Musharraf Spilling the Beans—Why Now?

Re: # 672

``the Quran yet you make claims about what Islam is as if you are an expert...``

What are my claims about Islam?

You seem to be reading challenged too.... If you extensive your word about description of your reading and knowledge of the U.S. You probably delusions of grandeur as well.


For your benefit I quote what I wrote to you:

``You are indeed pointing toward a reality. Yes, you can call this reality a systemic disease or a problem. Staying stuck, or crying about it through exaggeration is not going to help.

Every economic system - including Islamic system if there is any - has it, and recognize it. Why else there will be Zakat? You call it systemic - implyng problem, I call it part of a system.

A system that provides outward and upward mobility is a better system. Hamidm is part of the solution in such a system. You should also become part of the solution.

I challenge you to point any system be from Allah, God, Bhagwan, or imperfect humans that does not have what you call systemic problem, or I call as a part of the system. Zakat hardly provides outward and upward mobility. Chopping of hands and limbs is hardly a justice to allow reforming or chance to move out and up. I may not have studied Koran - tried once gave up - but I have studied Zakat and Islamic banking. Neither provide what I call as outward and upward mobility from the corner of the system with sytemic problem per you, or that corner in the system. Soviets failed, Chinese failed. Islam as an economic system failed... yes... I just said it.... You simply put your brain power and focus in that this corner, and don`t give a chance to see the beauty of the complete system. ``

Hope you can comprehend the second time what is written above. Can I tell you, please listen to Hamidm, as I am a non-muslim whom you will not listen, otherwise your knowledge of social systems is confused, and economic system is non-existant.

If your answer can only include ``Ad Hominem`` (you do love this phrase, don`t you) use Islamic twist or bigot etc, then I only say please ignore what I have written. You and I have nothing in common to talk or discuss.

Hamidm sahib has more patience than I have, Massaddi Mian.

Anil

Re Afghanistan, this may be relevant ... transplanted from UP:

Well, Sadna, this woman is Sonali Kolhatkar who has lived and travelled extensively inside Afghanistan right up to the Northern borders, and has co-authored a book about it titled ``Bleeding Afghanistan: Washington, Warlords and the Propaganda of Silence``. Did you watch the interview video? Do it if you haven`t and you`ll see her sincerity. She has no axes on the grind and I find that admirable.

When she says ``Islamic Fundamentalism`` instead of ``Taliban`` to which you object, she`s right on the dot because there is only a very subtle difference or a thin line between the two in the context of the general Afghan population. Let`s put it this way ... if an Afghan is forced to become a hardliner, he automatically becomes a Taliban.

Have you ever heard of part-time Taliban? This is a new phenomenon amongst youth where they work in the fields during the day and become Taliban fighters by night. This is described in the interview as well and the authors term it as neo-Taliban.

For anyone to even think of defeating such a nation-wide tidal wave would at best be, foolhardy. Taliban must be engaged in dialogue and paid war reperations immediately, and brought back and restored in power to get Afghanistan back in world community, otherwise a lawless-narco state with the best war-hardened and skilled battle-machine in the entire world with an abundance of recruits from all over the world will become the nightmare of the entire western civilization.

Do mark my words.

#661 by behram1

Dear Behram,

......Yes, for the most part it is the Arbi/Ajmi thing in my thinking......

Okay so your beef is with the Muslim conquest of the Zoroastrian Persian empire. I suspect it was more for the same doctrine of `pre-emption` rather than spreading of Islam by force and persecution of the Zoroastrians. After Abu Bakr had consolidated the Arabian peninsula, Umar had to remove threats at all borders to secure the same. After all, Umar/Saad bin Abi Waqas were military generals and not mystics. However, was there a holocaust of the Zoroastrians? Or even the Byzantines?

When did Muslims `wreak so much havoc on those poor Ajami soul` in your words?

