Revolt in Paradise

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I take the liberty to post this here because for some this too is a subject
which piques their mumps.

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Allahma Iqbal

Science and Faith

Once Science said to Faith:

``My eye can see all that is in this world;

The Entire world is within my net.

I am only concerned with material things,

What have I to do with spiritual matters?

I can strike a thousand melodies,

And openly proclaim all the secrets that I learn.``

Faith said:

``With your magic even the waves in the sea are set
ablaze,


You can pollute the atmosphere with foul, poisonous gases.

When you associated with me, you were light,

When you broke off from me, your light became fire.

You were of Divine origin, 

But you have been caught in the clutches of Shaytan.

Come, make this wasteland a garden once again.

Borrow from me a little of my ecstasy,

And in the world set up a paradise.

From the day of creation we have been associates,


We are the low and high tunes of the same melody.``

 

#11 by SR on September 19, 2006 10:26am PT
Re: # 9 ranjit {``... Did America create Hitler? …”}

SR mostly shows good of knowledge of issues but once in a while I have noticed that he does tend give in to conspiracy theories rather easily.
His post #11 is one example of that.

His post makes wrong assumptions to get to a faulty conclusion that somehow Hitler was supported by some mysterious and hidden powers to take over Germany.
Please read this wiki entry, which pretty accurately refutes SR`s theory. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler


“What British and American college history text books don`t tell us is who was paying for those 400,000 men in uniform?

SR makes it look like it happened overnight. That was not the case. The SA or the SS ranks swelled to thousands after Hitler had achieved national recognition and not before that. Once a party achieves national recognition, it gets more financial help from different financier. This was not something that happened to Nazis only.

“In the 1932 German election Hitler had a round-the-clock chartered airplane that took him places. He delivered as many as 9 speeches a day”

Wiki entry: “Hitler was campaigning by airplane. This was a brand new political tactic that allowed Hitler to speak in two cities in one day, which was practically unheard of at the time.”

But the real thrust of SR’s post is this:

“Hitler was a staunch anti-communist and he was a racist. Who in the world, in 1920s, had the money and resources to support an anti-communist bigot??? I leave the answer of this question to your good judgment.”

SR implies that perhaps the US or the British supported Hitler. Hitler was not just anti-communist or racist; he was anti Semite way before that. In fact, his political career started with his anti-Semitism in Austria.

The reality is that in the early 20s the US was not in a position to take up a long-term project of supporting Hitler to take over Germany sometime in the unknown future. The US itself was dealing with the post WW1 internal debate about its role in international politics. There was a constant battle between the liberals and the conservatives’ over the US role in international affairs. The conservative vehemently opposed any US intervention globally. The US also had not created the institutions that later on became important part of the US diplomacy. The predecessor to CIA was a small outfit that did not have enough funds or the clout to impact international affairs like the CIA does now. There were no NSA, DIA or other agencies to promote US policies internationally at that time.

British were worse off. They were dealing with multiple problems both internally and in the colonies.

SR talks abt “Adolf Hitler was a considered not only an okay guy in the corridors of power, but was actually looked upon kindly” in the US.
That is true. However, the communists looked at him kindly too. Some groups of conservatives in the US supported Hitler. But there were some groups of leftist in the US that supported communists in Russia too.

There was a diversity of opinion on what Hitler’s real ambitions were but there is nothing to prove that the US actually sponsored Hitler in his pursuit of world domination.

“Who in the world, in 1920s, had the money and resources to support an anti-communist bigot???”

The question here is whether the Bolshevik were such a force in 1920s that some one with “money and resources” would actually take the pains to nourish a little known fanatic who was inciting anti-Semitism in Austria and Bavaria.

I think this line was part of the communist/Bolshevik narrative that got currency in some intellectuals and a little fact checking can take the air out of this balloon. The communists became a force to reckon with only after the second WW. Before that, Russian internal troubles were bringing the communists down politically.

aslam #16 yes, life is indeed hard for the average pakistani emigrant, particularly to the middle east or much of europe (the kind that does not have the time to come and talk big on chowk). and they are the ones who have suffered the most since they are mostly illegal. given the bad reputation pakistan has received due to terrorist activities (starting with pearl`s brutal killing, and with the ongoing mess created by mullahs), countries around the world are no longer tolerating their presence, as the article indicates.

dear masadi,

i`m really curious...i dont get why u bother arguing with ppl who are simply incapable of even trying to comprehend anything u say...is it for practicing ur debating skills, or entertainment?...cuz it certainly is entertaining and educational (i`ve learned a lot) wat u`ve got to say is amazing...buss hope tht u also put all this into other more important uses as well...:)

Dear Masadi:

So, how would you answer this question that I have been asking you all along. Do you use your reason or do you remain a believer? You have a choice: Reason or Belief?

