Musharraf’s Coup - Seven Years Later

Wow... balochistan , Waziristan... what do we have next.... FATA ke FAT gayee Hai !!! I can see the future(really!!!!)USP(United states of Pakistan) is a reality. Pak army should stop fingering it`s Padosis(India, Afghanistan, Iran) , and it`s politicians before it is too late for them to find retirement homes for the Generals ....

Re: # 281
Sonny
Anybody who has made attacks is you. Don`t protest too much if somebody tells you that you don`t have guts, or brains. Also a rational argument does not usually end in the statement , `` I find that hard to believe``. You`ve got to have proof bud.

Now you being rational is laughable just as Himmler was about the Jews.

Name calling usually indicates a paucity of imagination, intelligence etc. Now that you admit that sex is the seat of your reason, try to understand that other people reason with a brain.

You don`t even have a sense of humour.

Krishna_abcd

Mercifully, the long era of unlimited acceptance is coming to an end, even in India - a land that went the farthest on this poorly considered route, and naturally paid the heaviest cost for its folly.

#279 by sadna

[You must be some loser Paki`s kin to be talking so much out of your rear end. See, I can argue like you do too, but I don`t see the point. ]

Actually I`ll try my best to limit my interactions on Chowk to a minimum, and maybe even wean myself off gradually - it is hard not to want to stuff choice invectives down the throats of scum like HP, faisaluno, HisExcellency a lot of times.

Chowk is infested with common idiots such as yourself. There are only a handful of knowledgeable people worth talking to, who argue on point, and are also well-read and articulate. But they seem not to interact that often - they seem to have come to this realization long ago, having been around longer.

Go start an argument with Mantolives or HP.

#274 by swarrier

[...For example, from your irrational hatred of Muslims am I to conclude that some sensible Muslim girl who you pined after gave you the good old heave-ho (as Wodehouse would put it.) After all it is your assumption that reasoning seems to be driven by your genitals.]

Yes, IF I refuse to provide any rational argument for my supposed ``hatred`` for Muslims, THEN you can consider that as a possible motive - this kind of motive is accepted in courts around the world on a daily basis.

See if you can understand the above statement.

I think you will try to evade the issue ans make ad-hominem attacks. Because you HAVE no argument left.

#275 by kaalchakra

[See if you agree with this view. In the Indian tradition, there are two ``peaceful`` religions: Buddhism and Jainism. Hinduism is netural about violence. It recognizes force and violence as necessary aspects of the state maintaining order and state. Force/violence is given legitimacy as the Kshatriya dharma.]

There is no clear-cut definition for Hinduism. There is a wide array of philosophies, with common threads running through them, and there is a wide array of social norms, beliefs and traditions that are based on a myriad of mythologies, some of them used to illustrate the principles of some of the world-views. Beyond that, Hindu tradition and culture is a vast collage of often contradictory ideologies, ranging from the human-sacrifice of the Kali-worshipping ``Thuggies`` to this Swarrier`s ghoulish ancestors who apparently used to offer body-parts to the Gods, to the Vaishnavs, the Shaivites, the Jains to the Buddhists and a thousand others.

The main thread that connects the disparate beliefs in Hinduism is not an interest in the mundane - who should be fighting whom, how one should be marrying, and how many, whether you should be peeling off your foreskin and nonsense like that. It is interested about the deeper questions that are common to all of humanity. It is a quest for knowledge with no guaranteed answers.

In Hindu mythologies, though, you are absolutely correct when you say that there is literature that talks about such things as violence and non-violence.



[But this legitimated ``violence`` is made secondary to and is constrained to broad (not day-to-day) guidance from the intellectual moral order of the society. Sikhism (khalsa tradition) is the only Indian religion that actually makes violence a positive value but ONLY and unambiguously in regard to self-defence.

So, if by violent religion, one means recourse to violence in order to compel others to see the ``religious/moral light`` as we see it, then there are probably no such Indian religions. If by violent religions, one means any religion that considers violence as legitmate choice under ANY circumstances, then Hinduism and Sikhism would fall under this category. Hinduism is quite neutral, considering violence as a (necessary) tool in the hands of the order-maintaining/expanding political state. Sikhism`s relationship to violence is more explicitly `spiritual` and is related to self-defense and self-preservation. ]

I think the reason Hindus have suffered so much in the hands of the Muslims is because of our tradition of non-violence and extreme tolerance. The same Islamic apologists like Swarrier that try to show the whole Hindu-Muslim thing as a 50-50 issue, are the people that defend the right of the Muslims to erect mosques in the holiest of Hindu places, and simultaneously defend the Muslims` right to deny any non-Muslims any right to set foot in Mecca and Medina.

These traitors and turncoats are the enablers that allow Islam to continuously eat away at the peace and happiness of the average Indian like an everpresent cancer. They are the ones that prevent any decisive step to be taken - sanctimoniously self-righteous and self-professed intellectuals.

If the jehadis and the jehadi sympathisers want war, by god, I say let`s give it to them. Indians are dying everyday anyway at the hands of these mofos. Let`s roll right through that accursed Pakiland and Afganiland and Iran and Iraq and convert all the Muslims to anything they want except for Islam. Let`s invite the world to join in. After we have rolled through Pakiland and Afganiland, there will be others who will join us.

I say let`s just do it. Use the Spanish formula. For a brighter tomorrow for everybody.

krishna_abcd#271
You must be some loser Paki`s kin to be talking so much out of your rear end. See, I can argue like you do too, but I don`t see the point.

Re: # 277
Them`s were different times, now I am in pursuit of a good Santoku knife to dice vegetables etc. These horrible Germans charge the earth for good steel.

swarrier

Glad we agree. Having to disagree with a sword-worshipping friend would have been worrisome. :)

Re: # 275
Kaal my dear fellow. That is precisely what I meant. After all as a wee child on my mothers side of the family we were to worship our family swords et al , that are still preserved from god knows when. Tahmed may know, he claims to be old enough. -)

Plus we were also supposed to chop up a few unsuspecting animals and offer them up to our family goddess. I presume in the old days a few enemy body parts would have sufficed. Dang the British for stopping all those fun times.

Of course tradition demanded that you abstained from eating meat before the battle to purify your mind from vague thoughts. So its all impersonal you see.

Swarrier and krishna

See if you agree with this view. In the Indian tradition, there are two ``peaceful`` religions: Buddhism and Jainism. Hinduism is netural about violence. It recognizes force and violence as necessary aspects of the state maintaining order and state. Force/violence is given legitimacy as the Kshatriya dharma. But this legitimated ``violence`` is made secondary to and is constrained to broad (not day-to-day) guidance from the intellectual moral order of the society. Sikhism (khalsa tradition) is the only Indian religion that actually makes violence a positive value but ONLY and unambiguously in regard to self-defence.

So, if by violent religion, one means recourse to violence in order to compel others to see the ``religious/moral light`` as we see it, then there are probably no such Indian religions. If by violent religions, one means any religion that considers violence as legitmate choice under ANY circumstances, then Hinduism and Sikhism would fall under this category. Hinduism is quite neutral, considering violence as a (necessary) tool in the hands of the order-maintaining/expanding political state. Sikhism`s relationship to violence is more explicitly `spiritual` and is related to self-defense and self-preservation.

