Musharraf Spilling the Beans—Why Now?

#654

[I did what you claim you stand for (i.e. respecting others religions), not what you actually demonstrate yourself to stand for when you make gratuitous remarks about the Quran. ]

Aaah, that wicked, wicked arrow of the Bhishma!

hamidm/anil: ``..... there are lots of indian muslim IT guys - i personally know at least a dozen or more ........ asim premji is one too, you know``

i believe you are referring to azim, not asim.......who, i believe, is a good friend of anil`s by the way.......no doubt, azim premji is an indian muslim heading a bohemeth coroporation........however, if one looks at it that way, then they president of the second largest IT company in the world, oracle, is a black guy named charles phillips.......and a young black guy, at that......he came from morgan stanley......the head of rogers - a gigantic telecom - in canada is now an indian muslim also........and i am sure there is some pakistani female, somewhere, who is the head of an IT company.....i know one who is a vc...........i would compare azim premji, charles phillips etc. to benazir bhutto.......in the sense that pakistan has had a female pm, but still very few women in politics.........

but you are correct, in terms of african-americans, there are literally none......zero......i have never had an african american professor......i taught for a few years, part time......and never had an african american student in IT........i have worked with one african-american employee, who was also in some support dept. and not in engineering......

these kind of wierd demographics are kind of odd.......one doesn`t notice them at first.......and then slowly they become apparent.......pakistani women aren`t in many professions to begin with, so that wasn`t as odd.........but barely seeing any indian muslims and african americans was strange.......

i have worked with around two pakistani women (both i hired, so i don`t know if that counts).......three or four or so indian muslims........and one african american guy.........on the other hand, i have worked with hundreds of indian hindus (and quite a few sikhs, considering their population ratio).......a large number of which were indian hindu women.....a pretty good amount of pakistani muslims.........and iranis (specially in canada)......and some black guys, all of whom were first generation immigrants from nigeria, jamaica etc...........

strange!!

Re: # 656

romair,

........ there is nothing strange about it !.......... you will also never see an african american picking fruit like the mexicans - they would rather wait for the welfare check .......... why? .... because they think they have done their share of picking and the man owes them ..........

......... i still think i know too many indian muslim IT types, but i will take your word for it since you are in the business .........

anil #634 ``Regarding Gita - be my guest ... and express yourself. ``

I already have.

But not in the same vein as you expressed yourself about the Quran. But rather in the same vein as, in your very next sentence, you say one should view religion: ``Religion according to me is a personal belief system, and therefore strictly private matter``. Which means respecting other people`s religious beliefs and not making gratuitous remarks about others` religions.

In other words, I did what you claim you stand for (i.e. respecting others religions), not what you actually demonstrate yourself to stand for when you make gratuitous remarks about the Quran.

Re: # 654

Tahmad Sahib:

This is getting beyond me.... I have never criticized Koran. I do not have the knowledge to do it. Please refrain from jumping into such conclusions.

And, when you critiqued Gita, you could not have seen me jumping up and down.

Your real issues are and should we with Massaddi Mian, he you think his alleged quotes are not from Koran.


Anil

The Death of Horatio Alger
Paul Krugman

The link in #652 doesn`t work try the above

The Death of Horatio Alger
Paul Krugman


The other day I found myself reading a leftist rag that made outrageous claims about America. It said that we are becoming a society in which the poor tend to stay poor, no matter how hard they work; in which sons are much more likely to inherit the socioeconomic status of their father than they were a generation ago.

The name of the leftist rag? Business Week, which published an article titled ``Waking Up From the American Dream.`` The article summarizes recent research showing that social mobility in the United States (which was never as high as legend had it) has declined considerably over the past few decades. If you put that research together with other research that shows a drastic increase in income and wealth inequality, you reach an uncomfortable conclusion: America looks more and more like a class-ridden society.