You know similar type of comments were made by the Pope.

Respectfully submitted,

El Prezidente Busho needs to go along with his troupe of political contortionists, never in modern history has the world appeared so dire as it does today. Wire tappings, secret prisons, renditions, gitmo, prisoner abuse, gitmo, abu ghraibs, lies, deceptions and the list goes on......not just America, the world needs to be freed from Bush and company....

Re: # 14

Masadi, why was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem aligned with Hitler? Did he represent the feelings of all of the Ummah? Your anti-Semitism seems to suggest that. Why are you such a hateful person? Does it not make you sick? Again, you talk about 100 thousands killed in Afghanistan and Iraq, but what about what your brothers are doing in Darfur? And how your Wahabi financed brothers are doing to Shias in Iraq? Don’t give us that ‘bigger picture’ nonsense.

Re: # 12
thanks tahmed for that link.
i think i`ve written about that before there are thousands of pakistanis working in southern europe on fruit and dairy farms some even on pig farms. the pay is around $200 a month, they live in barns sharing it with animals, pigs etc. most are from gujrat, jhelum area, the way i know about them is because i met a couple of them who manged to smuggle themselves in to uk.

read Have the marriages, as ``almost half the marriages``

In addition to #11 by SR let me add the fact that the SU faced the brunt of Hitler`s onslaught losing 20 million while the US not only delayed opening a second front against Hitler in France, it ultimately lost less than a fraction and emerged with its economy booming and its infrastructure unscathed, and of course it lost no time in laying the foundation of another war with no end by creating another bogeyman and the Soviets complied with the American demand to set in place a dynamic that recently ended with the US emerging victorious. Such obliging of the US with a continuous war from which it will emerge victorious maybe not in the small battles but at the end is what my post #8 was talking about. So far this analysis has not even touched upon the cultural aspect of how the US creates and nourishes enemies for its public and the world for which it is uniquly placed on the global arena. Peons of the West like tahmed will cry big tears over Pakistani deportations from Oman but will deliberately cloud the reasons behind why thousands of years after humans have made transition from being hunter gatherers are so many people being forced to roam the earth away from their homes just to make ends meet for their families.

Recently I met an Iranian guy who owns a car workshop here in town and he is crying similar corcodile tears saying oh back home when you go to a park the people make a mess they throw food all around and over here, everything is organized, people throw trash in garbage bins and other such bs, so I had to remind him that maybe he is forgetting the fact that these industrialized countries are responsible for making a big mess the earth over, destroying its environment, depleting its forests and minerals, they are the ultimate mess makers while he, like hamidm and tahmed are worried about a chicken bone or a banana peel being thrown in a park. Oh he said, see they killed a Nun in Somalia! What`s going on in Iraq I said, just because the media gives more importance to a Nun compared to the over 100,000 the US has butchered in Afghanistan and Iraq does not mean you take that as proof of something. Finally I asked him, ``Is you name Behram``, because we have just such a bigot on chowk who used just such dimwit arguments. Oh Muslims are selfish he said, all they care about is going to heaven. Really and what about the objects of your worship the US public? Have the marriages end in divorce~ based mostly on selfish reasons~ fathers are missing they refuse to pay child support, the single mothers languish in poverty? He refused to fix my car.

Re: # 11 by SR

I would like to know the answer to your question, if you have credible sources. I can only recollect - factories from the Ruhr (to control labor unrest) and other local sources. I will not be surprised if there were private fundings from the US raised by the Lindbergs and the von Kleinsmids (even today all fundamentalists have such fundings). However, I will be surprised if the US govt. funded Hitler (secret funding should be known by now).

While those Pakistanis who got their visas to the west and feel safe to talk the big talk about jihad and what-not....other Pakistanis pay the price for this. Even the arab gods of the arab worshippers among the expats are sending their ``muslim brothers`` back.



...arrival of more deportees from different countries - Dawn

Excerpts:

GUJRAT, Sept 18: The drive against human traffickers is becoming a daunting task for the FIA with the arrival of more deportees from different countries. ...

Documents related to operation Harpoon revealed that after interrogating 742 illegal immigrants from Oman the agency identified 633 human smugglers.
Similarly, Spain and Greece deported 482 Pakistanis belonging to this region in July and August. ...

