Musharraf’s Coup - Seven Years Later
Pervez Hoodbhoy October 12, 2006
#237 Posted by krishna_abcd on October 20, 2006 9:49:40 pm
#236 by swarrier
[Even if the Bajrang Dal does not want Hinduism to rule the world they want their brand of Hinduism to be accepted by all.]
Accepted, or adopted? Which one do you mean? There`s a BIG difference between the two.
[This does not make them any different factually from a Wahabi fundamentalist.]
Really? Ok, we can talk about this AFTER you answer the question above.
[That Hinduism is too plural to accept that rubbish is the only reason why they may not succeed. But it is a dangerous path to tread. People can be coerced or seduced by less.]
What`s your background, I wonder. While I know that the caste you were born into is immaterial as far as evaluating you as a human being is concerned, I was wondering whether you belong to the SC/ST or Dalit sections of society. Or are you a Christian?
I would appreciate it very much if you would tell me.
[Vandalising shops on Valentine`s day isn`t exactly a good thing. ]
No. But killing Sikhs when Indira died isn`t a good thing either. Our country is poor, with a lot of uneducated people. Things are not perfect in ANY political party.
[Luckily Jihad (as defined by fundamentalists) will not find a calling amongst all Hindus. We do not all follow the same ideals, thank goodness. ]
Would you be so kind as to provide some references regarding this ``jihad`` amongst the Hindu fundamentalists?
[As for constitutional democracy, then the Bajrang Dal must still respect the law, lip service will not do. ]
You mean, like no killing sikhs, or no declaring of Emergency - things like that?
[The Shiv Sena was not created as a response against Islamic thugs. It was created by the Congress to contain the trade unions in Bombay. Then they became anti South Indian and then donned the Hindutva mantle. ]
Bal Thackeray created the Shiv Sena to give voice to the anti-immigrant feeling amongst Marathis. But this was becoming less popular, so he utilized the anti-Pakistan, anti-National and anti-Mulsim sentiments.
No political party exists in a vacuum. Without anger against Islamic thugs, the Shiv Sena would have died out long ago.
[I am not for appeasement. But if you`ve got to do things you must do it right. I don`t have any solution to offer.]
Well until you have one, don`t criticize others.
[But if we stop disliking each other that may be a step in the right direction.]
I don`t think 45,000 hindus have died in Kashmir, and many thousands of Pandits have been forced to flee their homeland because they were ``disliking`` the ``other``.
[Otherwise ``our hoods are fine and their hoods are bad`` will be the spiel on both sides.]
It is easy to sermonize. But this kind of inaction has resulted in thousands of deaths. The problem is not 50-50. Muslims are fighting every other community in every country in the world. Muslims are the common denominator. THEY are the problem.
And JNU jholawalas.
[Even if the Bajrang Dal does not want Hinduism to rule the world they want their brand of Hinduism to be accepted by all.]
Accepted, or adopted? Which one do you mean? There`s a BIG difference between the two.
[This does not make them any different factually from a Wahabi fundamentalist.]
Really? Ok, we can talk about this AFTER you answer the question above.
[That Hinduism is too plural to accept that rubbish is the only reason why they may not succeed. But it is a dangerous path to tread. People can be coerced or seduced by less.]
What`s your background, I wonder. While I know that the caste you were born into is immaterial as far as evaluating you as a human being is concerned, I was wondering whether you belong to the SC/ST or Dalit sections of society. Or are you a Christian?
I would appreciate it very much if you would tell me.
[Vandalising shops on Valentine`s day isn`t exactly a good thing. ]
No. But killing Sikhs when Indira died isn`t a good thing either. Our country is poor, with a lot of uneducated people. Things are not perfect in ANY political party.
[Luckily Jihad (as defined by fundamentalists) will not find a calling amongst all Hindus. We do not all follow the same ideals, thank goodness. ]
Would you be so kind as to provide some references regarding this ``jihad`` amongst the Hindu fundamentalists?
[As for constitutional democracy, then the Bajrang Dal must still respect the law, lip service will not do. ]
You mean, like no killing sikhs, or no declaring of Emergency - things like that?
