9/11: DOB of Islamophobia

hi Zeemax

{Firstly, you mistook my statement for denoting revenge. Let`s re-phrase it at follows:

``If you kill our women and children as fair game in war, we will kill your women and children as fair game in war``.}

i have been in works so could not intract in time. its late but lets strat from where we left.

when i read your answer my mind stuck into understanding the real spirit of ``Fair Game`` in your rephrased notion.

what is Fair Game. as per your rephrased notion you seem like to preach the idea that ``everything is fair in love and war``. again this is not the language of islam.

when i was studying the law on jihad believe me there was not single moment where i could feel that you notion can take place here.

secondly you are trying to put my Imaan on trial. let me tell you alhamdulillah i am a muslim. beleives in one God His last Prophet (pbuh) and the Holy Book Quran. i cannot give not more explanation of my Imaan.

i am working out on you mail. soon i will come up with some objections. but for now i want you to explain the ``Fair Game in war`` then we will proceed on.

thanks
haider

#204 by zeemax

Of-course what else can you defeated piss-drinkers can do ...

Isn`t it way better than seeting with impotent rage as bedouin wannabes like you do? BTW, the most famous piss-drinker was awarded the Nishan-e-Pakistan a few years ago. Could it be that Pakis love piss-drinkers, just that they aren`t man enough to admit it?

Re: # 210

TE Shah Saheb,

I came across some interesting persons of Pakistan at Chowk. I never dreamt that there wud be some contrarians in Pakistan. Hope freethinking blossoms in Pakistan.

No disrespect to Mecca or Medina but Saudis themselves are no believers in monuments. Wahabism discourages worship to monuments and more of this pagan ritual that the author was referring to i.e carrying Qoran on one`s head. For Saudis it`s book, book of God but no God by itself. It sounds (carrying it on head) is an extrapolation of native faith into the lives of the converted Muslims, carrying on and on. Even native Hindus (foolish to me) too follow this devotion to the objects (totems) of religion with utmost devotion.


Sincerely,

VRV.

Re: # 200

masanmathu

`By the same logic, is it justified to nuke Mecca to take out one pillar of islam (the hajj pilgrimage) with the principal motive to damage the confidence of the enemy on his/her religion..``

Why to nuke Mekka? Mecca-lovers themselves had previously brought down and rebuilt Mekka without causing any damage to the confidence of the believers. Why not nuke the three Satans with whom they indulge in love-play with `kankaries` (very small pebbles, not larger than a pea-nut)?
It is perhaps only today that it has become quite obvious what the three Satans signify.

Irena,

It is perhaps quite true that MANY Muslims have been inconvenienced all over the world since 9/11. But do not forget – virtually EVERY PERSON in the world has been inconvenienced in one respect or another. The blame belongs to the perpetrators of that outrage - and to those who sheltered and encouraged those perpetrators - including members of the community that keeps defending those despicable figures.

It is a good idea to grin and bear the trivial airlines inconveniences!

In any case, whining is no solution.

If there is such a thing as “the Muslims” (a very iffy thing) then that body needs to carry out a certain degree of introspection on why it finds itself in the soup that it does now – and it needs to take REAL steps to address the causes. The first step includes NOT thinking of oneself as a Muslim first – but as a human being first and last!!!

#207 (correction)

The word ``bouard`` should have been ``board``!

#various Zee

Yaar, bechari Irena ne tera kya bigaara hai ki tu uske bouard mein tuttee per tuttee kiye jaa raha hai?!!

There`re only two kinds of species who consume their own excrement ... one is pigs, the other .... guess .... !

And whomever wins, you`ll all line up to suck up the dribbling piss of the winner.

...we`ll watch the fun from the sidelines...

Of-course what else can you defeated piss-drinkers can do ...

zeemax,

Your response is fair enough.. Take it easy. I think the pope has started his part.. We can expect fireworks in a short period.. we`ll watch the fun from the sidelines.. :-)

Certainly an attack on Mecca is justified for the motives I detailed. I implore the goras and the piss sipping, livestock worshipping, elephant nose adoring hinuds and yahood and nasara to try doing that.

Go ahead and do it you wimps.

#200 by masanamuthu

Sure it is. Try it asshole.

..Attacks on civilian infrastructure including tall buildings, commuter trains etc are a guerilla tactic with the principal motive to damage confidence of the enemy, disrupt law & order, and to bring down the enemy`s economy. People killed are merely collateral damage.

The attack on towers was certainly an attempt on the US economy rather than just the motive of killing 3,000 office workers. Much more could have been killed if that was the motive through a lot of easier and simpler means.

If anyone did 9/11 or 7/7 for the above motive, and not simply to kill office workers, they would be completely justified. Otherwise not.


By the same logic, is it justified to nuke Mecca to take out one pillar of islam (the hajj pilgrimage) with the principal motive to damage the confidence of the enemy on his/her religion..

Once and for all to the various macacas and assorted livestock and excrement worshippers on this board:

Attacks on civilian infrastructure including tall buildings, commuter trains etc are a guerilla tactic with the principal motive to damage confidence of the enemy, disrupt law & order, and to bring down the enemy`s economy. People killed are merely collateral damage.

The attack on towers was certainly an attempt on the US economy rather than just the motive of killing 3,000 office workers. Much more could have been killed if that was the motive through a lot of easier and simpler means.

If anyone did 9/11 or 7/7 for the above motive, and not simply to kill office workers, they would be completely justified. Otherwise not.

Title: [9/11: DOB of Islamophobia]

No, 9/11 was not the date of birth of Islamophobia.

It was simply the day a few mad dogs of Islam came and bit us in the West.

And their ``soft`` sympathizers everywhere went into overdrive - barking all kinds of nonsense!

#194 by hasanmahmood

[Because Muslims love and worship everyone on equal footing.]

Including goats. :))

[What if we started worshipping the goras - how embarassing will that be - But wait dont you guys already do that]

I thought it is you guys who have had your lips sealed firmly around the goras` (the USA`s, in particular) rear orifice for the last fifty years. Want me to give you embarrasing details of the exchanges between your hundreds of dictators and ``elected`` leaders and the US foreign office people? Like ``jump when we say, or we shall bomb you to stone age (paraphrasing)``.

:)

#195 by sattar2

Short answer is `yes`.

Same principle as in Israel destroying homes of Palestinian fighters with bulldozers.

