Beej K Singh October 19, 2006
#107 Posted by bjkumar on October 24, 2006 8:05:14 am
Extracted from a Government of India publication.
Neeraj
LYRICIST EXTRAORDINAIRE
NAVEEN JOSHI & JAI SINGH
Contemporary Hindi poetry in India is bereft of its soul without Neeraj. A godgifted poet, he is a rare gem whose sparkle illuminates the hearts of millions of Indians not only in India but abroad too. He is one of the very few Hindi poets who are equally revered by the literary world as well as cinema buffs. Befittingly, Neeraj has been conferred the Padmashree by the Government of India and honoured by many reputed literary institutions.
Being a prolific writer, he has written several books that have been translated into English, Russian, German, Bengali, Gujarati and many other languages. His works have been included in the syllabus of schools and colleges in many states of India. As if this is not enough, Neeraj’s forays in film industry have left a deep imprint on the minds of the connoisseur and the common cine-goers alike. His immortal songs include,
Karvan gujar gaya, gubar dekhte rahe
(the caravan has rolled past, I am left behind to see the dust raised by it);
Kaise kahein hum pyar ne hamko kya kya khel dikhaye
(how do I say how many hues love has shown me);
Phoolon key rang se, dil ki kalam sey, likhi tujhe ek pati
(using the colour of flowers as ink and heart as a pen, I wrote a letter to you).
Neeraj is endowed with an extraordinary talent; his songs are laced with pain, love, romance and persuasion and when he renders them in his own inimitable style, he mesmerizes the audience. He is the only songwriter of Bollywood whose each song has hit the bull’s eye. Legendry actor, producer, director and filmmaker, Dev Anand, invites him even today to Mumbai to write songs for his films. However, Neeraj has never been fascinated by the film world. A poet whose poems ooze passion and emotion, Neeraj smiles when asked about modern film songs. “Songs of today are uninspired and mechanical; a song must be imbued with sentiments to attain permanence. That is why today’s songs are so transitory. In fact the modern trend is to weave songs using the oft-repeated mushy words like dilbar (beloved), aashik (lover), saahil (bank of river) and the like. In our times passion and emotions were so deftly crafted into the songs that they used to tuck at your heartstrings. For example, ‘Megha chaye aadhi raat, bairan ban gayi nindiya’ (night is overcast with dark clouds – denoting passion – so sleep has turned hostile).”
In the 60s and 70s, he adds, to compete with such stalwarts like Hasrat Jaipuri, Indivar and Sahir Ludhianvi was a matter of pride. “That was a glorious period. Nowadays the songs are unable to create that lilting magic of the yore, simply because the lyricists and music composers are not as committed as they used to be.”
Now that Neeraj does not keep good health, his Mumbai visits have become very infrequent. He not long ago visited the USA at the invitation of the International Hindi Committee that honoured him. Also, he has been conferred many awards and titles by various organizations.
Few people know that Gopaldas ‘Neeraj’ (his full name) was a Professor of Hindi at the Darma Samaj College of Aligarh in the 60s when he first received offers to write songs for Hindi films. After shuttling between Mumbai and Aligarh for some time to complete his film assignments, Neeraj opted to leave teaching and settle down in Mumbai. Somehow, his temperament and health could not cope up with Mumbai and he returned to Aligarh, the city that had nurtured his creativity. Though satisfied with his life and professional achievements, he nevertheless adds rather philosophically:
Wahin par dhoondna Neeraj ko tum jahan walo Jahan bhi dard ki basti koi nazar aaye.
(Look for Neeraj, O people of this world, Wherever you find pain and sadness dwell.)
#106 Posted by VRV on October 23, 2006 8:19:19 am
Re: # 97
BJ,
The goatee looked like a satirist and u are one amongst us. My guess is half-right!
Thanks :-)
BJ,
The goatee looked like a satirist and u are one amongst us. My guess is half-right!
Thanks :-)
#105 Posted by ballukhan on October 23, 2006 12:34:36 am
Fascination for ``puritanism`` afflicts every one in Pakistan.............after all it was supposed to be the ``pureland`` ............... anyone who has an idea of local dialects of North India like Awadhi, Brij Bhasa, Bhojpuri, Maithali, Haryanavi etc. would know that Urdu has been a dialect of the rulers...............so has been the case with the Khadi Boli that has emerged in the form of Hindi as we know today.
Infact, just as the politics of TNT imposed Urdu upon the local dialects of various regions in Pakistan and virtually Cannibalized them , similary the logic of Hindi nationalism cannibalized the other dialects.
But now we see some revival of some of the local dialects, atleast Bhojpuri has churned out popular sitcoms , good literature and now a film featuring Amitabh Bachahan that is doing very well. Other regional dialects like Brij Bhasa needs to do more to revive itself. Infact Brij Bhasa has been the dialect of Khayal in the days of Moghuls. Same with Dhrupad.
So we do not see much of Persianized Urdu or Sanskritized Hindi in the traditions except when these were used for foist the TNT or Hindu nationalism.
Infact, just as the politics of TNT imposed Urdu upon the local dialects of various regions in Pakistan and virtually Cannibalized them , similary the logic of Hindi nationalism cannibalized the other dialects.
But now we see some revival of some of the local dialects, atleast Bhojpuri has churned out popular sitcoms , good literature and now a film featuring Amitabh Bachahan that is doing very well. Other regional dialects like Brij Bhasa needs to do more to revive itself. Infact Brij Bhasa has been the dialect of Khayal in the days of Moghuls. Same with Dhrupad.
So we do not see much of Persianized Urdu or Sanskritized Hindi in the traditions except when these were used for foist the TNT or Hindu nationalism.
#104 Posted by bjkumar on October 22, 2006 10:00:51 pm
During a recent London visit, Gopal Das Neeraj gave an interview where he talked about some of his philosophy in life and he sang the song Insaan ko insaan banaya jaye.
(Note: I translated the poet’s comments from Hindi)
“Look, religions have given a lot of things to people, but it is in the name of religion that people of this world have gotten divided – because some became Hindu, some Mussulmans, some Sikhs, some Christians – I see faces of insaans, but I don’t see the insaans themselves. Well, I am a fakir person – I don’t know any language other than the language of love – I don’t know about hate and I have no clue what role hate can have in a poem – and perhaps the true poet is one who knows not what hate is. So I say one thing about religion:”
Ab to majhab bhi koi, aisa hi chalaya jaye
Ab to majhab bhi koi, aisa hi chalaya jaye
Ab to majhab bhi koi, aisa hi chalaya jaye
Jis mein insaan ko – insaan banaya jaye
“The whole world says to each other – I love you. In reality, nobody loves – they lie, they pretend. If everybody in the world were to love – where could the hate enter from? That means they all are pretending – and that’s why I say this. Every heart carries hate – be it Hindu, Mussulman, or anyone else – it is the hate that fills the heart. To symbolize that –”
Aag behti hai yahan
Aag behti hai yahan – Ganga mein, zum-zum mein bhi
Aag behti hai yahan – Ganga mein, zum-zum mein bhi
Koi batlaye yahan – kahan jaa ke nahaya jaye
Ab to majhab bhi koi, aisa hi chalaya jaye
Jis mein insaan ko – insaan banaya jaye
“Why do I sing all this?”
Mera maksad hai – ye mehfil rahey roshan yun hi
Mera maksad hai – ye mehfil rahey roshan yun hi
Mera maksad hai – ye mehfil rahey roshan yun hi
Khoon chahey mera – deepon mein jalaya jaye
Ab to majhab bhi koi, aisa hi chalaya jaye
Mera maksad hai – ye mehfil rahey roshan yun hi
Khoon chahey mera – deepon mein jalaya jaye
Ab to majhab bhi koi, aisa hi chalaya jaye
Jis mein insaan ko – insaan banaya jaye
Mere dukh dard ka
Mere dukh durd ka – tujh par ho asar kuchh aisa
Mere dukh durd ka – tujh par ho asar kuchh aisa
Mere dukh durd ka – tujh par ho asar kuchh aisa
Main rahoon bhookha to – tujh se bhi na khaya jaye
Ab to majhab bhi koi, aisa hi chalaya jaye
“I say this to Pakistan – and here is what I say:”
Jism doe ho ke bhi
Jism doe ho ke bhi – dil ek hon apne aise
Jism doe ho ke bhi – dil ek hon apne aise
Jism doe ho ke bhi – dil ek hon apne aise
Mera ansoo – teri palkon se uthaya jaye
Jism doe ho ke bhi – dil ek hon apne aise
Mera ansoo – teri palkon se uthaya jaye
Ab to majhab bhi koi, aisa hi chalaya jaye
Jis mein insaan ko – insaan banaya jaye
“The last sher is:”
Geet ghum-sum hai, ghazal chup hai – rubaii hai dukhi
Geet ghum-sum hai, ghazal chup hai – rubaii hai dukhi
Geet ghum-sum hai, ghazal chup hai – rubaii hai dukhi
Aise maahole mein – “Neeraj” ko bulaaya jaye
Ab to majhab bhi koi, aisa hi chalaya jaye
Geet ghum-sum hai…
“I say that the singers should also say it openly to Pakistan and Hindustan – talk love! That’s what I say. No ghazals on that we see! Everyone talks hate – we will plant our flag, we will do this and we will do that…”
Geet ghum-sum hai, ghazal chup hai – rubaii hai dukhi
Aise maahole mein – “Neeraj” ko bulaaya jaye
Ab to majhab bhi koi, aisa hi chalaya jaye
Jis mein insaan ko – insaan banaya jaye
#102 Posted by bjkumar on October 22, 2006 4:41:29 pm
#100 Nasah
Nasah sahib, I am overwhelmed!
O my God, YOU are the real Bihari around here! (And if you are not – I hereby confer unto you the title of “honorary” Bihari – in a state of great trepidation, of course, with one eye fixed on the exit route in order to make a hasty exit – strictly motivated by the sense of self-preservation!)
What a unique combination of shringar ras, veer ras, AND hasya ras you have concocted, dear sir – and then topped it all off with that unique Bihari specialty – called palayan ras!
Bravo!!
Double bravo!!
And that Maithili-speaking Vidyapati does not stand a chance! Not a FAT chance!
The Bhojpuri speakers will whip his ass every time!
#101 Posted by KaalChakra on October 22, 2006 3:51:51 pm
ha ha...nasah ji, that was indeed just WONDERFUL! So thaith that it couldn`t get better.
