Pervez Musharraf Vs. George Orwell

Ranjit ..

I am afraid that is not true... about Jinnah.

Standing up for your community in face of Gandhian Hindu fascism does not make you a religious zealot..

#145 Okhla

Jesus Christ! One would think that this light-gas Hamidm2 hypocrite is some kind of damsel in distress, and all these chowk bucks are ready to defend her ``honor``!

I got news for you buddy - this damsel is absolutely, hopelessly badchalaan!

And as far as your estimation of my worth - who cares! I tell it like I see it. And at this moment, I feel like saying to you - Screw you! Screw you with the same screw as the great gaseous one!

Too bad the Paracha guy removed his ``middle-finger-up`` image, otherwise I would have made a suitable present to you!

In my personal opinion, Hamidm2 - like most Pakistanis on this site, is a lightweight hypocrite! He makes a good match with Manto!

Re: # 144

Respected BJ ,

Hamidm might be a lightweight hypocrite but then you would be a very very heavyweight hypocrite if the same standards were to be applied..

#140 hamidm
It appears you were never favorably disposed towards Gandhiji anyway so this is just an excuse to legitimize your dislike for the man.
As Orwell says, Gandhiji was unafraid to speak his mind - he was a product of his times in many ways (it would be spooky if he weren`t) but he also changed with the times. Gandhiji of 1908-1910 was different from Gandhiji of 1940.

#132 Alephnull
Ironically, in my copy of A Collection of Essays by George Orwell, the essay Reflections on Gandhi immediately follows Politics and the English Language!
BTW, the second essay is timeless and is worth reading.

This whole Gandhi-Jinnah argument is totally ridiculous. Jinnah was a Bhatia Rajput in caste. Only his gradfather converted to Islam, that too nominally. Both his grandfather and father believed in the ``ten avatars``. Gandhi was a Bania in caste. So both were upper caste Gujratis. In fact, Gandhi even wrote to Jinnah in 1944 - ``You are a Bhatia Rajput, I am a Bania. So much for the two nation theory``!!

How much different is one Gujju from the next, for crying out loud? One of them is a racist, casteist bigot. The other is a religous zealot. All BS!! They were both just plain old Gujju desis with the same biases and stupidities that most of us desis posess anyway. We all have racist mindset towards blacks or ``kallus`` as we call them. And we all have our own religious zealotry. So lets take a reality check here, guys.

Re: # 141

This is the same determinism argument that argues for low caste Hindus to remain low caste. Right?

Aisha Sarwari

manto mian,

......... can you please send these illuminating excerpts from gandhiji`s writings to congressman adolphus towns, al sharpton, nelson mandela, oprah winfrey and the reverend jesse jackson ?

........ thanks for educating us all and blowing the myth of this man which has been so diligently cultivated by hollywood - my knowledge of the mahatama is based solely on the film.......... what a bunch of morons ! ...........

.......... i am sure bj also thanks you for taking off this imposter`s dhoti even though it is rather painful ...........

Gandhi`s ``good intentions`` that one ought to look away from:


On What Gandhi wanted

The last week has been very busy. We have not had a moment`s leisure. We saw Mr. Theodore Morison of Aligarh and the well-known Mr. Stead of the Review of Reviews. Mr. Stead has boldly come out to give us all the help he can. He was therefore requested to write to the same Boer leaders that they should not consider Indians as being on the same level as Kaffirs

Indian Opinion, 15-12-1906, CWOMG Vol. 6, pg 183



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On What Gandhi wanted (3)

CLASSIFICATION OF ASIATICS WITH NATIVES

The cell was situated in the Native quarters and we were housed in one that was labeled `For Coloured Debtors`. It was this experience for which we were perhaps all unprepared. We had fondly imagined that we would have suitable quarters apart from the Natives. As it was, perhaps, just as well that we were classed with Natives. We would now be able to study the life of Native prisoners, their customs and manners. ...Degradation underlay the classing of Indians with natives. The Asiatic Act seemed to me to be the summit of our degradation. It did appear to me, as I think it would appear to any unprejudiced reader, that it would have been simple humanity if we were given special quarters. ...the Governor of the gaol tried to make us as comfortable as he could...But he was powerless to accommodate us beyond the horrible din and the yells of the Native prisoners throughout the day and partly at night also. Many of the native prisoners are only one degree removed from the animal and often created rows and fought amongst themselves in their cells.

