Hijacking of Islam

Urstruly (#191),

The issue is no longer about “last mosque” hadith. That was over a year ago. Your continued silence had led to a different issue altogether.

The issue is that how can you quote a hadith without even reading it. And when you realize it contradicts your view, why do you drop the issue.

- What does this say about your intelligence?
- More importantly, what does this say about your integrity?

There are many examples where you resort to deception and deceit. Once you explain this, we can move forward to killing apostates. Deal?

It is not the act, but its denial that is more revealing at times.

Urstruly:198

DM a mushrik?
He is trying to convince anyone who would listen, but foremostly himself, that he is a Mulhid (atheist).

But the keen interest he shows in religion, betrays him . The blanket would just not let go.
Methinks he is a Brahmu-Samaj type monotheist--only he refuses to concede.

DM:you wrote in 195.
``
the Prophet and the Quran made many harsh statements about the religious beliefs of other people, for example, polytheism and idol-worship and I would like to think that the Prophet did not hate the people -the Quraish- who held those beliefs. ``


This needs clarification:
The prophet was addressing his own people who had gone astray. Those people, followers of Inbrahim, Moosa, & Eesa , were people of the book--all of them.

Muslims of Indo-Pak origin are often chastised for adopting bad non-muslim customs of the land. In fact a lot of the ``traditions`` came as baggage with those who converted, and this
is one of the strong ,& in my opinioncorrect ,arguments the Wahabbis make about muslims acquiring un-Islamic practices & thus becoming mushriks of yore.

DM

Thank you; you have become my favorite Mushrik from now on.

By now you must have realized that “Mard-e-naadan par kalam-e-narm-o-nazuk be-asar;” and that is the reason I gave up on sattar.

DM,

... furthermore ... significance of “last prophet” or “last mosque” is secondary issue here. I am not trying to prove Ahmadi views to be correct. Primarily I was showing that our learned man, Urstruly, does not even bother to read one line … one line … as he bases his views on a hadith. But he is not alone in such foolishness. And this is a scary thought. Read on ...

Same hadith was quoted by Naqshbandi. When asked the meaning of “last mosque”, he too became silent. But this is not the end of it.

Another mullah who used to frequent Chowk (nick was Atif2, if I am not mistaken) quoted the same hadith!! I asked him the meaning of “last mosque” and he too dropped the issue.

Do you see a pattern? These fanatics fail to read and understand one line, but are willing to kill and plunder over ideological differences. Do you see how their minds work? Learned men? Give me a break …

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I noticed Urstruly is now trying to explain this hadith. I can’t help wonder what he is trying to prove now ... after more than a year of my repeated prodding.

Perhaps it is the sudden spot light on the issue that is making him uncomfortable. Perhaps his fast is getting to him and he is feeling nausiated. Perhaps the jummah khutba was a bit too much for him to handle. All of a sudden his ego is at again ... but I can`t explain where the f&*K has has been for the past year or so ...

Such men have a dangerous lack of ability to think and to learn, combined with a deep-rooted ideological hatred for others. Learned men? Who are we kidding …? These are fragile minds, which are breeding grounds for hatred and fanaticism. It’s too bad if you can’t tell the difference.

DM (#195):

No apology needed. And I am not asking that you hate Urstruly/zeemax/Naqsh, the persons. But let’s not validate or accept their deceptive, hateful arguments in favor of mindless violence as “tactics of a skilled debater” or their hateful ideologies as “learned men who circumscribe their compassion to people of their own faith”. That’s utter gibberish and a sensible person like you should know better.

Sahib, where do you think we got blasphemy laws in Pakistan? Or anti-ahmadiyya legislation which makes it a crime for an Ahmadi to practice Islam? How do you explain Gujrat riots? Who incites mobs to attack Ahmadi mosques on Friday afternoons? And then there are suicide bombers and shia-sunni riots. How does this cycle of violence sustain itself? How do humans sustain hatred at such destructive levels?

Urstruly advocates killing blasphemers and apostates, and skates around the issue. However, you see it as an acceptable debating skill. Zeemax is telling people that Ahamdis are British agents who are working against Muslims and Pakistan. Does this explain the Friday afternoon mob attacking an Ahmadi mosque? When Naqshbandi posts absolute filth and lies against Mirza Sahib, and refuses to discuss them or take them back, don’t you think this perpetuates the cycle of hatred, which leads to violence?

Yes, ANY ideology may be derived from ANY document. So where does it lead us? Should we accept hatred and violence as a valid ideology? One may use US constitution to wreak absolute havoc across the globe. Should that be alright too? At what level does one become responsible for his actions and misery he creates?