#100 Posted by nasah on October 22, 2006 3:46:15 pm
folks if you really want to hear true ie khaaNtee Bihari -- here is one authentic quad -- not from Vidiapati or Vidiapatani of course but in thaith bhojpuri...
choli bootadar payhen lee leel bore kay saRee
Daur Daur kay jaat ruhlee oonkhiya kay aree
daal khailee bhaat khailee auree tarakaree
taneeka saa dahee khatir kailee mara maree.......
choli bootadar payhen lee leel bore kay saRee
Daur Daur kay jaat ruhlee oonkhiya kay aree
daal khailee bhaat khailee auree tarakaree
taneeka saa dahee khatir kailee mara maree.......
#99 Posted by anil on October 22, 2006 3:44:38 pm
Re: # 94
Hamidm Sahib:
I aplogize for my ignorance of Urdu. Indeed, languages evolve into different form almost every 700 years. It is has been said that Elezabethan English was very different from today`s English that someone from that time cannot hold discussions in English with someone from today.
I think this evolution will accelerate due to instant communication, local customs and local dialects which used to take time before, will get used and absorbed quicker than in the past. Many say that only Chinese and English will survive, everyone will speak these with local variations. I do not how Russian, French and German chauvinism about there language will be dealt, and even say anything about God`s language Arabic. Massadi Mian and company may have to worry about the preservation of Quran`s purity.
Anil
Hamidm Sahib:
I aplogize for my ignorance of Urdu. Indeed, languages evolve into different form almost every 700 years. It is has been said that Elezabethan English was very different from today`s English that someone from that time cannot hold discussions in English with someone from today.
I think this evolution will accelerate due to instant communication, local customs and local dialects which used to take time before, will get used and absorbed quicker than in the past. Many say that only Chinese and English will survive, everyone will speak these with local variations. I do not how Russian, French and German chauvinism about there language will be dealt, and even say anything about God`s language Arabic. Massadi Mian and company may have to worry about the preservation of Quran`s purity.
Anil
#98 Posted by KaalChakra on October 22, 2006 3:39:58 pm
beej
A devotee of Goswami Tulsidas and Hanuman Chalisa, you naturally prefer the uplifting swad of bhakti rasa :)
As for me, I am a lover - Shringar and Prem, with a touch of the Vir...that for me, is life! :)
Isn`t it a privilege to live life in so many colors and taste it in so many rasas?
(The most memorable evening of my life was spent listening to Neeraj reciting his poetry. There are modern poets, and then there is Neeraj).
A devotee of Goswami Tulsidas and Hanuman Chalisa, you naturally prefer the uplifting swad of bhakti rasa :)
As for me, I am a lover - Shringar and Prem, with a touch of the Vir...that for me, is life! :)
Isn`t it a privilege to live life in so many colors and taste it in so many rasas?
(The most memorable evening of my life was spent listening to Neeraj reciting his poetry. There are modern poets, and then there is Neeraj).
#97 Posted by bjkumar on October 22, 2006 3:08:47 pm
#91, #92 by VRV
Ama yaar, that goateed man is a gentleman named Sarvesh Asthana, a satirist who accompanied poet Neeraj during his Atlanta trip in October 2004.
(Note: Mr. Asthana is not I. (Also, I said “gentleman” which automatically rules me out!))
Thanks for the historical information on Urdu.
Also, your insight into many historical aspects of Hindu/Muslim India/Pakistan divide is quite amazing. It goes so far back!
Just how old ARE you, VRV – 200 years?
#96 Posted by bjkumar on October 22, 2006 2:58:53 pm
#93 Kaal
[You might be referring to Sringar ras. And one has this suspicion that in an earlier life, Beej bhai may have been the great Sringar ras poet Bihari himself!]
Ama Kaal, it is “shringar ras”!
And MY favorite Bihari poet is and has always been Vidyapati, of the following words!
“Tatal saikat vaari-bindu sam
Sut mit ramani samaajey
Tohey bisari man taahey samarpilu
Ab majhu hoab koan kaajey
Maadhav, bus parinaam nirasha!”
(Meaning – like drops of water evaporating on hot sands are so fleeting the ties with one’s children, one’s spouse, and one’s whole society! I looked away from you, O Lord, and I devoted myself to them – what CAN I do now – I am all useless now and it is all fruitless!)
I am sure you are able to see how well it runs parallel to the line of thought (as I see it) in the present poem from Neeraj!
And accordingly…
Accordingly, you should perhaps classify me with the crowd that delves into the bhakti ras rather than that suspicious crowd of shringar ras walas!
Although there may be a point where the two tend to merge!
Now if only we could add hasya ras too, life would become truly honky-dory!
#95 Posted by bjkumar on October 22, 2006 2:54:46 pm
#90 Anil
Thanks for the information on the language phonetics. I am only familiar with the basic Hindi alphabet that I displayed in interact #56. But I do not doubt you.
I provided a list of prominent popular movie songs of the poet Neeraj in interact #15.
I hope that mian Hamidm2 has been thoroughly enlightened by now – otherwise I can always beat up on him some more!
#94 Posted by hamidm2 on October 22, 2006 2:40:19 pm
Re: # 90
anil sahib,
...... actually urdu has 36 alphabets and all kinds of consonants that i honestly can`t keep track of - but it really doesn`t matter ........... i agree with bj - languages are constantly evolving and people are free to develop them as they choose .........
anil sahib,
...... actually urdu has 36 alphabets and all kinds of consonants that i honestly can`t keep track of - but it really doesn`t matter ........... i agree with bj - languages are constantly evolving and people are free to develop them as they choose .........
#93 Posted by KaalChakra on October 22, 2006 2:21:48 pm
anil ji
You might be referring to Sringar ras. And one has this suspicion that in an earlier life, Beej bhai may have been the great Sringar ras poet Bihari himself! :)
This debate regarding z or j has no basis. In India we have our own language, and we will develop it as we please.
You might be referring to Sringar ras. And one has this suspicion that in an earlier life, Beej bhai may have been the great Sringar ras poet Bihari himself! :)
This debate regarding z or j has no basis. In India we have our own language, and we will develop it as we please.
#92 Posted by VRV on October 22, 2006 2:12:44 pm
Re: # 91
Pl read as:
Muslim Leaguer once said that Congress wud force Muslims to call madrasa by jaw-breaking word i.e. vidyapeeth. My friends, has anybody broken ur jaws by now? If yes, pardon our Hindi.
i/o
Muslim Leaguer once said that Congress wud force us to call a madrasa by a jaw-breaking word i.e. vidyapeeth. My friends, has anybody broken ur jaws by now? If yes, pardon our Hindi.
Pl read as:
Muslim Leaguer once said that Congress wud force Muslims to call madrasa by jaw-breaking word i.e. vidyapeeth. My friends, has anybody broken ur jaws by now? If yes, pardon our Hindi.
i/o
Muslim Leaguer once said that Congress wud force us to call a madrasa by a jaw-breaking word i.e. vidyapeeth. My friends, has anybody broken ur jaws by now? If yes, pardon our Hindi.
#91 Posted by VRV on October 22, 2006 1:52:53 pm
Re: # 82
BJ,
Is that (goatee) you? Why dont u rake-up this Hindi-Urdu debate? I promise that wud pitchfork ur page to 500+ hits....u know the guy does the same with Gandhi-Jinnah debate to ptomote his boards!
Urdu is a sophisticated language of the elite in India for long. Though it started as a court language, it became part of Hindustani/north Indian consciousness. The conflcit between Hindu and Urdu is coterminus with the conflcit between the elite of Hindus and Muslims. Urdu is more of a poetic language. Unlike Hindi, it was infinitely flexible for use in designing as well. Shajahan was a calligraphy expert, btw.
In the end it sounds funny that Hindi and Urdu are rivals, whereas their mothers Sankrit and Persian are siblings????
Not funny, really! India and Pakistan are siblings but we fight everyday till we bleed!
Hindi came as official language of India with a wafer-thin majority in parliament (i.e one vote) in free India, else Hindi wud have been another regional language by now and Bhojpuri elevated to the level of a language (now it`s dialect of Hindi). However thanks to Hindi there are many Hindi words in English now eg. pandit, mantra, avatar etc.... even Muslims in India use Hindi words as a matter of routine.
Honestly I cudnt make out of the debate BJ is engaged-in abt z,j and Rafi etc...it`s all over my head as Hindi is a `foreign` language to me (exaggerated).
Muslim Leaguer once said that Congress wud force us to call a madrasa by a jaw-breaking word i.e. vidyapeeth. My friends, has anybody broken ur jaws by now? If yes, pardon our Hindi.
With a mere 8% Urdu speakers Pakistan boasts of Urdu as the royal language of Pureland, whereas with 55%, Punjabi is a regional langauge! Fun of the funs!
Good Luck BJ.
BJ,
Is that (goatee) you? Why dont u rake-up this Hindi-Urdu debate? I promise that wud pitchfork ur page to 500+ hits....u know the guy does the same with Gandhi-Jinnah debate to ptomote his boards!
Urdu is a sophisticated language of the elite in India for long. Though it started as a court language, it became part of Hindustani/north Indian consciousness. The conflcit between Hindu and Urdu is coterminus with the conflcit between the elite of Hindus and Muslims. Urdu is more of a poetic language. Unlike Hindi, it was infinitely flexible for use in designing as well. Shajahan was a calligraphy expert, btw.
In the end it sounds funny that Hindi and Urdu are rivals, whereas their mothers Sankrit and Persian are siblings????
Not funny, really! India and Pakistan are siblings but we fight everyday till we bleed!
Hindi came as official language of India with a wafer-thin majority in parliament (i.e one vote) in free India, else Hindi wud have been another regional language by now and Bhojpuri elevated to the level of a language (now it`s dialect of Hindi). However thanks to Hindi there are many Hindi words in English now eg. pandit, mantra, avatar etc.... even Muslims in India use Hindi words as a matter of routine.
Honestly I cudnt make out of the debate BJ is engaged-in abt z,j and Rafi etc...it`s all over my head as Hindi is a `foreign` language to me (exaggerated).
Muslim Leaguer once said that Congress wud force us to call a madrasa by a jaw-breaking word i.e. vidyapeeth. My friends, has anybody broken ur jaws by now? If yes, pardon our Hindi.
With a mere 8% Urdu speakers Pakistan boasts of Urdu as the royal language of Pureland, whereas with 55%, Punjabi is a regional langauge! Fun of the funs!
Good Luck BJ.