This is just an opinion, and both of you will naturally have equally valid ideas regarding this subject.

Re: # 271
[You have become too accustomed to arguing with idiots like Mantolives, ad nauseum. Asking for someone`s personal details does not equate to personalizing the discussion.]

Perhaps you fail to see what is clear to other people, that asking someone for personal details and using it to form your own biased conclusions is personalising the discussion.

For example, from your irrational hatred of Muslims am I to conclude that some sensible Muslim girl who you pined after gave you the good old heave-ho (as Wodehouse would put it.) After all it is your assumption that reasoning seems to be driven by your genitals.

Krishna

That is a most painful story. Undoubtedly, there are innumerable such incidences on all sides. We have to understand what is going on here. Why some communities are hurt more than others, what they are doing wrong, and others doing right.

Re: # 270
Dear abcd
You are wrong as usual. I said Hinduism is not a peaceful religion. Go back and look at my post. I will elaborate on this. Hinduism acknowledges that violence is sometimes necessary, that war must be waged against enemies.

The proof of the pudding lies in the eating. There is a caste of people, amongst Hindus, who fight, ergo, therefore the religion accepts the fact that fighting is necessary.
A peaceful religion by my definition that believes solely in non-violence as a solution for everything.

The Bhagavad Gita is said to have been expounded on a battlefield. Or did you think they were playing gilli-danda?

You must really re-think your conclusion mechanism. It is amusing and infantile. As is your wont for ferreting out personal details and insulting other peoples beliefs.

#268

[You have demanded another poster`s personal details on this very thread, so there is no point in denying it.]

You have become too accustomed to arguing with idiots like Mantolives, ad nauseum. Asking for someone`s personal details does not equate to personalizing the discussion. For example, if you are Hitler`s kin, and REFUSE to give any logic for your biased statements about Jews, then ONE of the possible reasons would certainly be that this is caused by your kinship to Hitler.

See, how your allegation about me is garbage?

[You did say that Bajrang Dal and VHP can`t be compared to jihadis( a number of Indian killers belong to these organisations) so no point in denying that either.]

I am not denying that. The Bajrang Dal and the VHP are POLITICAL PARTIES that cannot be compared to the jehadi organizations.

YOU MISSED THE WHOLE POINT - THAT EVEN IF A FEW GOONDAS IN THE HINDUTVA-VADI PARTIES ARE CRIMINALS, THAT DOESN`T MAKE THE HINDUTVA-VADI PARTIES THE SAME AS THE JEHADI ORGANIZATIONS.

See, I am not contradicting anything that I have said from the beginning. But you are.

Think a little before charging ahead. You are not arguing with Mantolives.

[I have raised and do raise the issue of Congress/Communist violence as and when I think appropriate, not to prove my credibility to self-righteous self-absorbed idiots on the web. ]

Yes, but NOWHERE near as frequestly as you raise issues about the Hindutva-vadi parties.

See, this validates my point about you being biased.

[All you have really to say is that I have Islamist kin and you claim to speak on behalf of all Hindus though I am one too. You are remarkably like Pakis- they call anyone who disagrees with them either anti-Paki or anti-Muslim which is convenient but utterly meaningless. You too basically have no argument to offer( your recital of ignorant prejudice about me cannot be called arguments) so I am done here. ]

I have no arguments, and THAT is why you are trying to escape. This won`t be the first time. :)

Re: # 267

Instead of giving me parables, explain your statement how your caste being warriers equates to Hinduism being a violent religion.

266 by kaalchakra

[....(2) To achieve (1) without presuming anything negative about specific individuals, unless relevant facts are publicly available. Personalizing a debate negates the second objective. ]

kaalchakra,

I never write ANYTHING without thinking about it first, unlike most idiots that pervade this website.

Swarrier had made the asinine statement that the PROOF that Hinduism is a violent religion is the fact that his caste used to be warriers. In spite of my repeated questioning, when he failed to address my questions in this regard, I concluded that he did not have an argument, but passionately believed in it - THEREFORE the reason he is saying this must be one of the two:

1) either, he must have a PERSONAL reason to want to believe it - this is always penis-related, or,

2) he is a JNU jholawala type lefty.

This process has been a way of trying to narrow down why someone would make a highly irrational and asinine statement, AND then stick to his guns, AND REFUSE TO PROVIDE ANY PROOF OR ARGUMENT in this regard.

If people see this as an attempt to personalize issues etc., I really couldn`t care less.

I used to know a Punjabi Hindu family (in the US) where the father was very devout - he used to sing at temples etc. This only daughter (ABCD) fell in love with a Paki. This guy forced her to convert, to change her name, and she used to tell my wife how her mother-in-law would berate her about not being a ``true`` Muslim. When her friend would go to parties this poor girl would be forced to go to the mosque. You should have see her father. He lost weight, lost any interest in life for a while. But gradually he recovered. Within a space of two years he became a virulent Sikh-hater. Used to make jokes about how Sikhs are troublemakers etc. We used to keep quiet - everyone felt sorry for him.

This guy had to rationalize to retain his sanity. He HAD to BELIEVE that Muslims are all good and nonviolent, and Sikhs are the problem-makers in this world - otherwise how could he tolerate the conversion of his only daughter to this 5-times a day Koran-reading Muslim?

Personal experiences and compulsions do have an effect on your thinking process, unless you are mentally strong.

I never said that it is DEFINITELY his penis that swarrier is following. I said it is ONE OF only two explanations there can be, since he himself had no rational explanation for his own statement.

#265

krishna_abcd
You have demanded another poster`s personal details on this very thread, so there is no point in denying it. You did say that Bajrang Dal and VHP can`t be compared to jihadis( a number of Indian killers belong to these organisations) so no point in denying that either. I have raised and do raise the issue of Congress/Communist violence as and when I think appropriate, not to prove my credibility to self-righteous self-absorbed idiots on the web.

All you have really to say is that I have Islamist kin and you claim to speak on behalf of all Hindus though I am one too. You are remarkably like Pakis- they call anyone who disagrees with them either anti-Paki or anti-Muslim which is convenient but utterly meaningless. You too basically have no argument to offer( your recital of ignorant prejudice about me cannot be called arguments) so I am done here.

Re: # 260
dear abcd
Your belief systems are not mine. So do not presume to judge others by your ideas. The role of a true warrior is to destroy his/her enemies without passion, without anger. To understand that they are you and that they live by their ideas and compulsions.

A parable
A long time ago a Samurai`s mentor was killed in an ambush by another person. The Samurai tracked him for many days and then cornered him. As he was about to administer the killing blow the cornered man spat in his face. The Samurai stopped and then sheathed his sword and turned away.
When asked why he had done so , he replied, `` I had to kill him as my duty to avenge my mentor. But when he spat in my face I was so angry that I wanted to kill him out of my own personal rage. It would not have been an act of impersonal revenge, and therefore wrong.``

Now I would suggest you go and read the racist imperialist Kipling`s Rikki Tikki Tavi. There is a character in it called Chuchundra the musk rat. Do not be like Chuchundra. Be brave enough to come to the centre of the room. -))

Krishna_abcd

You made an very perceptive and extremely important point regarding the active depolyment and use of the penis in spreading and defending religion. In extraneous debate, the significance of this point should not be lost: religion may be as much (sometimes, more of) a matter of the male penis as of the human mind. Penis, hence, is not just a symbol used in religious worship.

