Gone is Caravan...

Re: # 74 by harimau

[Urdu is Persianized Hindustani written in Urdu script and, just to be perverse, written right to left. ]

Urdu is written using the Nasta`liq script (developed in Islamic Persia) which is a style of calligraphy for writing Arabic script. And Arabic is written right to left.

And Urdu is Persianized AND Arabicized (in short Islamified or Camel-dung-ified) Hindustani.

Ref ranjit #53

[Hamid chacha, hindi does have a `z` word and it is used precisely as it is used in urdu. For e.g. poison is ``zahar``, not ``jahar`` or the word for need is ``zaroorat`` not ``jaroorat``.

So irrespective BJ`s protestations, there is no difference between hindi and urdu. Maybe BJ speaks Bhojpuri or Awadhi or some other bihari dialect, not real hindi. If you come to Delhi, the hindi spoken there is the real hindi and it is exactly like urdu.]

You are right. Hindi is merely Hindustani/Urdu made uglier by the use of improbable Sanskrit words and written in Devanagari script. Urdu is Persianized Hindustani written in Urdu script and, just to be perverse, written right to left.

My cousins, nephews and nieces who grew up in New Delhi understood Urdu though they couldn`t read the script.

Ranjit & Hamidm sahib,
When BJ is insisting on lack of ``z`` in Hindi, he is not ``biharifying`` hindi speakers. Traditional hindi does not have a sound for ``z``. Extensions have been created for newer sounds e.g. ``au`` and ``z``, but imposing them on all is really as bad as someone trying to impose sanskrit as Hindi.

Re:bj#68

[...My position is that “gujar gaya” is a highly legitimate way to say it if large number of Indians are singing it that way – which seems to be the case, the tears of self-styled Pakistani “linguists” notwithstanding! ....]

BJ bhaiyya, you are ``biharifying`` all hindi speakers. :-) Please cease and desist!!

Only biharis like Laloos and Rabris with a `gamcha` (towel) on their head are singing `gujar gaya`. Mohd. Rafi himself doesnt sing it like that, nor do most people I know of.

Having said that, let me compliment you on your otherwise superb taste in music and poetry. That song is awesome and the poetry by Neeraj is brilliant. When Neeraj was visting US in 2004, I heard his interview on the TV program - `Abhi to main jawaan hoon` on TVAsia. That man is one amazing poet.

Neeraj was recounting an event when music director SD Burman asked him to compose the lyrics for a song starting with `Rangeela` on a women who is scorned by her lover. He came up with this incredible song -

Rangeela re, tere rang mein, yoo rangaa hain, meraa man
Chhaliyaa re, naa bujhe hain, kisee jal se ye jalan

Just note the word play on ``jal`` and ``jalan``. Jalan is her pain on being scorned by her lover. Jal is a metaphor for liquor (alchohol), which maps brilliantly with Jalan in that her pain cannot be mitigated by liquor. That`s some cool lyrics!!

#54 HP

Mian HP, this is nothing! Just wait till I start translating the Ghalib!

#63 Nasah

Nasah sahib, thank you for that insightful comment!

#59 Boomer

Long association with the “phoren” crowd has warped your memories and your understanding was perhaps already damaged irreparably beforehand in the land of the Pure!

Even the grade school kids in the subcontinent know the bird “koyal” or cuckoo for its beautiful singing! It is not associated with being a fruitcake of the variety this site is teeming with!

And no lip from you is ever going to keep me from showing up on any boards I choose to – and certainly not from mine, for sure!

No matter how much you sing that line!

What are you – a cuckoo?!!

#Ranjit

Hindi is a phonetic language. It is written EXACTLY the way it sounds. Therefore, using one or more elements of its alphabet, it is possible to recreate virtually any letter of any alphabet in any part of the world. That does not mean that every letter of every alphabet in every part of the world is automatically a member of Hindi alphabet.

So there! Don’t give me any more lip on this! I showed you TWO different pictures of the alphabet. There IS no “z”, case closed!