#90 Posted by anil on October 22, 2006 1:39:22 pm
BJ:
This poem from Neeraj has been sung in ``Nai Umar Ki Nai Fasal``. In fact are other poems of his in this movie - ``Dekhti hi no raho aaj darpan youn tum, pyar ka yeh muhurat nikal jayega....``
HamidM Sahib:
Hindi is quite rich. In fact it has 52 alphabets, while Urdu has only 23 (???). Hindi aplhabets are phonetics, and can represent more phonems, and sound. So the pronunciation is far more evolved in its own way. Even vowels are more in Hindi - ``a AA, e EE, ..... Hindi consonents are organized into categories that are defined by the variance in nasal, use of tongue, when you breath out (Ushm Swar Vyanjan - means hot sound consents). These are Sh, Shh, Sa, Ha...
Influence of Urdu made many of the consonents redundant, and their pronunciation has been lost. Urdu does not have these sounds. In fact it must represent at 52 phonems, by 23. That is why there is ambguity in Urdu, as it relies on imprecise representation. This ambiguity is also the reason that Urdu has a rich Romance Literature and Gazals. Although, Hindi literature is divided into ``Ras`` - Hasya Ras (comedy), Vir Ras (bravery), there is also a Ras for romance, it name is slipping from my mind right now. Neeraj tried to write in this romance Ras. The line that I have quoted is an example.
The linguist confirm that the language with most consonents is more evolved. The least evolved being the languages of the people of Pacific Island, inclulding Hawaiian.
No doubt that Hindi does not have Z, but it has now accepted it, by representing this sound, by putting a ``.`` under ``J``.
Earlier Urdu dominated Hindi, now Hindi is dominated by English or Hinglilsh. Pure Hindi no one can speak, and probably never spoke.
Anil
This poem from Neeraj has been sung in ``Nai Umar Ki Nai Fasal``. In fact are other poems of his in this movie - ``Dekhti hi no raho aaj darpan youn tum, pyar ka yeh muhurat nikal jayega....``
HamidM Sahib:
Hindi is quite rich. In fact it has 52 alphabets, while Urdu has only 23 (???). Hindi aplhabets are phonetics, and can represent more phonems, and sound. So the pronunciation is far more evolved in its own way. Even vowels are more in Hindi - ``a AA, e EE, ..... Hindi consonents are organized into categories that are defined by the variance in nasal, use of tongue, when you breath out (Ushm Swar Vyanjan - means hot sound consents). These are Sh, Shh, Sa, Ha...
Influence of Urdu made many of the consonents redundant, and their pronunciation has been lost. Urdu does not have these sounds. In fact it must represent at 52 phonems, by 23. That is why there is ambguity in Urdu, as it relies on imprecise representation. This ambiguity is also the reason that Urdu has a rich Romance Literature and Gazals. Although, Hindi literature is divided into ``Ras`` - Hasya Ras (comedy), Vir Ras (bravery), there is also a Ras for romance, it name is slipping from my mind right now. Neeraj tried to write in this romance Ras. The line that I have quoted is an example.
The linguist confirm that the language with most consonents is more evolved. The least evolved being the languages of the people of Pacific Island, inclulding Hawaiian.
No doubt that Hindi does not have Z, but it has now accepted it, by representing this sound, by putting a ``.`` under ``J``.
Earlier Urdu dominated Hindi, now Hindi is dominated by English or Hinglilsh. Pure Hindi no one can speak, and probably never spoke.
Anil
#89 Posted by bjkumar on October 22, 2006 9:36:11 am
#88 Aquaris
Yaar, you worry too much about trivial things!
Let me solve ONE of your problems!
[by the way I am running out of my quota of internet hours, and my have to disconect, any time.]
Get broadband!
#88 Posted by aquaris on October 22, 2006 7:33:14 am
No honestly , I too am stuck in that `` J `` and `` z`` thing,
its too much....
and I like Humongous Entertainment , they make great children games.
PS this is what was written on www.answers.com about Humongous Entertainment
Formed in 1992 as Humongous Entertainment, it is known for point-and-click adventure games, intended for children 3-8, such as the Putt-Putt series, and the Pajama Sam and Freddi Fish franchises
Will then it fit somewhere , in this discussion.......!!.....NO......??...... YES........?? .....what...??
by the way I am running out of my quota of internet hours, and my have to disconect, any time.
#87 Posted by bjkumar on October 22, 2006 7:16:41 am
#86 Aquaris
Sorry, no can do!
An apology does not cut it!
An apology does not even BEGIN to cut it!
I am coming after you with a humongous stick.
Just as soon as I am done resolving this issue of ``j`` versus ``z``!
And a few other serious problems of the world!
Was there any part of this translation that you LIKED?
#86 Posted by aquaris on October 22, 2006 7:07:49 am
Re: # 85
I am sorry
MY BAD...
I appologize, I thought it was an old one......again My BAD...
I am sorry
MY BAD...
I appologize, I thought it was an old one......again My BAD...
#85 Posted by bjkumar on October 22, 2006 5:58:32 am
#84 Aquaris
[I don`t know if Mr Neeraj is alive]
Yaar Aqua, you don`t like to read very much, do you?
His interview from LAST WEEK appears right below your nose (in #83), for crying out loud!
Or are you that eternal pessimist - thinking of all sorts of dire events that would have occured during that short time frame?!!
#84 Posted by aquaris on October 22, 2006 5:50:59 am
Poor Mohammed Rafi
Mr BJ , I think you should spank Mr Mohammed Rafi , for singing `` Gujar Giya ``
as `` Guzar Giya `.
but shocks, he is no more, I don`t know if Mr Neeraj is alive, how about , skinning him...??
....I think when a `` Gaaon ki Goori `` will sing she would use `` Julmi `` ,
else any one else , say a college girl she will sing `` Zulmi `
[ This Gaoon ki Gori , and educated College girl was a constant theme in the films of yore wasn`t it.....? ?? ]
...so the use of `` J `` or `` Z `` , was dependent on who , or which character, with what particular background was singing it....
Mr BJ , I think you should spank Mr Mohammed Rafi , for singing `` Gujar Giya ``
as `` Guzar Giya `.
but shocks, he is no more, I don`t know if Mr Neeraj is alive, how about , skinning him...??
....I think when a `` Gaaon ki Goori `` will sing she would use `` Julmi `` ,
else any one else , say a college girl she will sing `` Zulmi `
[ This Gaoon ki Gori , and educated College girl was a constant theme in the films of yore wasn`t it.....? ?? ]
...so the use of `` J `` or `` Z `` , was dependent on who , or which character, with what particular background was singing it....
#83 Posted by bjkumar on October 22, 2006 5:40:23 am
From a Times of India article published October 16, 2006.
Is Gandhigiri relevant today?
Iti Shree Misra
Asks noted poet and lyricist Padamshree Gopal Das ‘Neeraj’ as he talks to us about why he quit working for Bollywood and the lost glory of Hindi language.
Noted poet and lyricist, Padamshree Gopal Das ‘Neeraj’ is rightly called the poet laureate of India. His works as a poet, lyricist and writer, have so far got him innumerable awards including the Padamshree, Sahitya Vachaspati, Yash Bharati, Geet Samrat and Geet Kaushtabh.
Neeraj’s life has been spent in the company of words. His academic excellence led him to an 18-year teaching career in Aligarh and Meerut, after which he quit his job and took to writing poetry. As he says, “My love for poetry surpasses everything else. I will continue to write poetry till I die.”
Saddened by the condition of poetry and Hindi literature in the country today, he says, “In our times, we took pains writing poetry. Each and every word was well thought over. Nowadays, it’s written in free verse. I don’t consider that poetry.”
So is poetry a diminishing art in India, we ask? “Yes, more or less, especially Hindi poetry,” he answers, adding, “Poetry is losing its place, but its need and relevance will arise with each passing moment. It rouses feelings of compassion and pathos in a person, which human beings have lost today. These days everyone is talking about Gandhigiri, but is it relevant today?”
In a career spanning just five years as a lyricist, Neeraj has penned some of the most memorable songs of Hindi cinema. Karwaan Guzar Gaya of Nayi Umar Ki Nayi Fasal, Kaaton se kheench ke yeh aanchal from Guide, Aye bhai, zaraa dekh ke chalo from Mera Naam Joker are just a few examples of his exemplary work as a lyricist.
Then why did he leave all of it so soon? “I was used to working with stalwarts like Shankar Jaikishan, SD Burman, Iqbal Quraishi, Jaidev etc. With them gone, I could not get along with many and discontinued writing for films. I suffered a big personal setback after SD Burman stopped working, as I was very fond of him. He had given the music for some of my most popular songs.”
But talking of contemporary lyricists, Gulzar and Javed Akhtar seem to find favour with the stalwart. Neeraj is also the Chairman of the Writers’ Association of India, President, Writers’ Forum of India and Executive President, UP Bhasha Sansthan. And in these capacities, he’s doing all he can to help develop our maatri bhasha some more. “I have asked the UP Government to increase the budget for the Bhasha Sansthan. But it’s not just Hindi, regional languages too have been neglected. So I’m trying to bring back their lost glory.”
And this is what Neeraj has to say as a parting shot, “Tum niklo jin gaaon se, suraj nikle un gaaon se!”
#82 Posted by bjkumar on October 22, 2006 4:40:12 am
And here is the ORIGINAL culprit (on the left, in his Atlanta visit of October 2004)

Not a bad looker for his age!
And not a bad hairline, either!
#80 Posted by burpinder on October 22, 2006 4:09:13 am
BJ, choot maaree kay, why do you insist on making an ass of yourself in full public view? HP is right, this ``translation`` is a piece of crap. Please stick to your own ``original`` work and don`t doodoo over the efforts of masters.
BTW, the ``z`` sound is usually written as the usual ``ja`` with a dot underneath to indicate the variance in pronunciation. I am shocked that a self-declared pandit like you is unaware of this.
Kya nasseb hai mera...came back to chowk after ages hoping to find something interesting, and this is smack what I land into.
Sheesh.
BTW, the ``z`` sound is usually written as the usual ``ja`` with a dot underneath to indicate the variance in pronunciation. I am shocked that a self-declared pandit like you is unaware of this.
Kya nasseb hai mera...came back to chowk after ages hoping to find something interesting, and this is smack what I land into.
Sheesh.
#79 Posted by bjkumar on October 21, 2006 9:31:48 pm
#76 by Urstruly
[Oye Beez, spare the urdu.]
Ama yaar, you know better than to challenge this simple person!
Tell you what, you start translating instead of just inserting those multitudes of Urdu images that you constantly lift from who-knows-where in violation of all known forms of copyright laws - and then there will be NO NEED for me to learn Urdu!
Besides, like the point that Ranjit tried to make in his own way – what IS Urdu but Hindi forced to undergo the contortions of a foreign script and force-fed the highly fattening non-vegetarian diet of a lot of Persian words which were then topped up with a bunch of Arabic ones!