And guess what? Our political leaders are doing everything they can to fortify class inequality, while denouncing anyone who complains--or even points out what is happening--as a practitioner of ``class warfare.`` ....... That`s where those commies at Business Week come in: As they point out (and as economists and sociologists have been pointing out for some time), America actually is more of a caste society than we like to think. And the caste lines have lately become a lot more rigid.


(Click link above for full article)

#627 by okhla99

Read in the post #650 below (highlighted paras) for your answer re:

Respected Zeemax, Pl do not defend Taliban.

Out of all the warlords in Afghanistan, US/Nato are the worst. And, US/NATO are not going to leave AF unless Taliban kicks them out. That`s the first priority. After that they`ll see as to what to do with the Northern Alliance.

In the meantime, we must support Taliban because they are the only answer to place AF back on some kind of track; not the Northern Alliance; who are not only much more brutal and mysoginic than Taliban, but are mere hired warriors for the best bidder, and whom US has placed incharge of Afghanistan in their enmity of resurgent Islam.

Finally a good macaca who actually understands Aghanistan!

A video is available on Democracy Now.

AMY GOODMAN: Sonali Kolhatkar, the issue of the Provincial Women`s Affairs minister, who was recently killed in Afghanistan, can you talk more about what is happening to women there? I mean, I think about Laura Bush, giving the first First Lady radio address Saturday, a year or two ago, talking about how women are gaining their rights in Afghanistan.

SONALI KOLHATKAR: Yeah, you know, we write about this in our book. We have a chapter in our book that really goes into the kind of liberation rhetoric that was used after 9/11. You know, after 9/11, the Bush administration suddenly became a feminist administration. You know, it was bizarre to see George W. Bush and Laura Bush, which, of course, compared to the Taliban, ultra-Republicans and conservatives, do appear feminist, right? But it was really bizarre to see them jump on this bandwagon to liberate Afghan women. And it was a deliberate ploy. It was a way to get well-meaning Americans on the side of this war, to justify, you know: not only are we going to get revenge for 9/11, we`re going to free the women.

And what happened? What happened was that they basically assumed that by defeating the Taliban, Afghan women were going to somehow automatically be freed. Now, in the last five years or so, Afghan women in the west have been burning themselves to death. There have been dozens of women who have been burning themselves to death. Women, like the woman who was just killed in Afghanistan, have been paying the price. They have been attacked by the fundamentalists, who are basically seeing them as collaborating with the Americans or collaborating with the U.S.-run central government in Afghanistan.

Things for women are okay in Kabul, in terms of freedom to wear what they want to wear, a little more access to employment and healthcare, etc., but you step outside Kabul, as we did a year ago when we traveled, and it feels like the country is still under Taliban control. There`s still a fundamentalist reign of terror in Afghanistan that Afghan women are caught between. There`s a climate of fear, much of it because of these U.S.-backed warlords in the north.

And what`s happening to Afghan women is that, before the Taliban, during the Taliban and after the Taliban, they are suffering from a lifespan of 45 years, the highest maternal mortality and infant mortality rates in the world today. Afghanistan is the hungriest country. So in addition to the attacks from misogynist fundamentalists, being caught between, you know, the U.S. forces and these fundamentalists, they’re also starving to death. And this is important. There are hardly any schools. Schools are being burnt down in various parts of the country. Just this year alone, dozens of schools were burned down, and hundreds more shut down -- these are girls’ schools -- shut down because of fear.

So women still have no access to the very fundamental rights that they were struggling for under the Taliban. And Bush tries to convince us that they`ve somehow been liberated. We have to see through this, and we have to remind ourselves that if we cared about Afghan women five years ago, why have we forgotten? Why have we stopped caring today?

AMY GOODMAN: Sonali, what do you think has to happen right now in Afghanistan?

SONALI KOLHATKAR: I think what has to happen is the U.S. and NATO forces absolutely have to stop their aggressive tactics. They`re trying to convince the American people that they`re fighting this so-called war on terror. And what are they doing? They`re basically hunting down, they’re rounding people up, ordinary people. They’re killing them. They’re calling them Taliban. They`re saying these are suspected Taliban. And that`s really creating a lot of anger and fear and strengthening fundamentalist forces. So the U.S. and NATO have to stop their aggressive tactics, preferably leave Afghanistan.