Zeemax,

`` ... If you kill our women and children as fair game in war, we will kill your women and children as fair game in war ...``

Whether you emphasize ``If`` ... or ``as fair game in war`` ... in your statement, is meaningless. You are still advocating killing innocent women/children ... with whom you have no beef.

Re-read your statement ... and ask yourself: Is it fair that you kill their women and children ... if you cannot get to them?

Re: # 138 and #141
[.... zeemax and masadi express their undying love and worship for Arabs...]

Because Muslims love and worship everyone on equal footing. What if we started worshipping the goras - how embarassing will that be - But wait dont you guys already do that

Re: # 181
Actually,
the muslim women are still better off because they dont have to call themselves Hindu in front of anyone. Can you imagine the shame and embarssment that will cause. It will give rise to all sorts of questions like why are you not ugly if you are a Hindu? or Why are you parents and siblings not allowing you to dance in front of everyone? or why dont you smell of heeng? So I guess muslim women still consider theemselves lucky as they dont have apologize to every gora for being a Hindu....

#191 by jang

I don`t discuss with idiots.

zeemax, while you consider jihad to be divinely ordained and something of special value to revealed to muslims, to outsiders it feels like a standard-issue tribal resistance or revenge which has been practiced by all kinds of human and macaca tribes. what is so special about it?

#188/9 by haider5

Firstly, you mistook my statement for denoting revenge. Let`s re-phrase it at follows:

``If you kill our women and children as fair game in war, we will kill your women and children as fair game in war``.

Secondly, I do not like to quote Quranic verses on these unworthy pages. It only leads to desecration and blasphemy by heathens and macacas; besides our resident secularoons / moderatoons pulling out all sorts of interpretations and misinterpretations which I consider purely imaginery. Another reason is I am not a neighbourhood Maulvi to flaunt Quranic verses and Ahadees in defence of whatever position I may have at any point in time.

Next, we`ll need to agree on a couple of overriding premises by which I carry my argument, one of which I will make an exception by quoting here:

44:58 Fainnama yassarnahu bilisanika laAAallahum yatathakkaroona

( Thus, then, we have made this easy to understand, in your own tongue, so that men might take it to heart.)

So the premise is that Quran is not esoteric, nor was meant to be. It is simple, with enough room for reasoning by common minds. It neither demands literalism to free the reader from all freedom of choice, nor presents complex philosophies. In short, it was meant for the pagans of the desert and not for the chowk intellectuals.

The other premise is upon `Tauheed` being the supreme and ultimate destination of the Quranic message. This being the paramount spiritual pillar amongst the 5 pillars of Islam; i.e. rest being social and ritualistic.

If we agree on the above two premises, then we can continue. Otherwise it is pointless.

As for Jihad, I had listed ten groups fighting now. I consider ALL of them Jihad, not only fully justified but ORDAINED under one or another Quranic injunction; while you consider NONE to be so. Therefore we have a long way to go.

zeemax

hope you will come up with good answer. i am not doudted about your indepth knowledge on islam and international relations, in which i am quite incompetent. i am eagerly waiting for your answer. and i dont know wether you are older than me or not but i know you are bingger than me in knowldge so i cannot tag you with any pathetic name.

thanks
haider

zeemax

{I`m not sure whether 9/11 was carried out by Muslims; but even if it had been, their answer would be :If you kill our women and children, we will kill your women and children.}

i am really grateful that you have proved me right at very outset of your post.

i wrote once:

``wherever it is carried out to satisfy ones own ego it is not jihad, its personal war so its a very sacred word for us and the thinline between jihad and personal war needs to be understood. and the jihadis you talk about are fighting their personal wars to satisfy their egos so they cannot be called jihadi in any sense``

and you wrote:

``if you kill our women and children, we will kill your women and children``

SO:

where is jihad?
where is islam?
where is God?

here i am quite comfortable to say under the light of your notion that this is revenge, personal war, ego. BUT NOT JIHAD.

hope you will come up with some reference of Hadith or quran to prove claiming Jihad in this situation as obligatory.(if you kill our women and children, we will kill your women and children)

beleive me or not i wish you could come up with some solid reasoning based on islamic sharia to prove your notion right and your objective should be to make the Liberaloons/Moderatoon like me to accept your school of thought. and plz prevent beating the bush.

you once said that haider is badly confused to urstruly. i started thinking at that time that i might be wrong. but i tried to adopt the way to question you to know your point of view where you feel i am worng. but when i asked about the jihad you said it is all written in the sura baqara and didnot tell me a single extra word and started tagging me with different names, which i was not expecting. beleive me i wanted to be corrected. but now i feel that your objectives are different perhaps you are trying to defend your ownselves not islam. you come up with the auguments to prove yourself right against bjkumar and the party. but you never tried to prove the teachings of islam logical and right. and there is hell of difference.

here let me tell you your mail contains lots of confusions. which can be pointed out easily.
for example you tried to prove your notion by giving the example of hiroshima`s nuclear bombing giving it the shape of hypothesis. which is totally wrong because they would have never said it Jihad simply because they are not muslim. wish you had quoted some example from Islamic world.

There are many more. Will elaborate in next mails. come to point.

thanks
haider

Re: # 186

Zee Jee,

when did Spain use F-16 to bomb Muslim populations to deserve the Madrid attacks? How about the Bali attacks, did the population of Balennese suffer muslim wrath because they were using slingshots? How about the populations of Turkey, were they also guilty of bombing Muslims? Jordan, Soodi Arabia, Morroco?

I havent yet started with Pakistan where Musharraf has had two attempts which are publicly known and then shortcut aziz who survived one. Now both tof these gentleman are guilty of bombing muslim populations?

Muslim or amerikee extremist both share one thing in common and that is their narrow tunnel vision of life. Palestinian, Kashmiri, Iraqi sufferings are niether new or isolated. Ask South American populations how they have suffered, but did they ever resort to suicide bombings? What about the East European populations, did they not suffer during the war against communism, why did they not use terror tactics? Japs were nuked, so why havent they produced a revenge seeking hiroshima-osama?

World has yet to forgive US for useing nukes against the Japs even though they were in a state of war of gargantuan proportions both sides losing millions. Why sud the civilized world rationalize or justify `deliberate` terror attacks on civilians?

#184/5 by haider5

I want to ask why muslims carry suicide attacks and the attacks like 9/11 on western powers?