And people wonder why the Jamalis are shaped the way they are!!!
And what better illustration of the overlapping of identities can there be – than the absolute confounding of all the “smart” chowkies who assumed that Neeraj’s original poem was written in Urdu?!!!
Now that it has been sixty whole years, I think it is about time the Pakistani crowds took the FIRST steps toward their eventual redemption!
Start out by acknowledging the truth!
Start out by singing –
“Hum kahlaayen Pakistani
Phir bhee dil hai Hindustani!”
#78 Posted by subhashjoshi on October 21, 2006 9:05:55 pm
Re: # 47 by Harimau
``ksheer`` is used sometimes, but not in everyday language. One example is ``ksheer-saagar`` (sea of milk).
Also ``kheer`` is a direct product of ksheer (with rice, sugar etc. thrown in).
``ksheer`` is used sometimes, but not in everyday language. One example is ``ksheer-saagar`` (sea of milk).
Also ``kheer`` is a direct product of ksheer (with rice, sugar etc. thrown in).
#77 Posted by hamidm2 on October 21, 2006 8:48:57 pm
....... you know what is really odd? ......... even though i started this silly debate because i had nothing better to do, i actually agree with bj - languages evolve and a bihari wants to say “gujar gaya” instead of ``guzar gaya`` it is perfectly okay ......... i am still more upset at the pakis who replaced my persian khuda with the arabic al-lah which left me a man without a religion .......... thank god ramadhan will be over tomorrow and we can celebrate the pagan festival of eid ............
......... happy diwali
#75 Posted by krishna_abcd on October 21, 2006 5:13:16 pm
Re: # 74 by harimau
[Urdu is Persianized Hindustani written in Urdu script and, just to be perverse, written right to left. ]
Urdu is written using the Nasta`liq script (developed in Islamic Persia) which is a style of calligraphy for writing Arabic script. And Arabic is written right to left.
And Urdu is Persianized AND Arabicized (in short Islamified or Camel-dung-ified) Hindustani.
[Urdu is Persianized Hindustani written in Urdu script and, just to be perverse, written right to left. ]
Urdu is written using the Nasta`liq script (developed in Islamic Persia) which is a style of calligraphy for writing Arabic script. And Arabic is written right to left.
And Urdu is Persianized AND Arabicized (in short Islamified or Camel-dung-ified) Hindustani.
#74 Posted by harimau on October 21, 2006 5:01:14 pm
Ref ranjit #53
[Hamid chacha, hindi does have a `z` word and it is used precisely as it is used in urdu. For e.g. poison is ``zahar``, not ``jahar`` or the word for need is ``zaroorat`` not ``jaroorat``.
So irrespective BJ`s protestations, there is no difference between hindi and urdu. Maybe BJ speaks Bhojpuri or Awadhi or some other bihari dialect, not real hindi. If you come to Delhi, the hindi spoken there is the real hindi and it is exactly like urdu.]
You are right. Hindi is merely Hindustani/Urdu made uglier by the use of improbable Sanskrit words and written in Devanagari script. Urdu is Persianized Hindustani written in Urdu script and, just to be perverse, written right to left.
My cousins, nephews and nieces who grew up in New Delhi understood Urdu though they couldn`t read the script.
[Hamid chacha, hindi does have a `z` word and it is used precisely as it is used in urdu. For e.g. poison is ``zahar``, not ``jahar`` or the word for need is ``zaroorat`` not ``jaroorat``.
So irrespective BJ`s protestations, there is no difference between hindi and urdu. Maybe BJ speaks Bhojpuri or Awadhi or some other bihari dialect, not real hindi. If you come to Delhi, the hindi spoken there is the real hindi and it is exactly like urdu.]
You are right. Hindi is merely Hindustani/Urdu made uglier by the use of improbable Sanskrit words and written in Devanagari script. Urdu is Persianized Hindustani written in Urdu script and, just to be perverse, written right to left.
My cousins, nephews and nieces who grew up in New Delhi understood Urdu though they couldn`t read the script.
#73 Posted by friend on October 21, 2006 3:56:53 pm
Ranjit & Hamidm sahib,
When BJ is insisting on lack of ``z`` in Hindi, he is not ``biharifying`` hindi speakers. Traditional hindi does not have a sound for ``z``. Extensions have been created for newer sounds e.g. ``au`` and ``z``, but imposing them on all is really as bad as someone trying to impose sanskrit as Hindi.
When BJ is insisting on lack of ``z`` in Hindi, he is not ``biharifying`` hindi speakers. Traditional hindi does not have a sound for ``z``. Extensions have been created for newer sounds e.g. ``au`` and ``z``, but imposing them on all is really as bad as someone trying to impose sanskrit as Hindi.
#72 Posted by Ranjit on October 21, 2006 2:22:10 pm
Re:bj#68
[...My position is that “gujar gaya” is a highly legitimate way to say it if large number of Indians are singing it that way – which seems to be the case, the tears of self-styled Pakistani “linguists” notwithstanding! ....]
BJ bhaiyya, you are ``biharifying`` all hindi speakers. :-) Please cease and desist!!
Only biharis like Laloos and Rabris with a `gamcha` (towel) on their head are singing `gujar gaya`. Mohd. Rafi himself doesnt sing it like that, nor do most people I know of.
Having said that, let me compliment you on your otherwise superb taste in music and poetry. That song is awesome and the poetry by Neeraj is brilliant. When Neeraj was visting US in 2004, I heard his interview on the TV program - `Abhi to main jawaan hoon` on TVAsia. That man is one amazing poet.
Neeraj was recounting an event when music director SD Burman asked him to compose the lyrics for a song starting with `Rangeela` on a women who is scorned by her lover. He came up with this incredible song -
Rangeela re, tere rang mein, yoo rangaa hain, meraa man
Chhaliyaa re, naa bujhe hain, kisee jal se ye jalan
Just note the word play on ``jal`` and ``jalan``. Jalan is her pain on being scorned by her lover. Jal is a metaphor for liquor (alchohol), which maps brilliantly with Jalan in that her pain cannot be mitigated by liquor. That`s some cool lyrics!!
[...My position is that “gujar gaya” is a highly legitimate way to say it if large number of Indians are singing it that way – which seems to be the case, the tears of self-styled Pakistani “linguists” notwithstanding! ....]
BJ bhaiyya, you are ``biharifying`` all hindi speakers. :-) Please cease and desist!!
Only biharis like Laloos and Rabris with a `gamcha` (towel) on their head are singing `gujar gaya`. Mohd. Rafi himself doesnt sing it like that, nor do most people I know of.
Having said that, let me compliment you on your otherwise superb taste in music and poetry. That song is awesome and the poetry by Neeraj is brilliant. When Neeraj was visting US in 2004, I heard his interview on the TV program - `Abhi to main jawaan hoon` on TVAsia. That man is one amazing poet.
Neeraj was recounting an event when music director SD Burman asked him to compose the lyrics for a song starting with `Rangeela` on a women who is scorned by her lover. He came up with this incredible song -
Rangeela re, tere rang mein, yoo rangaa hain, meraa man
Chhaliyaa re, naa bujhe hain, kisee jal se ye jalan
Just note the word play on ``jal`` and ``jalan``. Jalan is her pain on being scorned by her lover. Jal is a metaphor for liquor (alchohol), which maps brilliantly with Jalan in that her pain cannot be mitigated by liquor. That`s some cool lyrics!!
#71 Posted by bjkumar on October 21, 2006 12:12:40 pm
#54 HP
Mian HP, this is nothing! Just wait till I start translating the Ghalib!
#70 Posted by bjkumar on October 21, 2006 12:09:45 pm
#63 Nasah
Nasah sahib, thank you for that insightful comment!
#69 Posted by bjkumar on October 21, 2006 12:08:05 pm
#59 Boomer
Long association with the “phoren” crowd has warped your memories and your understanding was perhaps already damaged irreparably beforehand in the land of the Pure!
Even the grade school kids in the subcontinent know the bird “koyal” or cuckoo for its beautiful singing! It is not associated with being a fruitcake of the variety this site is teeming with!
And no lip from you is ever going to keep me from showing up on any boards I choose to – and certainly not from mine, for sure!
No matter how much you sing that line!
What are you – a cuckoo?!!
#68 Posted by bjkumar on October 21, 2006 11:49:18 am
#Ranjit
Hindi is a phonetic language. It is written EXACTLY the way it sounds. Therefore, using one or more elements of its alphabet, it is possible to recreate virtually any letter of any alphabet in any part of the world. That does not mean that every letter of every alphabet in every part of the world is automatically a member of Hindi alphabet.
So there! Don’t give me any more lip on this! I showed you TWO different pictures of the alphabet. There IS no “z”, case closed!
#various
Here is how I see it.
Languages evolve. One of the ways they evolve is by taking new words – for example, to accommodate new technology. Another of the ways is to simple take existing words from another language – usually a neighboring language through interaction. There is also the tendency of simplification of words – as we see in the “American” English
The Hindi/Urdu word “Izzat” for example, is pronounced “Eizzaat” in its original Arabic even though it is written “Ezzat” which is close in look to the subcontinental word. The word retains the same meaning but it got “adopted” and its pronunciation changed.
It will be absolutely asinine for the “protectors” of the source language to cry foul over such natural evolution – which is how languages keep themselves alive and propagate! If there is to be one RIGHT version, which is it? The source version or the version which gets most used?!
Which seldom seems to stop such self-styled “protectors” – when they are awake – from crying foul, as we see some of the Pakistanis do here – what with these folks crying worse than any violated ladies could over raise their volumes to!
The days when an emperor could issue a decree and make himself a chief executive of a country or declare that everybody should pronounce a particular word in a particular way – those days are gone almost everywhere!
My position is that “gujar gaya” is a highly legitimate way to say it if large number of Indians are singing it that way – which seems to be the case, the tears of self-styled Pakistani “linguists” notwithstanding!
Languages evolve – some Pakistanis’ thinking never seems to!
#67 Posted by GT on October 21, 2006 11:05:01 am
Re: # 66 continuation
OK, I take that back. But let me ask the expert:
Why did Hindvi, split into Urdu and Hindi?
OK, I take that back. But let me ask the expert:
Why did Hindvi, split into Urdu and Hindi?
#66 Posted by GT on October 21, 2006 10:28:19 am
A question for the experts:
What is the contribution of Amir Khusro to Hindi - Urdu?
