US, Israel, Vanuatu, Marshall Islands, Tuvalu and Godot want the owners to negotiate for getting the servant quarters back after the Qabza Group took over their house.

bskhan writes <<< The root of all the troubles are the Paki Islamists and these terror masters like HP and the ideological propagandists like Masadi. They create the propaganda trying to obliterate the difference between State-Deterrence the Terrorist Killings by the Jehadis . By doing so they seek to ``legitimatize`` the ultimate Islamist agenda of terrorising liberals into submisssion to THEIR will - which they claim is the will of the almighty!!! >>>

`Mirasi speak`. The Mirasi mentality understands the destruction of entire countries, like the US invasion of Iraq as ``state deterrence``, while any attempt to resist such invasion, regardless of the religious outlook of the resistor is termed `terrorist killing`. If my will was the `will of the almighty` then for sure BS khan would be shoveling dung somewhere and not dirtying this thread. What weakens the liberals is the agenda and the ensuing cycle set in place by the higher and petty terrorists, everything gets shoved to the background as they enact their drama center stage, with dung shovelers like bs khan parroting their mythology.

Godot,

Is Pakistan interested in a solution to Kashmir that’s not on its 100% terms?

1948: Pakistan demands UN plebiscite in all of Kashmir
1990: Pakistan wants Kashmir-resolution as precondition to normal bilateral relations.
1997: Pakistan agrees to composite dialogue instead of Kashmir-centric dialogue
2004: Pakistan drops the 50-year old UN plebiscite demand
2005: Pakistan proposes dividing Kashmir into 7 regions & determining status of each.

Pakistan doesn`t want a solution 100% on its terms.
Pakistan only wants a solution that`s acceptable to the Kashmiris. Period.

Godot,

Again, my argument is that economic development of even a “moth-eaten” Palestinian State is a far better solution than continuous cycle of violence for which Palestinians are paying too heavy a price.

You may have point there. Assuming ofcourse the Israeli govt of the day doesn`t have a sudden mood change. Are you prepared to trust an entire nation to the whims of a war-mongering, self-righteous people?

I guess we are coming from diametrically opposed security frameworks. Your position is that appeasement & economic prosperity leads to mutual security. My position is that only a balance of power leads to mutual security.

You are speaking Wilsonian idealism. I am speaking Cardinal Richeleu.

Godot,

The objective is to give the Palestinians a country and make their lives better, provide them with butter not guns.

Respectfully sir, ``butter without guns`` work only in utopia. In the real world, your neighbor will snatch your butter if you don`t have any guns. Weakness attracts aggression.

Some examples from 20th century...

Ethiopia (1935)
Nanking (1937)
Palestine (1948)
Afghanistan (1979)
Iran (1980)
Lebanon (1982)
Kuwait (1990)
Bosnia (1992)
Iraq (2004)
Lebanon (2006)

Godot,

By being belligerent, Hamas is providing Israel with an excuse

Hamas hasn`t attacked Israel since February 2005.

godot/he: interesting discussion on israel/palestine. godot`s views are more inline with the us view. while he`s are more inline with europe`s (and the rest of the world`s - though some parts of the muslim world have harsher views.......

i had an interesting discussion with a friend from south africa. he told me that white south africans, like himself, are leaving the country in droves. it is, apparently, impossible for white south africans to get jobs. they are way down on the totem pole, behind black female, black male, handicapped, white female and white male.......to think that just 15-20 years or so ago, white south africans completely dominated south africa, to the point that they could jail a man like mandela for 27 (?) years.....

in the end, demographics is what decides it. in today`s world, though it is possible to occupy land, it is extremely difficult to exterminate a population. israel has carried out probably the most massive extermination/cleansing of a population in the past 50 years. ironically, jews were the victims of the most massive extermination/cleansing of the previous 50 years.....

however, the demographics are seriously agaisnt israel now. this, more than land is what will decide the future. either israel has to totaly exterminate palestinians from occupied terrotories, and somehow minimize the population of arab muslims citizens of israel. or it has to accept a mutual peace, along 67 borders......

the later is accepted now by all countries of the world, other than usa, isreal, marshall islands and tuvalu, according to votes in uno. however, israel is not going to accept that. it has nothing to do with hamas, which is a new phenomenon. it did not accept it when a secular party was in power in palestine, which openly recognized israel`s right to exist.......

to the best of my knowledge, israel has never declared that it will accept 67 borders, even conditionally. israel is now excercising the first option......occupying more and more palestinian land, making conditions so unbearable, that palestines just migrate out of the place........

the problem is that palestinians have no place to go. no one wants them. thus it comes down to demogrphics. a battle that israel, according to its own admisssions, is losing. just based on demographics alone, i don`t think israel has more than 75 years left. there is no point in having land, if there are no people there. 25% of israel`s own population is arab, now. and around 50% is arab, if one includes the occupied territories. both these numbers are increasing far faster than the increase in jewish population. very few jews are now migrating to israel. and quite a few jews are migrating out of israel........

this is something israelis should recognize. i personally think jews made a huge mistake in asking for a country, on religiously geogrpahic reasons, instead of pratical reasons. the worst place to have a country was in the middle east, where they would have to carry out a cleansing of locals, and be surrounded by enemies for the rest of their existence. a country in british columbia or in new mexico would have been a better long term prospect....

the second big mistake is israel not accepting 67 borders, while israel still has the upper hand......arabs aren`t going to remain poor, and weak and ignorant forever....the recent defeat of israel in lebanon is an indication of that. additionally if iran gets nukes, certain variables will change.......

it is very very difficult to move into someone else`s land and create a serious imbalance in the demographics, without a massive genocide. muslims couldn`t do it in india, despite 1000 years of rule. indians haven`t been able to do it in kashmir.....europeans couldn`t do it in south africa. serbians couldn`t do it in bosnia. etc. etc.

europeans did it to native americans in usa. europeans did it to jews in europe. but that involved a genocide........

HE, 340

The Israeli say they will not negotiate with Hamas because it is a terrorist organization.

Israel will keep saying that unless Hamas openly declares that it will no longer attack Israel. By being belligerent, Hamas is providing Israel with an excuse. Unfortunately for Hamas, Israel has more muscle.

this list of concessions does not include security provisions such as control of airspace, Palestinian military, etc.

Why can’t the Palestinians live without an army or “control” of airspace? The objective is to give the Palestinians a country and make their lives better, provide them with butter not guns.

Israel could use any terrorist strike (by Islamic Jihad for example) as a casus belli for re-invading Palestine…That still doesn`t mean that you should invade an entire country because of a law & order lapse.

That is very true. This can be negotiated at the table, that Israel must prove that Palestinian Govt. was responsible for the terrorist attack on Israel before Israel invades Palestine.

Again, my argument is that economic development of even a “moth-eaten” Palestinian State is a far better solution than continuous cycle of violence for which Palestinians are paying too heavy a price.