Now, that doesn’t mean we must just walk away from Afghanistan. We, as a people, have a responsibility. You know, our hands are soaked in the blood of the Afghan people. This was a refrain we heard often in Afghanistan. And the Afghan people want international peacekeepers, real peacekeepers, like the kind that were in Kabul under the United Nations for the first few years. Today, Kabul is the safest city in the country. International peacekeepers to the rest of the country is what`s needed in Afghanistan, not the war fighters.

Accompanying that, we must have disarmament. We must have reparations for the -- you know, all the dollars we spent destroying Afghanistan, we must pay them back dollar-for-dollar in helping rebuild their country, so that there`s a space for them to breathe, so that there`s a space for them to take back their country and actually exercise democracy. The Afghan people want democracy. They say if it`s good enough for you people in the West, it`s good enough for us. And they really desperately want that, because they need to be freed from these twin evils of western imperialism and religious fundamentalism, and it`s usually western imperialism that has actually created and fueled religious fundamentalism in Afghanistan.

AMY GOODMAN: I want to thank you both very much for being with us, Sonali Kolhatkar and James Ingalls. Their book is called Bleeding Afghanistan: Washington, Warlords and the Propaganda of Silence.

Anil writes <<< Social injustice is one reason I will never vote Republican, >>>

After saying this you point to hamid who is presenting personal solutions to systemic problems- that is the disconnect he cannot get over. If the system is producing/generating poverty based on race, no amount of personal hard work will take the population that defines that race out of poverty. Social systems are not change proof, all or none items, that you are saying aren`t perfect` imperfection is also no excuse for not seeking solutions and your bigotry against Islam aside, Zakat would indeed equal the playing field by massive redistribution (much greater than the 20/20 the UN recommends) that fulfils basic needs so that the ``hard work`` that hamidm is talking about leads somewhere. Just because we have a world system that is producing a few winers and nation wide losers does not mean you support the status quo and say, there is nothing better and in the same breath say that you support social justice. Think about what you say and whether it means anything or not.

#643 by bulleya

``paki sprinkler guy....``

Yeah. Paki sprinkler guy, Mexican delivery guy etc etc are all euphemisms Hamidm2 uses to denote all those elements which sprinkle his deluded ego with notions of being `white`.

Re: # 649

Re: # 649

Massaddi Mian:

``....your bigotry against Islam aside,...``

If you can keep such comments and attacks out, you and I can discuss this subject. I have studied and actually tried to do something about this issue in New Delhi, without any color of religion.

Also, Massaddi Mian your statement includes you also.... just change ``against`` to ``for``.

It is pathetic but true that simply changing conjunctions, one can recycle extremists propoganda to describe extremists from both sides?

Also, if calling me a bigot gives you peace please go ahead, and make your day.

Anil

#593 by taikonaut

[Taliban are nothing but a Pakistani version of Shiv Sena. You worry about your extremists and we`ll take care of ours.]

Abey Tai ke bachchey! Are all Jinnah lovers made of the same exact fabric of dishonesty?!!

The last time you turkeys “took care” of that lot called the Talibans, the Amrikkans had to come and rescue the asses of you and your bhai-bandaas who had found the cause of all of the problems of the world in a single entity, which they were committed to contain, crush and screw!

Your women, of course!

Now go sing that Jinnah bhajan.

While clutching on to that dripping-wet dream of a ``liberal, progressive Pakistan`` - that oxymoron!

#635 by behram1 Re: # 616 by zeemax

Is it possible for you to consider that maybe present day rulers of Islamic world are out of touch with the rest of the world, and what their citizens expect? Do you really think that the ruling class want their citizens to live in harmony and peace?

