Musharraf Spilling the Beans—Why Now?

#692 by behram1

C`mon Behram ... hey let`s not argue about history because I have facts and you don`t. You rely upon rants and conjectures and I give you undisputed historical facts and you begin to run for cover. Such as you say ``winners write history``, how much of Islamic history was written by Persian Muslims themselves during Abbasids? ``Arab tribes, and they had no land per se``. sure they were bedouins but they were Arabs and the land belonged to the conquering Persian Empire right? So what does that prove? Persian imperialism while you`re blaming Arab imperialism? No other religion has flourished so much in such a short span of 80 years. Yeah right ... and it is still prospering after 1400 years .. so? No sword now is there? ...Yazdegard III...Thank God for Ali, who intervene and married these youngsters to his sons Hassan and Hussain. This account has been long dismissed and even the Shias now do not believe anyone named Shehr Bano ever existed.

But having said the above, do take into account that my best friend in school was Rustam Sanjana and I`ve visited the Aatish Ghar many times. So I respect Zoroasters being the very first mono-deity thinkers though I have a problem with their clannishness.

Cheers!

Re: # 690 by zeemax on October 8, 2006 9:53am PT

Dear Zeemax:

You want hard facts about the ruthlessness of Muslim conquerors of Zoroastrian Persians which I have none. As you very well know, as always, winners write history. It becomes illogical for the Persian Dynasty in its zennith to attack the Arabs. As you very well know their was no Arab Dynasty in those days. There were Arab tribes, and they had no land per se. Most of that land belonged to the Persians or sometimes to the Romans.

Actually, it was your assertion that Islam was not spread through force that become totally illogical. No other religion has flourished so much in such a short span of 80 years.

I want to make you aware that Taliban is a terrorist group, and are opium dealers.

{I think what you`re getting at is that the Arabs want to bring back their 7th century empire to the exclusion and subjugation of all other kinds of Muslims. That`s a startling observation and one I`ve never heard before.}

That should not be startling at all. Just look at some of the jihadi posts on this chowk, and those who want to impose Sharia Laws on the dar-ul-haram. Trust me I am not at all interested in learning Arabic lingo, or the Arabic mannersim of jazaak-ullah, fitrat-ullah, subhanullah, bus-kar-allah, etc.

{As for how the Arab/Persian conflict began, you must remember that the first battles were not even fought on Persian soil but on Arab soil i.e. Iraq with Persian attempts to retake the Arab areas captured by Muslims after Persians lost these to the Byzantines, which the Persians did win back in Battle Of The Bridge in 634 AD and were sitting on the fringes of Arabian Peninsula.}

What Arab soil? They were bedouins, and had no territory per se. Mesopotamia was always considered to be domain of Persian rulers. No wonder the sharia loving muslims want to get the whole world.

{Even the decisive victory of Muslims was at Qadissiyah in Iraq and nowhere near Persia. So what `tax money and all the Persian wealth` was Umar`s motive? }

So, in your opinion, where was Persia? Did Saad-bin-wakaas and his troops not go after the family of Yazdegard III all the way close to Alborz mountains? Did the conquering Arabs not want to sell Kings daughters as slaves. Thank God for Ali, who intervene and married these youngsters to his sons Hassan and Hussain.

{Persia itself and Egypt later fell to Muslims as a natural consequence of the defeat of the Sassanid Persian Empire right on Arab lands, and not by Muslim invasions on Persia. }

How can that be possible? How can you make this rubbish statement? Are you suggesting, as a natural consequences of the brutality of the conquering Arabs?

{I put to strict proof of this. Surely an event like that must be recorded somewhere. No conjectures of your own please as to how entire Persia was converted. }

Ask a Jew to provide records of their persecution. They are still over 20 million of Jews left, and then you are ask a Zoroastrian to provide you with a record of Muslim brutality.