#65 Posted by echoboom on October 21, 2006 10:19:57 am
nasah:64
It is: ``Doa NainaaN, matwaaray tihaaray , hUm pUr julUm kraiN ....``
But bad/poor pronunciation does not necessarily defines a geet.
Now this one is great , on all counts. Good Lyrics, Good dance, and Good composition.....and so much ``No does not always mean no`` situation. Oh how fondly she recalls in detail the ``happening``.
Murli bairan
It is: ``Doa NainaaN, matwaaray tihaaray , hUm pUr julUm kraiN ....``
But bad/poor pronunciation does not necessarily defines a geet.
Now this one is great , on all counts. Good Lyrics, Good dance, and Good composition.....and so much ``No does not always mean no`` situation. Oh how fondly she recalls in detail the ``happening``.
Murli bairan
#64 Posted by nasah on October 21, 2006 9:51:28 am
or something like -- ``do julmi nainaN hum pur juluma karaiN`` -- do `Zulmi nainaN` -- how aweful...!
#63 Posted by nasah on October 21, 2006 9:43:25 am
Hamidm, echo, Ranjit and BJKS:
Hindi is great for geets -- Urdu can`t compete with Hindi in that sphere -- and Geet and Bhajans Z must be pronounced as J -- for example just think of this bund how awful it will sound in Urdu -- lay gaya jalim chora kur sonay ki janjeer bhi -- lay gaya zalim chora kur sonay ki zanzeer bhi....:)
BJ -- previous post just kidding -- nice translation.
Hindi is great for geets -- Urdu can`t compete with Hindi in that sphere -- and Geet and Bhajans Z must be pronounced as J -- for example just think of this bund how awful it will sound in Urdu -- lay gaya jalim chora kur sonay ki janjeer bhi -- lay gaya zalim chora kur sonay ki zanzeer bhi....:)
BJ -- previous post just kidding -- nice translation.
#62 Posted by echoboom on October 21, 2006 9:24:31 am
#58 /61by ranjit.
That clarifies it. This sound ``Z`` is borrowed and is now part of our Hindvi or Urdu. There is no, but IS, such language as ``hindi``.
zinda, zindagi, bazaar, guzar, zaroorat, zahar, zara, zabardast ...are all farsi words.
.``........except for the latest tendency in Pakistan to add a lot more arabic to it..........``
zinda, zindagi, bazaar, guzar, zaroorat, zahar, zara, zabardast ...are all farsi words.
There is no official/unofficial policy in Pakistan, unlike that in India, to ``manufacture`` the language. The Urdu language of the newspapers from your Hyderabad has better or proper
communication-ability or diction than any of the ones in Pakistan. It has far more exact word-usage from Farsi/arabie which words if replaced by ones from any ``natives`` language would ruin the exposition.
That clarifies it. This sound ``Z`` is borrowed and is now part of our Hindvi or Urdu. There is no, but IS, such language as ``hindi``.
zinda, zindagi, bazaar, guzar, zaroorat, zahar, zara, zabardast ...are all farsi words.
.``........except for the latest tendency in Pakistan to add a lot more arabic to it..........``
zinda, zindagi, bazaar, guzar, zaroorat, zahar, zara, zabardast ...are all farsi words.
There is no official/unofficial policy in Pakistan, unlike that in India, to ``manufacture`` the language. The Urdu language of the newspapers from your Hyderabad has better or proper
communication-ability or diction than any of the ones in Pakistan. It has far more exact word-usage from Farsi/arabie which words if replaced by ones from any ``natives`` language would ruin the exposition.
#61 Posted by Ranjit on October 21, 2006 8:53:56 am
Re:echo#55
The `z` based examples that come to mind are - zinda, zindagi, bazaar, guzar, zaroorat, zahar, zara, zabardast etc. For instance, everyone says - ``Main bazaar jaa raha hoon`` and not ``Main bajaar jaa raha hoon``. I dont know how BJ says it, but that is how everyone else says it.
Granted these words are used in Urdu, but then I dont accept any distinction between the two languages, except for the latest tendency in Pakistan to add a lot more arabic to it.
The `z` based examples that come to mind are - zinda, zindagi, bazaar, guzar, zaroorat, zahar, zara, zabardast etc. For instance, everyone says - ``Main bazaar jaa raha hoon`` and not ``Main bajaar jaa raha hoon``. I dont know how BJ says it, but that is how everyone else says it.
Granted these words are used in Urdu, but then I dont accept any distinction between the two languages, except for the latest tendency in Pakistan to add a lot more arabic to it.
#60 Posted by Ranjit on October 21, 2006 8:44:59 am
Re:bj#57
By the way, BJ bhaiyya, the technical word in hindi for that ``dot`` under `j` to make it `z` is ``nukhta``, just in case you engage some linguist to check out my post!!
By the way, BJ bhaiyya, the technical word in hindi for that ``dot`` under `j` to make it `z` is ``nukhta``, just in case you engage some linguist to check out my post!!
#59 Posted by echoboom on October 21, 2006 8:33:57 am
bj:57
Please rest assured. We sir, are from the land of the “koyal” or cuckoos.
Just speak for yourself or maybe your family; why call the rest of the crores ``Cuckoos``?
If you had even little IQ you won`t show up on this board again
Please rest assured. We sir, are from the land of the “koyal” or cuckoos.
Just speak for yourself or maybe your family; why call the rest of the crores ``Cuckoos``?
If you had even little IQ you won`t show up on this board again
#58 Posted by Ranjit on October 21, 2006 8:32:50 am
Re:bjkumar#56
[..Far be it from me to jump in the middle of this chaha-bhateeja heart-to-heart, but like the third line in the first picture below indicates, perhaps it is time to revisit the basics. And if you can, point me out the missing ``z`` - perhaps I can learn something new. ....]
BJ bhaiyya, so now I have to give you hindi tuition?
Dont you know that in hindi, if you put a ``dot`` under `j`, it becomes `z`? Jeez!! Note, I didnt say, Jeej!!
[..Far be it from me to jump in the middle of this chaha-bhateeja heart-to-heart, but like the third line in the first picture below indicates, perhaps it is time to revisit the basics. And if you can, point me out the missing ``z`` - perhaps I can learn something new. ....]
BJ bhaiyya, so now I have to give you hindi tuition?
Dont you know that in hindi, if you put a ``dot`` under `j`, it becomes `z`? Jeez!! Note, I didnt say, Jeej!!
#57 Posted by bjkumar on October 21, 2006 8:28:24 am
#Boomer and HP
The following excerpt is worth repeating just for your benefit!
Therefore, at the risk of repeating myself....
(from #41)
[Please rest assured. We sir, are from the land of the “koyal” or cuckoos – no matter how often you all – the lost ones on the wrong side of the border – try to pass yourselves off as inhabitants of the land of the bulbul – that bird shall forever stay a rare bird in the subcontinent – unless of the caged variety! Nature saw to that and there is not a single thing that you can do about it!
Pakistani attempts to deny the Sanskrit origins of Urdu by using a different, foreign script and by consciously excluding the local words and trying to adapt by force many other words from their native origin to an artificial Persian format are doomed to fail!
It is like denying your very own genes!
It is like a beautiful woman who is trying to pass herself off as a bearded ruffian by dressing up in ruffian-like clothes and carefully switching to the language of the gutter!
When it comes to having sex, however, such a woman has no alternative except to have it the “old-fashioned” way – the way nature intended her to! No amount of being “gay” and pretending to be a stud will work!
It never has and it never shall!
Let there be sex! ]
#56 Posted by bjkumar on October 21, 2006 8:19:08 am
#53 Ranjit
[Hamid chacha, hindi does have a `z` word and it is used precisely as it is used in urdu.]
Far be it from me to jump in the middle of this chaha-bhateeja heart-to-heart, but like the third line in the first picture below indicates, perhaps it is time to revisit the basics. And if you can, point me out the missing ``z`` - perhaps I can learn something new.
Or as it says in that third line: Padhoe aur yaad karoe!!


#55 Posted by echoboom on October 21, 2006 8:14:55 am
ranjit:53
very interesting.
Could you please give an example of some hindi words , preferably daily usage ones, which have ``Z`` phonetic? any original name of city town village with the ``Z`` sound?
very interesting.
Could you please give an example of some hindi words , preferably daily usage ones, which have ``Z`` phonetic? any original name of city town village with the ``Z`` sound?
#54 Posted by HP on October 21, 2006 8:04:40 am
What a mistake! On this Saturday morning, I woke up early and was thinking of catching up on news and here I am looking at this horrible translation.
Now how does this:
Karwan gujar gaya, gubar(shit) dekhte rahey
Translates in to this:
Gone is caravan - seek my eyes in vain
All I see is dust - dust full cloudy train
Karwan gujar gaya, gubar(shit) dekhte rahey
This actually means all Gujars have gone only shit is left
I don’t recall this song but I am familiar with the phrase “Karwan guzar giya ghubaar dekhtay rehay.” The concept in poetic terms is absolutely, phenomenally exquisite but once you let uncouth translate, they would go for the literal translation without capturing the essence of the poetry and make a mess of good poetry to the point of absurdity and then take pride in their efforts.
As others have pointed out, if the translator had little understanding of Urdu/Hindi, he would have grasped what the poet meant when he said, “Karwan guzar giya ghubaar dekhtay rehay.”
Translating this into “dust and the cloudy train” has to be one the most vulgar translation I have ever read of a beautiful phrase. Here the poet is talking in Ishara and kinaya and we have an uncouth, uneducated translator translating “Ghubaar” to dust.
The rule of thumb always is: If you don’t understand the subtleness, don’t translate.
The translator claims to know Hindi language but this translation clearly tells us that he/she only has street level understanding of Urdu/Hindi so clearly the meaning of the poetry is lost on this uncouth translator.
I tried to read the whole thing but as I read the original work I realized that you can ONLY scorn the untalented hicks who mess with good work by some quality writers and poets.
I am just so pissed.
Read this fine thought process:
Neend bhi khulee na thee, ki haye dhoop dhal gayee
And now read this horrible shit of a translation:
Lingers in my eyes - drowsiness of the sleep
Daylight so, so bright - now becomes twilight deep
God bless Chowk Staff for proving opportunities to some horribly uncultured people to pretend otherwise.
For once I admire harimau (#42) for picking the essence of this translation and comparing it to “Tim buck two“.
#53 Posted by Ranjit on October 21, 2006 7:51:53 am
Re:hamidm all
Hamid chacha, hindi does have a `z` word and it is used precisely as it is used in urdu. For e.g. poison is ``zahar``, not ``jahar`` or the word for need is ``zaroorat`` not ``jaroorat``.
