Musharraf Spilling the Beans—Why Now?

#565 by zeemacaca

Now tell me, for the umpteenth time, why only `aluminum` caskets `made in USA`.

Abay Bhand, the simple and honest answer would be because politicians and bureaucrats saw an opportunity to make a quick buck.

To further clarify the question, my assertion is that you guys ran short of coffins and had to import these in a hurry from quickest source available. Otherwise, weren`t teakwoord or rosewood `befitting` enough for you?

It could be that they ran out of coffins, so they had to import them. So what`s your point, Bhand Macaca?

#562 Bhaand_macaca says:

They were given the type of funerals befitting fallen soldiers. So what if it is aluminium, teakwoord or rosewood?

Again being evasive and avoiding the question. Now listen up macaca .. read following:

Now tell me, for the umpteenth time, why only `aluminum` caskets `made in USA`.

To further clarify the question, my assertion is that you guys ran short of coffins and had to import these in a hurry from quickest source available. Otherwise, weren`t teakwoord or rosewood `befitting` enough for you?

#563 by okhla99

So Pakistan ``lost`` the war in some views. But surely India did not win in view of the heavy casualties. Undisputedly Kashmir ``won`` as the issue was brought into the centre stage as a major potential flashpoint.

Yaar Okhla, please don`t kill me with respect :-)

First we need to define what winning and losing is in view of the objectives of both sides. Pakistan (now lets be honest and not drag the Mujahideen/terrorists in here) occupied the heights with a view to choke off the strategic Srinagar-Leh highway which is the main link to the Ladakh region and further on Siachen, in order to hurry India into negotiating a withdrawal from the Siachen glacier. India`s objective was to drive out Pakis from the areas occupied by them.

So tell us, who accomplished their goals? Clearly India did. Heavy casualties are a natural consequence of fighting uphill. No one was under the illusion that retaking the heights was going to be a cakewalk.

The Hezbollah suffered greater casualties than the Israelis in the recent invasion, yet who emerged victorious?

Re. the internationalization of the Kashmir dispute, please tell us what is it that Pakistan has accomplished? Have things changed from what they were before? Has any third party mediator been appointed to broker some sort of a deal? Is Pakistan any closer to achieveing its aim than it was before Kargil? A honest answer would be a resounding NO. Heck, Mushy even gave up insistence on UN resolutions.

As for the coffin scam, Indian politicians and bureaucrats combined to mint some money out of the unfortunate circumstances.

Re: # 562

Respected Harish Bhai,

Let us get some basic facts straight.

1. The Mujahideen & the Pak Army had occupied the commanding heights of Kargil giving them a strategic advantage.

2. Huge numbers of Indian army and Air Force ultimately managed to create a situation where NS had to go to US for end to hostilities. The heights were resecured by India.

3. A large number of Indian soldiers died and Coffins had to be imported to carry their remains.

4. For many years, Musharraf kept denying the involvement of the Pakistan Army altogether and then suddenly he decribed it as the ``Army`s finest hour``.

All these facts are granted... now what....some derivations from the above facts.

1. Fact 1: The strategic advantage that Pakistan had meant that there were 4 to 8 (estimates vary) Indian soldiers killed for every defender. Surely you do not believe that inspite of the heavy strategic advantage and the nature of terrain, the casualty ratio was 0.1:1 in favour of India. Or even 1:1. Actually and physically speak to folks in your IDSA. They will tell you the figure of 4:1 (on Tololing) to 8:1 (Tiger Hill).

2. Fact 2: So Pakistan ``lost`` the war in some views. But surely India did not win in view of the heavy casualties. Undisputedly Kashmir ``won`` as the issue was brought into the centre stage as a major potential flashpoint.

3. Fact 3: The despicable Indian bureaucracy turned the coffin import into a money making scam. The equally despicable Pakistani bureaucracy would have behaved identically.

4. Fact 4: Like most politicians on both sides of the border, the President has made an about turn without blinking an eyelid. ``Ukhaar sakko toh ukhaar lo``.

Respectfully submitted.

#530 by zeemacaca

You don`t give up, now do you? Just like those hindus crawling up from the sides. Anyone holding a gun at your back?

Abay Bhand, I won`t give up. If you want to, say so..and maybe I`ll consider letting you off the hook.