Here you go with the spin. Most rulers of the muslim world were killed by their own.
{But are you suggesting the slave was forcibly converted? That would be ludicrous because the dispute was about Umar`s judgement re the slave`s wages and not conversion.}

I was not making that argument, and since you brought this up, why have slaves to begin with? Did the Prophet not free Bilal the slave? So why the rulers of Islamic society still practicing slavery?


{give them regular well-equipped matching armies and they`ll fight pitched battles like your Sassanids and won`t have to resort to Guerrilla warfare.}

O! What was given to those who won the world after winning the Zoroastrian Persia?

{Do you consider yourself as Ajami or Arabi?

I`m not Arbi. That`s for sure. As for Ajmi, I`ll need to ask my Dad :-) }

I always knew that and thank God for that. Now all you have to do is straighten yourself up and follow your Prophets admonitions against looking down on the Ajamis, including yours truly.

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 682

Tahmad Sahib:

``I think all you and anil and arjun are doing is trying to cook your ``chhalli`` on someone else`s fire. But rest assured - the world isnt looking towards hinduism as a solution to anything either.``

Allow me to correct, the world is not looking toward religions any longer for any solution. The religions place outside one`s mind space is being cut-off, be it Islam, Hindu, Christianity or whatever.

You are wrong about my position, I do not know about others.

Anil

#685 by behram1

Dear Behram,

Your arguments are going all over the place and you`re not focusing on any central thesis that you want to assert. It started with Taliban, then you went into this Arbi/Ajmi thing, then you claim persecution and holocaust of Zoroastrians, then you argue quite needlessly that Persians were better fighters than Arabs, and Turks were the best of them all, then you flood your post with conjectures and factual inaccuraciesrelating to ALL of the above without quoting any hard facts.

Hey, what exactly is it what you want to argue?

I think what you`re getting at is that the Arabs want to bring back their 7th century empire to the exclusion and subjugation of all other kinds of Muslims. That`s a startling observation and one I`ve never heard before. Anyway, let`s continue for a bit:

...what type of terror attacks would a rich Zoroastrian Persian empire conduct on the province of bedounistan? And why? What could they possibly gain? .... the ruling elite wanted to get tax money and all the Persian wealth ..... after that message was rejected by King Anoushirwan Adil who killed the messenger from the Prophet himself.

I thought the prophet`s letter was to Khosrau II and not to Anoushirwan Adil whose reign had ended in 579 AD i.e. much before prophethood, and no messengers were killed but Khosrau II had merely torn up the letter. But I guess this an honest error.

As for how the Arab/Persian conflict began, you must remember that the first battles were not even fought on Persian soil but on Arab soil i.e. Iraq with Persian attempts to retake the Arab areas captured by Muslims after Persians lost these to the Byzantines, which the Persians did win back in Battle Of The Bridge in 634 AD and were sitting on the fringes of Arabian Peninsula. Even the decisive victory of Muslims was at Qadissiyah in Iraq and nowhere near Persia. So what `tax money and all the Persian wealth` was Umar`s motive?

Persia itself and Egypt later fell to Muslims as a natural consequence of the defeat of the Sassanid Persian Empire right on Arab lands, and not by Muslim invasions on Persia.

...was there a holocaust of the Zoroastrians? Yes....otherwise how else....etc

I put to strict proof of this. Surely an event like that must be recorded somewhere. No conjectures of your own please as to how entire Persia was converted.

Was Umar not killed by a recently converted Persian carpenter?

Indeed. And there can be no bigger proof of Umar Bin Khattab`s not being an imperial emperor that an ordinary slave dissatisfied with his judgement was able to access and assassinate the Great Umar right on the street with no security around the Caliph. But are you suggesting the slave was forcibly converted? That would be ludicrous because the dispute was about Umar`s judgement re the slave`s wages and not conversion.

If there is no Arabs in this fold, then why are they fighting like cowards? Where is the true Persian amongst them?

As I`ve said many times, give them regular well-equipped matching armies and they`ll fight pitched battles like your Sassanids and won`t have to resort to Guerrilla warfare.