Certainly, there were mass conversions mainly due to the emergence of the vital and unprecedentedly potent force of Islam, and none by the sword, though partly the imposition of Jizya would have accounted for some.

....Where do we find open and fair election in the muslim world?....

And what happened where they indeed were? Algeria and recently the Palestinian territories? Fair and free elections in the Muslim world are inimical to the interests of G7-10.

It must be fresh in the memories of many interactors how dollars had flowed into Pakistan for the PNA movement against ZAB, and once he had been removed, the PNA too had been cast aside and Pakistan handed over to a military dictator for 11 years who spared no effort in tearing apart the fabric of the entire Pak society and fighting proxy wars.

So the world is right to call these fighters from the Islamic world as terrorists. Why were you complaining about the terrorists in Afghanistan in the first place?

If Paks fight in Chechnya it is Jihad. If Arabs fought in AF it was Jihad. The only terrorism was what Carlos the Jackal did, not any of the aforeasaid varieties.

In any event, there`re no Arabs fighting in AF now. It`s only the Pak Taliban and the Afghan Taliban from both sides of the border.

Was it not then the wishes and desires of the Deobandi brand of Islam as envisioned by Zia-ul-Haq to fire brand his society with the invasion from Saudi Wahabis?

These deobandi/wahabi etc noises have all been invented by the media think tanks in the US to divide the so-called moderates from the extremists. I neither understand these nor do these make any kind of sense to me at all. I don`t know whether I am wahabi or deobandi or whatever; but what I do know is that Jihad is a basic tenet of Islam to resist occupation & oppression, in any form and with any means; violent or non-violent; and that`s what I support.

Can we extend this logic to the Zoroastrian (ajami) Persians, as well?

You mean the resurgence logic? Of-course ... why not. I think Iran is at-least following the Persian logic still (as did the Shah) though not Zoroastrian for obvious reasons, but certainly why don`t you rally your community? Is it because becoming slaves and subjects of others is easier? That certainly appears to be the case to me. C`mon now don`t give me a runaround. If your comminity is doing well under hindu raj, or Muslim Raj in Pak, or gora raj ... for some people that is good enough and gets you a month`s supply of toilet rolls.

For Muslims though, it is not enough. There`s a vital difference in mindsets....whether Arbi or Ajmi or black Somalian or Ethiopian or Sudanese.

Your concluding four points are pure tush and poppycock. Do not require comment.

Cheers!

Re: # 674 by zeemax on October 7, 2006 9:53pm PT

Dear Zeemax:

Thank you for an enlightening response, and for acknowledging most behavior of the conquering Arabs, although you did not consider the war with Zoroastrian Persia as unjust and unfair. You called it a pre-emption. You have taken the same logic (of G.W.) which I agree when it comes to the present day terror attacks.

But, let us remain with the conquering Arabs for a while. I have always wondered what type of terror attacks would a rich Zoroastrian Persian empire conduct on the province of bedounistan? And why? What could they possibly gain?

{I suspect it was more for the same doctrine of `pre-emption` rather than spreading of Islam by force and persecution of the Zoroastrians.}

Well, Islam was just a tool of enforcement in those days, and the ruling elite wanted to get tax money and all the Persian wealth.

{After Abu Bakr had consolidated the Arabian peninsula, Umar had to remove threats at all borders to secure the same. }

And was that also the reason to remove threats from the horn of Africa? But, why would a rich Eygyptian domain be of any threat to the people of bedounistan? After all these rich people were Prophets traders were they not?

Zeemax, why do you have this hocus pocus theory about those rulers of Arabia?

{After all, Umar/Saad bin Abi Waqas were military generals and not mystics. However, was there a holocaust of the Zoroastrians?}

Yes, otherwise how else can you suggest that the vast Zoroastrian Persian empire was converted to Islamic without total annihilation of their values. O! I forgot they were all waiting in lines to get the stamp of approval in being followers of the Arab world? How is it all logical? If there was not physical violence then why so many rich Zoroastrians had to flee to the shelters in Sanjan, India.