Krishna, there are two challenges before us: (1) To liberate ourselves from the dark prison of political correctness so we can understand and describe the world as accurately as possible. Distorted reality helps no one. (2) To achieve (1) without presuming anything negative about specific individuals, unless relevant facts are publicly available. Personalizing a debate negates the second objective.

Re: # 263

[Asking people for personal details of their life for disagreeing with you and making pejorative remarks about them is defined as personal attack by me. ]

Actually I have never done that. What the F$##k are you talking about?

[If you can`t discuss a person`s point of view and are reduced to discussing the person, you have already lost the argument. ]

I agree. So you should stick to facts. And try not make personal attacks.

[Which kin is that?]

Your islamist kin, of course.

[You were the one saying that jihadis and Indian killers cannot be compared. ]

That is garbaqe and a lie, of course. I was saying that the POLITICAL PARTIES they belong to cannot be compared.


[And it is no thanks to Congress or BJP that incidents like anti-Sikh riots or Gujarat riots have not recurred in the same scale - since the perpetuators got away scot free, such incidents can very well happen again, in the same or different context.]

Well then you should bring your rantings about Hindutva-vadi parties to the same level as your nonexistent rantings about the Congress party or any other party in India.

[Indians are under threat from such potential incidents like they are under threat from attacks from jihadis, that is the point. ]

I am a patriotic Indian - unlike those who secretly want India to become another Pakiland. I do not think the threat posed by some goondas in every single political party is anywhere near the threat posed by your friends the Islamists.

This is exactly how ALL hindus think, barring a few JNU jholawalas, turncoats, and tree hugger types. That includes people who compromise their thought processes for personal gain - money, or sex.

Re: # 261

Worshipping ANYTHING has nothing to do with Hindu philosophy.

Worshipping deities DOES have to do with Hindu mythology and tradition.

Hindu tradition is highly symbolic - a lingam and the yoni symbolizes something just as the pot-bellied Ganesha symbolizes something. NOTHING is literal. But that would escape you low-class crude Islamic types.

In any case. Even worshipping a penis (if actually anyone did it - nobody does, of course) is a thousand times better than following a pedophile. Not only better, but a thousand times better.

If you understood why, you would not be a Muslim.

#254
Asking people for personal details of their life for disagreeing with you and making pejorative remarks about them is defined as personal attack by me. If you can`t discuss a person`s point of view and are reduced to discussing the person, you have already lost the argument.

``There is no difference between killers - like those Congress Party workers that butchered Sikhs around the country when Indira Gahdhi was killed, and the garden variety jehadi. But there is a BIG difference between the Congress Party and the Taleban. And between the Hindutva-vadis and the Taleban.

Why don`t you do this. If are so honest in your convictions, list out incidents involving the Hindutva-vadis and then I`ll list out incidents involving the jehadis. Then we can compare and contrast.

Here`s another prediction - you`ll cop out like the rest of your kin.``

Which kin is that? You were the one saying that jihadis and Indian killers cannot be compared. I was pointing out the situations in which they can indeed be compared. And it is no thanks to Congress or BJP that incidents like anti-Sikh riots or Gujarat riots have not recurred in the same scale - since the perpetuators got away scot free, such incidents can very well happen again, in the same or different context. Indians are under threat from such potential incidents like they are under threat from attacks from jihadis, that is the point.

<<< Listen, idiot. You are a Islamist, and therefore by definition a pedophile-follower. >>>

Listen, intelligent Krishna, you are a Hindu, and therefore by definition a Penis follower.



<<< You are the lowest of the low, an idiot amongst all idiots. >>>

You are the highest of the high, a genius amongst a race of intellectuals.



<< You and your kind have been stupid enough to have been hoodwinked >>>

You and your kind have been enlightened by tales of monkey gods, ten headed Ravanas, Uran Khatolas, Tiger riding Devis and whatnot.



<<< If you knew how much contempt I have for people like you, you probably would not believe it, brainwashed as you numbskulls are >>>

If you knew how much respect the rest of the world has for people like you, you propbably would not believe it, treated like dirt everywhere as you geniuses are..



<<< Your prophet married his own stepson`s wife, after seeing her naked (to consolidate the spread of Islam). He married many where Islamists cannot say that he was only ``consolidating his empire``. He was a sex-crazed maniac. He raped, and made it okay to rape, war booty women >>>

Your gods were instrumental in having their Draupadi derobed after losing her in a game of chess (booty women). They also had phenomenal respect for women who are still made to worship the Penis in the year 2006.



<<< How much lower can you go. It is amazing that your kind has the guts to stand up and talk to others. >>>

I won`t ever stoop to the level of worshipping the Male penis or a monkey or elephant.
It is still theoretically possible for non-hindus to falll lower.



<<< Keep your opinions about me to yourself, dickhead, if you cannot talk on point. >>>

Your people worship dickheads. So I must be your god. HA HA HA

Re: # 259

Truly Fantastic,

Coming from a Phallus worshipper whose women go to temples to pray to the lingam regularly.

Coming from one whose people worship Monkeys and semi elephants..

Intelligent debates.. yes... very...

Re: # 257

I find that hard to believe, because extracting this last line was like pulling teeth.

If that is indeed true, you must belong to the left-wing JNU-jholawala islamic apologizer category. You deserve to live as a minority in Pakiland.

As I`ve said before, the only consolation I have about people like you is that under Islamic rule (which every Muslim contributes toward), lefty types like yourself are the first to be hanged, or beheaded.

#258 by okhla99

[Krishna-xyz,

You pathetic bloody moron,

You cannot enter into a rational debate with any person before first having complete details about his name, sex, caste creed, and similar details for the person`s friends and relatives.

This strong insistence on things other than the contents of a post exposes you as an opinionated bigot totally incapable of reasoning with logic.

If you need every interactors CV (as well as that of their friends and relatives) before you can interact with them, you probably need to have your head examined.

Run along, consult a psychiatrist, before it is too late. ]


Listen, idiot. You are a Islamist, and therefore by definition a pedophile-follower. You are the lowest of the low, an idiot amongst all idiots. You and your kind have been stupid enough to have been hoodwinked by a sex-maniac ``prophet`` who married 12 times, and was so depraved that he lusted after a little child of six when he was a man of 53 years with grey pubic hair. Have you ever seen a little child that is 6 years old?

The cunning hypocrite forbade his own son-in-law from marrying twice. After he died, his son-in-law took his revenge - he went on a marriage spree.

If you knew how much contempt I have for people like you, you probably would not believe it, brainwashed as you numbskulls are.