Now tell me, for the umpteenth time, why only `aluminum` caskets `made in USA` ? Why not those regular wooden ones in which your everyday hindu/sikh is buried/incinerated/carted off? Or in which even your americans themselves are buried? Did you run short of Teakwood?

Unlike your macacas, who left behind the dead Paki macacas to rot while fleeing with their wounded a$$es, Indian soldiers didn`t meet that fate. They were given the type of funerals befitting fallen soldiers. So what if it is aluminium, teakwoord or rosewood?

Re: # 549 by masadi:

Asadi:

You do not have to justify why Muslims or Hindus or Parsis or Buddhists are not winning the Nobel Prize. The Nobel is neither the beginning nor the end of science. Some scientists even laugh at it. Recall that recently Perelman refused the Nobel for mathematics.

I do not know much about science, but I do know game theory. F. Gul (Princeton) is one of the best game theorist in the younger generation. Hamid Sabourian (along with Kalyan Chatterjee) has done very good work on automaton games (very few people understand the relevance today, these are things for the future). [Pessaran, not a game theorist, is a fantastic Econometrician]. M. Ali Khan (along with R. Vohra) has furthered our understanding about the `core` and its relationship with `general equilibrium`. Ravi Tourkey (a palestinian married to an Indian doctor) is future Nobel Prize material. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. There is nothing wrong or right about Muslims. Everything has to do with hard work, dedication and belief. Though I disagree with you almost completely in almost everything that you say, I think you are going in the right direction. Keep it up and try to underplay your emotions a bit.

Regards.

Cmon guys! take it easy. General`s book was ghost written in his own style. The little thingy about Dick Armitage is a tiny snippet that helped sell the book. The same snippent also helped Dubya`s image as a ``strong willed`` fighter who can move the mountains (rocky or otherwise) when it comes to ``defending the homeland``.

So ya`ll chill out. Musharraf`s remark was good for Bush admin.

For Pakistanis, it is OK too. Isn`t this we happen to know from day-1?

For those making bombastic statements against the general! Hello! This is the world where Chinese make American shoes, and Indians take pride in polishing them. So what? If someone looked out for Pakistani interest?

``People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along?`` (Rodney King).

bjkumar: I am of course joking in #558. Your post finally got me to do what i had been meaning to do for years - become more familiar with the Bhagavad Gita. I have a copy lying around for years now, and have read only a bits and pieces.

bjkumar: Thanks for telling me the ending of the story. :-)

Dr. Hamidm and Dr. Okla: How is the patient doing? In your professional judgement, is there any hope of a return to reality for him or have we lost him?

A reminder to the westoxicated scum from the enslaved lands:

The massa is on the deathbed; he is not yet on life-support but that`ll not be needed. The massa is committing suicide albeit has decided to take the slowboat to oblivion.

The poisons of choice are all the Oons & isms.

`` Aataab-e tazaa paidaa bitn-e geeti sey hua
Asmaan! doobay huay taaroaN kaa matam kab talak?``.........ALLAMA Iqbal.

tr:
A new sun has born out of the womb of the earth
O Sky! for how long this lamentation for the snuffed stars.

---

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,19269-2369375,00.html
.................EXCERPT
.....``But the scale of Europe’s moral crisis is larger than ever. Opposing the war in Iraq was one thing, defensible in the light of events. But opting out of a serious fight against the Taleban, sabotaging efforts to get Iran off its path towards nuclear status, pre-emptively cringing to Muslim intolerance of free speech and criticism, all suggest something quite different.

They imply a slow but insistent collapse of the European will, the steady attrition of the self-preservation instinct. Its effects can be seen not only in the political field, but in other ways — the startling decline of birth rates across the continent that represent a sort of self-inflicted genocide; the refusal to confront the harsh realities of a global economy.

It may well be that history will judge that Europe’s decline came at the very moment of its apparent triumph. The traumas of the first half of the 20th century have combined with the economic successes of the second half to induce a collective loss of will. Great civilisations die not in the end because of external force majeure but because internally the will to thrive is sapped.

The symptoms of this moral collapse may be far away from the affluent and still largely peaceful cities and towns of the old continent — in the mountains of Afghanistan, the diplomatic reception halls of Tehran and the angry Pope-effigy-burning streets of the Middle East. But there should be no doubt that it is closer to home where the disease has taken hold.