[The Shiv Sena was not created as a response against Islamic thugs. It was created by the Congress to contain the trade unions in Bombay. Then they became anti South Indian and then donned the Hindutva mantle. ]
Bal Thackeray created the Shiv Sena to give voice to the anti-immigrant feeling amongst Marathis. But this was becoming less popular, so he utilized the anti-Pakistan, anti-National and anti-Mulsim sentiments.
No political party exists in a vacuum. Without anger against Islamic thugs, the Shiv Sena would have died out long ago.
[I am not for appeasement. But if you`ve got to do things you must do it right. I don`t have any solution to offer.]
Well until you have one, don`t criticize others.
[But if we stop disliking each other that may be a step in the right direction.]
I don`t think 45,000 hindus have died in Kashmir, and many thousands of Pandits have been forced to flee their homeland because they were ``disliking`` the ``other``.
[Otherwise ``our hoods are fine and their hoods are bad`` will be the spiel on both sides.]
It is easy to sermonize. But this kind of inaction has resulted in thousands of deaths. The problem is not 50-50. Muslims are fighting every other community in every country in the world. Muslims are the common denominator. THEY are the problem.
And JNU jholawalas.
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#236 Posted by swarrier on October 20, 2006 8:58:54 am
Re: # 230
Krishna
Even if the Bajrang Dal does not want Hinduism to rule the world they want their brand of Hinduism to be accepted by all. This does not make them any different factually from a Wahabi fundamentalist. That Hinduism is too plural to accept that rubbish is the only reason why they may not succeed. But it is a dangerous path to tread. People can be coerced or seduced by less. Vandalising shops on Valentine`s day isn`t exactly a good thing.
Luckily Jihad (as defined by fundamentalists) will not find a calling amongst all Hindus. We do not all follow the same ideals, thank goodness.
As for constitutional democracy, then the Bajrang Dal must still respect the law, lip service will not do.
The Shiv Sena was not created as a response against Islamic thugs. It was created by the Congress to contain the trade unions in Bombay. Then they became anti South Indian and then donned the Hindutva mantle.
I am not for appeasement. But if you`ve got to do things you must do it right. I don`t have any solution to offer. But if we stop disliking each other that may be a step in the right direction. Otherwise ``our hoods are fine and their hoods are bad`` will be the spiel on both sides.
Krishna
Even if the Bajrang Dal does not want Hinduism to rule the world they want their brand of Hinduism to be accepted by all. This does not make them any different factually from a Wahabi fundamentalist. That Hinduism is too plural to accept that rubbish is the only reason why they may not succeed. But it is a dangerous path to tread. People can be coerced or seduced by less. Vandalising shops on Valentine`s day isn`t exactly a good thing.
Luckily Jihad (as defined by fundamentalists) will not find a calling amongst all Hindus. We do not all follow the same ideals, thank goodness.
As for constitutional democracy, then the Bajrang Dal must still respect the law, lip service will not do.
The Shiv Sena was not created as a response against Islamic thugs. It was created by the Congress to contain the trade unions in Bombay. Then they became anti South Indian and then donned the Hindutva mantle.
I am not for appeasement. But if you`ve got to do things you must do it right. I don`t have any solution to offer. But if we stop disliking each other that may be a step in the right direction. Otherwise ``our hoods are fine and their hoods are bad`` will be the spiel on both sides.
#235 Posted by bongdongs on October 19, 2006 8:46:59 pm
here is the amnesty international press release after the reopening of the cases
link
Amnesty International also points out that the Supreme Court has ordered the Gujarat police to reopen a large number of cases relating to the communal violence which the police had earlier declared as closed. As per the ruling, as many as 1,594 cases have been reopened and action has been taken against 41 police officials for their alleged role in the communal violence. The Supreme Court has asked the Gujarat police to file quarterly reports on the progress of the investigations.
link
Amnesty International also points out that the Supreme Court has ordered the Gujarat police to reopen a large number of cases relating to the communal violence which the police had earlier declared as closed. As per the ruling, as many as 1,594 cases have been reopened and action has been taken against 41 police officials for their alleged role in the communal violence. The Supreme Court has asked the Gujarat police to file quarterly reports on the progress of the investigations.
#234 Posted by bongdongs on October 19, 2006 8:40:03 pm
#231
I essentially agree. I would modify with following changes:
1. People like Teesta Seetalvad played a very prominent role to get a retrial and she deserves great praise for persisting even when Zahira Shaikh stabbed her in the back.