{When did Muslims `wreak so much havoc on those poor Ajami soul` in your words? }

As soon as you convert somebody that is exactly when havoc is wreaked on some-one`s soul. Would you not consider this of converting others into your fold as such a behavior?

{Certainly, there were mass conversions mainly due to the emergence of the vital and unprecedentedly potent force of Islam, and none by the sword, though partly the imposition of Jizya would have accounted for some. }

O! yeah. So Saad-bin-Waqaas was sent, just to deliver the message even after that message was rejected by King Anoushirwan Adil who killed the messenger from the Prophet himself. Under what divinity right did Umar went ahead and conducted war with the Persians? Was Umar not killed by a recently converted Persian carpenter?


{And what happened where they indeed were? Algeria and recently the Palestinian territories? Fair and free elections in the Muslim world are inimical to the interests of G7-10.}

Indeed, we must not allow thugs and terrorists to cloak themselves in the guise of democracy and then create mayhem on the enlightened world. Just look at those in NWFP and Baluchistan of Pakistan. Pakistan`s Musharraf by tying the hands of the liberal forces in Pakistan allowed the bearded ones to be the ruling class.

{..... Pakistan handed over to a military dictator for 11 years who spared no effort in tearing apart the fabric of the entire Pak society and fighting proxy wars. }

Indeed, and that is exactly where the indoctrination of Deobandi/Wahabbi philosophy penetrated to moderate texture of the Pakistani muslims.

Zeemax, if innocent people is killed in the cafeteria, and if your next to kin gets killed then it is terrorism. By and large Jihadi muslims are killing women and children to bring their brand of Islam, and that is terrorism. When the taliban forces hide and cannot fight like a true soldier with the force of enlightenment then that is terrorism. If there is no Arabs in this fold, then why are they fighting like cowards? Where is the true Persian amongst them?

{These deobandi/wahabi etc noises have all been invented by the media think tanks in the US to divide the so-called moderates from the extremists. I neither understand these nor do these make any kind of sense to me at all.}

Well, then maybe you should start understanding this new technology of the terror world of the Islamic forces. They generate new names by the dozens, and instantly, like the one I generated about Abu-Musab-Al-virbrating-mad-mullah-o-crat-al-masadi. Now, isn`t that just a fascinating title for the uninitiated ears.

{I don`t know whether I am wahabi or deobandi or whatever; but what I do know is that Jihad is a basic tenet of Islam to resist occupation & oppression, in any form and with any means; violent or non-violent; and that`s what I support. }

First of all it was the muslims who for whatever reasons started their ridiculous philosophy of yesteryears of fight and win. Those days are long gone, and the Jihadi elements must understand this. Heck, the best of your fighters were the Turks, hardly an Arab. And the Persians, who were constantly at war since before Prophet Zarathushtra`s time.

But, those two ethnic groups would fight like a man, unlike these cowards who hide behind women and children.

{C`mon now don`t give me a runaround. If your community is doing well under hindu raj, or Muslim Raj in Pak, or gora raj ... for some people that is good enough and gets you a month`s supply of toilet rolls. }

No, Zeemax, I have never been known to give anybody a run around. Unlike your teachings of ``taquyya`` I was taught ``Good Thoughts, Good Words, and Good Deeds``. I am not in the business of converting others into my belief.

Finally, Zeemax, you chose not to answer the main question: Do you consider yourself as Ajami or Arabi? You must have an answer because it was your Prophet who had divided that world into Ajam and Arab.

