Save this Cultural Heritage

#16 by Kulharee on September 26, 2006 6:56am PT
Re: # 11

”HP Sahib, I am glad you had a few giggles on my expense.”

Kully Sahib, I first read giggle as gargles :)

I guess your commitment to Hira mandi is little too big for you to follow my thoughts on the whole thing. Hira Mandi is no cultural center. It is a brothel first and brothels move from one place to another depending on business. You can keep as many buildings in Hira mandi as you want, but if there is no business there, girls will move to the other areas. That is a fact that is bigger than any cultural value of the buildings where some girls live or do business. Those buildings are not monuments to have some historical value. If you have read my post, it would not escaped you that I mentioned saving historical places but there is no one on the face of this earth who could possibly prove that Hira mandi has equal or better historical value than for instance Shahi Qila or Ranjit’s tomb.

“you walk down in Hauptstrasse in Heidelberg, the newest building there is some 400-year old. People take pride in”

Sorry that wont cut it. How big Hauptstrasse is compared to old Lahore? Hauptstrasse is a mile long street, take a mile long of historical Lahore and save it if that helps you but saving the whole unmanageable walled city would be just waste of resources that can be put to some better use. The problems in the old walled cities are way beyond nostalgia or romanticism. Getting basic sanitation services alone to the walled cities is a gigantic task.

It is not only Lahore; these problems exist in every old city in Pakistan including Hyderabad, Peshawar and even the old Karachi itself.

“This type of thinking prevailed during the Taliban.”

Just shows your ignorance (I should rather use strong words but I will refrain from it). Walled city is no Moen jo dero or the Buddha’s stupa. It is not unique in any way. There are multiple of walled city spread around in the subcontinent that are exactly like old Lahore. There is no point in throwing inane like Taliban around w/o the context. It only shows that you cannot argue your case on merits.

“(I am also interested to find out where you came up with the stats suggesting that the majority of prostitutes moved to poor neighborhoods, because I have not been able to find any such work to suggest that.)”

80% of girls in Hira Mandi or any other brothel serve the poor lower class. Why would it surprise any one if they would prefer to move close to their customers instead of places such as Gulberg or Clifton where they would be completely out of place? I don’t know what you were doing walking in Hira Mandi, if you could not figure out this simple thing.

A word abt saving this music gharana or that music gharana.

That is pure bull. Music like any other art, changes with the time. You can respect those artists but doling money to them is pure non sense. You were quick to bring out Hauptstrasse in Heidelberg but how many musicians Germany or any other western country support financially once a particular genre of music or any other art goes out of fashion?

It is not a government’s job to support artists financially. If they can’t survive in their chosen business then they should look for something else to support their families. I guess most of them are doing that but a few are just whiners.

Re: # 22
You see Masadi Sahib, only a Mulla will go and tell the residents of Hira Mandi what to do and where to go, and you will never see a Kanjar (as you will) or a Mirasi go and tell a Mullah what to do and where to go. You see the difference? You see you religionists don’t get this simple message of “get the hell out of our lives”. Do you? But don’t worry, we all know, you don’t.

Kulharee writes <<< These two should be preserved, because it took a thousand years to come to where we are now, and we shouldn’t let these trades die under some false pretense of religion. >>>

Why does religion always translate into ``false pretense`` in your vocabulary? Of course music is a reflection of culture as are many other things which you find undesirable, but I`m sure in your sensibilities you wouldn`t like Usama songs praising his ``jihad`` being broadcast day and night or ``preserved`` in some madrassa or street block advertised for all to see and hear, other people have different sensibilities which need to be taken into consideration in a just balance sort of a way as well. Now we know that those you admire and work for, the cultural imperialists try to sweep everything away based on their own preceived superiority. If you think with parts of your anatomy other than the brain, you will come up with absurd recommendations, I suggest you kick start your brain and let the other parts be directed by it.

Respectfully submitted, (as Behram the bigot would say).