2. Not one, but 2 cases are the ``showpiece`` cases transferred to special courts in Maharastra: Best Bakery and the Bilkis Bano case, but the supreme court has also forced reopening of several hundred cases in Gujarat and hopefully these cases will thoroughy re-investigated.
3. The CBI is investigating the Bilkis Bano case, this is a first for riot cases in India. The doctors and policemen who tried to cover up the case have also been charge sheeted.
See, you have to compare to previous riots like Delhi `83, Baghalpur riots etc and notice that with an activist press and judiciary things can be better this time around. What is important is for the press and public to not lose interest and force genuine investigation and trials for the several hundred cases reopened in Gujarat, because we know if public interest drifts local politicians will try to hush up the cases again.
I essentially agree. I would modify with following changes:
1. People like Teesta Seetalvad played a very prominent role to get a retrial and she deserves great praise for persisting even when Zahira Shaikh stabbed her in the back.
2. Not one, but 2 cases are the ``showpiece`` cases transferred to special courts in Maharastra: Best Bakery and the Bilkis Bano case, but the supreme court has also forced reopening of several hundred cases in Gujarat and hopefully these cases will thoroughy re-investigated.
3. The CBI is investigating the Bilkis Bano case, this is a first for riot cases in India. The doctors and policemen who tried to cover up the case have also been charge sheeted.
See, you have to compare to previous riots like Delhi `83, Baghalpur riots etc and notice that with an activist press and judiciary things can be better this time around. What is important is for the press and public to not lose interest and force genuine investigation and trials for the several hundred cases reopened in Gujarat, because we know if public interest drifts local politicians will try to hush up the cases again.
#233 Posted by okhla99 on October 19, 2006 8:27:27 pm
Re: # 223
Respected Bongdongs,
Sequence of events is like this :
1. Horrible crime against Muslims in India. Hundreds of case registered.
2. Long drawn out Legal Battle in courts, intimidation of witnesses etc.
3. Clear acquittal of all accused by the courts.
4. International outcry and great turmoil within the local muslim votebanks.
5. Some cases specially highlighted by media.
5. Setting up of special court for trying one case only. Retrial transferred.
6. Guilty verdict obtained. Special court wound up.
7. Cases highlighted by media settled to appease vote bank and international outcry.
8. Business as usual.
But even this is many many times better than the Pakistan system of justice for women and minorities.
Respected Bongdongs,
Sequence of events is like this :
1. Horrible crime against Muslims in India. Hundreds of case registered.
2. Long drawn out Legal Battle in courts, intimidation of witnesses etc.
3. Clear acquittal of all accused by the courts.
4. International outcry and great turmoil within the local muslim votebanks.
5. Some cases specially highlighted by media.
5. Setting up of special court for trying one case only. Retrial transferred.
6. Guilty verdict obtained. Special court wound up.
7. Cases highlighted by media settled to appease vote bank and international outcry.
8. Business as usual.
But even this is many many times better than the Pakistan system of justice for women and minorities.
#232 Posted by einsteinwallah on October 19, 2006 8:27:08 pm
If Islamic revolutionary government takes over Pakistan why would India attack Pakistan and do America`s dirty job of killing the Jihadi monster that CIA created to fight socialism and communism?
Why would India be so stupid? It would let Pakistan self-destruct or let US do its own dirty job. Unless if there is broad consensus. In that case it is no more only only US`s dirty job, it is allied powers` dirty job. India will happily participate in a broder effort.
Sau Baat Ki Ek Baat ... Islam as you and I knew is going. Aakhri Saans Hai Islam Ki. Ab Marne Ko Taiyyar Hai. Either it reforms, or it goes.
Why would India be so stupid? It would let Pakistan self-destruct or let US do its own dirty job. Unless if there is broad consensus. In that case it is no more only only US`s dirty job, it is allied powers` dirty job. India will happily participate in a broder effort.
Sau Baat Ki Ek Baat ... Islam as you and I knew is going. Aakhri Saans Hai Islam Ki. Ab Marne Ko Taiyyar Hai. Either it reforms, or it goes.