Respectfully submitted,

behram/rumsfeld <<< Coca-Cola recently opened a $25 million bottling plant in Kabul, and other large multinational companies are considering opportunities in Afghanistan. >>>

Amazing, isn`t it, the so-called government of Kabul cannot open its offices outside of Kabul but multinationals are popping up all over the place according to Rumsfeld. What is equally baffling is that the census bureau has been publishing the world data sheet every year since 2003 and we don`t see the effects of this increased health care and education in its numbers. Maybe the effects of them are ``hidden`` or were transported to Pakistan just like the Iraqi WMDs

Anil writes <<< Re: # 649 Massaddi Mian:

``....your bigotry against Islam aside,...``

If you can keep such comments and attacks out, you and I can discuss this subject. I have studied and actually tried to do something about this issue in New Delhi, without any color of religion. >>>

My comments are not just thrown out there. You claim you have never studied (neither read) the Quran yet you make claims about what Islam is as if you are an expert, and all those comments are negative- this tells me that it is bigotry that guides your claims- knowledge certainly does not. On the other hand when I comment on US society, I have done extensive study on it, I just don`t throw out stuff, as I have on the Quran, which in most cases goes against the traditional understanding. That is the difference between us in this issue, a difference of knowledge about the issues that are being discussed.

hamid writes <<< boy`s and girls, don`t listen to masadi, listen to me, if you want to live the american dream instead of living in a basement and eating government cheese >>>

By all means boys and girls, listen to hamid if you want to gamble your lives away, you have a greater chance of riches in this system by pulling yourself out of school and trying your luck at the lottery than you will ever have to reach the top through your hard work. That is how this society is rigged. Use the facts and learn or you`ll be chasing a pipe dream with lots of disappointment at the end, especially if you happen to be non-white and female. Of course the geniuses like hamid and tahmed will tell you the shape of the basement I reside in and the kind of food I eat, their only argument against Krugman was that he is a `liberal`, labels not facts guide their discourse. Take your pick, Fact of a caste society or the Horatio Alger Myth...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/06/AR2006100601373.html

Afghanistan: Five Years Later

By Donald H. Rumsfeld
Saturday, October 7, 2006; Page A23

On Oct. 7, 2001, President Bush spoke from the Treaty Room of the White House to announce the beginning of Operation Enduring Freedom, a mission designed to disrupt and destroy al-Qaeda operations in Afghanistan and the regime that had harbored and supported Osama bin Laden`s terrorist network.

It was never going to be an easy mission. Afghanistan was among the world`s poorest nations, with little political or economic infrastructure. Nearly three decades of war, drought and a Soviet occupation by hundreds of thousands of troops had yielded a broken, lawless nation.

Yet from halfway around the world -- with but a few weeks` notice -- coalition forces were charged with securing a landlocked, mountainous country that history had dubbed the ``graveyard`` of great powers.

Given the circumstances, it is not surprising that military experts and columnists raised the specter of Vietnam and ``quagmires`` -- both before and during combat operations. They cited the forbidding terrain, brutal weather and the Soviet Union`s total failure.

Within weeks of our launching combat operations, however, the Taliban regime had been defeated, consigning yet another cruel regime to the dustbin of history. Coalition forces took control of Kabul, and since then the Afghan people have fashioned a new constitution and successfully held the first democratic presidential election in their long history.

Now, five years after the start of Operation Enduring Freedom, another signpost has been marked on Afghanistan`s long, difficult road to stability: NATO took control of security operations for the entire country on Thursday, as well as the 24 Provincial Reconstruction Teams that are strengthening infrastructure across the nation.

This is an unprecedented moment for the NATO alliance. In 2001 NATO forces were for the first time deployed beyond their traditional European borders. Today the number of troops in Afghanistan from nations besides the United States has reached more than 20,000 -- to add to the approximately 21,000 American troops serving there.

Not all the news about Afghanistan is encouraging. There is, for example, the legitimate worry that increased poppy production could be a destabilizing factor. And rising violence in southern Afghanistan is real.

President Hamid Karzai, speaking with President Bush recently at the White House, acknowledged the difficulties: ``Afghanistan is a country that is emerging out of so many years of war and destruction. . . . We lost almost two generations to the lack of education. . . . We know our problems. We have difficulties. But Afghanistan also knows where the problem is.``

The problem, he said, is poverty and extremism. Success requires a strong and capable Afghan government that can provide services and opportunities for all its people.