Your prophet married his own stepson`s wife, after seeing her naked (to consolidate the spread of Islam). He married many where Islamists cannot say that he was only ``consolidating his empire``. He was a sex-crazed maniac. He raped, and made it okay to rape, war booty women.

How much lower can you go. It is amazing that your kind has the guts to stand up and talk to others.

Keep your opinions about me to yourself, dickhead, if you cannot talk on point.

Krishna-xyz,

You pathetic bloody moron,

You cannot enter into a rational debate with any person before first having complete details about his name, sex, caste creed, and similar details for the person`s friends and relatives.

This strong insistence on things other than the contents of a post exposes you as an opinionated bigot totally incapable of reasoning with logic.

If you need every interactors CV (as well as that of their friends and relatives) before you can interact with them, you probably need to have your head examined.

Run along, consult a psychiatrist, before it is too late.

Re: # 256
Nahin bhai , told you they won`t have anything to do with me. -) It`s really sad.

Re: # 255

You actually HAVE answered a whole bunch of personal questions. So I don`t see why you cannot answer THIS ONE directly.

Give me a direct yes or no. Are you romantically involved with a Muslim woman?

Re: # 253

Dear abcd
Please do refrain from personal questions. They are unbecoming and do not deserve an answer. On the behalf of Muslim women though, they will not associate with maccacas like me. -))

#252 by sadna

[Actions speak louder than mere assertions. If they did want constitutional democracy, they would have taken the lead in prosecuting rioters in Mumbai and Gujarat. They did not. For many Muslims affected by the violence, there is not much practical difference between jihadis and violent members shielded by these organisations. ]

EVERY political party in the Indian subcontinent has some goondas in their cadre. There are NO exceptions to this rule. What I was referring to is their stated policy. As opposed to the stated policies of the jehadis of world domination.

Also, while I have stated this repeatedly that NO ONE has any excuse for even touching an innocent person, and EVERY person guilty in the Gujarat riots should be hanged - even Modi, if it can be proved in court, these animals were provoked by the Muslims themselves, by burning alive dozens of their party members - men, women and children - whereas the jehadis need no provocation.



[Where did I say your #230 was a personal attack? The personal attacks were in your subsequent posts. ]

I do not believe in personal attacks, unless it is to counter personal attacks.

Tell me which one was a personal attack.

Here`s a prediction - you`ll lose this argument.


[Well, if you had been honest enough to answer like you demand from others, you would also have to say whether you think your answer applies to a BJP-ruled Gujarat also.]

What the heck you are talking about? WHAT answer applies to Gujarat?


[As I said, for Muslims who lost 10-20 members of their families while they watched, there isn`t much difference between jihadis and communal rioters claiming allegiance to Hindutva organisations. To hold on to the moral upper ground they keep claiming over others, the Hindutva organisations who keep parroting Vasudeva kutumbakam should have shown more interest in helping Muslim victims. They showed none. For their victims there is no difference between their heartlessness and that of those who train and fund jihadis. ]

There is no difference between killers - like those Congress Party workers that butchered Sikhs around the country when Indira Gahdhi was killed, and the garden variety jehadi. But there is a BIG difference between the Congress Party and the Taleban. And between the Hindutva-vadis and the Taleban.

Why don`t you do this. If are so honest in your convictions, list out incidents involving the Hindutva-vadis and then I`ll list out incidents involving the jehadis. Then we can compare and contrast.

Here`s another prediction - you`ll cop out like the rest of your kin.

#251 by swarrier

[You should never let your inadequacies dictate your fantasies. You should rise above them.

You can dislike my opinions, but I beg of you please don`t waste time on sham psychoanalysis. ]


Okay. You got me. My arguments are completely nonsensical and puerile.

Now that that is out of the way, why don`t you answer my question. I`ll repeat it for you here.

Are you romantically involved with a Muslim woman?

I`ll be looking forward to your answer.

krishna_abcd#249

You said in #230
``The Shiv Sena or the Bajrang Dal want constitutional democracy. ``

Actions speak louder than mere assertions. If they did want constitutional democracy, they would have taken the lead in prosecuting rioters in Mumbai and Gujarat. They did not. For many Muslims affected by the violence, there is not much practical difference between jihadis and violent members shielded by these organisations.

``And I listed those differences in my post #230.

WHY is that a personal attack?``

Where did I say your #230 was a personal attack? The personal attacks were in your subsequent posts.

``How would I know whether the government is involved? Which state? Where? How is this relevant to this discussion? ``

Well, if you had been honest enough to answer like you demand from others, you would also have to say whether you think your answer applies to a BJP-ruled Gujarat also. As I said, for Muslims who lost 10-20 members of their families while they watched, there isn`t much difference between jihadis and communal rioters claiming allegiance to Hindutva organisations. To hold on to the moral upper ground they keep claiming over others, the Hindutva organisations who keep parroting Vasudeva kutumbakam should have shown more interest in helping Muslim victims. They showed none. For their victims there is no difference between their heartlessness and that of those who train and fund jihadis.

Re: # 247 and various others from abcd
Dear abcd

You should never let your inadequacies dictate your fantasies. You should rise above them.

You can dislike my opinions, but I beg of you please don`t waste time on sham psychoanalysis.

Leave DM out of your silly arguments.

Now again run away and play with your toys, or give us your rebuttal/agreement with the learned professor`s article on the prevaricating general in his labyrinth.

Dictators will do anyyhing needed to cling on to power so long as they can.They know that
they can remain in power;otherwise there is no future for them.Dr.Hoodbhoy is quite right
in what he has recounted about the seven years that the General has been in power.
In countries like Pakistan such coup-makers attain power & remain in it wih the help,assistance and active help from the most powerful country(s) in this world.
ONE WHO RIDES A LION CANNOT DARE TO GET OFF ITS BACK.
THE ONLY PLACE HE CAN EXPECT TO FALL INTO IS THE LION`S BELLY.

#248 by sadna


[1. In your world is anyone allowed to criticise Hindutva and Hindutva vadis ever ? ]

Of course, anyone is allowed to criticize anyone in a free society.


[2. Can you explain why are you attacking someone personally for criticising Hindutva organisations? In a free country, unless they are fascists, how can any party like BJP or `cultural organisation` like VHP/Bajrang Dal demand not to be criticised by the public for their actions which affect the public? ]


This is how it started. In post#225, he said the following:

``Frankly I don`t see any difference between the Islamist idiots in Pakistan or and the Vanar Sena and the Bajrang Dal cretins.

I don`t see why we should choose to like either of these cretins. Our punks are no better than their punks. ``

I simply made the point that there are LOTS of differences.

And I listed those differences in my post #230.

WHY is that a personal attack?


[If they don`t want to be criticised, the only way is these Hindutva parties quit public life - they should stop asking for our votes, and seeking to represent us in elected office and become private organisations. Please advise them to do so instead of attacking people for using their fundamental right of political opinion about Hindutva parties. ]

I don`t know if they do or do not want to be criticized. So this part is irrelevent to this discussion.



[3. When riots take place for two months after a communal incident in a state ruled by a nonBJP party for the last 5-10 years, is the nonBJP government of that state to be held accountable or the nonBJP government is totally innocent?]