I`m not sure whether 9/11 was carried out by Muslims; but even if it had been, their answer would be :If you kill our women and children, we will kill your women and children.

That ``If`` is the distinction.

If Japanese had nukes, they would justifiably have nuked Los Ageles in response to Hiroshima.

And don`t tell me killing women and children by crashing planes into building is not OK but killing women and children by joystick-bombs at 30,000 feet is fine. If it isn`t, please provide the `terrorists` some joy-sticks too so that their `Jihad` is not so messy but squeaky clean as a new F-16.

Having said the above, killing of innocent civilians, whoever they may be, cannot be condoned.

But anyway, your position is not new. Several posters here share your view which I and some others call Liberaloons/Moderatoons. This has also been discussed threadbare. Please state something which is original so we can continue.

zeemax

dont say its an old question and no need to answer it ect. please give me your own original opinion about this.

i will be thankfull.

haider

zeemax

i want to ask why muslims carry suicide attacks and the attacks like 9/11 on western powers?

please give me the answer
hope you will.

thnaks
haider

Zeemanx

Be careful..............your cyber Jehad is ruining your personal life!!

wanted jewish terrorists

Re: # 180
[..they are pretty lucky. ...]

You think so?... well, in this life you bedouins run after your goats [a goat-**** is the a ``right of passage`` for you guys is what I heard]... and in after life - you run after the gilmans... so where is the luck for the average fatima?... Between the goat and gilman - she is pretty much out of luck... :)

Re: # 178
No actually they are pretty lucky. there is no ugly guy telling her that she has to kill herself for her husband. there are no cows pissing in the same water that those people are drinking and taking a bath in. There are no people repeating ``thousand apologies`` to every gora skin they see and oh everyone is actually clean and does not have a smell that reminds everyone else of ``HEENG`` - lol

Re: # 177
[...It is all there in Al-Baqra...]

Yep - it`s all there is the Baqra book... jihad, it`s meaning, ways to wage jihad, the rewards for martyrs... everything you want to know about jihad is written by the Baqra guy... :)

Re: # 176
[hi zeemax...what is Jihad? ...]

jihad happens when zeemax and wife strap suicide belts and blow up a restarurant... then they go to heaven where zeemax gets 72 virgins, 65 young boys....... no one really knows what mrs. zeemax is going to get for the good act... :))...

methinks the 65 young boys were originally intended for women martyrs but over the time, the men martyrs have appropriated that from the women... looks like, even in heaven muslims women are out of luck...

#176 by haider5

Jihad is exactly what Quran says. Let`s not go into this new and lengthy subject. It is all there in Al-Baqra.

Jihad is `Fi Sabil Illah`. Period. Do clear your confusions.

hi zeemax

as per your verdict i am badly confused would you please help me in clearing my confusions. hope you will

lets start with Jihad

what is Jihad?

please give me the answer then we will preceed on.

thanks
haider

Re: # 162

# 162 Amended as:

Re: # 125

Mishra,

Agree to most of it.

The medieval bandits of Afghanistan - thanks to the efforts of the US and ISI - now behead people as if it`s an Islamic ritual. The deeds of Zarqawi for the last 2 years had inspired these worthless animals to imitate those Arabs.

You cant reason with them or an Arab state but you can howl aloud abt America and Europe on the other hand. Let them establish an equivalent of American society in the Muslim world first and howl abt discrimination in non-Muslim lands coz, they combine all issues of Muslims and have their hearts bleeding abt problems but asked abt responsibilities they flinch. They cant even say a word in support of the points we raised. Hypocrisy??

Though a non-Muslim I was searched twice or thrice in all (LA, SFO, LV, SJ, WDC Reagan, JFK, DFW) US airports in 2000 (pre-9/11). We have to follow the rules of the land. What’s the big deal?

aw! Now please go to GOD, she is not that bad, God will forgive and is all forgiving. Ask her for her blessings and she will give it you plenty.

Dont be ANGRY she is good!

Red Hot .... Quick ... cross your legs .... you may get burnt ....

Queenie ... surprise ... I don`t have a beard ... neither am I a Quran thumper as you say ... But ... I`m an Islamist. You have a problem with that ? Now I`m getting ANGRY!

#170 Salim, GOD has to be willing to accept a hirsute bearded quran thumper like Zeemax for that to happen!

Who knows she might send him for some remedial language and logic 101 classes

#169 QC&P {``Perhaps, at the risk of my friendship with Salim jang Veer bahadur chauhan Pasha-e-Pahsmina-Chawl, I will recommend that you sit at the feet of the lady ``}

Queenie,
I would recommend a much higher location. :)

zeemax mian - you need to learn a few things. Perhaps, at the risk of my friendship with Salim jang Veer bahadur chauhan Pasha-e-Pahsmina-Chawl, I will recommend that you sit at the feet of the lady you and your cohorts abused, the GOD of Chowk UP andlearn the art of developing a cherent logical argument.


The construction of the statements are crucial since they carry and convey a meaning. In this case you seem to be making the case for the world to prosecute the muslims and the islamic

#139 by nasah


[yes Krishna ji -- I have the `moral integrity` to answer your question in your own way:

Let`s suppose I caught George Bush in Iraq red-handed - right in the act, that is, and arrested him.

Let us also suppose that I knew that Dubya was planning to detonate a nuclear device that would kill millions of innocents, and the disaster could be averted by extracting that information through torture, from the ``invader``, WOULD I DO IT? Or would I read the Geneva conventions?.......

NO I WONT DO IT.

I will take George by his ear -- to his mother -- and ask Barbara to spank her barbarian son`s crappy butt -- red and blue.....for his genocidal gang activity -- I will tell her mother to brush her son`s full of cavities mouth with soap for being so stinky foul mouthed on a subject like TORTURE -- and I will advise the elder Bush to hire a tutor for his dyslexic dimwit Junior to teach him how to read and INTERPRET the Geneva convention every morning before he gets to eat his breakfast.....

NO -- I WILL NEVER TORTURE THAT SYNTAX TORTURED MAN in a million years.....period. ]


I am not smart enough to understand what your George Bush/Barbara Bush story is supposed to mean.

BUt I gather from your post that you are saying that you WOULD NOT torture a man who is INTENTIONALLY KILLING Iraqi civilians, to save the lives of millions of innocents.

Well, this is where you and I differ. I would. And I think every rational person should, too.