When I say `Muslim`, I always mean the ordinary Muslim citizen, never the ruling class. And no, at-least the governments are not out of touch but there`s little they can do given current global order, and yes the ruling classes do want peace & harmony ... because it`s absence scares away their cherished FDI, but are unaware it can`t be achieved.

Have you ever thought why only the Islamic world brings in Arabs to fight their cause? Because it is the Ummah that they are fighting (for?), right!?

Right. On the other side of the coin a large number of Paks are currently fighting in Afghanistan and Chechnya just as they did in Bosnia. So it`s not only Arabs. However I see where you`re getting at .... Arab Domination? That`s ludicrous in view of the aforesaid.

Then we look at Darfur, Arab Muslims are killing Black Muslims. Why?

The argument is tuquoque as it has nothing to do with Afghanistan., But nevertheless, you may first contemplate why Sudan`s president has actually `threatened` any nations contributing troops to UN peacekeeping force. There`s more to it than Faux TV.

Why did we have a flood of Arabs to fight the Soviets? Are you acknowledging then, that Afghans (or even in collaboration with Pakistanis), by themselves could not have handled this invasion?

Have you not followed my advice yet re CIA Jihad 101? Where did this flood pop up from?

It is not the Ummah thing, Zeemax, it is the Arab thing, and hopefully someday ...

Aah .. now you`re clear about your contention re Arbi/Ajmi & Arab Domination stuff. But you may firther clarify as to `which` arabs wish to dominate. Saudis? Egyptians? Moroccans? Algerians? Sudanese? Lebanese? Jordanians? Syrians? What about the Somali who`re not not even arab? I ask this because all these are involved in global Jihad.

But, first, you must tell me why would you know more (re Afghanistan)?

Several reasons beyond mere books.

Do we then just go into oblivion? Why the stress on getting ourselves recognized? What is all the fuss about?

All the fuss about is re concentration and monopolization of not only wealth but also resources, both present and future, af all sorts in G7-10. If the western renaissance made use of the body of knowledge and resources mobilized by Umayyad Muslims to recover Europe from dark ages, why should the Muslims be restricted now from seeking its own renaissance using the body of knowledge and resources hogged by this `community`?

Cheers!

Re: # 647 by zeemax on October 7, 2006 1:43am PT

Dear Zeemax:

On the onset, let me be clear with you about myself and my values. Yes, for the most part it is the Arbi/Ajmi thing in my thinking. Also, when the Prophet himself had directed not to harass the Ajami, then why did their followers wreeck so much havoc on those poor Ajami soul. Beside, if I may ask, where are you [as a Pakistani (or as a Pushtoon?)] coming from?

You are of the opinion that the rulers of the Islamic world are not out of touch with its citizens... {And no, at-least the governments are not out of touch but there`s little they can do given current global order, and yes the ruling classes do want peace & harmony}

Yet, Muslims have always suggested that the western leaders are different from it`s citizens. How can that be logical? When we constanltly parade the western leaders to its voters in the west. Where do we find open and fair election in the muslim world?

{ ... because it`s absence scares away their cherished FDI, but are unaware it can`t be achieved. } Of course, how could you invest in a partnership with a ``badmaash``?

{Right. On the other side of the coin a large number of Paks are currently fighting in Afghanistan and Chechnya just as they did in Bosnia. So it`s not only Arabs. However I see where you`re getting at .... Arab Domination? That`s ludicrous in view of the aforesaid. }

So the world is right to call these fighters from the Islamic world as terrorists. Why were you complaining about the terrorists in Afghanistan in the first place?

{There`s more to it than Faux TV. } Yes there is and that is why I do not waste my time on TV shows.

{Have you not followed my advice yet re CIA Jihad 101? Where did this flood pop up from? }

Was it not then the wishes and desires of the Deobandi brand of Islam as envisioned by Zia-ul-Haq to fire brand his society with the invasion from Saudi Wahabis?