The ummah that spreads hateful propaganda against Ahmadis, are the same people who complain that neo-cons manipulated intelligence on Iraq. Do you see the hypocrisy? At what point should we demand truth and integrity from others? At what point do we owe truth and integrity to others? Or should we continue to accept, as well as offer, deception and hate mongering as “debating skills” and “misplaced compassion”?

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Fanaticism is like a pyramid. There is a relatively small number of suicide bombers at the top. These in turn need support from the next lower level of lesser fanatics, who are more spread out. This second level needs even lesser, more widely spread out support from the next lower level. And so on and so forth.

At the bottom of the pyramid we have hundreds of millions of people who do not necessarily support suicide bombings, but are indifferent enough to lend support to the next higher level of the pyramid. Work upwards, layer by layer, and you’ll see how the top of this pyramid sustains itself.

++++++++++++++++++

OK, so Urstruly said “live and let live”. Do you think Hitler shouted “I’ll kill the Jews” as he campaigned? KKK members claim think they are serving the cause of mankind. So what??? Read on for an answer …

Ask Urstruly how his mantra of “live and let live” translates into locking up Ahmadis for practicing Islam. Anyone can say anything. But a person’s comments should be viewed in a larger context of his ideas.

Yes, he told a touching story about Dr. Salam. I am glad you remember. What you do NOT remember is that then I asked him … ”what if Salam was a Muslim, who later decided to leave Islam. Should this son of our nation be killed for apostasy?” There was no answer from Urstruly. Too bad, since the absence of answer was perhaps the worst answer he could give. His position was clear.

So let me ask you now… what do you think “live and let live” means? Furthermore, what does it mean when a person like Urstruly utters such lines? Should we believe him? You seem to believe him. Does the bottom of the pyramid feel a little closer to home now?

Yes, he has not directly asked that an Ahmadi be killed. But he has made claims along the lines that Ahmadis themselves are the prime cause of violence against them. This is an attempt to validate violent persecution of Ahmadis. Same is the case with suggesting that Ahamdi views cannot coexist with mainstream Islamic views. Although he cannot explain “why”. He has never, to my knowledge, condemned violence against Ahmadis, suggesting at times that Ahmadis are getting what they deserve. Furthermore, he has attempted to associate filth with Mirza Sahib’s writings, but when proven wrong, did not have the decency to take back the filth he wrote. I asked him repeatedly about his source of information, but he refuses to give an answer. He has posted absolutely incorrect information against Ahamdis, which when shown to be incorrect, he refuses to retract. Do you see a pattern? Is this a compassionate, learned man … or a hate-monger who hides behind facades and trickery?

More later ...

Sattar2 (various posts)

Itnee si baat thee jisse afsaana kar diya.....

First of all, let me offer a ``Papal`` apology. I am sorry that what I thought was an innocuous remark about someone has caused so much anguish to you. But I will go ``beyond the Pope`` and offer an elaboration for my earlier remark.

You have been at chowk long enough to perhaps know that I have no truck or sympathy for the political ideology espoused by Urstruly and he surely knows that. But my reading of the Quran and hadith tells me that that ideology can easily be derived from those sources if it is not indeed quite consistent with it (I know that many moderate muslims think otherwise). So, I cannot in all honesty condemn his interpretation of his religion which is not very different from my own.

More to the point, you would also perhaps know that I make a clear distinction between the ideology and the ideologue; one can hate one without the other. One could, for example, hate communism or capitalism without hating communists or capitalists, or even Marx or Adam Smith; one could hate the two nation theory (fully supported by Ahmedis btw) without hating Pakistanis or even Jinnah or Mohammad Zafarullah. Come to think of it, even the Prophet and the Quran made many harsh statements about the religious beliefs of other people, for example, polytheism and idol-worship and I would like to think that the Prophet did not hate the people -the Quraish- who held those beliefs.

Now, to move from the general to the particular. It is true that Urstruly is quite hostile to the idea of Ahmedis (whom he calls Qadianis) calling themselves Muslims. But as far as I know (I haven`t read all his posts/articles), he has never called for attacking them; even on this board he has asked ``to live and let live``. On the other hand, I do recall his telling the most poignant and moving personal accounts from the life of Professor Abdus Salam, perhaps the most celebrated Ahmedi. I also know of several moderate chowkies who show the least amount of sensitivity while discussing individuals - both chowkies and non-chowkies.

Thanks for translating Mosque as the place where Muslims pray; however, my remark was in relation to the particular hadith where the Prophet refers to ``his last mosque``. I still do not understand the significance of that term.

As for dar-ul-harb/islam, the islamic literature by both muslims and non-muslims is replete with these terms but you are probably right that they do not find any mention in the quran.