[btw -- Krishn Kanhaya ji -- don`t lose your `moral integrity` -- by forgetting your own ``insurgents`` like Shaheed Bhagat Singh -- and Udham Singh for avenging the third degree that General Dyre gave your ancestors in India -- in Jaliyanwala Bagh ......not too long ago.....please. ]

I would urge you not to compare your very low class barbarians with someone like Bhagat Singh. After all, there has to be a difference between followers of a pedophile, and an Idealistic man like Bhagat Singh.

Ever notice why you Islamists ALWAYS SEEM NOT TO NOTICE THE VERY CRUCIAL DIFFERENCE? EH?

BHAGAT SINGH NEVER TARGETED INNOCENT CIVILIANS! HE EXCLUSIVELY TARGETED BRITISH POLICE AND SOLDIERS. UNLIKE YOUR LOW CLASS ``INSURGENTS`` THAT ARE KILLING THEIR OWN COUNTRYMEN BY THE THOUSANDS.

IN FACT, KHUDIRAM, THE FIRST PERSON WHO EVER THREW A BOMB AT THE BRITISH, THREW A BOMB ON A CARRIAGE WHICH WAS SUPPOSED TO CARRY A BRITISH OFFICIAL BACK FROM HIS RESIDENCE TO HIS OFFICE. UNFORTUNATELY, THAT DAY, IT WAS HIS WIFE IN THAT CARRIAGE - WHO DIED. OUT OF REMORSE, KHUDIRAM SURRENDERED, KNOWING FULL WELL THE TORTURE HE WOULD BE FACING.

SEE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOUR ISLAMIC ANIMALS AND IDEALISTIC FREEDOM FIGHTERS IN INDIA?

NO?

WELL THEN THAT`S BECAUSE OF YOUR ISLAMIC HERITAGE.

#166 by bjkumar

Just for this statement:

There is that “Muslimness” and its unique ability to crowd out any independent judgment ability.

25% for that. Back to 25% macaca score but no more. You should have known it is only because of everyone pushing them into a corner.

Yaar Zee,

Take a good look at my #124 (replacing Romair`s name with your own), then get back to me promptly on my current score!

Hurry, before I soften up!

Yaar Queeney, what is odd about saying that the wars will only end when the oppression ends? Isn`t that what the statement says? Naak ko aagey sey pakar lo ya peechey sey ... baat eik hi hai ....! (any way you hold your nose is the same .. you`re still holding the nose).

no that is not what the statement means....

Islam accepts there will always be wars until its oppressors have all been defeated.


Now, please do not get exasperated. Simply trying to understand where you are coming from.
Now I understand the directions of your coming with these two statements

For a muslim, Peace is to die in battle.
and
Islam accepts there will always be wars until its oppressors have all been defeated.


for these reeval the inner most workings of your pretty little head. Thank you very much.

Now we can get back to the teasing and abuse.

theek!

Okay dokey!

#161 by queen_cut&paste

No I don`t agree that Muslims will always be at war. Neither have they been always in wars throughout their history. The only point I`m trying to make is that THEY ARE NOT SCARED OF WARS! Get it?

Uff ....

Re: # 125

Mishra,

Agree to most of it.

The medieval bandits of Afghanistan - thanks to the efforts of the US and ISI - now behead people as if it`s an Islamic ritual. The deeds of Zarqawi for the last 2 years had inspired these worthless animals to imitate those Arabs.

You cant reason with them or an Arab state but you an howl aloud abt America and Europe on the other hand. Let them establish an equivalent of American society in the Muslim world first and howl abt discrimination in non-Muslim lands coz, they combine all issues of Muslims and have their hearts bleeding abt problems but asked abt responsibilities they flinch. They cant even say a word in support of he points we raised. Hypocrisy??

Though a non-Muslim I was searched twice or thrice in all (LA, SFO, LV, SJ, WDC Reagan, JFK, DFW) US airports in 2000 (pre-9/11). We have to follow the rules of the land. What’s the big deal?

#159 - thus from your statement it appears that YOU AGREE THAT MUSLIMS WILL ALWAYS BE AT WAR.
NOw why do you find Blair and Bush distateful when they say a similar thing?

zeemax where is your friend Masadii Complexii. Psue Scholarus.....you need his help!

#158 again another revealing statement

``accepts there will always be wars until its oppressors have all been defeated.``

You will find that as a human being you will always be under oppression for one reason or the other. And currently as things stand Muslims seem to find a reason where ever they live as a minority. And where ever they are a majority there is an ultra-orthodox minority who are in a state of agitation - ala OBL and his supporters/seconders et al. Thus this oppression will never stop and hence the war like state will never end - since no one is ever staisfied with their lot in life.

Zeemax mian you need to be careful.....but then what can be expected from a literate macaca....

#156 by queen_cut&paste

Queenie .. don`t laugh yourself silly ... you`re scaring your pet macaca ...

1) I don`t see anything wrong with that statement in the light of what I said. You try rephrasing it and you`ll be wrong.

2) The other statement is NOT true in case of other religions because war is an aberration in those and people are scared to die in war. Not so in Islam. Islam accepts there will always be wars until its oppressors have all been defeated.

zeemax mian, here isanother of your gems
``Islam is Peace at times of Peace, Moderation/Accomodation when warranted, and War at times of war.``

this is true of christian traditions, hindu traditions, Shinto traditions, etc etc. So what is unique about the islamic tradition? What is the issue here? Why are all these guys flying planes into buildings, bombing trains everywhere they can? You seem to have given the reason unwittingly, maybe you do have apoint since you have spent time and have waded the ``ocean of islam`` and dived deep into it.

Please explicate on this above gem of yours, and tell us in what way is it different from other religions!

#155 hahahahahahahahahaha

zeemax you are the one with the intelligence and logic please do it.

NO seriously since you are theone who said it and are trying to establish this view of yours, you please do it. If you cannot then have a bleeding grace to say you got it wrong!

#153 by queen_cut&paste

No .. you rephrase it for me please ... then I will twiddle my thumbs and you can take you macaca out in the garden ...

Re: # 150

further to #153 and when you are caught with your pants down resort to abuse!

then you will have to rephrase your statement, zeemax mian

``For a Muslim, Peace is to die in battle ``

this can have one meaning only. Duality or no duality. You need to revisit it and rephrase it. but then macacas like you cannot foathom reason and logic if it is not not your sort....hence your structuring og the above!