Nice article Kulharee...but when you tell these stories over a glass of Chevas Regal with your face half hidden in smoke rising from your cuban cigars..it sounds much better. Like every Punjabi I have 2 wishes...one to visit Lahore and 2nd to enjoy the entertainment at Hira Mandi.. Now that Musharraf has saved Lahore you guys save hiramandi few more years...bass main ayea ke ayea....kapRay sawaaN lai ne, jutti banwa lee ay, pagg rangwa lee ay..bass ticket lainee baaki ay.:-)

nice article Kulharee.

bulldozing the olde city will be like bulldozing the soul of lahore. it was a horrendous thought in #11. blekh!

Re: # 13
Yeah But Masadi Sahib, I think we ourselves are responsible for killing these institutions. I don’t think we can blame externalities for that. I agree that sex trade should be controlled and alternative lifestyles be provided to sex workers, but what about dancing and music? These two should be preserved, because it took a thousand years to come to where we are now, and we shouldn’t let these trades die under some false pretense of religion.

Re: # 12
Nadia, yep.. Beautiful poetry of Nasir Kazmi.

Re: # 15
Shah ji, I agree, that sex industry should be viewed separately from the Music and the Dancing culture. I am sorry that I suggested that sex industry should also be preserved. I was wrong to suggest that. I personally have no issue with sex industry. I think it should be regulated, merely because it will go on, no matter what any one does about it. My concern is the deterioration of the Music and the Dancing culture. I think it should be preserved and promoted.

Re: # 11

HP Sahib, I am glad you had a few giggles on my expense. When I was a college student in Lahore, the Hira Mandi was at the beginning stages of its decline. And just before that, the prostitution actually went on from sunrise to sunrise. Prostitutes might not have stood in the balconies on the main streets, but the back streets were always doing business, whether 8 in the morning or 6 in the evening. You are right; the main street came alive after sunset. I am not familiar with Napier Street. Also, the Mujras started after 9pm or so well into the early hours, but the Riyaz went on all day, and there were “Chilas” every day and every night in the Bethak of Ustad Shoukat Hussain. Aspiring students practiced 15 hours straight, every day. I remember Ustad Ji saying, you practice a million times, and you get to perform only once. The sad part is that there is no one left in Hira Mandi (or Pakistan) to do it anymore. And just FYI, I didn’t get to see my first Mujra until well after finishing my graduate school, when I went back to Lahore, and my friends treated me to one. I still remember that experience. It was magical. Sitting up close and watching a skilful dancer and superb musicians.

I am quite surprised that you would want the whole inner city to be bulldozed to be rebuilt. If you walk down Haubstrasse in Heidelberg, the newest building there is some 400-year old. People take pride in
their history and heritage, and we should too. I am sure you wouldn’t like Shahi Masjid to be demolished to be turned into a parking lot. So don’t wish for something that might come back to bite you in the arse. This type of thinking prevailed during the Taliban. History and traditions are to be preserved. That`s all we have, for crying out loud. (I am also interested to find out where you came up with the stats suggesting that the majority of prostitutes moved to poor neighborhoods, because I have not been able to find any such work to suggest that.)

The music business, without a doubt, HM was the breeding grounds (as well as incubating grounds) for what is known as the North Indian classical music (Hindustani). Punjab Gharana was the basis for all
other musical gharanas. In Tabla gharanas for example (I am being partial, caz of my love for the instrument), Punjab is not only the major one, but also the one from which all other Gharanas sprouted from. But that’s another topic for me to write about.

What I was saying is that, let me tell you about my dear friend Janab Akram Khan son of Ustad Mubarak Khan Sahib of AjRara Gharana (one of 4 major Purbi Gharanas). Akram tells me that Indian Government gives them 6 Lakh rupees to “preserve” and “promote” their music. That’s how he is able to come to the US and UK every year and do a few gigs. I want the Pakistani government to extend the same to our musicians. But sadly, it is too late. There is no one left in Pakistan to carry the mantle of Punjab Gharana, Tafu ji is too old and will be gone soon. 6 of the most celebrated Punjab Gharana musicians now make home in Toronto or NYC. You would be happy to know that I am a very active member of the WMI, and spend enough energy and time to promote Hindustani, even if it wont make a difference. At least I try to promote something I care about.