``Good Thoughts, Good Words, and Good Deeds``

I`m sure this would have been in Khusro IIs mind, the son of Nosherwan-e-Adil, when he killed his benefactor and father-in-law Rome`s older King, who had given him refuge when he had to flee from his country and who had kept him like a son and even given his daughter`s hand in marriage to him, over a dispute on his appointee Phocas, and then ordered his army to fight the Romans, the Persians` allies.

Do you consider yourself as Ajami or Arabi?

I`m not Arbi. That`s for sure. As for Ajmi, I`ll need to ask my Dad :-)

Cheers!

Here`s yet another example of Hindu/Zionist/Christian conspiracy to hold Muslims down:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/5407530.stm

An extract:


[Bangladesh running on empty
By Roland Buerk
BBC News, Bangladesh



The Bangladesh government is trying to find a solution to the country`s electricity problems, but, so far, without success.


Mirpur has been worst hit by protests over the power shortages
It was the blackout during evening prayers that was the final straw, said the residents of Mirpur in the north of the capital.

After a day of Ramadan fasting, nothing to drink, no food and no smoking, they had gathered in the mosques where they would have to stand for an hour and a half of ritual.

The only relief from the wet heat was the fans overhead.

And when they stuttered to a halt, grumbling resentment about the daily hours of power cuts turned to rage.

Crowds gathered in the streets.

They smashed and burned the local electricity substations.

Control rooms of the power distribution company were attacked, the metal panels kicked to pieces, the dials and switches broken. And when the police arrived some of their vehicles were destroyed too. ]


Now why would this happen in an Islamic country?

Wait! I know! They do not have ENOUGH Islam.

Some MORE Islam, and things would be hunky-dory.



Hint: Bangladesh does not have any appreciable petroleum deposits

from 686
How true!
Haaa haaa Haaa.
No Freudian slip; No typo--its their education stupid.

lets enjoy it again
beraham1 @686 says:

``He, a physician, abiding by the Hypocratic Oath he had sworn, dispensed the quantity of glucose his conscience permitted.``

Truer ``words`` were never spoken! this is the skill in english-language which is not entirely unexpected from the ones from Ba Ba Blacksheep or Totaa-mainaa school system. Even becoming amreekan cannot undo the urge-to-be-enslaved genes acquired at mama parsi.

and their claim ito fame is english in goraa-accent!

It is said that even if one washes it with the best soap & douse it with best perfume, the turd will still be not be rendered Paak.

Re: # 684

``.. You all need more proof of the hypocritical/dimwit/illogical nature of these misleaders and appeasers of the West? Why is he acting in this irrational manner, well his religion, his worship revolves around the white man, his ``quran`` is the ``Anglo Saxon Ethos``, and his messenger is whoever happens to the ruler in the USA. This is what his ``Islam`` is about, he is a munafiq and a mushriq, an idolator who unconditionally worships tyrants and barbarians just because they have wealth and they are white. This is the sum total of his knowledge. He is a dispicable ba stard, an enemy of the poor, and a backstabber of the Muslims. Know his kind well- insult his masters and see how fast his feigned politeness goes down the drain. Have no doubt about it, Allah knows well how to deal with his kind, they are the worst of creation, as defined in the Quran, worse than the worst Hindu Muslim haters, recognize this mindset.........``

You have just proved every one that you are really a two-taka mullah.......this is the only conclusive proof you could give so far on the chowk!!

p.s- How come Asadi could post the ``Basstard`` word without getting filtered by the chowk filter? Does he have some special administrative rights??. I could not get his original quote though the filter. How could he post that world at all , I wonder???

And Zeemax:

Besides getting free toilet papers from the British Raj, here is one way of how Parsees serve their country:

http://dawn.com/weekly/cowas/cowas.htm

``What history does not record is that the British surgeon general, responsible for keeping Gandhi alive when he indulged in his numerous ‘fasts’, had a secret weapon, a brother doctor, a member of the distinguished Indian Medical Service, Colonel Nariman Jamshedjee Sohrabjee Faredoonjee Mehta. Each time the Mahatma embarked on a ‘fast’ he would be held, ‘protected’ in the Aga Khan’s palace at Poona, or at some other palatial location. Colonel Mehta would be posted to the fasting site and instructed to “ensure that the old geezer does not die.”