Now go and twiddle your thumbs!

...contd...

Actually I wonder what he would call Islamic Jihad .. the trademark deadly Palestinian movement which was not in the list and which uses suicide bombing as its principal tactic.

#149 by Urstruly

Yes I`m surprised Haider is pretty badly confused.

#143 by queen_cut&paste

Abey Queenie ... tu kahan sey tapak parey? This was a discourse on theology I was having with Kaal and beyond your puny little head.

Anyway, for your simplistic/dualistic mind I will answer your question i.e... ``they mean peace in battle after death only! IF so how, can they suggest that violence is not a central doctrinal theme of their beliefs...``

Absolutely right. However peace in battle not `after` death but `until` death!

Islam is Peace at times of Peace, Moderation/Accomodation when warranted, and War at times of war. All three are natural states of Islam and Muslims don`t shirk from war even in the most severely disadvantaged positions because death is no bogeyman for them either.

See?

Now go walk your pet macaca in the garden.

Zeemax

The three movements that haider has categorized as legitimate are those that have an Iranian backing; and I don`t see it as a coincidence. I think Hazrat Ali will be turning in his grave as well.

#140 by haider5

Ok Haider. So let`s go back to the list I provided in the light of your answer and see who is whom in your opinion:

1) Hamas: Not a jihadi movement but purely fighting for legitimate resistance.

2) Hazballah: Not a jihadi movement but purely fighting for legitimate resistance.

3) Chechen: Not commented upon but I assume the same motive as above.

4) Taliban: Not commented upon. ?????

5) Somalia Islamic Courts: Not commented upon. ????

6) Bin Laden: These are the people fighting not their personal wars but following the agendas as approved by American intelligentsia. Just to defame muslims and islam.

7) Muslim Brotherhood: Not recognised.

8) Jaish Muhammad: These are the people fighting not their personal wars but following the agendas as approved by American intelligentsia. Just to defame muslims and islam.

9) Lashkar-e-Tayyaba: Same as above.

10) Jamaa-e-Islamya (Far-East): Not commented upon ????

So out of ten Islamic militant movements, you have termed three as legitimate resistance, three as not for personal interest but someone else`s agenda, failed to recognize the largest Egyptian movement, and not commented upon entire Afghanistan, Somalia, and the Far-Eastern movements. In any event, you have accepted `none` is in personal interest but have also claimed `none` is Jihad.

So all these macacas and our moderatoons/liberaloons must be crazy that they term ALL of these as Jihad. Can you kindly teach them that actually this is not Jihad and they needn`t be Islamophobic about any of it??

#146 Kaalchakra all of these terms have to have the same meaning for all. Where the difference occurs is
(a) in visualising these terms - for me peace could be reading the morning papers without anyone saying a word for you it could be drinking your cup of tea and listening to birdsong!

(b) in the means in achieving these ends. (these words in some sense define an end).

And that is why Zeemax Mian`s statement For a Muslim, Peace is to die in battle took me by surprise. For here, from what he says, is the only civilisation which seems to stress that peace is obtainable when two sets of people battle it out and one dies! If you you die, you go to heaven doing Allah`s wish hence the rewards. if your opponent dies you have done allah`s will hence you will be rewarded. The logic is one of a Win win situation. That is the Logic of Zeemax. If this is the thinking should we all be surprised if people suggest that the battle is a do or die thing right now.?

queen_cut&paste

It is possible that ``peace,`` ``justice,`` ``legitimate reistance,`` ``women`s rights`` - all these concepts mean very different things in different religious traditions. That could be why the `truthful` claims of one group of people leave other groups of people aghast/scratching their heads in genuine disbelief.

Re: # 144
Kulharee: ``It’s amazing how far you Pakis will go to lick Arab butt. Is that also a Jihad? ``

please, Kulharee! I mean this is fairly straight forward. I mean yu need the middle man camel. The string has to be arab-camel-..........

No seriously, when this was asked of Masadi et al the reply came you have no understanding of humanity and connection with the down trodden. But on the other hand if you read Zeemax`s finer understanding (as in #143) you will understand where these guys are coming from!

Re: # 140

Let me clarify your delusions. No one in the civilized world is worried about what you call it, or how you define it. You can call it Jihad, Head up camel’s butt, Mirage, or whatever you wish. Fanaticism, extremism, and terrorism by any name is just that. Most unemployed underachieved morons like Masadi (and perhaps you) are just looking to make yourself better by hanging on to straws, while your beloved leaders are hiding in the caves. Call it Jihad if you like, but it is better known as “bastards on the run”. Have you heard how Hamas is now going to form a “Unity Government”? is that some new kinda Jihad? Even Nasroolah of Hazboola admitted that it was a mistake to kidnap Israeli soldiers. It’s amazing how far you Pakis will go to lick Arab butt. Is that also a Jihad?

Zeemax on another thread/board said the following

Kaal, I will try not to go into the philosophical aspects of this. I will only say that yes, you`re right. For a Muslim, Peace is to die in battle. For the former two, Peace is no battle. So where do these two concepts merge? Peace means something else to the former two that you mention, and quite another to the latter.

Islam is an Ocean. One can either stay at the shores, or delve deep into it as I`ve done at great peril. ....


If this is true, then really when the likes of Zeemax et al suggest Islam is about peace, they mean peace in battle after death only! IF so how, can they suggest that violence is not a central doctrinal theme of their beliefs.

Note: I am being polemical here.....and picking up on the logical inconsistencies of Zeemax!

Re: # 136
``...Do not be afraid of death. Our religion teaches us to be always prepared for death. We should face it bravely to save the honor of Pakistan and Islam. There is no better salvation for a Muslim than the death of a martyr for a righteous cause...``

Yo YLH - did Jinnah really say this?...

Re: # 138
[.... zeemax and masadi express their undying love and worship for Arabs...]

It`s called the stockholm syndrome - the longest running stockholm syndrome ever happened in the world.... Qasim forced bedouinism on these l0sers a fre centuries back and they are captivated ever since....

salaam Zeemax

{First, accept my heart felt congratulations for winning accolades from islamophobic_macacas.

Next, I have noted your assertion as follows:

and try not to use the term jihad for those people who are fighting their own personal wars.