How would I know whether the governement is involved? Which state? Where? How is this relevant to this discussion?

krishna_abcd
Just a few questions if you can answer.
1. In your world is anyone allowed to criticise Hindutva and Hindutva vadis ever ?

2. Can you explain why are you attacking someone personally for criticising Hindutva organisations? In a free country, unless they are fascists, how can any party like BJP or `cultural organisation` like VHP/Bajrang Dal demand not to be criticised by the public for their actions which affect the public?

If they don`t want to be criticised, the only way is these Hindutva parties quit public life - they should stop asking for our votes, and seeking to represent us in elected office and become private organisations. Please advise them to do so instead of attacking people for using their fundamental right of political opinion about Hindutva parties.


3. When riots take place for two months after a communal incident in a state ruled by a nonBJP party for the last 5-10 years, is the nonBJP government of that state to be held accountable or the nonBJP government is totally innocent?

#245 by swarrier

[I am a Hindu Kshatriya/Brahmin mix.]

So you were lying when you said ``The caste I belong to, its traditional occupaton was fighting``. You belong just AS MUCH to the Brahmin caste as you do to the Kshatriya caste. In fact, your father is probably Brahmin, because I think that Warrier is a Brahmin last name. That should make you officially of the brahmin caste.

Okay...

[Yes I have Muslim friends. I am proud of that. Perhaps that is something that a particularly thick individual like you will not understand. ]

Now we are getting somewhere. See, that was not too difficut, was it? All right, if we have to do this in increments, so be it. Next question: are you ROMANTICALLY involved with a Muslim woman?

Go ahead, you can do it....Out with it....

[You need to harp on what religion caste background you belong to rather than being an individual in your own right. ]

Yes, yes, of course. I am un-enlighened. :)

[Your statements and arguments are puerile and not even worth considering. ]

Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

[I state my opinion as I choose. ]

That`s ADMIRABLE! :) Very good.

[Now run away and play with your toy soldiers and tin tigers. ]

See, whenever someone uses his half-Kshatriya background to PROVE that that MEANS that Hinduism is a violent religion, you KNOW that there has to be the penis involved. The NEED to show Hinduism as being JUST as violent as Islam has to stem from some urgent compulsion. With non-Muslim guys, it`s almost always the penis. Women are usually less willing to compromise their integrity.

Look at Dost-Mitter. Trying to analyze the highly intellectual and deep inner meanings of the word ``Masjid`` AFTER following his penis and ``converting``, instead of doing the complicated research beforehand.

Ref HD #242

[Now that mushy, and everyone else,has accepted the reality of pakistan`s kargill intrusion, what happens to the downing case of the `atlantique` plane it registered at the international court, asking india for compensation???]

Pakistan is up the proverbial creek without a paddle in that instance.

India refused to accept the ICJ`s jurisdiction and the ICJ declined to hear Pakistan`s complaint.

Back in 1965 the Pakistan Air Force shot down a Cessna carrying the then Chief Minister of Gujarat well inside Indian territory.

``The Atlantique`` was just payback for that.

Re: # 244
abcd
I am a Hindu Kshatriya/Brahmin mix. Yes I have Muslim friends. I am proud of that. Perhaps that is something that a particularly thick individual like you will not understand.
You need to harp on what religion caste background you belong to rather than being an individual in your own right.
Your statements and arguments are puerile and not even worth considering.
I state my opinion as I choose.
Now run away and play with your toy soldiers and tin tigers.

Re: #240 by swarrier

And another thing I forgot to mention. Whenever there is this kind of passion - as your passion against the Hindutva-vadis, it has to be personal. Now if you personally have not been affected by them (if you have been, you should have mentioned where and how), then I strongly suspect that the penis is involved.

Once people start thinking with the penis, all rational thought goes out the window (behold the Islamists).

Are you close to a Muslim?

dear Pervez (wot`s in a name?)
a very clear analytical correct article. though is it; where are pakistani scientist`s inventions (if any) to go? and who will drive off with them, in their truck, when they are in power?......that makes you write and focus so intently on political matters!! scientist or politician? well I never!!!!!

Now that mushy, and everyone else,has accepted the reality of pakistan`s kargill intrusion, what happens to the downing case of the `atlantique` plane it registered at the international court, asking india for compensation???

#240 by swarrier

[My name is Sadanand Warrier. Simple. ]

It would be simpler if you stopped trying to avoid the question.

I did not ask for your name. I asked for your background. Religion, caste etc. (whether it is immaterial or not).


[You have interesting arguments.]

Interesting or not, you obviously have no answers for them.


[You read many things into my posts that I cannot myself.]

You said :

``Hinduism is not a peaceful religion. The caste I belong to, its traditional occupaton was fighting.``

This is a supremely asinine statement. The PROOF that Hinduism is not peaceful is that YOUR caste used to be warriers by occupation!

What an idiotic argument!


[I am sorry I sound obfuscatory.]

Sorry doesn`t cut it. You avoided giving a direct answer to what allegedly the Hindutva-vadis are coercing the general population to do.

What you are, is a hypocrite. You don`t even have the self-respec to admit that you have no logical argument.



[Perhaps you need somebody of your intelligence to talk with.]

I said that already. That this is our last argument. But you tried to beat around the bush and then leave when cornered.


[I unfortunately cannot understand anything other than you hate Muslims.]


I can understand just fine that you hate Hindus.


[Sadanand Warrier (just in case you missed it the first time as you seem to have in our earlier discussion)]


I think YOU are the one that is PRETENDING to have missed the fact that I am NOT interested in your full name, but in your religion, caste etc.

Re: # 239

My name is Sadanand Warrier. Simple.

You have interesting arguments. You read many things into my posts that I cannot myself. I am sorry I sound obfuscatory. Perhaps you need somebody of your intelligence to talk with. I unfortunately cannot understand anything other than you hate Muslims. So be it.

Ta

Sadanand Warrier (just in case you missed it the first time as you seem to have in our earlier discussion)

#238 by swarrier

[Okay long and last post. ]

I am not surprised. Obfuscate and leave.

[Let us use the word coercion, not acceptance or adoption.]

Heh heh heh. Nice try. Coerce other Hindus to do WHAT?

1) Accept them for what they are? or

2) Coerce them to adopt their brand of Hinduism?

Obfuscation won`t do, I`m afraid.


[In my opinion they want to dictate beliefs. In that they are no different from Wahabi fundamentalists. Where they differ is that they do not wish to kill other Hindus for their beliefs. Frankly I don`t think even the Graham Staines imbroglio was supported by the larger portion of the Bajrang Dal. However any coercion is not a correct step. ]

Neither is obfuscation. Tell me what exactly you mean above.


[You`ve been asking me this question from the reservation boards. I do not think it is important to the discussion. I am not Christian or SC/ST or Dalit. ]

Okay, what is your problem telling me then? Are you muslim? Are you close to someone who is Muslim?

Whether you are Muslim or not, I`d still like to know your background. Why would you be reluctant in telling me? I don`t know your name.

I suspect there is a good reason you don`t want to tell me.


[You can apply the same reasoning to uneducated Muslims and I am not a Congress supporter.]