He, a physician, abiding by the Hypocratic Oath he had sworn, dispensed the quantity of glucose his conscience permitted.``

And how does a jihadi muslim immigrant in the west serve their country? eh!

Re: # 674 by zeemax on October 7, 2006 9:53pm PT

Dear Zeemax:

Thank you for an enlightening response, and for acknowledging most behavior of the conquering Arabs, although you did not consider the war with Zoroastrian Persia as unjust and unfair. You called it a pre-emption. You have taken the same logic (of G.W.) which I agree when it comes to the present day terror attacks.

But, let us remain with the conquering Arabs for a while. I have always wondered what type of terror attacks would a rich Zoroastrian Persian empire conduct on the province of bedounistan? And why? What could they possibly gain?

{I suspect it was more for the same doctrine of `pre-emption` rather than spreading of Islam by force and persecution of the Zoroastrians.}

Well, Islam was just a tool of enforcement in those days, and the ruling elite wanted to get tax money and all the Persian wealth.

{After Abu Bakr had consolidated the Arabian peninsula, Umar had to remove threats at all borders to secure the same. }

And was that also the reason to remove threats from the horn of Africa? But, why would a rich Eygyptian domain be of any threat to the people of bedounistan? After all these rich people were Prophets traders were they not?

Zeemax, why do you have this hocus pocus theory about those rulers of Arabia?

{After all, Umar/Saad bin Abi Waqas were military generals and not mystics. However, was there a holocaust of the Zoroastrians?}

Yes, otherwise how else can you suggest that the vast Zoroastrian Persian empire was converted to Islamic without total annihilation of their values. O! I forgot they were all waiting in lines to get the stamp of approval in being followers of the Arab world? How is it all logical? If there was not physical violence then why so many rich Zoroastrians had to flee to the shelters in Sanjan, India.

{When did Muslims `wreak so much havoc on those poor Ajami soul` in your words? }

As soon as you convert somebody that is exactly when havoc is wreaked on some-one`s soul. Would you not consider this of converting others into your fold as such a behavior?

{Certainly, there were mass conversions mainly due to the emergence of the vital and unprecedentedly potent force of Islam, and none by the sword, though partly the imposition of Jizya would have accounted for some. }

O! yeah. So Saad-bin-Waqaas was sent, just to deliver the message even after that message was rejected by King Anoushirwan Adil who killed the messenger from the Prophet himself. Under what divinity right did Umar went ahead and conducted war with the Persians? Was Umar not killed by a recently converted Persian carpenter?


{And what happened where they indeed were? Algeria and recently the Palestinian territories? Fair and free elections in the Muslim world are inimical to the interests of G7-10.}

Indeed, we must not allow thugs and terrorists to cloak themselves in the guise of democracy and then create mayhem on the enlightened world. Just look at those in NWFP and Baluchistan of Pakistan. Pakistan`s Musharraf by tying the hands of the liberal forces in Pakistan allowed the bearded ones to be the ruling class.

{..... Pakistan handed over to a military dictator for 11 years who spared no effort in tearing apart the fabric of the entire Pak society and fighting proxy wars. }

Indeed, and that is exactly where the indoctrination of Deobandi/Wahabbi philosophy penetrated to moderate texture of the Pakistani muslims.

Zeemax, if innocent people is killed in the cafeteria, and if your next to kin gets killed then it is terrorism. By and large Jihadi muslims are killing women and children to bring their brand of Islam, and that is terrorism. When the taliban forces hide and cannot fight like a true soldier with the force of enlightenment then that is terrorism. If there is no Arabs in this fold, then why are they fighting like cowards? Where is the true Persian amongst them?