And finally, what is your asking price for your prime real estate property in Baghdad? :)
Remember, you would be fabulously rich today if you had bought prime real estate in Sarajevo at the time of the civil war there or even in Amritsar during the peak of militancy there.

Re: various by ranjit

Ranjit,

I would have expected you to acknowledge my last post.

At the very least, if you don`t have anything to say, I would hope you would stop using the same line of argument again here at Chowk.

Re: #192 and 191

These two posts provide a compelling example of what I have been saying all along - that there is no solution - Islam has to go. The faithful will try a million excuses for the million despicable acts of Muhammad, and for the million outragous and inhuman statements in the Quran. But the reality is that, those statements have an impact - regardless of the Mullahs, these statements incite people to hate and violence. Not everybody is willing to twist things about and rationalize and try to cast these statements in a benign light.

If a population makes Mein Kampf their guiding light in life, a percent of the population will refuse to skate over the unconscionable parts and actually act on the ideas contained therein.

The day will surely come when Islam ceases to exist. For the alternative is too horrible to contemplate.

Re: # 177

sattar,

........ for many years whenever i went to ny city, my friend would take me to shaheen restaurant in jackson heights - in his (and my) opinion it had the best darn food in the area......... last year when i was there we went to some place called kebob king - i asked him what happened to shaheen ...... ``people found out that it was owned by ahmedis and stopped going there - they had to shut it down`` ............

Re: # 176 sattar

I have absolutely no problem explaining the Hadith that says ``I am the last Prophet and my mosque is the last of mosques``, to you, but you must realize the futility of your own argument first. In fact, by this demand you are asking me to validate your religion using a legal instrument (the said hadith), whose very nature, in your opinion is illegitimate. In other words you want your religion validated by the hadith but you don`t believe that hadiths are valid or true in the first place. Therefore, I do not see a value-add in carrying out this debate with you.

As far as the said hadith is concerned, it still invalidates the false prophethood of mirza sahib. In the interest of general public let me quote the text of Hadith and the refernece it came from.

``The Holy Prophet (PBUH) observed: ``I am the last in line of the prophets of God and my Masjid is the last Masjid (referring the holy Masjid of the Prophet).``

Reference: (Compendium of Ahadith by) Muslim
Book: Kitab-ul-Hajj (the book of Pilgrimage)
Chapter: Fadl-us-Salat bi Masjidi Mecca wal Medina (The benefits of offering prayers in the Mosques of Mecca and Medina)

By the way, did Mr. Baig ever show up to defend his article, or even his basic understanding of Islam?

re: teshah # 178

If you give people the right to play God, they will take that right and run with it. To expect them to respect humanity is a expecting too much.

#187 by echoboom on October 13, 2006 6:19am PT


yeah it is OK to accept it; & then trash it.


So if the mohd dude accepts the prize and keeps it, he`s a secularoon..

and if he trashes it, he`s 100% echoboom certified allah`s homies..

Take the Nobel challenge?

#185 by arjun2 on October 13, 2006 6:11am PT

yeah it is OK to accept it; & then trash it. Nobel does NOT make a person important or respectable; it is the recipient who lends respectability to Nobel. Kissinger tainted & devalued it.

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Tagore wrote in his article, Robbery of the Soil, in 1922: “Civilisation today caters for a whole population of gluttons. This universal greed, which now infects us all, is the cause of every kind of meanness, of cruelty and of lies in politics, (WMD of Bush & Blair!) and commerce, and vitiates the whole human atmosphere. A civilisation, which has attained such an unnatural appetite, must, for its continuing existence, depend upon numberless victims”.
Rabindranath Tagore in a letter to Prof. Amiya Chakraborty on June 20, 1940 called the Western civilisation a “Savage Civilisation”.Tagore wrote, “Today’s commercially minded Europe has grown irresistible. But I can see its feet resting on the downward slope towards extinction”.

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Wrote after Accepting the Nobel!

So yeah it is OK to accept it; & then trash it. Nobel does NOT make a person important or respectable; it is the recipient who lends respectability to Nobel. Kissinger tainted & devalued it.

#179 by echoboom on October 12, 2006 7:25pm PT


the nation`s second-largest coffeehouse chain, said it would never sell pork or porn. It wouldn`t charge or receive interest, either.


Oh damn....Caribou is the first thing I think of when I need porn, ham or money to buy a house...What will I DO now!! I might just have to buy my playboy at my starbucks as I wait for my latte and my mortage application to be approved...

BTW: You can be as sure as the sky is blue that caribou pays interest...Is that ok with allah`s homies?

#184 by echoboom on October 13, 2006 4:49am PT

mullah boom: The Nobel prize is awarded by a secularoon country..Are you sure it`s ok for allah`s homies to accept it?