However you have the penchant to single out the Hindutva-vadis as miscreants.


[Why, we are talking about things that could happen. Hinduism is not a peaceful religion. The caste I belong to, its traditional occupaton was fighting. That is what we did for centuries before the British made it illegal for us to carry our weapons. ]

You are a Muslim who is a ex-kshatriya, maybe? Or a Rajput?

Yes, they used to fight as a profession. But so does any army in any country today. And one BIG difference with Muslims - they NEVER killed civilians.

And also, this has nothing to do with Hinduism. What kind of moronic logic is this - that this proves Hinduism is not peaceful? After this argument, I`m never going to argue with you again. What an idiotic statement!


[Yes partially. The state of Emergency can still be declared within the bounds of the constitution I suppose. ]

Well, then don`t just single out the Shiv Sena. Killing Sikhs is far worse than detroying Valentine-card carrying stores. Whenever people exhibit this kind of partial vison, they have an underlying agenda.


[You are wrong here. The Congress (under VP Naik) encouraged the creation of the Shiv Sena to neutralise the trade unions, lead by Datta Samant our very own George Fernandes etc. The anti South Indian agitation came later. But in any case your argument that it was created as a response to Islamist thugs is wrong.]

It was not CREATED for that purpose. But is SURVIVES because of this. That does not change my argument in any way. My point was to show that the existence of these anti-Islamic parties (supported by their followers) depends on the public reaction against the Islamist thugs.

In other words, it`s anti-Islamic agenda is REACTIONARY, not PROACTIVE like your Wahabi extremists.


[The Shiv Sena is nothing but a party of opportunists. When the Shiv Sena first started his own folks the CKP`s did not want to have anything to do with him. ]

Who cares? This has nothing to do with this discussion.


[They would have reinvented themselves as something else. An anti congress stance would have been good enough. Thackeray is a very intelligent man. ]

This is irrelevent to the discussion.


[I thought you were the one who was the critic. I was merely talking to the University of Oklahama 1999. ]

No. That is not true. You WERE criticizing the Hindutva-vadis.



[So whose fault is it? That we could not keep a lid on Kashmir? That we rigged elections? That we let them have things when the rest of India was under rationing for sugar, kerosene etc? That we gave them more privileges? That we let the Pandits be chased away? That we are letting the army do the work of a civilian police force? That we let a neighbouring country stoke the fires,which they will anyway?
You think our politicians are brave. Why did we let people like Masood Azhar, Mushtaq Zargar live to be exchanged for IC-814? Why did we not kill them instead of innocent Muslims in Gujarat? I don`t believe in any trials for non-Indians caught in Indian territory illegally. Execute them if you have proof of their involvement in anti national activities. ]

It is the fault of the lefty JNU jholawala types, of Islamic apologists like yourself, and the cowlike nature of the Hindus.

But this is taking us AWAY from our debate. YOU SAID that we just need to ``like`` the ``other`` more. And I SAID that that is nonsense. Because a lot of people died not beacuse we don`t ``like`` the ``other``.


[Sure, it is inaction that has resulted in deaths. The problem is not with all Muslims. The problem is with some of them who want their views imposed on all people. They are the one`s to be stopped. ]

No, it is INCUMBENT UPON all Muslims, including yourself, to actively fight this thing. Because silence means consent. And silent support - by providing logistical support and social support, is unconscionable.

Somehow you guys get worked up whenever any Muslim dies anywhere in the world, but Muslim terrorists killing by the thousands - nah, not a peep. You guys are part of the problem.

Re: # 237
Okay long and last post.

[Accepted, or adopted? Which one do you mean? There`s a BIG difference between the two.]

Let us use the word coercion, not acceptance or adoption. In my opinion they want to dictate beliefs. In that they are no different from Wahabi fundamentalists. Where they differ is that they do not wish to kill other Hindus for their beliefs. Frankly I don`t think even the Graham Staines imbroglio was supported by the larger portion of the Bajrang Dal. However any coercion is not a correct step.



[This does not make them any different factually from a Wahabi fundamentalist.]

Really? Ok, we can talk about this AFTER you answer the question above.]

See my statement above.


[[That Hinduism is too plural to accept that rubbish is the only reason why they may not succeed. But it is a dangerous path to tread. People can be coerced or seduced by less.]]

[What`s your background, I wonder. While I know that the caste you were born into is immaterial as far as evaluating you as a human being is concerned, I was wondering whether you belong to the SC/ST or Dalit sections of society. Or are you a Christian?

I would appreciate it very much if you would tell me.]

You`ve been asking me this question from the reservation boards. I do not think it is important to the discussion. I am not Christian or SC/ST or Dalit.


[Vandalising shops on Valentine`s day isn`t exactly a good thing.

No. But killing Sikhs when Indira died isn`t a good thing either. Our country is poor, with a lot of uneducated people. Things are not perfect in ANY political party.]

You can apply the same reasoning to uneducated Muslims and I am not a Congress supporter.


[Luckily Jihad (as defined by fundamentalists) will not find a calling amongst all Hindus. We do not all follow the same ideals, thank goodness. ]

Would you be so kind as to provide some references regarding this ``jihad`` amongst the Hindu fundamentalists?]

Why, we are talking about things that could happen. Hinduism is not a peaceful religion. The caste I belong to, its traditional occupaton was fighting. That is what we did for centuries before the British made it illegal for us to carry our weapons.


[As for constitutional democracy, then the Bajrang Dal must still respect the law, lip service will not do.

You mean, like no killing sikhs, or no declaring of Emergency - things like that?]

Yes partially. The state of Emergency can still be declared within the bounds of the constitution I suppose.



[Bal Thackeray created the Shiv Sena to give voice to the anti-immigrant feeling amongst Marathis. But this was becoming less popular, so he utilized the anti-Pakistan, anti-National and anti-Mulsim sentiments.]

You are wrong here. The Congress (under VP Naik) encouraged the creation of the Shiv Sena to neutralise the trade unions, lead by Datta Samant our very own George Fernandes etc. The anti South Indian agitation came later. But in any case your argument that it was created as a response to Islamist thugs is wrong. The Shiv Sena is nothing but a party of opportunists. When the Shiv Sena first started his own folks the CKP`s did not want to have anything to do with him.


[No political party exists in a vacuum. Without anger against Islamic thugs, the Shiv Sena would have died out long ago.]

They would have reinvented themselves as something else. An anti congress stance would have been good enough. Thackeray is a very intelligent man.




[I am not for appeasement. But if you`ve got to do things you must do it right. I don`t have any solution to offer.

Well until you have one, don`t criticize others.]

I thought you were the one who was the critic. I was merely talking to the University of Oklahama 1999.



[But if we stop disliking each other that may be a step in the right direction.

I don`t think 45,000 hindus have died in Kashmir, and many thousands of Pandits have been forced to flee their homeland because they were ``disliking`` the ``other``.]