{These deobandi/wahabi etc noises have all been invented by the media think tanks in the US to divide the so-called moderates from the extremists. I neither understand these nor do these make any kind of sense to me at all.}

Well, then maybe you should start understanding this new technology of the terror world of the Islamic forces. They generate new names by the dozens, and instantly, like the one I generated about Abu-Musab-Al-virbrating-mad-mullah-o-crat-al-masadi. Now, isn`t that just a fascinating title for the uninitiated ears.

{I don`t know whether I am wahabi or deobandi or whatever; but what I do know is that Jihad is a basic tenet of Islam to resist occupation & oppression, in any form and with any means; violent or non-violent; and that`s what I support. }

First of all it was the muslims who for whatever reasons started their ridiculous philosophy of yesteryears of fight and win. Those days are long gone, and the Jihadi elements must understand this. Heck, the best of your fighters were the Turks, hardly an Arab. And the Persians, who were constantly at war since before Prophet Zarathushtra`s time.

But, those two ethnic groups would fight like a man, unlike these cowards who hide behind women and children.

{C`mon now don`t give me a runaround. If your community is doing well under hindu raj, or Muslim Raj in Pak, or gora raj ... for some people that is good enough and gets you a month`s supply of toilet rolls. }

No, Zeemax, I have never been known to give anybody a run around. Unlike your teachings of ``taquyya`` I was taught ``Good Thoughts, Good Words, and Good Deeds``. I am not in the business of converting others into my belief.

Finally, Zeemax, you chose not to answer the main question: Do you consider yourself as Ajami or Arabi? You must have an answer because it was your Prophet who had divided that world into Ajam and Arab.

Respectfully submitted,

tahmed writes <<< hamidm: what i dont understand is why you are so fascinated by these lowlife like echoboom and masadi. you are a talented writer, and i have seen a number of posters on chowk say in past years they come here just to read your posts >>

Once again boys and girls, note this post by this worshipper of the West that is fast in retreat, defeated and ruined. He says 1)lowlife 2) two-taka 3)mullah hates, this in response to class stratification statistics in the USA that show extreme inequality- and this is his response and then he cries that others use insults against him. You all need more proof of the hypocritical/dimwit/illogical nature of these misleaders and appeasers of the West? Why is he acting in this irrational manner, well his religion, his worship revolves around the white man, his ``quran`` is the ``Anglo Saxon Ethos``, and his messenger is whoever happens to the ruler in the USA. This is what his ``Islam`` is about, he is a munafiq and a mushriq, an idolator who unconditionally worships tyrants and barbarians just because they have wealth and they are white. This is the sum total of his knowledge. He is a dispicable bastard, an enemy of the poor, and a backstabber of the Muslims. Know his kind well- insult his masters and see how fast his feigned politeness goes down the drain. Have no doubt about it, Allah knows well how to deal with his kind, they are the worst of creation, as defined in the Quran, worse than the worst Hindu Muslim haters, recognize this mindset.

hamidm: what i dont understand is why you are so fascinated by these lowlife like echoboom and masadi. you are a talented writer, and i have seen a number of posters on chowk say in past years they come here just to read your posts.

dont get dragged down to their level - ths is all these two-taka mullah-hates can do after all. why not write something uplifting and positive instead??

#668 krishna: I think all you and anil and arjun are doing is trying to cook your ``chhalli`` on someone else`s fire. But rest assured - the world isnt looking towards hinduism as a solution to anything either.

Re: # 677


The so called glorious days of the theological states was based on a perverse economy of slave peddling, rent seeking from the subdued, rapes and plunders and peddling in loots in the name of religious wars.

No wonder those ages were rightly called the ``Dark Ages``...

For the WESTOXICATED scum....who delusionally are clutching at straws and hopinthat their massa wins against muslims.

That has NEVER happened, it shall NEVER happen.