#231 Posted by okhla99 on October 19, 2006 8:22:10 pm
Re: # 223
Respected Bongdongs,
Sequence of events is like this :
1. Horrible crime against Muslims in India. Hundreds of case registered.
2. Long drawn out Legal Battle in courts, intimidation of witnesses etc.
3. Clear acquittal of all accused by the courts.
4. International outcry and great turmoil within the local muslim votebanks.
5. Some cases specially highlighted by media.
5. Setting up of special court for trying one case only. Retrial transferred.
6. Guilty verdict obtained. Special court wound up.
7. Cases highlighted by media settled to appease vote bank and international outcry.
8. Business as usual.
But even this is many many times better than the Pakistan system of justice for women and minorities.
Respected Bongdongs,
Sequence of events is like this :
1. Horrible crime against Muslims in India. Hundreds of case registered.
2. Long drawn out Legal Battle in courts, intimidation of witnesses etc.
3. Clear acquittal of all accused by the courts.
4. International outcry and great turmoil within the local muslim votebanks.
5. Some cases specially highlighted by media.
5. Setting up of special court for trying one case only. Retrial transferred.
6. Guilty verdict obtained. Special court wound up.
7. Cases highlighted by media settled to appease vote bank and international outcry.
8. Business as usual.
But even this is many many times better than the Pakistan system of justice for women and minorities.
#230 Posted by krishna_abcd on October 19, 2006 8:19:59 pm
#225 by swarrier
[Frankly I don`t see any difference between the Islamist idiots in Pakistan or and the Vanar Sena and the Bajrang Dal cretins.
I don`t see why we should choose to like either of these cretins. Our punks are no better than their punks. ]
Okay, let`s talk about this.
Frankly, I see MANY differences. Lets see....
1) Islamist idiots in Pakistan believe that Islam should rule the world.
The Shiv Sena or the Bajrang Dal do not think Hinduism should rule the world.
2) Islamist idiots are for world Jehad.
The Shiv Sena or the Bajrang Dal are not.
3) Islamist idiots want to convert everybody to their religion.
The Shiv Sena or the Bajrang Dal do not.
4) Islamist idiots want sharia imposed on society (in a recent poll, according to BBCNews, 40% of UK Muslims said they wanted Sharia law).
The Shiv Sena or the Bajrang Dal want constitutional democracy.
5) The Shiv Sena or the Bajrang Dal was created as a response to Islamist thugs that have raped mother India for centuries.
The Islamist idiots have raped mother India for centuries.
The list is very long.
While I feel that ANYONE (yes, this includes everybody!) who dares to touch another innocent person should be tried to the fullest extent of the law, I also feel that there needs to be a strong right-wing coalition to defeat the coalition of the JNU jholawalas and the Islamist enemy in our midst.
The time for appeasement and votebank politics is over. If Hindus do to go right wing now, they will suffer untold miseries in the future. Look at Europe. The right is resurgent everywhere in Europe. I think they recognize the cancer in their midst.
It`s time for radical surgery.
[Frankly I don`t see any difference between the Islamist idiots in Pakistan or and the Vanar Sena and the Bajrang Dal cretins.
I don`t see why we should choose to like either of these cretins. Our punks are no better than their punks. ]
Okay, let`s talk about this.
Frankly, I see MANY differences. Lets see....
1) Islamist idiots in Pakistan believe that Islam should rule the world.
The Shiv Sena or the Bajrang Dal do not think Hinduism should rule the world.
2) Islamist idiots are for world Jehad.
The Shiv Sena or the Bajrang Dal are not.
3) Islamist idiots want to convert everybody to their religion.
The Shiv Sena or the Bajrang Dal do not.
4) Islamist idiots want sharia imposed on society (in a recent poll, according to BBCNews, 40% of UK Muslims said they wanted Sharia law).
The Shiv Sena or the Bajrang Dal want constitutional democracy.
5) The Shiv Sena or the Bajrang Dal was created as a response to Islamist thugs that have raped mother India for centuries.
The Islamist idiots have raped mother India for centuries.
The list is very long.
While I feel that ANYONE (yes, this includes everybody!) who dares to touch another innocent person should be tried to the fullest extent of the law, I also feel that there needs to be a strong right-wing coalition to defeat the coalition of the JNU jholawalas and the Islamist enemy in our midst.
The time for appeasement and votebank politics is over. If Hindus do to go right wing now, they will suffer untold miseries in the future. Look at Europe. The right is resurgent everywhere in Europe. I think they recognize the cancer in their midst.
