Revolt in Paradise

Dickie bow tie, heed the words of the great and good of Chowk! Let us see you in all your glory!

ref #32 and #36 yes that is interesting - esp Tahmed32`s last line ``The hindus of the subcontinent went off on Sir Syed`s track (the Age of Reason) and the muslims on the Iqbal track (the Romantic Movement). ``

I would say the the hindus wwent down this track even before Syed tried to do it with the muslims.
Nevertheless, very precisely put. Esp you reference to Nietszche. However, I wonder if people know of the connection between Iqbal and germany?

On a side note: its interesting to see today`s Times. Carey`s speech, which can be found here Carey backs Pope and issues warning on `violent` Islam is an interesting read.

This coupled with John Reid`s speech today, it appears the writings have started appearing on the wall (can be found here Watch your Son`s for extremism), and taken with the unreasoned protests of the reps in the hall like this guy

(we UKites know this guy very well, and all those who donot follow his line should be very scared of him), TAHMED32`s argument about ``reason`` etc becomes even more urgent.

#34 Dick

Dear Dick,

Be nice to the Gilster, now!

No need to get all defensive just because your are being asked to introduce yourself. You realize that FP and UP are two different worlds.

And I will have you know that Zeemax has been the recipient of an abhai-daan from this interactor - therefore, he has been allowed lattitude to say certain things without any fear of mauling!

You my dear, on the other hand, are an unknown animal of unknown origins.

Therefore, I reiterate...

Dear Dick, go ahead - introduce yourself.

Introduce yourself gently, Dick, to the vast, teeming masses of Chowkies!

VERY gently!

#32 good point. While Iqbal is venerated in Pakistan, I am beginning to realize more and more that not only was he heavily influenced by western movements of his time, Iqbal in fact represented a philosophy that the civilized world has long discarded. That is:

1. He was heavily influenced by the Romantic Movement that came about in europe in the late 18th century, reached its apogee in the 19th (ranging from the romantic poets of england to the german philosophers like kant and hegel and - the one from whom Iqbal was most influenced - Nietszche)). The Romantic Movement was a reaction to the Age of Reason that had dawned in europe a few centuries earlier, and which had put that continent way ahead of the Asian empires, notably the ottomans in the Orient, the mings/manchux dynasties in China, and of course the indian mughals and lesser kingdoms in the Subcontinent. Even some of his style - notably the ``Javid Nama`` which is patterned along Dante`s ``Divine Comedy`` in terms of his

2. Iqbals` call for a revival of muslim civilization, while couched in the Romantic Movement, thus largely glosses over the real reason the west pushed forward, namely rational thinking and the scientific appoach.

In this sense, I think he has done a disservice to indian muslims by promoting the nietzschian ideas that gave rise to fascism in germany. This is not to belittle Iqbal`s wonderful works, but to recognize that no man is infallible and no man is uninfluenced by his times and so no man`s wisdom is eternally relevant. And Iqbal took off on the wrong path when he glorified nationalism. Sir Syed, on the other hand, while not as profound and gifted a writer as Iqbal, was on the right track when he called for catching up with the west by education. The hindus of the subcontinent went off on Sir Syed`s track (the Age of Reason) and the muslims on the Iqbal track (the Romantic Movement). This is a simplification of course, but not too much.

Re: # 30

If you really want to know go here Click here to enter

Re: # 30
so who are your Shri BJKumari jee?

Zeemax is on hallucinogens and is like a little carcinoma full of carcinogens. Do not side with an idiot who names himself after a modified car - cheap skate cannot buy the real fast cars but buy cheeap and sups them up!

Re: # 32
freethinker dude you on the money friend. But our other friends the mullahasishi Echoboom and others are not freethining animals. Purely derivative thinking there. For them Science is the knowledge of the Djinns and pharistas and sonpapris.
Hoodwinking people is their game. So that they are the so-called knowledge people and can get many little camel jocks to worm them on cold noghts.
If people think freely they, the Echobboms of this world, lose out big time.

You are barking up the gum tree mate!

Allama Iqbal derogated reason (and the derived knowledge of science) to extreme limits. Some of his devoted followers wondered “Iqbal aql kay peechay kyon’ latth liye rahtay hain?” One of the facts which many of us have not resolved is that when the question of his condemnation of reason and science is considered, benefit of doubt is given to him because we worship him as an authority. Even those who haven’t read his philosophy consider him unassailable. In fact, it is largely true of those who haven’t read his philosophy. It does not occur to them that Iqbal could be wrong. The fact is that Iqbal was wrong on many issues; his condemnation of science is only one of them. His devotees quote him as if they are quoting from Quran.

He also said although I am not sure if he said in the context that I understand it:

Sher mardon’ sey hua baisha-e-tahqeeq tahee
Rah gaiy sufi-o-mullah kay ghulam a’ay saqi

The field of scientific research is completely empty of the Muslim scientists.

There was no occasion to bring Iqbal and his condemnation of science here because it is toally out of place in the context of the original article.

Mohammad Gill

Zeemax, friend why are youdreaming about arjun_m and seeing him everywhere. Bad for your health!

#30, #29 Yaah! Dick what can you say about yourself?

#29 Dick

Dear Dick,

Zeemax appears legitimately concerned.

Identify yourself properly to the vast, teeming masses of chowk squatters!

is zeemax is kid? A bachha? he seems to be a shrill little child or is he a ``she``?

Who is arjun_Macaca?

. ,****,
.((@..@)) Arjun_Macaca is back!
.. ``(--)``

#23 if all else fails quote the ummahist of all. Ek_bal!

Echoboom wants science to be the knowledge of Djinns and Pharistas. This way the mullahs can rule the roost and have many more little boys to warm their cockles!

What a shyster?

cool. People have not really commented on the following Why the fact that such a debate and revolt is taking place in the United State? Also they sem to be incapable of asking whether such a debate is possible within the believers world.

The only one to have impinged on this debate coming from a different angle in Behram1 (see #19 for example).

The keywords faith, reason, freedom, independent thought are missing from many arguments.

cool. People have not really commented on the following Why the fact that such a debate and revolt is taking place in the United State? Also they sem to be incapable of asking whether such a debate is possible within the believers world.

The only one to have impinged on this debate coming from a different angle in Behram1 (see #19 for example).

The keywords faith, reason, freedom, independent thought are missing from many arguments.

Re: # 22
what i can remember from my school history lessons, is that hitler was financed by german industralists. Germany wasn`t a banana republic it was a fairly rich industrial country, in some fields in science and technology it was ahead of us and uk.