I had posted the following list on another board. Kindly help me in adentifying which one/s is/are fighting for personal interest so I may immediately cease/desist from supporting them:}


let me tell you that i am not here to get the oscar for the most accolades acheived, neither i am scholar type out to reform the whole world. what i want is to understand the spirit of things we are doing and keep the process of reformation intact.


its quite exhaustive list but confusing at the same time, because i have looking for any jihadi organization named bin laden or muslim brotherhood. but i tried to shorten this list by choosing some main organizations for the purpose that whether they are jihadi movements or fighting for their personal wars. its really a good question and everyoen should understand it.


1) Hamas:
you must know its history. so this is not a jihadi movement they purely fighting for legitimate resistance against the oppressors.

2) Hazballah:
legitimate resistance.

The former prime minister of Lebanon, Najib Mikati, told on May 2005 ``In our terminology Hezbollah is not a militia, it is a resistance and we believe there is a difference between resistance and militia`` .

3)al qaida(off-shoots--jaish-e-mohammad, lashkar-e-tayyab etc.)

these are the people fighting not their personal wars but following the agendas as approved by American intelligentsia. Just to defame muslims and islam. because America thinks that islam is the biggest threat to their defence. a defense which has never been challenged practically except the fabricated event of 9/11, and these people are the characters of this whole drama.

here let me clear that legitimate resistance is the right of every nation. but when you talk about jihad the basic componant that to do struggle for the spread of islam in the way of Allah misses. but a muslim killed in a legitmate resistance is shaheed. The indo-pak war in 1965 has never been claimed as jihad.

please opine on this saying of Hazrat Ali on Jihad.

``Jihad is divided into four branches: to persuade people to be obedient to Allah; to prohibit them from sin and vice; to struggle (in the cause of Allah) sincerely and firmly on all occasions and to detest the vicious. Whoever persuades people to obey the orders of Allah provides strength to the believers; whoever dissuades them from vices and sins humiliates the unbelievers; whoever struggles on all occasions discharges all his obligations and whoever detests the vicious only for the sake of Allah, then Allah will take revenge on his enemies and will be pleased with Him on the Day of Judgment``.

zeemax we should face the ground realities that muslims ummah is missing the basic components for success, like we are hit by ignorance, poverty, injustice, secriterianism, dishonesty etc. how can you think without being united at one plateform and without getting resolved all internal issues we can win America or the western powers. They work as European Union and what about you OIC. Again there is Hazrat Ali’s saying

“He who is deserted by friends and relatives will often find help and sympathy from strangers”

I will also give the answer of your mail about Bhaands.

Masadi

Thanks you are really a sensible man. From now on keep bjkumar and others calling you by names but you come always with strong arguments. Which you can. Negate yourself and keep Allah and His Prophet in your eyes. Your arguments will get the strength.

thanks
haider

Re: # 129
``nasah,

You seem to mouth off quite a lot on this forum, so let me ask you this question. If you have the moral integrity, you will answer this (in the past, no one on this forum has):

Let`s suppose you caught a bunch of Iraqi ``insurgents`` red-handed - right in the act, that is, and arrested them.

Let us also suppose that you knew that they were planning to detonate a nuclear device that would kill millions of innocents, and the disaster could be averted by extracting that information through torture, from these ``insurgents``, WOULD YOU DO IT? Or would you read the Geneva conventions``(Krishna ji)

yes Krishna ji -- I have the `moral integrity` to answer your question in your own way:

Let`s suppose I caught George Bush in Iraq red-handed - right in the act, that is, and arrested him.

Let us also suppose that I knew that Dubya was planning to detonate a nuclear device that would kill millions of innocents, and the disaster could be averted by extracting that information through torture, from the ``invader``, WOULD I DO IT? Or would I read the Geneva conventions?.......

NO I WONT DO IT.

I will take George by his ear -- to his mother -- and ask Barbara to spank her barbarian son`s crappy butt -- red and blue.....for his genocidal gang activity -- I will tell her mother to brush her son`s full of cavities mouth with soap for being so stinky foul mouthed on a subject like TORTURE -- and I will advise the elder Bush to hire a tutor for his dyslexic dimwit Junior to teach him how to read and INTERPRET the Geneva convention every morning before he gets to eat his breakfast.....

NO -- I WILL NEVER TORTURE THAT SYNTAX TORTURED MAN in a million years.....period.

btw -- Krishn Kanhaya ji -- don`t lose your `moral integrity` -- by forgetting your own ``insurgents`` like Shaheed Bhagat Singh -- and Udham Singh for avenging the third degree that General Dyre gave your ancestors in India -- in Jaliyanwala Bagh ......not too long ago.....please.

Re:rf786#133

[...Even today, our brotherly state Kuwait refuses to grant work visas to Pakistanis, Soodi Arabia has slapped a total ban of Paki males under 40years wishing to perform umra or Hajj in their individual capacity......]

Vow, I didnt know that!! In spite of this, the shameless macaca_mullahs like zeemax and masadi express their undying love and worship for Arabs. What beghairat people!!

#133 radio bimillah,
``Had Bush Jr not gone on his meglomaniacal escapade into EE-Rak things wud have not deteriorated to the level where they are today.``

during the liberal clinton admin, first world trade center, african embassies, USS cole, barack towers in saudi arabia and most of the planning for 9/11 was done. so i dont think the blaming bush solely is correct. the heady brew of jihad has little to do with eyerack..it had been simmering long before.

check out jinnah`s advice to pakistanis in the aftermath of partition bloodshed. this advice would also apply to palestinians fighting for their independence. since USraelis are holding palestinians captive, according to jinnah, violence aainst USraelis would be justified. the pope therefore is not entirely incorrect. his problem is that muslims are not taking the gora subjucation lying down;

quote from jinnah`s speech at a rally at the University Stadium, Lahore on 30th October. 1947

``...Along with this, keep up your morale. Do not be afraid of death. Our religion teaches us to be always prepared for death. We should face it bravely to save the honor of Pakistan and Islam. There is no better salvation for a Muslim than the death of a martyr for a righteous cause...``

#134 by SR

SR, beware. 9/11 denying is as big a crime as holocaust denying. So you better believe in the tale of the 19 easter bunnies and the santaclaus of tora-bora.