It`s time for radical surgery.
#229 Posted by okhla99 on October 19, 2006 8:11:58 pm
Re: # 223
Respected Bongdongs,
Sequence of events is like this :
Respected Bongdongs,
Sequence of events is like this :
#228 Posted by krishna_abcd on October 19, 2006 8:08:39 pm
#222 by okhla99
[We are not talking routine here.
The Indian system does not have provision for routine shifting of cases. In the Best Bakery case, a special court was set up to convict the accused, only one case was transferred to it and the desired conviction obtained. The court was wound up. ]
Why is the Best Bakery case a case of ``routine shifting``?
I am at a loss here.
We will delve into what provison the Indian system has or does not have, after we get your response on this.
With warm regards,
[We are not talking routine here.
The Indian system does not have provision for routine shifting of cases. In the Best Bakery case, a special court was set up to convict the accused, only one case was transferred to it and the desired conviction obtained. The court was wound up. ]
Why is the Best Bakery case a case of ``routine shifting``?
I am at a loss here.
We will delve into what provison the Indian system has or does not have, after we get your response on this.
With warm regards,
#227 Posted by okhla99 on October 19, 2006 8:06:05 pm
e: # 225
Respected Swarrier,
My sentiments exactly.
Our punks are as stupid, sometimes more so, than yours. The politicians/ bureaucracy in both countries are equally corrupt. The police and lower judiciary is also equally corrupt in both countries. However, I will grant that at higher levels, the Indian political and judicial sysytems are more mature and evolved than in Pakistan. So is the average quality of judges and PM/Prez.
The Hindu extremists who find every thing wrong with Islam and Pakistan try to gloss over their own failures and shortcomings. The extreme Jihadi punks are out to hurt every thing Indian or every thing non-muslim in Pakistan.
There are a number of common problems (other than illiteracy/poverty/bijli/paani) which plague both countries. We should look for a solution to these problems, if not together then separately.
We can continue to be belligewrent and threaten each other as long as we wish, but for Pak and Ind ,mutual salvation lies only in mutual help and understanding.
The sooner we realise this, the better.
Respected Swarrier,
My sentiments exactly.
Our punks are as stupid, sometimes more so, than yours. The politicians/ bureaucracy in both countries are equally corrupt. The police and lower judiciary is also equally corrupt in both countries. However, I will grant that at higher levels, the Indian political and judicial sysytems are more mature and evolved than in Pakistan. So is the average quality of judges and PM/Prez.
The Hindu extremists who find every thing wrong with Islam and Pakistan try to gloss over their own failures and shortcomings. The extreme Jihadi punks are out to hurt every thing Indian or every thing non-muslim in Pakistan.
There are a number of common problems (other than illiteracy/poverty/bijli/paani) which plague both countries. We should look for a solution to these problems, if not together then separately.
We can continue to be belligewrent and threaten each other as long as we wish, but for Pak and Ind ,mutual salvation lies only in mutual help and understanding.
The sooner we realise this, the better.
#226 Posted by friend on October 19, 2006 5:16:19 pm
#211 by okhla99
``Respected Bongdongs,
WHY WAS THE RETRIAL SHIFTED TO MAHARASHTRA ????? Under some ``specially enacted`` provision of Indian Law ??? How can jurisdiction be changed like this ??? Is your legal system a joke ????
..............................
You blody foool , you just don`t understand... do you????
Well! well!! When one looses the argument, name calling starts.
``Respected Bongdongs,
WHY WAS THE RETRIAL SHIFTED TO MAHARASHTRA ????? Under some ``specially enacted`` provision of Indian Law ??? How can jurisdiction be changed like this ??? Is your legal system a joke ????
..............................
You blody foool , you just don`t understand... do you????
Well! well!! When one looses the argument, name calling starts.
#225 Posted by swarrier on October 19, 2006 11:12:34 am
Re: # 221
[Yes, Hinduism and Islam are very similar. As are the Hindus of India and the Taliban of the NWFP, or Hindus and any of the Islamists of Pakiland.
Well said]
Frankly I don`t see any difference between the Islamist idiots in Pakistan or and the Vanar Sena and the Bajrang Dal cretins.
