Infallibility No guard Against Stupidity

AWARD for RICHEST POST OF THE YEAR!!!

#225 Godot:

I am not “Bapu.” PM cannot be shamed. His only tactic is to immediately resort to profanities and insults. He’s one shameless chootya who is too busy scratching himself. He just beats around the bush, letting out air from his ass while scratching himself.

I rest my case, laughing my ass off all the way to the brillo rack. :))

re. bjkumar #234
Please don`t pollute the board with the rantings of this sophisitc neo-con and Zioinst apologist, who is always out to paint not only Islam, but Christianity too, in a bad light.
And yes, I can construct a rational repudiation to many of his rants.

re. Salim
#230: ``Considering all this, Mushy`s reaction was both responsible and admirable.``

hmm.. maybe.

Or maybe it was the only choice he had, if he wanted to actually keep his seat, uniform and his bread buttered. Also, there might be some truth to Mazari`s statement on CNN last night that Pakistan welcomed the opportunity to end the talibization of Afghaniztan, sicne the taliban had morethan outlived their utility and were a threat not only to civil society there but in Pakistan as well.

Mushy appears to taken the only real option he had, given than he isn`t an Islamist willing to work for his own H&D at the expense of millions.

Tolerance: A Two-Way Street

By Charles Krauthammer
The Washington Post
Friday, September 22, 2006; Page A17
Religious fanatics, regardless of what name they give their jealous god, invariably have one thing in common: no sense of humor. Particularly about themselves. It`s hard to imagine Torquemada taking a joke well.

Today`s Islamists seem to have not even a sense of irony. They fail to see the richness of the following sequence. The pope makes a reference to a 14th-century Byzantine emperor`s remark about Islam imposing itself by the sword, and to protest this linking of Islam and violence:

• In the West Bank and Gaza, Muslims attack seven churches.

• In London, the ever-dependable radical Anjem Choudary tells demonstrators at Westminster Cathedral that the pope is now condemned to death.

• In Mogadishu, Somali religious leader Abubukar Hassan Malin calls on Muslims to ``hunt down`` the pope. The pope not being quite at hand, they do the next best thing: shoot dead, execution-style, an Italian nun who worked in a children`s hospital.

``How dare you say Islam is a violent religion? I`ll kill you for it`` is not exactly the best way to go about refuting the charge. But of course, refuting is not the point here. The point is intimidation.

First Salman Rushdie. Then the false Newsweek report about Koran-flushing at Guantanamo Bay. Then the Danish cartoons. And now a line from a scholarly disquisition on rationalism and faith given in German at a German university by the pope.
…
In today`s world, religious sensitivity is a one-way street. The rules of the road are enforced by Islamic mobs and abjectly followed by Western media, politicians and religious leaders.

The fact is that all three monotheistic religions have in their long histories wielded the sword. The Book of Joshua is knee-deep in blood. …

Christianity more than matched that lurid history with the Crusades, …

And Islam, of course, spread with great speed from Arabia across the Mediterranean and into Europe. It was not all benign persuasion. After all, what were Islamic armies doing at Poitiers in 732 and the gates of Vienna in 1683? Tourism?

However, the inconvenient truth is that after centuries of religious wars, Christendom long ago gave it up. It is a simple and undeniable fact that the violent purveyors of monotheistic religion today are self-proclaimed warriors for Islam who shout ``God is great`` as they slit the throats of infidels -- such as those of the flight crews on Sept. 11, 2001 -- and are then celebrated as heroes and martyrs.

Just one month ago, two journalists were kidnapped in Gaza and were released only after their forced conversion to Islam. Where were the protests in the Islamic world at that act -- rather than the charge -- of forced conversion?

Where is the protest over the constant stream of vilification of Christianity and Judaism issuing from the official newspapers, mosques and religious authorities of Arab nations? When Sheik `Atiyyah Saqr issues a fatwa declaring Jews ``apes and pigs``? When Sheik Abd al-Aziz Fawzan al-Fawzan, professor of Islamic law, says on Saudi TV that ``someone who denies Allah, worships Christ, son of Mary, and claims that God is one-third of a trinity. . . . Don`t you hate the faith of such a polytheist?``
…
The pope gives offense and the Mujaheddin al-Shura Council in Iraq declares that it ``will break up the cross, spill the liquor and impose the `jizya` [head] tax; then the only thing acceptable is conversion or the sword.`` This to protest the accusation that Islam might be spread by the sword.