Re: # 9 ranjit {``... Did America create Hitler? …”}

Back before the 1932 US elections when FDR swept the vote and changed policy direction by 180 degrees, Adolf Hitler was a considered not only an okay guy in the corridors of power, but was actually looked upon kindly. Some even considered him their best hope against a common enemy. (If you don`t believe me, go to the New York Public Library and check the newspaper archives. I have.) I’ve mentioned it elsewhere on this site earlier but I’ll recount the facts.

An insignificant army ranker after the war, Hitler worked in military intelligence when he joined the German Worker’s Party (DAP) headed by Anton Drexler. Things suddenly moved fast as if a hidden hand was at work. By 1921 Hitler took over the leadership of the party which was by now called by it’s new name, National Socialist German Worker’s party (‘Nazi’ for short) and quickly proceeded to have swelling ranks of armed militia under his personal command. History books tell us that the SA (and later the SS) in short few years were numbering up to 400,000 armed men, usually ex-army, who had been recently unemployed. That is four lakh, or four hundred thousand armed men. The German Army, on the other hand, was restricted to a maximum of a 100,000 by the terms of the peace treaty signed in Louis IV`s former abode under the watchful eye of one former history professor from Princeton University.

What British and American college history text books don`t tell us is who was paying for those 400,000 men in uniform? That is 800,000 leather boots, 400,000 leather belts, leather caps, shirts, trousers, socks, shirts and jackets. I presume they had at least one extra change of uniforms issued. Let`s not even mention the laundry cost and that of all the flags and medals. Then there were the trucks and jeeps to carry them along with the rest of the logistics, including rations to feed them and their housing etc. Within a few months, starting in 1923, a new force seemed to be rising in German politics out of nowhere. Adolf Hitler and the Nazis hit the headlines with their elaborate rallies, banners, radical ideas and swelling masses of organized followers. What made this man a success? Who was paying for all that?

In the 1932 German election Hitler had a round-the-clock chartered airplane that took him places. He delivered as many as 9 speeches a day while his rivals traveled by train the old fashion way and made one or two stops a day delivering their speeches. Air travel in those days was nowhere near as common. Consider as a case in point that in the richest country of the world (USA) by 1930 the sum total of ALL commercial flights was 162,000.

There was money coming from somewhere and lots and lots of it? The 400,000 armed men had to be paid, they were not full-time volunteers. They had to be fed and the fuel bill of the fleets must have been enormous not to mention the Nazi party infra structure that had as many as 9 daily political rallies organized... I can go on, but you get the point. The German state wasn`t paying for any of it before Hitler got into office in 1933. So who was? Let`s just think about that...!

Hitler was a staunch anti-communist and he was a racist. Who in the world, in 1920s, had the money and resources to support an anti-communist bigot??? I leave the answer of this question to your good judgment.

...SR

If one is to avoid the semantics, it would be fair to say that in the coming days America will emerge as a country that will have a mix of secret and disclosed prison and torture cells with in its territories and around the globe where citizens of other countries would be kidnapped and brought to, tortured, interrogated, and indefinitely incarcerated with impunity. What makes them think that people of world will just stand that and let them get away with this fascist gestapo crap.

Re:masadi#8

[...America, which at the current time is defined not by its people but by its elite, lives off of creating enemies.....]

Only a macaca_mullah like you can say such a ridiculous thing. Did America create Hitler? Did America create Stalin? Did America ask USSR to invade Afghanistan? Did America create Saddam? Did America create Osama? America may have collaborated with Saddam or Osama as per its own national interests. Every country does that. That does not mean that it created them or gave them license to commit mass murder.

For the past 200 years, America has been the last best hope for mankind. It is the place where mankind has reached the pinnacle of personal freedom and economic boom. That is why macaca_mullahs like you and zeemax still live here shamelessly in spite of badmouthing it every day. That is the tolerance of Americans. Any other people would have kicked you out of their country in 2 days. Someone should report the two of you to the Department of Homeland Security as people who have malevolent hatred against America.

America, which at the current time is defined not by its people but by its elite, lives off of creating enemies. It fluorishes when it develops and nourishes enemies where none existed before. Those who want to challenge US hegemony and its barbaric projection overseas will have to figure out ways in which every enemy the US creates is brought back to its senses, that is the only way this monster`s addiction to war and destruction can be effectively challenged. The military response from so-called enemies is what the US craves, it knows no other language and no other solution to its woes which are a plenty if such distractions did not exist. Starve the US of the justifications it seeks for war and you will win a much bigger war. If the countries of the NAM rely on non-military/economic alliances instead of seeking military confrontation (which is actually the trap the US sets for potential enemies) it would be a good start, victory can be more readily achieved, for the sake of humanity who are mostly disposable to this elite, regardless of nationality.