I don`t see why we should choose to like either of these cretins. Our punks are no better than their punks.
[Yes, Hinduism and Islam are very similar. As are the Hindus of India and the Taliban of the NWFP, or Hindus and any of the Islamists of Pakiland.
Well said]
Frankly I don`t see any difference between the Islamist idiots in Pakistan or and the Vanar Sena and the Bajrang Dal cretins.
I don`t see why we should choose to like either of these cretins. Our punks are no better than their punks.
#224 Posted by VRV on October 19, 2006 10:51:00 am
Okhla,
U are resorting to sweeping generalisations here. I dont know what u know abt law or what are ur motivations in resorting to this fracas.
Indian public, NGOs and judiciary were ready to help in Gujarat but ur baby Zaheera was corrupt like anybody and happy with the money she got from saffron bodies. I presume that u are shedding crocodile tears here for Indian Muslims and taking the communal angle on this issue. Btw, what ur locus standi on Gujarat? Are u arguing coz it`s a human rights issue or it’s coz the overall losers are Muslims in Gujarat?
I wud be much forthcoming if u be more open with ur name and identity. I dont prefer shadow boxing. Willy-nilly u are forcing us to argue in favour of this Hindu-Muslim angle debate.
U are resorting to sweeping generalisations here. I dont know what u know abt law or what are ur motivations in resorting to this fracas.
Indian public, NGOs and judiciary were ready to help in Gujarat but ur baby Zaheera was corrupt like anybody and happy with the money she got from saffron bodies. I presume that u are shedding crocodile tears here for Indian Muslims and taking the communal angle on this issue. Btw, what ur locus standi on Gujarat? Are u arguing coz it`s a human rights issue or it’s coz the overall losers are Muslims in Gujarat?
I wud be much forthcoming if u be more open with ur name and identity. I dont prefer shadow boxing. Willy-nilly u are forcing us to argue in favour of this Hindu-Muslim angle debate.
#223 Posted by bongdongs on October 19, 2006 10:47:51 am
#222
In the Best Bakery case, a special court was set up to convict the accused, only one case was transferred to it and the desired conviction obtained
Again that is factually incorrect, more than one case has been transferred to Mahrashtra. For instance, most prominent is the Bilkis Bano case:
http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/jan/13bilkis.htm
``A special court in Mumbai has cleared the decks for the commencement of trial in the case of gang rape of Bilkis Bano and massacre of members of the minority community in Gujarat.
The court on Thursday framed charges against the accused for their alleged complicity in the attack on a group of 17 members of the minority community on March 3, 2002, in the aftermath of the Godhra riots.
The Supreme Court had transferred the trial of the case from Gujarat to Maharashtra on August six last year, following the fear expressed by Bilkis Bano that `the witnesses and the Central Bureau of Investigation, which is probing the case, would come under harm in Gujarat`.``
In the Best Bakery case, a special court was set up to convict the accused, only one case was transferred to it and the desired conviction obtained
Again that is factually incorrect, more than one case has been transferred to Mahrashtra. For instance, most prominent is the Bilkis Bano case:
http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/jan/13bilkis.htm
``A special court in Mumbai has cleared the decks for the commencement of trial in the case of gang rape of Bilkis Bano and massacre of members of the minority community in Gujarat.
The court on Thursday framed charges against the accused for their alleged complicity in the attack on a group of 17 members of the minority community on March 3, 2002, in the aftermath of the Godhra riots.
The Supreme Court had transferred the trial of the case from Gujarat to Maharashtra on August six last year, following the fear expressed by Bilkis Bano that `the witnesses and the Central Bureau of Investigation, which is probing the case, would come under harm in Gujarat`.``
#222 Posted by okhla99 on October 19, 2006 10:03:38 am
Re: # 219
respected Mr Krishna--xyz
We are not talking routine here.
The Indian system does not have provision for routine shifting of cases. In the Best Bakery case, a special court was set up to convict the accused, only one case was transferred to it and the desired conviction obtained. The court was wound up.
Does this happen in any other country ??????
respected Mr Krishna--xyz
We are not talking routine here.
The Indian system does not have provision for routine shifting of cases. In the Best Bakery case, a special court was set up to convict the accused, only one case was transferred to it and the desired conviction obtained. The court was wound up.
Does this happen in any other country ??????
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