Zeemax,

`` ... If you kill our women and children as fair game in war, we will kill your women and children as fair game in war ...``

Whether you emphasize ``If`` ... or ``as fair game in war`` ... in your statement, is meaningless. You are still advocating killing innocent women/children with whom you have no beef.

Re-read your statement and ask yourself: Is it fair that you kill their women and children ... if you cannot get to them?

In other words, if a person has an issue with you, and decides to hurt your wife and kids, would that seem fair to you? Such a person is a wimp, a worthless coward, a low-life.

#231, Mohar Bhayya, {``A people for whom whining about ``honor and diginity`` [H&D] is part of national character - that was something... ``}

Mohar,
Exactly! Mushy not giving in to suicidal notions of H&D is what saved Pakistan from obliteration. In the final analysis, the last donkey standiing gets to bray the loudest. At least, Mushy is not in the dock like Sadman or even Slobodan. :)

Re: # 230 salim

Well - you should see Mushy in a news video taken a couple of days after 9/11, in company the then US ambassador... he looked as if he is p!ssing his pants right then - it was hillarious..:)

Mushy deserved to be bombed... much more than Sadman Houston or anybody else... he escaped by GUBOing and there is no ``honour`` in that... Even Powell was surprised how fast and easily Mushy GUBOed... A people for whom whining about ``honor and diginity`` [H&D] is part of national character - that was something...

Interestingly - we have never heard pakis talk about H&D since then...:)...

If the threat by Armitage to bomb Pakistan back to the stone age is true, then I have a lot more respect for Mushy. Given the hysterical state of affairs in the days following 9/11, a bombing campaign against any country would have occurred and even be justified by a huge majority of the US and the rest of the world. America wanted to strike back at any ``towel heads, sand niggers, or camel jockeys.`` Certainly, Pakistan would have been bombed severely and, given the state of Indo-Paki relations at the time, India would have gladly helped the US. Nuclear weapons would have been of no use against the bombing campaign and any threat to use them by Pakistan would have made matters even worse.

Considering all this, Mushy`s reaction was both responsible and admirable. He swallowed his pride, overlooked the obvious insult, and steered the ship narrowly through the gauntlet of outrage, vengeance, and thirst for Muslim blood in those dark and terrible days. Unlike Sadman Houston and Milosevich, Mushy showed statesmanship. Good for Mushy - if all this is true.

#227 by Urstruly

Thanks for quoting An-nisa. No. 95 is the umbrella definition our friend requires.

#226 by haider5

I had replied on the other board but nevertheless let`s continue here ...

Firstly, you mistook my statement for denoting revenge. Let`s re-phrase it at follows:

``If you kill our women and children as fair game in war, we will kill your women and children as fair game in war``.

Secondly, I do not like to quote Quranic verses on these unworthy pages. It only leads to desecration and blasphemy by heathens and macacas; besides our resident secularoons / moderatoons pulling out all sorts of interpretations and misinterpretations which I consider purely imaginery. Another reason is I am not a neighbourhood Maulvi to flaunt Quranic verses and Ahadees in defence of whatever position I may have at any point in time.

Next, we`ll need to agree on a couple of overriding premises by which I carry my argument, one of which I will make an exception by quoting here:

44:58 Fainnama yassarnahu bilisanika laAAallahum yatathakkaroona

( Thus, then, we have made this easy to understand, in your own tongue, so that men might take it to heart.)

So the premise is that Quran is not esoteric, nor was meant to be. It is simple, with enough room for reasoning by common minds. It neither demands literalism to free the reader from all freedom of choice, nor presents complex philosophies. In short, it was meant for the pagans of the desert and not for the chowk intellectuals.

The other premise is upon `Tauheed` being the supreme and ultimate destination of the Quranic message. This being the paramount spiritual pillar amongst the 5 pillars of Islam; i.e. rest being social and ritualistic.

If we agree on the above two premises, then we can continue. Otherwise it is pointless.

As for Jihad, I had listed ten groups fighting now. I consider ALL of them Jihad, not only fully justified but ORDAINED under one or another Quranic injunction; while you consider NONE to be so. Therefore we have a long way to go.