Re: # 128 nasah {``...Islam did not bring 9/11 -- Osama did...``}

Please don`t attribute so much power to that cave-dwelling baboon. He is just a criminally insane two-bit murderer. Blowing little holes in the hulls of anchored ships and blowing up incompetently guarded diplomatic buildings in 3rd world countries is as far as his thugs can pull off. An operation as complex and sophisticated as the 9/11 attacks is far beyond the imagination -- let alone capability -- of this vatvani and naswaar gang. That operation could only have been carried out by forces far more complex, more sophisticated and more diabolical than any cave dweller ever was or ever will be. Who and what those diabolical forces are, is a question that may come to light some day in the not-so-near future.

...SR

Irena Akbar,
Islamophobia is most certainly a problem for muslims or their lookalikes in general, but there is another problem which this argument fails to address and that is the fear of another terrorist attack. When suicide bombers hit civilians in Mardid, London, NY, Bali etc then the question which needs to asked who is responsible? Problem with the Muslim world has been a reluctance to accept they have loonie bins in their midst. Everything is turned into a conspiracy theory involving theose evil jews and raunchy texan cowboy. Reality is very different from their perception of the world, thus the delusion they are under attack. Having said that, Uncle Sam is equally responsible if not more. Had Bush Jr not gone on his meglomaniacal escapade into EE-Rak things wud have not deteriorated to the level where they are today.

On a separate note but related, we all have experienced Islamophobia one way or another, but being a Pakistani with a Paki passport this racial discrimination was being practiced well before 9/11. Even today, our brotherly state Kuwait refuses to grant work visas to Pakistanis, Soodi Arabia has slapped a total ban of Paki males under 40years wishing to perform umra or Hajj in their individual capacity. So who is guilty of violating basic human rights? Questions muslims need to ask themselves.

testing friends to see if the ban has been uplifted

SR ... i.e. Hamidm.

Bulleya,

NATO is increasingly losing confidence and an expert was saying yesterday that war against Taliban is unwinnable. Four Canadians were killed in the very village which they had declared as Taliban-free a day ago. According to NATO ``Taliban are everywhere``.

More troops or armaments won`t help. It only takes a home-made IED to disable a $ half-million tank, making the crew sitting ducks for RPGs.

Question is, the allies cannot afford to lose in Afghanistan. They cannot afford to withdraw from Iraq. Any campaign against Iran will result in (as per Fox analyst) ``annihilation of 130,000 US troops in Iraq``. So what are the realistic options available to the allies?

#114 by SR

Thanks for the info. I hope there aren`t groups of Muslims in there with him splashing water all around the out-houses preparing for prayers. That really pisses him off.

#128 by nasah


[only to get smacked back right on both of his own eyes -- making him blind to see the difference between legal intelligence gathering and becoming an outright Gestapo torturer -- causing a lack of `clarity` of a cataract vision -- that can hardly distinguish a banana from a dynamite stick -- Geneva from Abu Gharib -- turning him into a dyslexic fascist hell bent on relocating Geneva somewhere in Guantanamo Bay. ]

nasah,

You seem to mouth off quite a lot on this forum, so let me ask you this question. If you have the moral integrity, you will answer this (in the past, no one on this forum has):

Let`s suppose you caught a bunch of Iraqi ``insurgents`` red-handed - right in the act, that is, and arrested them.

Let us also suppose that you knew that they were planning to detonate a nuclear device that would kill millions of innocents, and the disaster could be averted by extracting that information through torture, from these ``insurgents``, WOULD YOU DO IT? Or would you read the Geneva conventions prisoners` rights to them and wait for the certain death of millions?

Don`t try to avert the question by saying:

1) It is an unrealistic situation, or

2) The nuclear disaster situation is much more serious than the existing disaster situations in Iraq

Why?

Because we are talking about a principle here.

And I`d like to find out the basis for your principles and moral indignation.

Islam did not bring 9/11 -- Osama did -- and Osama is not Islam -- nor Islam is Osama --

if our fascist stupido Tom Thumb balistiya man -- now defending TORTURE as the `President` of a country like the United State -- who was never cut out for a Jeffersonian Job -- knew the difference -- he would not have attacked an Eye-Rock....

only to get smacked back right on both of his own eyes -- making him blind to see the difference between legal intelligence gathering and becoming an outright Gestapo torturer -- causing a lack of `clarity` of a cataract vision -- that can hardly distinguish a banana from a dynamite stick -- Geneva from Abu Gharib -- turning him into a dyslexic fascist hell bent on relocating Geneva somewhere in Guantanamo Bay.

tahmed32, --..--, Zeemax, and all other friends

Thanks for remembering and for the welcome. Recovery continues. While there is still much distance to cover, for a person blessed with so many well-wishers, no burden can be too heavy. Thanks again.


. --...--

Please! That seems almost sacrilegious :)

i was planning to do some serious world-tourism but maybe i will wait..based on romairs thinking there will be a draft and i will have to go see the world as a GI apparently.

#121 VRV

My point is that ``progressive`` intellectuals like Irena are always pre-occupied with racism in USA, mistreatment by Israelis, wickedness of the british etc. They dont give a rats ass about the $10 billion dollars or more spent by the Saudis in advancing their brutish cult, the decimation of minorities in islamic countries (pak, bangladesh), the cultural genocide of the tibetans, the current mass murder of black sudanese.

She is all upset that her sister, who has chosen to settle amongst the most kafir nation, cannot carry some religous objects with her !! But she is not upset by any of the things I have mentioned.

There is only word for this kind of behavior: shameless hypocrisy. Regrettably, we have many such educated people in india.

#123, #122

Yaar Romair, I thought you were trying to kick the habit!

I know it is difficult.

You were never a great supporter of economy - in words. Why say in one sentence what can be expanded over a page?!

Anyway, stop being so apprehensive (You did not catch it from Irena, did you)? Nobody is coming after you - not unless you are one of the crooks. (Are you?)

Did it appear to you - even for ONE second, that security measures protect EVERYONE – yes, including Muslims!

But you don’t see that – all you see is that “oh, victim Muslim me!” Like those naajuk ladies in old movies.

“Bachaao, koi bachaao!!”

What is this?! A secret short-circuit running through the pipeline of the ummah?!! Push a button in any one spot and whole bunch of red light bulbs go flash, flash everywhere else?!!!

Screw your paranoia - and screw your (no better than wolf Naqshi`s) creepy sense of ``us Muslims`` versus ``those Hindus`` and ``those Christians``. You idiot, idiot moron of million words – at what point did they take a screw driver and molest that limited mindscape of your head with those prejudicial feelings – in grade school?!!

Screw you and what you stand for – a thousand, thousand times!