Indian Opinion 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 120


Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is rather dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company

Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135



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On What Gandhi wanted (2)

INDIANS ON PAR WITH KAFFIRS

There, our garments were stamped with the letter `N`, which meant that we were being classed with the Natives. We were all prepared for hardships, but not quite for this experience. We could understand not being classed with the whites, but to be placed on the same level with the Natives seemed too much to put up with. I then felt that Indians had launched on passive resistance too soon. Here was further proof that the obnoxious law was intended to emasculate the Indians.

It was, however, as well that we were classified with the Natives. It was a welcome opportunity to study the treatment meted out to the Natives, their conditions [of life in the gaol] and their habits. ...We were given a separate ward because we were sentenced to simple imprisonment; otherwise we would have been in the same ward [with the Kaffirs]. Indians sentenced to hard labour are in fact kept with the Kaffirs.

Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is rather dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company

Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135



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On What Gandhi wanted (1)

I have, though, resolved in my mind on an agitation to ensure that Indian prisoners are not lodged with Kaffirs or others. When I arrived at the place, there were about 15 Indian prisoners. Except for three, all of them were satyagrahis. The three were charged with other offences. These prisoners were generally lodged with kaffirs. When I reached there, the chief warder issued an order that all of us should be lodged in a separate room. I observed with regret that some Indians were happy to sleep in the same room as the Kaffirs, the reason being that they hoped there for a secret supply of tobacco, etc. This is a matter of shame to us. We may entertain no aversion to the Kaffirs, but we cannot ignore the fact that there is no common ground between them and us in the daily affairs of life. Moreover, those who wish to sleep in the same room have ulterior motives for doing so.
Obviously, we ought to abandon such notions if we want to make progress.


Indian Opinion, 6-1-1909, CWOMG Vol. 9, pg 149



On What Gandhi wanted (9)



Gandhi`s disdain for black people continues:

It is one thing to register Natives who would not work, and whom it is very difficult to find out if they absent themselves, but it is another thing and most insulting to expect decent, hard-working, and respectable Indians, whose only fault is that they work too much, to have themselves registered

What is a Coolie, Indian Opinion 2151904, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 193

CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi


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On What Gandhi wanted (8)



The whole affair is as much a disgrace to the Indian community as it is to the British Empire. The British rulers take us to be so lowly and ignorant that they assume that, like the Kaffirs who can be pleased with toys and pins, we can also be fobbed off with trinkets

Indian Opinion, 29-2-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 105

CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi


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On What Gandhi wanted (7)


More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji...

His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of `coloured person` on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But British Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their position is this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them. The Boer Government insulted the Indians by classing them with the Kaffirs. Now there is no occasion to perpetuate a needless insult

Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178

Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG


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On What Gandhi wanted (6)


More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji...

His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of `coloured person` on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But British Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their position is this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them. The Boer Government insulted the Indians by classing them with the Kaffirs. Now there is no occasion to perpetuate a needless insult

Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178

Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG


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On What Gandhi wanted (5)



It reduces British Indians to a status lower than that of the aboriginal races of South Africa and the Coloured people.

Indian Opinion 15-9-1906, CWOMG Vol. 5, pg 419-423

On What Gandhi wanted (14)

On Minority White rule in South Africa:

We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in the long run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be disastrous to the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate themselves to relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration of the special class required in the Transvaal on a large scale will be practically impossible. It would be equally unfair to the Natives of the soil. It is all very well to say that they would not work, and that, if the Asiatics were introduced, that would be a stimulus to work; but human nature is the same everywhere, and once Asiatic labour is resorted to, there would not be a sustained effort to induce the Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after all, gentle compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the Natives and so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple mode of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an indefinite length of time. We have used the words `gentle compulsion` in the best sense of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind that a parent exercises over children


Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol. 3, pg 359-360

CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.