Re: # 226 Haider

Helping the oppressed is also one form of Jihad. I do not see any Islam in the following either but it is still Jihad:

``“And what is wrong with you that you do not fight in the Cause of Allah, and for those weak, ill treated and oppressed among men, women, and children, whose cry is: Our Lord! Rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors.

..............The Women: 75

if zeemax is here plz read this

zeemax

{I`m not sure whether 9/11 was carried out by Muslims; but even if it had been, their answer would be :If you kill our women and children, we will kill your women and children.}

i am really grateful that you have proved me right at very outset of your post.

i wrote once:

``wherever it is carried out to satisfy ones own ego it is not jihad, its personal war so its a very sacred word for us and the thinline between jihad and personal war needs to be understood. and the jihadis you talk about are fighting their personal wars to satisfy their egos so they cannot be called jihadi in any sense``

and you wrote:

``if you kill our women and children, we will kill your women and children``

SO:

where is jihad?
where is islam?
where is God?

here i am quite comfortable to say under the light of your notion that this is revenge, personal war, ego. BUT NOT JIHAD.

hope you will come up with some reference of Hadith or quran to prove claiming Jihad in this situation as obligatory.(if you kill our women and children, we will kill your women and children)

beleive me or not i wish you could come up with some solid reasoning based on islamic sharia to prove your notion right and your objective should be to make the Liberaloons/Moderatoon like me to accept your school of thought. and plz prevent beating the bush.

you once said that haider is badly confused to urstruly. i started thinking at that time that i might be wrong. but i tried to adopt the way to question you to know your point of view where you feel i am worng. but when i asked about the jihad you said it is all written in the sura baqara and didnot tell me a single extra word and started tagging me with different names, which i was not expecting. beleive me i wanted to be corrected. but now i feel that your objectives are different perhaps you are trying to defend your ownselves not islam. you come up with the auguments to prove yourself right against bjkumar and the party. but you never tried to prove the teachings of islam logical and right. and there is hell of difference.

here let me tell you your mail contains lots of confusions. which can be pointed out easily.
for example you tried to prove your notion by giving the example of hiroshima`s nuclear bombing giving it the shape of hypothesis. which is totally wrong because they would have never said it Jihad simply because they are not muslim. wish you had quoted some example from Islamic world.

There are many more. Will elaborate in next mails. come to point.

thanks
haider

iThink, 214

And to Godot, if he has used ``idiot`` to make a point you could have used Bapu`s technique to shame him

I am not “Bapu.” PM cannot be shamed. His only tactic is to immediately resort to profanities and insults. He’s one shameless chootya who is too busy scratching himself. He just beats around the bush, letting out air from his ass while scratching himself.

US muslims show other muslims the right path....

Today`s Today`s Washington Post: Muslims Raise Funds For Catholic Churches

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PM writes in #219 <<< mullah masadi:
Now you`re clutching at straws.
When the Qur`an admonishes: ``Obey Allah and his Rasool``,
Unless there is a higher or at least ANOTHER source of Allah`s injunctions (other than the Quran), it would be a totally REDUNDANT statement. >>>

Very good that you`ve reverted to labels like Mullah because you have nothing to counter any of my arguments, it is actually quite pathetic even behram does better than what you have managed to put up. Allah is a personality, a proper name for God, Rasool is a function which is explained very clearly as being verbatim delivery of the message without addition, deletion interpretation or self-invention. Now read 4:80 which tells you explicity that follwing the rasool is identical with following Allah:



The source of Islam is just the Quran, the reveltion of God, not the God and the prophet, not two Gods just ONE God, therefore ``Muslims`` become idolators when they associate other words attributed by hook or by crook to the messenger, completely alien to the Quran, regardless of what they call them. Finally don`t try to teach me what Islam or the Quran is, I have a decent understanding of it.

He writes <<< When people covert to Islam, it is because they are moved by its sublime message. But Muslims converting to other faiths is simply a sign of some hanky panky. Rrrright! >>>

Not other faiths just Christianity especially when these missionaries make the distribution of basic necessities to the poor dependent upon attending church services, a well documented fact. Regarding the ``Church member`` I was talking about he was a representative of the minority community in the political establishment, I am not concerned with what sect he was with.