During the active combat or conventional phase of any war, there are clear signs of progress: battles won, key strategic points taken, enemy forces captured or killed. In the post-battle phase, however, the measure of progress is not as clear -- especially in a war such as the Global War on Terror, which relies so heavily on the development of civic institutions in places that have known little more than war and destitution.

And yet, for all of the challenges the Afghan people face, there are many promising indicators. Among them:

· Security: The Afghan National Army has grown to more than 30,000, with approximately 1,000 soldiers added each month. The Afghan National Police now number more than 46,000. Afghan forces were successful in providing security for the two national elections held since 2004.

· Economy: The size of Afghanistan`s economy has tripled in the past five years and is projected to increase another 20 percent next year. Between 2003 and 2004, government revenue increased 70 percent, to $300 million. Coca-Cola recently opened a $25 million bottling plant in Kabul, and other large multinational companies are considering opportunities in Afghanistan.

· Education: In the past five years, more than 42 million school textbooks have been printed and distributed, and some 50,000 Afghan teachers have been trained. Almost 600 schools have been built, and now more than 5 million children attend school, a 500 percent increase from 2001.

· Health care: In 2001 only 8 percent of Afghans had access to at least basic health care; at least 80 percent do today. Some 5 million Afghan children have been vaccinated.

· Infrastructure: Thousands of kilometers of roads have been built or improved since the Taliban fell. Since 2004, 25 provincial courthouses have been built and hundreds of judges trained.

Building a new nation is never a straight, steady climb upward. Today can sometimes look worse than yesterday -- or even two months ago. What matters is the overall trajectory: Where do things stand today when compared to what they were five years ago?

In Afghanistan, the trajectory is a hopeful and promising one.

The writer is secretary of defense.

#654 by tahmed32

[But not in the same vein as you expressed yourself about the Quran. But rather in the same vein as, in your very next sentence, you say one should view religion: ``Religion according to me is a personal belief system, and therefore strictly private matter``. Which means respecting other people`s religious beliefs and not making gratuitous remarks about others` religions. ]


There is one BIG exception to this wonderful rule, of course.

IF, for example, someone ``believes`` in something like Naziism as a religion, or for example some religion where killing the ``disbelievers`` and putting punitive taxes on them is prescribed, amongst other things.

Other than this caveat (which is important for self-preservation), this rule of respecting other religions should hold good.

Quadiani2:66

It has taken this long time to figure out my hatred for those who spew venom aginst oir Nabi and against muslims.

As they say ``You ain`t seen nothi` yet``..You read the post, I am rewarded..thanks. They are always written with those who are westoxicated scum....and you like its cream rise to the top.

We will not rest unless your children have an equal opportunity to become your sprinkler boy`s servant in Pakistan.

Keep reading; you will get more opportunities to lose your Quadiani-facade of ``humour``.

mullah echoboom: The Tatas, with 22billion $/yr in revenue, are India`s largets private sector employers. TCS is one of the world`s largets outsourcing companies. Ratan Tata is about to buy Corus for 10 billion $.

What do pakis, let alone paki parsees, have to match that....

How Liquor, women, providing accomodation, and spying for Imperialists
turned crocodiles, lizards, and geckos (otherwise known as PARSIS)into the ``elite`` of Bombay; Karachi.

One of their own writes, albeit with a hint of an adapter`s (read:traitor or: Islam-hater`s) ``pride``.
Read on! All of it--the story of crows with their peacock feathers--PLUCKED now.... Even the
Kalloos in the U.S have found pride & is fiercely independant.

These goraa-pleasers will stoop & bendover and do anything for a westoxicated lifestyle and comfort.

---

ANGLICISATION OF THE PARSIS

by Polly Noshir Chenoy
(Dr. Chenoy belongs to the Department of English, Osmania University,
Hyderabad.)

