societies Tradesmen come to work in luxury cars and live in mansions..

In India and Pakistan ``anti work man`` mindset is a perpetual gift of the ``caste system`` which was created by crazy Hindu Pandits and adopted by their counterpart Pakistani Mullahs...

Prophet of Islam said, `` al kasib o habibullah``, a person, a tradesman who works with his hands is a friend of God...

Salvation of India and Pakistan lies not in more superstitous talks but in Scientific revolution.

#335 by kaalchakra

kaalchakra,

Yes, they don`t necessarily contradict each other.

My intention was not to delve into philosophy per se. My intention was to try to discuss with Ranjit the implications of taking the view he was taking - I wasn`t sure if he had thought things through.

It`s not important, anyway. Although these are important concepts, and lie at the heart of most of our value systems, most people could care less. People usually don`t want to think much, and few are capable of thinking on point - people usually like to be told what to do, and what to think. This is good in a way (as every father who has had a teenager in the house knows - some idiot teenagers think that they have pretty much figured out everything), but it can be bad also - for example when the faithful ``believe`` in the bad stuff.

Ajeya

Krishna

The view that one ought to maximize one` happiness and the view that one ought to reduce others` pain.

Sorry about the confusion!

(May be you could make your scenario even more interesting, and conflicted. What would one do if one of the two men could survive only by killing the other, and say, eating the victim`s body parts.)

#333 by kaalchakra

[There doesn`t seem to be a conflict between the two positions.]

I`m not sure I understood. Which two positions?

Krishna

There doesn`t seem to be a conflict between the two positions. Charvaka philosophy, to the best of my knowledge, does not promote hedonism or self-interest at the cost of consciously increasing someone else`s pain.

#327 by kaalchakra

kaalchakra,

I was familiar with sage Vrihaspati`s saying - only because it is oft-quoted. I am not familiar with sage Vyasa`s sayings (I think I`m not - I don`t know what I don`t know :)).

But what Vrihaspati is saying does not address the issue of moral relativism - he is not proposing that you do any harm to anyone - no morals involved here. And I will have to read all of Vyasa`s sayings to understand what he is trying to say.

Although you are absolutely right when you say that the issue is about moral absolutes - in fact it is also about how you define the word ``morals``.

330 by sunlight
``Om tat savitur varenyam, bhargo devasya dhimahi, dhiyo yo nah pracodayat``
``That glorious sun, whose radiance illuminates the universe, may his light illuminate my mind``
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Small mistake in translation, should have been:
``Om tat savitur varenyam, bhargo devasya dhimahi, dhiyo yo nah pracodayat``
``That glorious sun, whose radiance illuminates the universe, may his light illuminate our minds``

322 by ranjit
Is this a joke? 50% of Saudi population i.e. women cant even drive a car. Minorities have no rights. They cannot practice their faith. People from South Asia and Southeast Asia are treated like cattle. Are you saying that they are very happy? Maybe the poll is limited to the Saudi royal family.
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Apparently you did not read the reference I gave you. It is from New Scientist (a very well known and respected scientific magazine). The research was carried out by a professor from the University of Leicester.

FYI - partly because of the influence of the effect of yoga and meditation on people - there is now a large amount of research going on in psychology departments on happiness. This is unlike traditional psychology, which focussed on curing psychological disorders, and so was focussed more on ``unhappiness``.

If you have any evidence or data to support your opinion, I humbly request you to furnish it.

``Om tat savitur varenyam, bhargo devasya dhimahi, dhiyo yo nah pracodayat``
``That glorious sun, whose radiance illuminates the universe, may his light illuminate my mind``