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On What Gandhi wanted (13)


On Minority White rule in South Africa:

We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in the long run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be disastrous to the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate themselves to relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration of the special class required in the Transvaal on a large scale will be practically impossible. It would be equally unfair to the Natives of the soil. It is all very well to say that they would not work, and that, if the Asiatics were introduced, that would be a stimulus to work; but human nature is the same everywhere, and once Asiatic labour is resorted to, there would not be a sustained effort to induce the Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after all, gentle compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the Natives and so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple mode of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an indefinite length of time. We have used the words `gentle compulsion` in the best sense of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind that a parent exercises over children


For Beej who is apparently BLIND: Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol. 3, pg 359-360

CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.


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On What Gandhi wanted (12)



What the British Indians pray for is very little. They ask for no political power. They admit the British race should be the dominant race in South Africa. All they ask for is freedom for those that are now settled and those that may be allowed to come in future to trade, to move about, and to hold landed property without any hindrance save the ordinary legal requirements

Petition to Natal Legislature, CWOMG, vol3, pg 330


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On What Gandhi wanted (11)


Ah... and they said Plessey Vs Ferguson was bad...

Well here is Gandhi with his theory of ``Separate and Unequal``

...The petition dwells upon ``the co-mingling of the Coloured and white races``. May we inform the members of the conference that, so far as the British Indians are concerned, such a thing is practically unknown? If there is one thing, which the Indian cherishes more than any other, it is the purity of type. Why bring such a question into the controversy at all?

The Transvaal Chambers and British Indians, Indian Opinion 24-12-03, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 89


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On What Gandhi wanted (10)

More on Gandhi`s theory of ``separate and unequal``

Why, of all places in Johannesburg, the Indian Location should be chosen for dumping down all the Kaffirs of the town passes my comprehension. ...Of course, under my suggestion, The Town Council must withdraw the Kaffirs from the Location. About this mixing of Kaffirs with the Indians, I must confess I feel most strongly

Indian Opinion, 10-4-04, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 130-131



Other Gandhian Statements that we need to consider...

`Sanghtan is a really sound movement. Every community is entitled, indeed bound to organize itself as a seperate entity` : Mahatma Gandhi

(Young India January 6th 1927)


A translation of a Gujrati essay he wrote in 1922 for Niya Jawan

(1) I believe that if Hindu Society has been able to stand it is because it is founded on the caste system.
(2) The seeds of swaraj are to be found in the caste system. Different castes are like different sections of miliary division. Each division is working for the good of the whole....

(3) A community which can create the caste system must be said to possess unique power of organization.

(4) Caste has a ready made means for spreading primary education. Each caste can take the responsibility for the education of the children of the caste. Caste has a political basis. It can work as an electorate for a representative body. Caste can perform judicial functions by electing persons to act as judges to decide disputes among members of the same caste. With castes it is easy to raise a defense force by requiring each caste to raise a brigade.

(5) I believe that interdining or intermarriage are not necessary for promoting national unity. That dining together creates friendship is contrary to experience. If this was true there would have been no war in Europe.... Taking food is as dirty an act as answering the call of nature. The only difference is that after answering call of nature we get peace while after eating food we get discomfort. Just as we perform the act of answering the call of nature in seclusion so also the act of taking food must also be done in seclusion.

(6) In India children of brothers do not intermarry. Do they cease to love because they do not intermarry? Among the Vaishnavas many women are so orthodox that they will not eat with members of the family nor will they drink water from a common water pot. Have they no love? The caste system cannot be said to be bad because it does not allow interdining or intermarriage between different castes.

(7) Caste is another name for control. Caste puts a limit on enjoyment. Caste does not allow a person to transgress caste limits in pursuit of his enjoyment. That is the meaning of such caste restrictions as interdining and intermarriage.

(8) To destroy caste system and adopt Western European social system means that Hindus must give up the principle of hereditary occupation which is the soul of the caste system. Hereditary principle is an eternal principle. To change it is to create disorder. I have no use for a Brahmin if I cannot call him a Brahmin for my life. It will be a chaos if every day a Brahmin is to be changed into a Shudra and a Shudra is to be changed into a Brahmin.