So irrespective BJ`s protestations, there is no difference between hindi and urdu. Maybe BJ speaks Bhojpuri or Awadhi or some other bihari dialect, not real hindi. If you come to Delhi, the hindi spoken there is the real hindi and it is exactly like urdu.
Hamid chacha, hindi does have a `z` word and it is used precisely as it is used in urdu. For e.g. poison is ``zahar``, not ``jahar`` or the word for need is ``zaroorat`` not ``jaroorat``.
So irrespective BJ`s protestations, there is no difference between hindi and urdu. Maybe BJ speaks Bhojpuri or Awadhi or some other bihari dialect, not real hindi. If you come to Delhi, the hindi spoken there is the real hindi and it is exactly like urdu.
#52 Posted by Ranjit on October 21, 2006 7:43:06 am
Re:echo#44
[...The herd of Cattle has passed, and all we kept looking at was the cowdung (it left in its wake). ...]
Ha ha!! Dude, that was hilarious!!
I went and listened to the song, Mohd Rafi sings it as ``Karwan guzar gaya, ghubar dekhte rahey``. So I dont know were BJ is getting his gujars and gobars!! Must be some hearing problem.
[...The herd of Cattle has passed, and all we kept looking at was the cowdung (it left in its wake). ...]
Ha ha!! Dude, that was hilarious!!
I went and listened to the song, Mohd Rafi sings it as ``Karwan guzar gaya, ghubar dekhte rahey``. So I dont know were BJ is getting his gujars and gobars!! Must be some hearing problem.
#51 Posted by hamidm2 on October 21, 2006 7:23:15 am
echo,
.... just eat the maigness and throw away the milk ....... milk, pe, shodo or sheer is wasted on those who live in dark caves, just as adrak(ginger) is wasted on macacas who live in trees ............
#50 Posted by echoboom on October 21, 2006 7:07:53 am
Hamidm2:
Your comedy, now more than before, is like giving doodh with maingnees in it. I think you are a much more tormented soul than the image you so desperately try to portray here.
They say Atta Mohammed of the 9/11 fame had a simiar lifestyle & worldview as yours before he went completely bonkers.
I could have suggested you to consult the CHOWK psychilist, but then he is a bigger nutcase than yourself.
Your comedy, now more than before, is like giving doodh with maingnees in it. I think you are a much more tormented soul than the image you so desperately try to portray here.
They say Atta Mohammed of the 9/11 fame had a simiar lifestyle & worldview as yours before he went completely bonkers.
I could have suggested you to consult the CHOWK psychilist, but then he is a bigger nutcase than yourself.
#49 Posted by hamidm2 on October 21, 2006 6:31:05 am
Re: # 47
......... harimau, if it makes you feel any better my grandpa probably said all that to kid grandma - she was pushto speaking while he was dari(farsi) speaking ......... and since my father was a punjabi he also used to call me a ``dal khor, teez mar bachaiya`` (son of a dal eating farter) .......... it was all in good humor - he was the most gentle and loving person i ever met .....
......... as for milk, my mother always called it shodo and hated people who called it pe ......... inspite of grandpa`s best efforts nobody called it sheer - the dari language died with him ......
......... harimau, if it makes you feel any better my grandpa probably said all that to kid grandma - she was pushto speaking while he was dari(farsi) speaking ......... and since my father was a punjabi he also used to call me a ``dal khor, teez mar bachaiya`` (son of a dal eating farter) .......... it was all in good humor - he was the most gentle and loving person i ever met .....
......... as for milk, my mother always called it shodo and hated people who called it pe ......... inspite of grandpa`s best efforts nobody called it sheer - the dari language died with him ......
#48 Posted by harimau on October 21, 2006 5:56:13 am
Ref harimau #47
That post, dear hamidm, was not to defend the honor of Hindi -- which I despise -- but to point out historical facts.
That post, dear hamidm, was not to defend the honor of Hindi -- which I despise -- but to point out historical facts.
#47 Posted by harimau on October 21, 2006 5:54:35 am
Ref hamidm2 #27
[...... sorry, i didn`t know there was an actual language called hindi - i always thought it was a street version of urdu spoken by paan-walas, homeless biharis, and other riff-raff ........
....... in any case the languages of the subcontinent (with the exception) of urdu are pretty crude ...]
The very word ``Urdu`` is derived from ``horde``, meaning that it was a language of the army camps. Urdu is a mixture of several languages, including Persian, Hindi, Turkish and the Turkic languages spoken in Central Asia. So it would be more appropriate to call Urdu the language of the riff-raffs.
[...... as my grandpa used to say :`` urdul sheer ast, farsi sheero o` shakar ast, pukhto goz e khar ast`` (urdu is like milk, farsi is like milk and sugar, pushto is like a donkey`s fart ) ..........]
That word ``sheer`` sounds suspiciously close to the word ``ksheera`` in Sanskrit, meaning milk. The letter `ksh` is actually a compound letter in Sanskrit and most people find it hard to pronounce so I wouldn`t be surprised to find that you guys dropped the `k` from it and pronounced it `sheer`. I don`t think Hindi uses ``sheer`` for milk; I believe the Northies commonly use ``doodh``.
[...... sorry, i didn`t know there was an actual language called hindi - i always thought it was a street version of urdu spoken by paan-walas, homeless biharis, and other riff-raff ........
....... in any case the languages of the subcontinent (with the exception) of urdu are pretty crude ...]
The very word ``Urdu`` is derived from ``horde``, meaning that it was a language of the army camps. Urdu is a mixture of several languages, including Persian, Hindi, Turkish and the Turkic languages spoken in Central Asia. So it would be more appropriate to call Urdu the language of the riff-raffs.
[...... as my grandpa used to say :`` urdul sheer ast, farsi sheero o` shakar ast, pukhto goz e khar ast`` (urdu is like milk, farsi is like milk and sugar, pushto is like a donkey`s fart ) ..........]
That word ``sheer`` sounds suspiciously close to the word ``ksheera`` in Sanskrit, meaning milk. The letter `ksh` is actually a compound letter in Sanskrit and most people find it hard to pronounce so I wouldn`t be surprised to find that you guys dropped the `k` from it and pronounced it `sheer`. I don`t think Hindi uses ``sheer`` for milk; I believe the Northies commonly use ``doodh``.
#46 Posted by hamidm2 on October 21, 2006 5:38:14 am
Re: # 43
echoboom.
........... it must be a cold day in hell ! ..... but i do appreciate your help on this one - now you can go back to chewing on your muslim dental stick and reciting surat al-qaeda ......... lord, i am caught between the devil and the deep blue sea ! .......... but push come to shove i will have to embrace bj - hindi, heeng and all! .......... laholaywala quwat !
echoboom.
........... it must be a cold day in hell ! ..... but i do appreciate your help on this one - now you can go back to chewing on your muslim dental stick and reciting surat al-qaeda ......... lord, i am caught between the devil and the deep blue sea ! .......... but push come to shove i will have to embrace bj - hindi, heeng and all! .......... laholaywala quwat !
#45 Posted by hamidm2 on October 21, 2006 5:24:41 am
Re: # 41
bj,
........ i hear you and feel your pain, but hindi still sounds really bad - it conjurs up images of half naked men with upside down swastikas on their foreheads chasing women with big red dots on their foreheads ..... you will have to pardon me because unlike manto, who is a learned man, my knowledge of india is based entirely on iindiana jones and the temple of doom ... ...... honestly speaking, most pakis really don`t care what ya`ll do on the wrong side of the border as long as you give up kashmir and stay down-wind ...........
bj,
........ i hear you and feel your pain, but hindi still sounds really bad - it conjurs up images of half naked men with upside down swastikas on their foreheads chasing women with big red dots on their foreheads ..... you will have to pardon me because unlike manto, who is a learned man, my knowledge of india is based entirely on iindiana jones and the temple of doom ... ...... honestly speaking, most pakis really don`t care what ya`ll do on the wrong side of the border as long as you give up kashmir and stay down-wind ...........
#44 Posted by echoboom on October 21, 2006 5:17:41 am
typos fixed:#43
Now let`s just see what this ``Z` and ``J`` has done to a fine (but not very refined) piece of Poetry.
GuZar: means passing.........GuJar means a milkman or a cow-herder
Ghubaar: means dust-cloud.........Gubar...can be read as Gobar: cow-dung.
Now let`s just see what this ``Z` and ``J`` has done to a fine (but not very refined) piece of Poetry.
GuZar: means passing.........GuJar means a milkman or a cow-herder
Ghubaar: means dust-cloud.........Gubar...can be read as Gobar: cow-dung.
#43 Posted by echoboom on October 21, 2006 5:13:53 am
Karwan gujar gaya, gubar dekhte rahey .
well not exactly, but before this Karwan disappears from view let me halt it a for a while.
hamidm2 is so right about the `Z` and ``J``. How it butchers the language..and it does not matter whether it is Urdu in dhoti or Hindi in Sherwani..it is an Indian ( as in Bharati) that gets murdered!
So those with the 1000 year khujli in their bums better not invoke the wrath of those from across the hindu Kush.
Now lt`s just see what this ``Z` and ``J`` has done to a fine (but not very refined) piece of Poetry.
GuZar: means passing.........GuJar means a milkman or a cow-herder
Ghaar: means dust-cloud.........Gubar...can be read as Gobar: cow-dung.
Now for the one who hears this poem from the Urdu-cahllenged, this is how he will understand and appreciates this an otherwise moving geet.
The herd of Cattle has passed, and all we kept looking at was the cowdung (it left in its wake).
The movie was made by the NFDC--Film Dev. Corp.) for a specific purpose. It was a very good, but not very subtle, attempt at quelling the student violent protests & Street-activism
``taught`` by Gandhi but was not very palatable to the then erstwhile Independented India.
This partcular ``song`` was inducted into the movie, and sometimes it seems that Neeraj was
retained so that just this song be included in the movie..maybe some bureaucrat was so
enamoured by it.
But it seems like it has been force-fed into the movie. A `situation` created for it. There was no need for this very morbid and depressing song in the movie . It created a very awkward
or rather freakish sight of Gandhi on horseback.....or a Ghaznavi in a lungi.
P.S: bj..stay away from aesthetic subjects; stick to counting money.
well not exactly, but before this Karwan disappears from view let me halt it a for a while.
hamidm2 is so right about the `Z` and ``J``. How it butchers the language..and it does not matter whether it is Urdu in dhoti or Hindi in Sherwani..it is an Indian ( as in Bharati) that gets murdered!
So those with the 1000 year khujli in their bums better not invoke the wrath of those from across the hindu Kush.