A million times!

What is your Muslimness to you? The cover that covers your whole darn life – no matter what creepy crap lies under it? That covers your collective asses? Cover it – cover it all! And pretend it is all nice and comfy down there?

So you get your head stuck in there?

Sometimes I really begin to think that the friggin` Pakistanis here have really lost the ability to think of themselves as anything other than Muslims! There is that “Muslimness” and its unique ability to crowd out any independent judgment ability. The vamp sucked that ability right out of those limited minds! I wish I could pick a cricket bat and whip every one of those numbskull asses!

People really need to read the book, ``Jerusalem Countdown.`` by Reverend John Hagee. This is a best seller. John is considered one of the most powerful poltically influential religious figures in the USA. Hagee has been described in Wikipedia as,

``Hagee is the President and CEO of John Hagee Ministries which telecasts his national radio and television ministry carried in America on 160 T.V. stations, 50 radio stations and eight networks. The ministries can be seen and heard weekly in 99 million homes....Hagee was awarded the ``Humanitarian of the Year`` award by the San Antonio B`nai B`rith Council. It was the first time in the history of San Antonio that this award has been given to a gentile. Dr. Hagee was presented the ZOA Israel Award by U.N. Ambassador Jean Kirkpatrick. This award was given by the Jewish Community of Dallas, Texas......``

Nothing wrong with the above. Nothing wrong, until one reads this guy`s views. And then realizes that it is people like this who hold the Republicans in their palms. This is why I find the arguments of so many Republican supporters on this site, who keep pushing these guys` policies, via the Republican parties, while simultaneously highlighting the maulvis in the rest of the world.

As I have always said, the USA is drifting away from the rest of the Western world. I would be more concerned about John Hagee`s of the world than the Qazi Hussein`s..........John Hagee`s have real power....The guy is heard in 99 million homes, and has the most powerful political party in the palm of its hands! Qazi Hussein barely has one radio station and can barely win his own seat..........

P.S. I would like to highlight to our Hindu brethren on this site, that while these evangelicals do give Muslims and Jews some chance of making it to heaven (specifically Muslims, since they recognize Christ), they give zero chance to Hindus and others who don`t recognize Christ.......So you may not want to join up too closely with them...........

---

``His latest book, Jerusalem Countdown: A Warning to the World, interprets the Bible to predict that Russian and Arab armies will invade Israel and be destroyed by God.

This will set up a confrontation over Israel between China and the West, led by the anti-Christ, who will be the head of the European Union, Pastor Hagee writes.

That final battle between East and West - at Armageddon, as the actual Israeli location of Meggido is known in English - will precipitate the second coming of Christ, he concludes.....

And there are far more evangelicals in America than Jews - estimates suggest that they represent about a quarter of the US population. (Jews make up about 2%.)``

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5193092.stm

Remember 99 million homes! When he goes to Washington with his evangelical friends, according to his own admission, Senators and Reps line up to meet him........They have to line up, since his followers represent a quarter of the votes in the USA!!!

Following is a must hear: It is a speech on what is motivating the current politics in th USA. It has an interesting speech by Pastor Hagey(?) at a Christian Zionism convention. It was attended by the head of the Republican party. Bush sent a message, as well. It`s quite scary......These guys scare me far more than any maulvi will....primarily because they already have nukes...........

23% of the USA`s voting population are Christian Evangelicals. 41% of the population are Christian Conservatives (I would not have believed this number, had I not heard it on CNN). This is the group that the Republican party is beholden to. This group wins the bottom geographical half of the USA for Republicans, regardless of how well or poorly the Republicans perform. To get an idea of the power of this group, Rush Limbaugh, alone has an audience of 20 million listeners a day in the USA!

George Bush and religious Republicans thus have 1/3rd of the US votebank in their pocket. They just have to compete for the remaining 2/3rd. Democrats thus have to get 51% of the total vote, while Republicans have to get only another 17%.

Interestingly according to Christian Zionism, all Jews will eventually convert to Christianity or die. Hence the Jewish religion is not realized as a legitimate religion by this group. Neither is any other religion for that matter.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6097356

Re: # 120

Irene,

Thanks that u admitted the faux-paus on Gujarat.

Let me rephrase ur post.

>>>>>The Muslim-vaadis capitalised on this ``Hinduphobia`` and used it as an effective marketing tool in the mass murder of Hindus which had its roots in nothing but sheer hatred of Hindus.<<<<<

This is called, if I may say so, application of similar logic during Direct Action Day to whack-off innocents, incidentally Hindus. This was follwed by decisive retaliation of similar kind against innocent Muslims by Hindus.

Wud u kindly remove the religious affiliation and see the things in secular perspective????

Things wud be much clearer and less poisonous, I feel.

What do u say?, Irene?

Re: # 118

Alright, I may have gone a bit overboard by stating that Gujarat-2002 may not have happened were it not for 9/11 but I do believe that saffron organisations in India have become bolder in their vicious anti-Muslim propaganada after 9/11. Gujarat riots began barely six months after 9/11. That was the time when suspicion vis-a-vis Muslims was at its peak. The Hindutva-vaadis capitalised on this ``Islamophobia`` and used it as an effective marketing tool in the mass murder of Muslims which had its roots in nothing but sheer hatred of Muslims.

#117

[That 9/11 was orchestrated by some frustrated youth in the name of Islam is obvious]

Aaah, that youthful Osama….

Now, THERE`S a youth for you! Aaah, those youths - such charming characters they make. With multiple wives nagging at him - it is perhaps understandable that he would be ``frustrated``!

But how conveniently you ignore #1 which accuses you and other writers like you so directly for contributing to that herd mentality which leads to more events along those lines!

If only some people could stick their necks a little out of the shell they so proudly and determinedly wrap around themselves!

Like a chador - which shall always stay inviolate!

thanks lucknowi (irena) for clarifying. but the link betwenn 9/11 and Gujrat riots is very weak is not obvious. gujrat seems to have its own genesis and trajectory. could you clarify how you draw this link?

Dear Interactors,

As some of you are blaming the Muslims for Islamophobia (and I partially agree with you on that), I just wanted to clarify the intent of writing the article. And that is to talk about the impact of 9/11 on the psyche of the average Muslim.

That 9/11 was orchestrated by some frustrated youth in the name of Islam is obvious and has occupied enough (and rightly so) media space. That other terrorist acts that followed were al