(9) The caste system is a natural order of society. In India it has been given a religious coating. Other countries not having understood the utility of the caste system, it existed only in a loose condition and consequently those countries have not derived from caste system the same degree of advantage which India has derived. These being my views I am opposed to all those who are out to destroy the caste system.

Dear Harimau,

Did you bother reading the whole article? Now we can excuse Orwell for that one last line, because he clearly did not have the advantage of having Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi, 90 volumes available on CD, Gandhiserv and in hard copy that we do today. Thus his article (which if you read in entirety) is true right uptill that last line which is a joke.

Anyone who reads history fairly... knows that the minority dissidents of the anti-Gandhi camp i.e. Ambedkar, Naicker and Jinnah stood head and shoulders above Gandhi in honesty, integrity and incorruptibility. Infact it would be unfair to compare these three gentlemen with Gandhi... So the question is whether Orwell considered them leading political figures? Orwell after all was not the Gospel either.

#135 Hamidm2

[........ bottom line - i trust my father`s account of his first hand experiences...]

Let me expand that for you, O gaseous one:

“……Dear Bjkumar.....I, like the rest of that crowd, resolutely hang on to the childhood poisoning that was administered to me at home....because questioning it will be tantamount to questioning those icons so firmly entrenched……I am not an utter idiot, you see …… I am not incapable of independent judgment and rising above childhood conditioning, you see……I am only chicken! ……Cluck, cluck!”

You are welcome, again!

Ref AlephNull #132

[So that racist casteist misogynist obscurantist religious-revivalist monster Gandhi has finally arrived on the Orwell-Musharraf board. Let it be known that Orwell added his powerful voice to those denouncing that Hindutva-fascist Hindu-fanatic hate-filled half-naked fakir and hypocritical fraud Gandhi. Here, then, is

Orwell contra Gandhi]

Orwell says in the conclusion of his ``denunciation``

[One may feel, as I do, a sort of aesthetic distaste for Gandhi, one may reject the claims of sainthood made on his behalf (he never made any such claim himself, by the way), one may also reject sainthood as an ideal and therefore feel that Gandhi`s basic aims were anti-human and reactionary: but regarded simply as a politician, and compared with the other leading political figures of our time, how clean a smell he has managed to leave behind!]

Pretty powerful denunciation, if you ask me, of other leading political figures of the time including Mohammad Ali Jinnah.

bj,

........ bottom line - i trust my father`s account of his first hand experiences than your biased opinion based on years of institutional indoctrination ........... i hope you can overcome your prejudices .......

#133 Hamidm2

This is great! Hamidm2’s latest alibi!

“My mom made me do it!!!”

Mian, you forgot to add what naturally follows on, so let me do it for you!

Here is how your full version goes:

“……Dear Bjkumar, I understand what you say but choose to do nothing about the problem. …… I am a product of the narrow-mindedness and the “no-questions-to-be-asked-or-encouraged” army mentality that was drilled into my head when I was growing up ……therefore, I must purposefully look away from the good intentions of Gandhi ……and the narrow-minded prejudiced selfish mindset of the Jinnah ……which is obvious to the rest of the world and which caused those rivers of blood to flow ……rivers of blood which will in all likelihood pale in comparison with what lies ahead if people like me choose to do nothing about it! …… Therefore, I consider it sufficient to crack a few jokes to cover up the problem ……and hope that everyone will laugh and say “Gee, that’s great! Well done, Hamidm sahib!” …… and we will all go home and will have to do nothing about the underlying root problem of the narrow mindset that we Pakistanis have ……and which I, like the rest of that crowd, resolutely hang on to because questioning it will be tantamount to questioning those icons so firmly entrenched……I am not an utter idiot, you see …… I am not incapable of independent judgment and rising above childhood conditioning, you see……I am only chicken! ……Cluck, cluck!”

You are welcome!

So that racist casteist misogynist obscurantist religious-revivalist monster Gandhi has finally arrived on the Orwell-Musharraf board. Let it be known that Orwell added his powerful voice to those denouncing that Hindutva-fascist Hindu-fanatic hate-filled half-naked fakir and hypocritical fraud Gandhi. Here, then, is

Orwell contra Gandhi