Now lt`s just see what this ``Z` and ``J`` has done to a fine (but not very refined) piece of Poetry.
GuZar: means passing.........GuJar means a milkman or a cow-herder
Ghaar: means dust-cloud.........Gubar...can be read as Gobar: cow-dung.
Now for the one who hears this poem from the Urdu-cahllenged, this is how he will understand and appreciates this an otherwise moving geet.
The herd of Cattle has passed, and all we kept looking at was the cowdung (it left in its wake).
The movie was made by the NFDC--Film Dev. Corp.) for a specific purpose. It was a very good, but not very subtle, attempt at quelling the student violent protests & Street-activism
``taught`` by Gandhi but was not very palatable to the then erstwhile Independented India.
This partcular ``song`` was inducted into the movie, and sometimes it seems that Neeraj was
retained so that just this song be included in the movie..maybe some bureaucrat was so
enamoured by it.
But it seems like it has been force-fed into the movie. A `situation` created for it. There was no need for this very morbid and depressing song in the movie . It created a very awkward
or rather freakish sight of Gandhi on horseback.....or a Ghaznavi in a lungi.
P.S: bj..stay away from aesthetic subjects; stick to counting money.
#42 Posted by harimau on October 21, 2006 5:09:12 am
So, there was this poetry contest and the two finalists were an English major from Duke University and some cowboy from Texas A&M. The participants had to write a short poem within 5 minutes after being given a word. The word was `Timbuctoo`.
The Duke student got up after about 4 minutes and said:
Slowly the dusty caravan rides
Into the dusk two by two
Destination Timbuctoo
and sat down. There was huge applause from the partisan audience who just couldn`t see how this could be topped by the redneck from Texas.
The A&M guy got up almost immediately and said:
Tim and I a-huntin` went
Met three whores in a pop-up tent
They were three, we were two
So I buck one, Tim buck two.
PS. BJ, the moral of the story is: Never write anything about Timbuctoo, the desert or caravans, let alone a poem!
The Duke student got up after about 4 minutes and said:
Slowly the dusty caravan rides
Into the dusk two by two
Destination Timbuctoo
and sat down. There was huge applause from the partisan audience who just couldn`t see how this could be topped by the redneck from Texas.
The A&M guy got up almost immediately and said:
Tim and I a-huntin` went
Met three whores in a pop-up tent
They were three, we were two
So I buck one, Tim buck two.
PS. BJ, the moral of the story is: Never write anything about Timbuctoo, the desert or caravans, let alone a poem!
#41 Posted by bjkumar on October 21, 2006 3:40:32 am
#35 by hamidm2
[......... i am told by my indian friends that nobody understands the television hindi news that is being forced on them by hindoo revivalists and revisionists - is it true? .......... why are they pushing this dead language?]
Dear sir, languages do not live or die, people do! And people speak what they speak. They take their liberties with the languages and they take words from all around them – words they need to express what they need to express.
Where have you been, sir?!! The times of authorities dictating what the citizens ought to speak – by controlling their media – are long past! Nobody depends on a single source for news any more and competition dictates that the news channels speak to the people in words that they understand. And the channels need not even be located in the country where they get watched.
Those controlling times are gone, gone, gone!
Gone with the wind!
Or at least gone with the windbags – the example of your esteemed grandpa comes to mind, of course!
Please rest assured. We sir, are from the land of the “koyal” or cuckoos – no matter how often you all – the lost ones on the wrong side of the border – try to pass yourselves off as inhabitants of the land of the bulbul – that bird shall forever stay a rare bird in the subcontinent – unless of the caged variety! Nature saw to that and there is not a single thing that you can do about it!
Pakistani attempts to deny the Sanskrit origins of Urdu by using a different, foreign script and by consciously excluding the local words and trying to adapt by force many other words from their native origin to an artificial Persian format are doomed to fail!
It is like denying your very own genes!
It is like a beautiful woman who is trying to pass herself off as a bearded ruffian by dressing up in ruffian-like clothes and carefully switching to the language of the gutter!
When it comes to having sex, however, such a woman has no alternative except to have it the “old-fashioned” way – the way nature intended her to! No amount of being “gay” and pretending to be a stud will work!
It never has and it never shall!
Let there be sex!
#40 Posted by bjkumar on October 21, 2006 2:59:45 am
#35 Hamidm2 sahib
[....all poetry is a little gay...]
Be careful, you can be easily become the focus of the combined wrath of the poets of the world.
Which can be highly devastating.
Especially if combined with the wrath of the Rosie O Donnels of the world.
#39 Posted by mohar11 on October 21, 2006 12:14:31 am
Re: # 37
Yes - but, as far as we know he was just milking the goat... not f***** it.... I mean - he had his pretty nieces for that anyway... right?.... May be BJ can confirm... :)
Yes - but, as far as we know he was just milking the goat... not f***** it.... I mean - he had his pretty nieces for that anyway... right?.... May be BJ can confirm... :)
#38 Posted by mohar11 on October 21, 2006 12:09:03 am
So pakis - you have been wasting yourselves far too long on self-defeating fantasies: 1 muslim = 10 hinood, islam is better than hinud, urdu is better than hindi, jinnah is better than gandhi, f**** a goat is a good ``right of passage``....
I mean get over it already, OK?... grow up and learn something from the hanoods... they are better than you in everything [well, except in circket :)].... I mean - how long are you going to keep your collective heads up your collective ***es?
I mean get over it already, OK?... grow up and learn something from the hanoods... they are better than you in everything [well, except in circket :)].... I mean - how long are you going to keep your collective heads up your collective ***es?
#37 Posted by hamidm2 on October 21, 2006 12:01:27 am
Re: # 36
mohar,
......... i empathize with your sentiments, but at the same time i must point out that the only person i know who had a pet goat was gandhi ji .........
mohar,
......... i empathize with your sentiments, but at the same time i must point out that the only person i know who had a pet goat was gandhi ji .........
#36 Posted by mohar11 on October 20, 2006 11:49:35 pm
hamidm
[...urdu is like milk, farsi is like milk and sugar, pushto is like a donkey`s fart ...]
So which one do you speak to your pet-goat to seduce her?...urdu, the milk or pasto, the fart?.....I mean if you folks f*** a goat as ``right of passage`` - should it even matter what your ``culture`` is and language you use? :)
Any case - hindi, urdu, chinese - who cares... only language that matters is English... so you old coots should save your breaths [ and farts ] and stop killing each other over this silly old tired argument...
Tata just took over the Brit steel plant for cool 9 billion dollars... the white man is crying silly ever since Mittal took over Arcelor... First their language, next their jobs, now their plants - the hanoods are all over...
And here we have a paki goat-f***** is sitting on his hunch and pontificating on urdu and pasto... that too using his grandpa`s ``immortal`` words.... :))) I mean - how silly can you get?
[...urdu is like milk, farsi is like milk and sugar, pushto is like a donkey`s fart ...]
So which one do you speak to your pet-goat to seduce her?...urdu, the milk or pasto, the fart?.....I mean if you folks f*** a goat as ``right of passage`` - should it even matter what your ``culture`` is and language you use? :)
Any case - hindi, urdu, chinese - who cares... only language that matters is English... so you old coots should save your breaths [ and farts ] and stop killing each other over this silly old tired argument...
Tata just took over the Brit steel plant for cool 9 billion dollars... the white man is crying silly ever since Mittal took over Arcelor... First their language, next their jobs, now their plants - the hanoods are all over...
And here we have a paki goat-f***** is sitting on his hunch and pontificating on urdu and pasto... that too using his grandpa`s ``immortal`` words.... :))) I mean - how silly can you get?
#35 Posted by hamidm2 on October 20, 2006 11:45:42 pm
bj,
......... i am told by my indian friends that nobody understands the television hindi news that is being forced on them by hindoo revivalists and revisionists - is it true ? .......... why are they pushing this dead language ?
...... in any case, i agree with krishna that ghazals ``evolved as a means of romancing little boys for buggering`` ......... all poetry is a little gay
#34 Posted by krishna_abcd on October 20, 2006 10:08:41 pm
#27 by hamidm2
[...... sorry, i didn`t know there was an actual language called hindi - i always thought it was a street version of urdu spoken by paan-walas, homeless biharis, and other riff-raff ........
....... in any case the languages of the subcontinent (with the exception) of urdu are pretty crude ......... as my grandpa used to say :`` urdul sheer ast, farsi sheero o` shakar ast, pukhto goz e khar ast`` (urdu is like milk, farsi is like milk and sugar, pushto is like a donkey`s fart ) .......... i wonder what he would have said about hindi`s obvious flatulence problem ...........]
Has it ever occured to you that your grandpa might have been a crude human being?
Urdu is descended from Sanskrit, with a whole lot of Persian and Arabic words thrown in, and written in the Camel-dung script. Like if you took English and substituted many words with Persian and Arabic, and wrote it using the Camel-jockey script.
It is a bastardized language. And if it sounds cultured to you - it figures - many of you guys being descended from unknown fathers in many cases (it is a historically true fact, by the way).
And here is another revelation - Persians and Pakistanis are considered uncultured in the section of Indian society I come from. Persians - their contribution to world cuisine has been boiled rice and half-burnt tomatoes. And their biggest contribution to literature has been the Ghazals - which evolved as a means of romancing little boys for buggering.
And you Pakis are so bloody effed up that their history starts with the arrival of Muhammad Ghori. Afghanistanis, NWFP wild tribals etc. are not even being considered here.
To a fisherman`s wife, the fishing net smells heavenly. If Hindi sounds so uncultured to you, now you know why.
[...... sorry, i didn`t know there was an actual language called hindi - i always thought it was a street version of urdu spoken by paan-walas, homeless biharis, and other riff-raff ........
....... in any case the languages of the subcontinent (with the exception) of urdu are pretty crude ......... as my grandpa used to say :`` urdul sheer ast, farsi sheero o` shakar ast, pukhto goz e khar ast`` (urdu is like milk, farsi is like milk and sugar, pushto is like a donkey`s fart ) .......... i wonder what he would have said about hindi`s obvious flatulence problem ...........]
Has it ever occured to you that your grandpa might have been a crude human being?
Urdu is descended from Sanskrit, with a whole lot of Persian and Arabic words thrown in, and written in the Camel-dung script. Like if you took English and substituted many words with Persian and Arabic, and wrote it using the Camel-jockey script.
It is a bastardized language. And if it sounds cultured to you - it figures - many of you guys being descended from unknown fathers in many cases (it is a historically true fact, by the way).