#various

Here is how I see it.

Languages evolve. One of the ways they evolve is by taking new words – for example, to accommodate new technology. Another of the ways is to simple take existing words from another language – usually a neighboring language through interaction. There is also the tendency of simplification of words – as we see in the “American” English

The Hindi/Urdu word “Izzat” for example, is pronounced “Eizzaat” in its original Arabic even though it is written “Ezzat” which is close in look to the subcontinental word. The word retains the same meaning but it got “adopted” and its pronunciation changed.

It will be absolutely asinine for the “protectors” of the source language to cry foul over such natural evolution – which is how languages keep themselves alive and propagate! If there is to be one RIGHT version, which is it? The source version or the version which gets most used?!

Which seldom seems to stop such self-styled “protectors” – when they are awake – from crying foul, as we see some of the Pakistanis do here – what with these folks crying worse than any violated ladies could over raise their volumes to!

The days when an emperor could issue a decree and make himself a chief executive of a country or declare that everybody should pronounce a particular word in a particular way – those days are gone almost everywhere!

My position is that “gujar gaya” is a highly legitimate way to say it if large number of Indians are singing it that way – which seems to be the case, the tears of self-styled Pakistani “linguists” notwithstanding!

Languages evolve – some Pakistanis’ thinking never seems to!

Re: # 66 continuation

OK, I take that back. But let me ask the expert:

Why did Hindvi, split into Urdu and Hindi?

A question for the experts:

What is the contribution of Amir Khusro to Hindi - Urdu?

nasah:64
It is: ``Doa NainaaN, matwaaray tihaaray , hUm pUr julUm kraiN ....``
But bad/poor pronunciation does not necessarily defines a geet.

Now this one is great , on all counts. Good Lyrics, Good dance, and Good composition.....and so much ``No does not always mean no`` situation. Oh how fondly she recalls in detail the ``happening``.

Murli bairan

or something like -- ``do julmi nainaN hum pur juluma karaiN`` -- do `Zulmi nainaN` -- how aweful...!

Hamidm, echo, Ranjit and BJKS:

Hindi is great for geets -- Urdu can`t compete with Hindi in that sphere -- and Geet and Bhajans Z must be pronounced as J -- for example just think of this bund how awful it will sound in Urdu -- lay gaya jalim chora kur sonay ki janjeer bhi -- lay gaya zalim chora kur sonay ki zanzeer bhi....:)

BJ -- previous post just kidding -- nice translation.

#58 /61by ranjit.
That clarifies it. This sound ``Z`` is borrowed and is now part of our Hindvi or Urdu. There is no, but IS, such language as ``hindi``.

zinda, zindagi, bazaar, guzar, zaroorat, zahar, zara, zabardast ...are all farsi words.

---

.``........except for the latest tendency in Pakistan to add a lot more arabic to it..........``

zinda, zindagi, bazaar, guzar, zaroorat, zahar, zara, zabardast ...are all farsi words.

There is no official/unofficial policy in Pakistan, unlike that in India, to ``manufacture`` the language. The Urdu language of the newspapers from your Hyderabad has better or proper
communication-ability or diction than any of the ones in Pakistan. It has far more exact word-usage from Farsi/arabie which words if replaced by ones from any ``natives`` language would ruin the exposition.

Re:echo#55

The `z` based examples that come to mind are - zinda, zindagi, bazaar, guzar, zaroorat, zahar, zara, zabardast etc. For instance, everyone says - ``Main bazaar jaa raha hoon`` and not ``Main bajaar jaa raha hoon``. I dont know how BJ says it, but that is how everyone else says it.

Granted these words are used in Urdu, but then I dont accept any distinction between the two languages, except for the latest tendency in Pakistan to add a lot more arabic to it.

Re:bj#57

By the way, BJ bhaiyya, the technical word in hindi for that ``dot`` under `j` to make it `z` is ``nukhta``, just in case you engage some linguist to check out my post!!