So whose fault is it? That we could not keep a lid on Kashmir? That we rigged elections? That we let them have things when the rest of India was under rationing for sugar, kerosene etc? That we gave them more privileges? That we let the Pandits be chased away? That we are letting the army do the work of a civilian police force? That we let a neighbouring country stoke the fires,which they will anyway?
You think our politicians are brave. Why did we let people like Masood Azhar, Mushtaq Zargar live to be exchanged for IC-814? Why did we not kill them instead of innocent Muslims in Gujarat? I don`t believe in any trials for non-Indians caught in Indian territory illegally. Execute them if you have proof of their involvement in anti national activities.


[Otherwise ``our hoods are fine and their hoods are bad`` will be the spiel on both sides.

It is easy to sermonize. But this kind of inaction has resulted in thousands of deaths. The problem is not 50-50. Muslims are fighting every other community in every country in the world. Muslims are the common denominator. THEY are the problem.

And JNU jholawalas.]

Sure, it is inaction that has resulted in deaths. The problem is not with all Muslims. The problem is with some of them who want their views imposed on all people. They are the one`s to be stopped.

#236 by swarrier

[Even if the Bajrang Dal does not want Hinduism to rule the world they want their brand of Hinduism to be accepted by all.]

Accepted, or adopted? Which one do you mean? There`s a BIG difference between the two.


[This does not make them any different factually from a Wahabi fundamentalist.]

Really? Ok, we can talk about this AFTER you answer the question above.


[That Hinduism is too plural to accept that rubbish is the only reason why they may not succeed. But it is a dangerous path to tread. People can be coerced or seduced by less.]

What`s your background, I wonder. While I know that the caste you were born into is immaterial as far as evaluating you as a human being is concerned, I was wondering whether you belong to the SC/ST or Dalit sections of society. Or are you a Christian?

I would appreciate it very much if you would tell me.


[Vandalising shops on Valentine`s day isn`t exactly a good thing. ]

No. But killing Sikhs when Indira died isn`t a good thing either. Our country is poor, with a lot of uneducated people. Things are not perfect in ANY political party.


[Luckily Jihad (as defined by fundamentalists) will not find a calling amongst all Hindus. We do not all follow the same ideals, thank goodness. ]

Would you be so kind as to provide some references regarding this ``jihad`` amongst the Hindu fundamentalists?


[As for constitutional democracy, then the Bajrang Dal must still respect the law, lip service will not do. ]

You mean, like no killing sikhs, or no declaring of Emergency - things like that?


[The Shiv Sena was not created as a response against Islamic thugs. It was created by the Congress to contain the trade unions in Bombay. Then they became anti South Indian and then donned the Hindutva mantle. ]

Bal Thackeray created the Shiv Sena to give voice to the anti-immigrant feeling amongst Marathis. But this was becoming less popular, so he utilized the anti-Pakistan, anti-National and anti-Mulsim sentiments.

No political party exists in a vacuum. Without anger against Islamic thugs, the Shiv Sena would have died out long ago.



[I am not for appeasement. But if you`ve got to do things you must do it right. I don`t have any solution to offer.]

Well until you have one, don`t criticize others.


[But if we stop disliking each other that may be a step in the right direction.]

I don`t think 45,000 hindus have died in Kashmir, and many thousands of Pandits have been forced to flee their homeland because they were ``disliking`` the ``other``.


[Otherwise ``our hoods are fine and their hoods are bad`` will be the spiel on both sides.]

It is easy to sermonize. But this kind of inaction has resulted in thousands of deaths. The problem is not 50-50. Muslims are fighting every other community in every country in the world. Muslims are the common denominator. THEY are the problem.

And JNU jholawalas.

Re: # 230
Krishna

Even if the Bajrang Dal does not want Hinduism to rule the world they want their brand of Hinduism to be accepted by all. This does not make them any different factually from a Wahabi fundamentalist. That Hinduism is too plural to accept that rubbish is the only reason why they may not succeed. But it is a dangerous path to tread. People can be coerced or seduced by less. Vandalising shops on Valentine`s day isn`t exactly a good thing.

Luckily Jihad (as defined by fundamentalists) will not find a calling amongst all Hindus. We do not all follow the same ideals, thank goodness.

As for constitutional democracy, then the Bajrang Dal must still respect the law, lip service will not do.

The Shiv Sena was not created as a response against Islamic thugs. It was created by the Congress to contain the trade unions in Bombay. Then they became anti South Indian and then donned the Hindutva mantle.

I am not for appeasement. But if you`ve got to do things you must do it right. I don`t have any solution to offer. But if we stop disliking each other that may be a step in the right direction. Otherwise ``our hoods are fine and their hoods are bad`` will be the spiel on both sides.

here is the amnesty international press release after the reopening of the cases

link

Amnesty International also points out that the Supreme Court has ordered the Gujarat police to reopen a large number of cases relating to the communal violence which the police had earlier declared as closed. As per the ruling, as many as 1,594 cases have been reopened and action has been taken against 41 police officials for their alleged role in the communal violence. The Supreme Court has asked the Gujarat police to file quarterly reports on the progress of the investigations.

#231

I essentially agree. I would modify with following changes:

1. People like Teesta Seetalvad played a very prominent role to get a retrial and she deserves great praise for persisting even when Zahira Shaikh stabbed her in the back.
2. Not one, but 2 cases are the ``showpiece`` cases transferred to special courts in Maharastra: Best Bakery and the Bilkis Bano case, but the supreme court has also forced reopening of several hundred cases in Gujarat and hopefully these cases will thoroughy re-investigated.
3. The CBI is investigating the Bilkis Bano case, this is a first for riot cases in India. The doctors and policemen who tried to cover up the case have also been charge sheeted.

See, you have to compare to previous riots like Delhi `83, Baghalpur riots etc and notice that with an activist press and judiciary things can be better this time around. What is important is for the press and public to not lose interest and force genuine investigation and trials for the several hundred cases reopened in Gujarat, because we know if public interest drifts local politicians will try to hush up the cases again.

Re: # 223

Respected Bongdongs,

Sequence of events is like this :

1. Horrible crime against Muslims in India. Hundreds of case registered.
2. Long drawn out Legal Battle in courts, intimidation of witnesses etc.
3. Clear acquittal of all accused by the courts.
4. International outcry and great turmoil within the local muslim votebanks.
5. Some cases specially highlighted by media.
5. Setting up of special court for trying one case only. Retrial transferred.
6. Guilty verdict obtained. Special court wound up.
7. Cases highlighted by media settled to appease vote bank and international outcry.
8. Business as usual.

But even this is many many times better than the Pakistan system of justice for women and minorities.

If Islamic revolutionary government takes over Pakistan why would India attack Pakistan and do America`s dirty job of killing the Jihadi monster that CIA created to fight socialism and communism?

Why would India be so stupid? It would let Pakistan self-destruct or let US do its own dirty job. Unless if there is broad consensus. In that case it is no more only only US`s dirty job, it is allied powers` dirty job. India will happily participate in a broder effort.

Sau Baat Ki Ek Baat ... Islam as you and I knew is going. Aakhri Saans Hai Islam Ki. Ab Marne Ko Taiyyar Hai. Either it reforms, or it goes.