And here is another revelation - Persians and Pakistanis are considered uncultured in the section of Indian society I come from. Persians - their contribution to world cuisine has been boiled rice and half-burnt tomatoes. And their biggest contribution to literature has been the Ghazals - which evolved as a means of romancing little boys for buggering.
And you Pakis are so bloody effed up that their history starts with the arrival of Muhammad Ghori. Afghanistanis, NWFP wild tribals etc. are not even being considered here.
To a fisherman`s wife, the fishing net smells heavenly. If Hindi sounds so uncultured to you, now you know why.
#33 Posted by bjkumar on October 20, 2006 9:11:40 pm
#28 Aik Thought
Aik Thought sahib, thanks for the link to the song audio. I checked it and it works well on my computer!
#32 Posted by bjkumar on October 20, 2006 9:08:36 pm
#29 Nasah
My dear Nasah sahib, it is a distinct pleasure and honor to welcome you to this little board of mine.
I hope you enjoyed the translation – even though clearly it is impossible for ANY translation to replicate the effect that the original always has on anybody who has been fortunate enough to savor it – especially the way the late Mr. Rafi sang it.
I do not look at filmi songs in a derogatory manner. Not at all!
In many ways, people in the show biz are like janitors. They have to really work hard and they have to muster all their abilities, creative and mundane, to prove themselves on a regular basis to their employers – the vast masses who can boo them just as easily as they can raise them sky high. For every superstar out there – there are multitudes of little stars who never made it in spite of very hard work – because it gets crowded very quickly in that competitive environment.
That aside, Hindi film songs are an underappreciated commodity – as far as their impact in molding a common Indian identity is concerned. By and large the “high brow” community of writers, poets, and artists looks down on it while conveniently forgetting that the reasons such songs are commercially successful is because they can connect with the common man – where all the “high brow” stuff fails!
Hindi movie songs have helped develop a national bonding which would have been impossible to achieve otherwise. Thanks to the beautiful lyrics of many Hindi/Urdu writers, a vast number of Indians have been able to express their innermost thoughts in simple language. Even more, they have been able to identify with characters who sing (or lip-synch) those songs – and feel what such characters are supposed to have felt – a vicarious thrill which makes happy people of those who have otherwise little to feel happy about.
Hindi movie songs have brought an understanding of the Hindi language all over India in a way no regulation could ever match in success! It has helped bridge the North-South divide like nothing else could!
And sometimes, they do suggest to people new ideas which could make things better for everybody.
I think that if Pakistani men were to start treating their women with even one percent of the respect that the movie song subjects shower on their lady objects – Pakistan would become an instantaneously enlightened nation!
(Note: I say many things many times – sometimes in sarcasm, but mostly in the heat of the moment. Trying to “pin me down” based on such words is an exercise in futility – one would be going all over the place without getting any where.)
#31 Posted by bjkumar on October 20, 2006 8:33:31 pm
#27 Hamidm2 sahib (add-on)
[…urdu sheer ast, farsi sheero o` shakar ast,…]
Interesting quote! Let me draw your kind attention to another similar-sounding adage you may have heard:
“Aghar fir-daus bar-ru-e jameen-ast, wa hameen-ast, wa hameen-ast, wa hameen-ast!”
Would you care to guess where that firdaus-land is located?
Hint: somewhere not too far OUTSIDE the boundaries of the land of the Pure!
#30 Posted by bjkumar on October 20, 2006 8:26:59 pm
#27 Hamidm2 sahib
A single “j” seems to work for us – if there were a separate letter “jh” needed we would have created it as a legitimate letter in our alphabet. Obviously, it never came to that and the country and the people and the language continue to survive fine – don’t be too shocked now (and you don’t need to go running to that mai-baap Congressman Towns to ask him to slip into Congressional Records his letter of protest on India’s high-handedness in keeping Pakistani letters out of its Hindi alphabet)!
Your automatic assumption that this was an Urdu song in spite of what information was provided on the poet Neeraj using pure Hindi in his songs – that assumption of yours speaks volumes regarding the thought process of many Pakistanis!
“Because Mohammed Rafi sang it – of course, it must be an Urdu song! His name is Muslim – how could it be otherwise?”
“There are SO many words in that song which I understand – heck, I understand the whole song WITHOUT needing a translation. So, of COURSE, it is an Urdu song! How else could I have understood it?!!!”
Like many Pakistanis, you get hopelessly stuck in penetrating the superficial! You see the superficial and miss out what lies underneath.
Like many Pakistanis, you fail to see the commonality – because seeing this obvious commonality will negate the whole point of your existence as a separate country – lousy existence that it may be – and it will make your whole nation and its legions of crooks who have called themselves its leaders look very foolish for their crimes and misdeeds of the last sixty years!!
In my personal opinion, the differences between Hindi and Urdu were created artificially by individuals for achieving narrow and selfish political objectives and for dividing people! Harping on those superficial differences keeps the illusion alive in the minds of some brown-skinned desis that actually they are less brown than desis – having “originated” elsewhere!
Unfortunately for people like you, there is no possible way to physically transport Pakistan to Saudi Arabia – and in any case, most Saudi Arabians consider Pakistanis as having “inferior” genes! That leaves you like a Trishanku, hanging in between – neither here, nor there!
Languages evolve over time – those which refuse to do so will die out over time. The future of Urdu, like the future of Pakistan – lies in emulating what the Indians have been doing – not what the Arabs have been doing!
So try to be more of what you ARE – not what the Arabs were!
Things have moved along since the days of your grandpa – your grandpa who in all likelihood is a member of the generation of criminals who brought the subcontinent to its present sorry state. I see no legitimate reason for pride in such a crappy outcome – it is like somebody celebrating the “accomplishments” of Jack-the ripper!
Things have MOVED on over the last sixty years! You may have to revisit some of your yardsticks!
#29 Posted by nasah on October 20, 2006 8:03:04 pm
my dear bjks -- after this column (translated filmi poem) of yours you are not going to complain about other`s columns -- are you?.....:)
#28 Posted by AikThought on October 20, 2006 1:02:28 pm
http://song2play.com/m/mohd_rafi_suman_kalyanpur_minoo_purushottam_asha_bhosle_mukesh_manna_dey-13770/nai_umar_ki_nai_fasal-32994/swapna_jhare_phool_se-422737.html
#27 Posted by hamidm2 on October 20, 2006 12:49:15 pm
Re: # 26
bj,
...... sorry, i didn`t know there was an actual language called hindi - i always thought it was a street version of urdu spoken by paan-walas, homeless biharis, and other riff-raff ........
....... in any case the languages of the subcontinent (with the exception) of urdu are pretty crude ......... as my grandpa used to say :`` urdul sheer ast, farsi sheero o` shakar ast, pukhto goz e khar ast`` (urdu is like milk, farsi is like milk and sugar, pushto is like a donkey`s fart ) .......... i wonder what he would have said about hindi`s obvious flatulence problem ...........
bj,
...... sorry, i didn`t know there was an actual language called hindi - i always thought it was a street version of urdu spoken by paan-walas, homeless biharis, and other riff-raff ........
....... in any case the languages of the subcontinent (with the exception) of urdu are pretty crude ......... as my grandpa used to say :`` urdul sheer ast, farsi sheero o` shakar ast, pukhto goz e khar ast`` (urdu is like milk, farsi is like milk and sugar, pushto is like a donkey`s fart ) .......... i wonder what he would have said about hindi`s obvious flatulence problem ...........
#26 Posted by bjkumar on October 20, 2006 12:14:17 pm
#23 Hamidm2
[as long as the horrible hindoos refuze to accept the letter `z` and do not seize and dezist from butchering the urdu language]
Let all the Pakistanis get this one thing straight!
1) This here is a HINDI song.
2) This here is a HINDI reader/speaker.
3) And in this here the HINDI language, there is one and only one “j” and you should feel free to call it a “z” if that floats your otherwise sinking boat!
NOW…..
Let all the Pakistani interactors repeat after me.
1) All religions were NOT created as a second-hand emulation wannabes of the sirkaari religion of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan!
2) All languages were NOT created in a wannabe-mode of the Urdu language.
3) The way things work in world does not stop at the small subset population of things located within the tip of the VERY Pakistani noses of VERY Pakistani fat-cats of those VERY large dimensions and that VERY light weight gas called H2.
And keep repeating till you get it!
There, don`t you all feel a lot better now!
#25 Posted by echoboom on October 20, 2006 5:47:20 am
#24:
Sorry wrong board!
belongs to ``Innocence`` board.
Sorry wrong board!
belongs to ``Innocence`` board.
#24 Posted by echoboom on October 20, 2006 5:45:30 am
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#23 Posted by hamidm2 on October 20, 2006 4:48:26 am
i could not get past the title of this lil ditty ..... what the heck is `gujar` ........... as far as i know a gujar is a person who herds cows and sheep - like the chaudharis of gujarat who are herding the people of pakistan ..........
........ as long as the horrible hindoos refuze to accept the letter `z` and do not seize and dezist from butchering the urdu language, i refuze to read this poem - it is zibberish !
karwan guzar gaya !......... guzarnay do, hamari kali bala se !
#22 Posted by bjkumar on October 20, 2006 4:32:32 am
#19 Ballukhan
[BJ you did not tell others about the context of the picturization of the song]
Yaar, you are absolutely right. I did not.
But don’t be mad. I had no ulterior motives behind holding back that piece of information from the chowk masses of humanity!
I simply did not know!
I have liked this song from childhood. It was a favorite song of my dad. I have not seen the movie Nai Umar Ki Nai Fasal (1965), but will try to dig up information if I can.
#21 Posted by bjkumar on October 20, 2006 4:25:17 am
#18 Big Shoe
Thanks, yaar!
I have read somewhere that when the late Rafi sahib sang the song for the movie, he was a bit indisposed but being the person that he was, he kept going – and because of its considerable length, it took its toll and by the time he finished it, he had blood coming out of his mouth!
He held nothing back! He sang it from his heart and he gave it his toil and he gave it his blood!
And it came out the way it came out!
#20 Posted by bjkumar on October 20, 2006 4:08:28 am
#17 Ballukhan
[It is painful......as if some daku or looter is kidnapping away your loved one...........reminds one of the dark ages ..............]
Ama yaar Ballu, I hope you are referring to the sad feelings conveyed by the original song and not to my translation – and certainly not to your experience of reading that translation!
Perhaps not!
But then – then why do I get this uneasy, queasy feeling in my tummy?!!!
Tell me Ballu, you were NOT taking a jibe at this poor trivial “translator” – cutting him into even smaller pieces!
Humiliating him more and more – implying tha








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