{Aah .. now you`re clear about your contention re Arbi/Ajmi & Arab Domination stuff. But you may firther clarify as to `which` arabs wish to dominate. Saudis? Egyptians? Moroccans? Algerians? Sudanese? Lebanese? Jordanians? Syrians? What about the Somali who`re not not even arab? I ask this because all these are involved in global Jihad. }

You must tell me, an ajami, which Arab brand are we talking about? The best that I could do is to identify the most violent and the most virulent ones are the Wahabis. Are they not?

{But, first, you must tell me why would you know more (re Afghanistan)?

Several reasons beyond mere books. }

Is it possible for you to enlightened us with your wisdom on this roughness of your society?


{All the fuss about is re concentration and monopolization of not only wealth but also resources, both present and future, af all sorts in G7-10. } Granted, and mostly agreed with the reason, but can we justify the means of that your mind is justifying?

{If the western renaissance made use of the body of knowledge and resources mobilized by Umayyad Muslims to recover Europe from dark ages, why should the Muslims be restricted now from seeking its own renaissance using the body of knowledge and resources hogged by this `community`? }

Can we extend this logic to the Zoroastrian (ajami) Persians, as well? Or should we just stop at the thief`s and robbers of the Arab world of the 7th century, under Umar and Saad-bin-waakas?

No, Zeemax, you are totally wrong on several counts.

First, you do not know where to draw a line of your Islamic history and its glorious past, that only you are claiming, because, yes you have a population of 1.2 Billion people.

Second, you and your muslims are full of hatred because of your ``hasad`` (jealousy), and you know that your values are not suitable for the current world. Your society is totally irrelevant and incompetent to the world of science and reasoning.

Third, you believe in blaming others rather than yourself, and you have no self-introspection. You have lost the global economic slice, and yes the winners will keep the bounties of the war, just as the Islamic forces kept those from yesteryears.

Fourth, your society has lost the authenticity of fairness, of honesty, of authenticity, of human generosity, and all the many other virtues that a modern society wants and desires.

And finally, your historical cruelty against most of the indigenous people of the lands that you forcefully occupied is now coming back to haunt your ilk.

And this is what is bothering your wretched soul.

Respectfully submitted,

hamidm writes <<< ......... you never responded to my post #624 which is based on 30 years of personal experience - what is your answer ? .......... and forget about the bell curve - i never mentioned it, aslam did ......... my thesis is simple - blacks are poor because they are lazy, wallow in their victimhood and have a sense of entitlement .........all they have to do to get out of the ditch is work hard ....... >>>>

A ignorantly simplistic, sterotypical comment based on stupidity and little else. In your 30 years of experience how many African Americans are there whose work you have measured, and what percent of the 12% of the US population do they constitute for you to make such a generalization. The AAs did back breaking work for free all through their hard period of slavery when their families were methodically broken up, and subjected to all kinds of barbarism by your `gods` or as tahmed put it `Anglo Saxon ethos`. Then after that they were segregated in poorest most underfunded neighbourhoods, then fully one third of their young men are oppressed by the criminal justice system, then the schools that serve them are underfunded because the property tax base is zero, not only are the buildings crumbling, the teachers don`t get proper pay and the students as a result don`t learn anything. Most, those who are lucky to escape prison, and stay alive (their rate of death by violence is several times higher than whites) get low paying service or janitorial jobs, with no benefits or advancement (check their prepondrance based on race in such jobs- unlike you I have read the data), then with such low pay, most men cannot afford to feed their families so the family breakup that was a legacy of slavery has been extended into the present day. In these conditions, I would myself say the hell with it, it is not personal laziness the numbers reveals a systemic problem, deliberate exclusion caused by institutional racism. If personal reasons were the cause you would not see similar black/white population wide disparity generation to generation, it would be more blurry.

There can only be two causes, Social (systemic) or Biological (genetic) to produce such population wide disparity, and the bilogical has been debunked long ago. These things are beyond your level of intelligence, since you possess the genetic makeup of a baboon, so I suggest you keep sipping your lattes and picking the lice out of behram`s hair.