I really hope that someone takes up a stand against this genocide of our cultural heritage. This is not only worth preserving but as far as I am concerned, it is worth worshipping.

Qutub -- great writing -- however the nostalgia should evaporate under the harsh realities of modern times -- those were the good old days of gonorrhea and syphlis that did not kill the people only maimed them -- no one-contact death certificate -- now in the modern times of God`s wrath HIV (God does n`t like multiple partners) -- it is better healthwise to let go the nostalgia........

oh my god, stupid PC vallahs if they had any akil they would restore the old haveli and make it into a 5 star hotel suite thing like some of the old havelis of India. I hope they dont knock it down!

Khair, if the dancing girls could dance and people (normal people) could go just to watch them dance and pay money, then maybe they wouldn`t need to sell themselves as they could make money from their performances.

But, alas, our people and culture is not that far ahead yet!!!

Kulharee writes <<< Masadi Sahib, the difference between Hira Mandi residents and the impression of Globalization is that HM folks are being displaced by their own people, and not by the M’effing IMF. >>>

If your own folks kill you or foreigners kill you you are just as much dead, it is not that one is dead-er than the other, the facts are that those globalizers are doing the same thing on a much larger scale.

Regarding prostitution, it will exist regardless of morality labels when the family institutions is damaged and the family institution will remain damaged as long as the economy is damaged and the political is either non existant or weakened by the powers that be.

On the other hand when you restrict polygamy in a most hypocritical way, as in the west which practices at present serial monogamy, due to the high divorce rate, interspaced with a high percentage of extramarital affairs, not to mention the open-season outside of marriage, usually the women are losers with their economic standing being the clearest indicator of such loss~ very few can cash in on it. On the other hand the Islamic prescription merely protects the weak among the women by giving them family live- and in addition allows the state to provide civil `pledge` marriages (maa malakat eemanokum) of otherwise oppressed women. That is what needs to be preserved not prostitution that in most cases oppresses the woman.

Introduced to ``Brothel`` by the abusive remarks in this forum. Due to inquisitiveness I asked from many acquintances from Lahore and all gave the grim details of ``Khasta Hali`` of the institution. Your memorial tribute has located a space in my mind for the musical heritage status of Pakistan. Though ``kanjar khanas`` are in nick n corners of Pakistan but Hira Mandi is concerned nostalgic soul of the city.

It is heard there is a wonderful picture of late actress Nadra in there made by a renowned artist which is worth watching. There is indeed some melancholy about this place.

Anyways lets read Nasir Kazmi who also used to search some stolen gems:

Kuch Yadgar-e-shehr-e-sitamgar hi lay chalai.n

Kuch Yadgar-e-shehr-e-sitamgar hi lay chalai.n
Aye hai.n is gali mai.n to pathar hi lay chalei.n

You.n kis tarah katega KaRi Dhup ka Safar
Sar par Khayal-e-Yaar ki Chadar hi lay Chalei.n

Ranj-e-Safar ki koi nishani to paas ho
Thori si Khak-e-Kucha-e-Dilbar lay chalai.n

Yeh kia ke CheRti hai hamai.n Dil-Giraftagi
Ghabrana Gaye hai.n aap to Bahar hi lay Chalei.n

Is Shehr-e-Bechargi mai.n Jayegi tou Kaha.n
Aye Shab-e-Firaq tujhay Ghar lay Chalei.n

An interesting write up by kully.