The goraa has been crapping EVERYWHERE, and Allah has placed them there so that the world can witness in Living Color & in Real Time by their own media the bodybag lottery draw
........where the muslims are winning BIG time.

Bigger Jackpot draw-days are drawing near--INSHALLAH.

Let the liberaloons, secularoons, mirzaoons and other Oon Oons & isms drown
themselves in their merlots & harlots.

---

Asia
Five years hence, Taliban on path of resurgence

Posted by admin on 2006/10/8 6:18:58
Islamabad/New Delhi, Oct 8 (IANS) Five years after a determined US-led offensive ousted them from power in Kabul, the Taliban is on the path of resurgence in Afghanistan in total defiance of the Western military might.

The militia is virtually calling the shots in Afghanistan`s southern and eastern provinces, which is more than a half of the beleaguered nation, halting its reconstruction and development.

The writ of President Hamid Karzai remains confined to Kabul and major cities of the northern half despite the backing he has of the West. With more and more of their soldiers dying, Western countries are under pressure to quit Afghanistan.

The US, which appears keen to concentrate its efforts in Iraq, has begun the process of formally passing the military leadership to the NATO-led forces. The 31,000-strong force, mainly drawn from the US, Britain, Denmark, Holland and Canada, is to be augmented in the coming months to be able to spread their operations to areas where the Taliban is trying to dominate.

Five years after launching ``Operation Enduring Freedom`` and two years after the launch of more localised but equally fierce operations, the US-led forces have failed to bring peace to the troubled country.US President George W. Bush last month played host to Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf and Karzai, who got locked in a public spat over the whereabouts of Al Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden and Taliban leader Mullah Omar.The Taliban has displayed the capacity to grow while out of power and has incorporate new allies like Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, a one-time Afghan prime minister and a leading force against the anti-Soviet jehad in the 1980s.

The militia reportedly has a fighting force of 30,000-plus, a figure roughly the same when they ruled from Kabul, and enjoy massive firepower. Their manpower comes mainly from the seminaries run along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border.

Even as a large number of Al Qaeda functionaries are supposed to have moved to Iraq, which emerged as the new battle ground since 2003, a substantial number, dubbed `renegades` and `remnants` by the Western media, have remained active in Afghanistan, thanks to the safe haven provided to them by their tribal `hosts` in Pakistan`s Waziristan province.

An agreement the Musharraf regime reached with the tribal chiefs after two years of military operations in the region has a nodding approval of the Bush administration but is viewed with great suspicion by Western strategic analysts because many of the Taliban fighters are known to use Waziristan for rest and medical treatment.

Using the mountainous terrain to the advantage, the Taliban and their supporters have targeted foreigners and locals engaged in development projects.

Their victims also include government officials and policemen appointed by the Karzai government besides schools and health centres, particularly those frequented by women. And though they too have suffered many deaths, the Taliban has vowed to fight on.

Their role in the manifold increase in the production of narcotics as a source of drug money for arms remains a matter of intense debate.

On the eve of the fifth anniversary of the US-led attack that led to its ouster from power, the Taliban asked all foreign forces to quit the country if they wanted to end the fighting.

Taliban spokesperson Abdul Hye Mutmain said the Taliban had no conflict with anyone outside Afghanistan.

``The foreigners attacked Afghanistan and we are using our right to defend our homeland. The Taliban resistance has become stronger while the attack gave nothing to the US and its allies except more bodies,`` he argued in an interview with the Afghan Islamic Press (AIP), quoted widely in the Pakistani media.

He also ruled out the possibility of Taliban holding talks with the Afghan government or joining the regime led by President Karzai. --By Mahendra Ved

Re: # 677

Massaddi Mian:

Good luck.

Anil

Let me correct myself when I write

<<< No system that has produced the kind of inequality that this one has world-wide can be hinted as being better than any system, Muslim, Christian, Hindu or whatever. >>>

I would like to exclude hindu from the above since just like the US, the Hindu system would also be a caste society, and thus cannot be said to be better than the US system but is quite similar. I stand corrected