My mother`s contention is: ``British gayan ne` opre vadhare British thai
gayan`` (We have become more British after the British have left). This, she
attributes mostly to the fact that the Parsis; especially the younger
generation speak no other language except English and have no knowledge of
any Indian language.But what is annoying and also rash, is the fact, that
the Parsis feel superior to the other Indians on account of their mastery of
the English language and tend to look down on those who cannot speak the
language well. Whereas, it would help them immensely if they continued to
learn their adopted mother tongue, Gujarati, as well as the language of the
region in which they live. ...........

Rest here .........real juicy stuff
......... a rather long, but worth it, write-up about how those who eventually become vulture`s dinner themselves vulyured &co-operated with British to work against Hindoo-muslims , especially post-1857, and supplied women, liquor, and room&board to the British baboons & thus controlled the vice-businesses in India, Pakistan and Iran.

Another scavenger community of India-Pakistan...the others are Quadianis & Agha-Khanis

http://tenets.zoroastrianism.com/angl33.html

Re: # 664

echoboom,

......... you are one hate-filled and hateful bastard !......... where did the father of you atom bum go when he needed medical care ?........ how many engineering colleges like ned did your mullahs build ?........ may you die of hunger and thirst, and may you have an oversexed afghan as your cell mate in gitmo and arjun as your room mate in hell .... ameen ... sum ameen

Re: # 666 by hamidm2 on October 7, 2006 3:24pm PT

Dear Hamid:

Did you realize that your post was numbered 666?

Your wish may just come true on this poor pigsqueek person who is spewing so much hate on all enlightened chowkies

{........ may you die of hunger and thirst, } okay this is probably bearable


{and may you have an oversexed afghan } which gender male or female. Ok, being a mullah type this pigsqueak can enjoy either one. Anyhow, you forgot to mention the gender in your wish.


{as your cell mate in gitmo and arjun as your room mate in hell .... ameen ... sum ameen}

Now this one is nastiest of them all. Why did you want that to happen to a person who will not grow up to complain that his mullah raped him as a child? eh!

And on another subject matter, you have not answered whether having deliberate masturbation during fast would make the fast null and void? Jay Leno was asking the audience, when was a masturbation unintentional?

Respectfully submitted,

masadi
i don`t know much about us but discrimination is widespread inUK.

``Britain’s minority ethnic populations remained in the metropolitan areas because of expanding households after the birth of children, new migrants settling close to existing communities from the same ethnic group, and a reducing white population — either moving out or dying. Overall, the ethnic minority population in 2001 was 4.6 million, or 7 per cent of the total population. More than 41 million said that they were Christian, with the second biggest group being 8.5 million who claimed no faith. Muslims accounted for 1.5 million, of whom 60,000 were white British Muslims.
Ethnic minorities still faced higher levels of unemployment and social deprivation than their white counterparts. In both the 16-24 and 25-39 age groups, unemployment rates among British-born black, Bangladeshi and Pakistani ethnic groups were more than twice as high as white Britons.
Unemployment was higher among Muslims than any other religious group and when they did find jobs they had the lowest proportion of workers in managerial and professional positions. Graduates from ethnic minorities, including those born in Britain, were more likely to be unemployed than white graduates.
Joy Dobbs, a divisional director for social and health analysis reporting at the ONS, said: “Black African Muslims have three times the unemployment rate of other Muslims and that’s a very significant difference. What’s interesting is that we know unemployment varies by things like age, by things like qualifications, by things like country of birth.
“And even if you take account of those things, there’s still a difference between the black African Muslim and others, so we have to conclude this is something to do with people’s ethnicity and religion.”








http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2391321.html

#658 H2

[because they think they have done their share of picking and the man owes them .......... ]

For a moment I thought you were talking about that Kashmiri “damsel” in distress and the Pakistani “knight” in shining armor with those racing green hormones.

But perhaps you do not meet the age profile requirements, mian!