I don’t get a few things like this statement:
“I was a young college student in Lahore; I would regularly go for after-school stroll in Hira Mandi. With no money for sex or to see a Mujra, my main curiosity was to walk past the houses in narrow alleys and see the prostitutes standing in the doorways waiting for customers.”

School and colleges usually close in the afternoon and that is the time when every chukla or kotha is pretty much dead. There is no business and girls are usually resting after a long nights work. So how kully saw all those girls is beyond me.
Anyway barring a few unexplained gaffe, this is a good and refreshing article after so many so so political articles.

“Not much has been written about this jewel of the Indian sub-continent.”

I doubt that Hira mandi was ever considered a jewel of the sub continent. Before partition, Lucknow, Delhi, Banaras, agra and a few other cities in central India boasted some major brothels. Even the ones in Kolkata ad Mumbai were better known. Lahore was nowhere near the top. After partition, it started to attract attention but Napier Road in Karachi was still the place to go. Most of the hira mandi’s name recognition was because of Pakistani movies and especially the cheap Punjabi movies. It became a major hunting ground for movie producers. But the big names in the movies were from Karachi. Shamim Ara, Zeba, Deba, Babra Sharif and few more were Napier road product. Salooni, Rani and perhaps Firdous were the biggest names out of Hira Mandi.

Is Hira mandi a cultural center worth preserving? I am not sure about that. I think saving old neighborhoods in Lahore or any other city in Pakistan is a compete waste of time and resources. The way the old walled cities are, it would be best if they are gutted and the cities are rebuilt. Saving those neighborhoods, imo, is useless. There maybe a few historical places worth preserving but Hira Mandi sure can’t be one of them.

Hira Mandi and the other Brothels in Pakistan died mainly because they were unable to cater for the new breed of customers. Brothels attracted two types of customers in Pakistan: Waderas or well to do zamindars or the lower class which looked for some cheap entertainment. The Middle classes in both Pakistan and India never patronized brothels. The new breed of Wadera after the 60s, owned shiny cars and most of the brothels including the Napier road, Hira mandi and Sera Ghat in Hyderabad failed to provide exclusive parking for the customers. It was still a hidden business and no one wanted to leave their cars faraway and walk to the brothel for people to recognize them. The industrial workers began to prefer to live close to the factories and would rarely visit downtown brothels. With these changes, the girls started moving out to be close to their clients to provide the clients the necessary privacy. So the changes in lifestyle made the brothels lose business.

“However, the dancing and the sex trades that openly and legally went on in the neighborhood, moved into affluent areas of the city, mainly Samnabaad, Iqbal Town, and Gulberg,”

Actually, almost 80% of the girls moved to the lower class neighborhoods. The girls that used to entertain the upper classes moved to the upper class neighborhoods.

A new trend developed in the early 80s, when the girls who lived in Hyderabad serviced clients in Karachi and the Girls in Karachi came to Hyderabad. That saved them from neighbors and now it was the client’s problem to find a safe house. I know pretty much all major Hotels in Karachi and Hyderabad were providing accommodations to the couples. Some girls stopped working with Dallay/Bharway/ Khasi_Ms of the world and started to get their own client list and phone numbers to connect directly with the customers.

The professionals adjusted to the changing needs of the society.

Kulharee,
Very nice article about Lahore.

After reading this I am in love with Lahore. All my elders could do was talk about Lahore was ``Lahore vich Aie Si, Lahore vich oh si...``.

Your knowledge and love for your city(that could be mine too) is very heart warming..

Re: # 8
Truly Sahib, that’s’ not entirely accurate. The clamping down on Hira Mandi actually resulted in more and widespread prostitution. In Lahore, one only has to go around the corner to get sex. I am talking here about “Dancing” (Kanjars) and “Music” (Mirasi) business, and not necessarily sex business. These two communities should be allowed to live with dignity without someone imposing their 7th century morality crap on them. There is absolutely nothing wrong with these businesses and they should not be targeted on religious grounds. Immoral are those who impose their fake sense of morality on others.