Re: # 223

Respected Bongdongs,

Sequence of events is like this :

1. Horrible crime against Muslims in India. Hundreds of case registered.
2. Long drawn out Legal Battle in courts, intimidation of witnesses etc.
3. Clear acquittal of all accused by the courts.
4. International outcry and great turmoil within the local muslim votebanks.
5. Some cases specially highlighted by media.
5. Setting up of special court for trying one case only. Retrial transferred.
6. Guilty verdict obtained. Special court wound up.
7. Cases highlighted by media settled to appease vote bank and international outcry.
8. Business as usual.

But even this is many many times better than the Pakistan system of justice for women and minorities.

#225 by swarrier

[Frankly I don`t see any difference between the Islamist idiots in Pakistan or and the Vanar Sena and the Bajrang Dal cretins.

I don`t see why we should choose to like either of these cretins. Our punks are no better than their punks. ]

Okay, let`s talk about this.

Frankly, I see MANY differences. Lets see....

1) Islamist idiots in Pakistan believe that Islam should rule the world.

The Shiv Sena or the Bajrang Dal do not think Hinduism should rule the world.

2) Islamist idiots are for world Jehad.

The Shiv Sena or the Bajrang Dal are not.

3) Islamist idiots want to convert everybody to their religion.

The Shiv Sena or the Bajrang Dal do not.

4) Islamist idiots want sharia imposed on society (in a recent poll, according to BBCNews, 40% of UK Muslims said they wanted Sharia law).

The Shiv Sena or the Bajrang Dal want constitutional democracy.

5) The Shiv Sena or the Bajrang Dal was created as a response to Islamist thugs that have raped mother India for centuries.

The Islamist idiots have raped mother India for centuries.

The list is very long.

While I feel that ANYONE (yes, this includes everybody!) who dares to touch another innocent person should be tried to the fullest extent of the law, I also feel that there needs to be a strong right-wing coalition to defeat the coalition of the JNU jholawalas and the Islamist enemy in our midst.

The time for appeasement and votebank politics is over. If Hindus do to go right wing now, they will suffer untold miseries in the future. Look at Europe. The right is resurgent everywhere in Europe. I think they recognize the cancer in their midst.

It`s time for radical surgery.

Re: # 223

Respected Bongdongs,

Sequence of events is like this :

#222 by okhla99


[We are not talking routine here.

The Indian system does not have provision for routine shifting of cases. In the Best Bakery case, a special court was set up to convict the accused, only one case was transferred to it and the desired conviction obtained. The court was wound up. ]


Why is the Best Bakery case a case of ``routine shifting``?

I am at a loss here.

We will delve into what provison the Indian system has or does not have, after we get your response on this.


With warm regards,

e: # 225
Respected Swarrier,

My sentiments exactly.

Our punks are as stupid, sometimes more so, than yours. The politicians/ bureaucracy in both countries are equally corrupt. The police and lower judiciary is also equally corrupt in both countries. However, I will grant that at higher levels, the Indian political and judicial sysytems are more mature and evolved than in Pakistan. So is the average quality of judges and PM/Prez.

The Hindu extremists who find every thing wrong with Islam and Pakistan try to gloss over their own failures and shortcomings. The extreme Jihadi punks are out to hurt every thing Indian or every thing non-muslim in Pakistan.


There are a number of common problems (other than illiteracy/poverty/bijli/paani) which plague both countries. We should look for a solution to these problems, if not together then separately.

We can continue to be belligewrent and threaten each other as long as we wish, but for Pak and Ind ,mutual salvation lies only in mutual help and understanding.

The sooner we realise this, the better.

#211 by okhla99
``Respected Bongdongs,

WHY WAS THE RETRIAL SHIFTED TO MAHARASHTRA ????? Under some ``specially enacted`` provision of Indian Law ??? How can jurisdiction be changed like this ??? Is your legal system a joke ????
..............................
You blody foool , you just don`t understand... do you????

Well! well!! When one looses the argument, name calling starts.

Re: # 221
[Yes, Hinduism and Islam are very similar. As are the Hindus of India and the Taliban of the NWFP, or Hindus and any of the Islamists of Pakiland.

Well said]

Frankly I don`t see any difference between the Islamist idiots in Pakistan or and the Vanar Sena and the Bajrang Dal cretins.

I don`t see why we should choose to like either of these cretins. Our punks are no better than their punks.

Okhla,

U are resorting to sweeping generalisations here. I dont know what u know abt law or what are ur motivations in resorting to this fracas.

Indian public, NGOs and judiciary were ready to help in Gujarat but ur baby Zaheera was corrupt like anybody and happy with the money she got from saffron bodies. I presume that u are shedding crocodile tears here for Indian Muslims and taking the communal angle on this issue. Btw, what ur locus standi on Gujarat? Are u arguing coz it`s a human rights issue or it’s coz the overall losers are Muslims in Gujarat?

I wud be much forthcoming if u be more open with ur name and identity. I dont prefer shadow boxing. Willy-nilly u are forcing us to argue in favour of this Hindu-Muslim angle debate.

#222
In the Best Bakery case, a special court was set up to convict the accused, only one case was transferred to it and the desired conviction obtained

Again that is factually incorrect, more than one case has been transferred to Mahrashtra. For instance, most prominent is the Bilkis Bano case:

http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/jan/13bilkis.htm

``A special court in Mumbai has cleared the decks for the commencement of trial in the case of gang rape of Bilkis Bano and massacre of members of the minority community in Gujarat.

The court on Thursday framed charges against the accused for their alleged complicity in the attack on a group of 17 members of the minority community on March 3, 2002, in the aftermath of the Godhra riots.

The Supreme Court had transferred the trial of the case from Gujarat to Maharashtra on August six last year, following the fear expressed by Bilkis Bano that `the witnesses and the Central Bureau of Investigation, which is probing the case, would come under harm in Gujarat`.``

Re: # 219

respected Mr Krishna--xyz

We are not talking routine here.

The Indian system does not have provision for routine shifting of cases. In the Best Bakery case, a special court was set up to convict the accused, only one case was transferred to it and the desired conviction obtained. The court was wound up.

Does this happen in any other country ??????

#218 by swarrier

[We are too similar though we pretend to be different.]

Yes, Hinduism and Islam are very similar. As are the Hindus of India and the Taliban of the NWFP, or Hindus and any of the Islamists of Pakiland.

Well said.

Re: # 218

Respected Swarrier,

On this I agree with you One Hundred Percent.

#216 by okhla99

[As you have astutely observed, other legal systems like Europe and USA shift jurisdiction to a specially enacted court to hoodwink world opinion. ]

Exactly! Like hundreds of rape, murder cases etc. being shifted on a routine basis. And all of this, to ``hoodwink world opinion`` about whether Mr. Jones of Kansas is guilty or Mr. Smith of Arizona.

You represent to me the prototypical Paki/Islamic mind - informed, intelligent, unbiased, secular and peace-loving. The world needs more of your type, not less.

My kudos to you, Mr. Okhla.

Dear Okhla
Repeating myself, what happened in Gujarat is not a proud moment for any Indian and there is no defence for those atrocities. Justice in India still has a long way to go. I am afraid many more regrettable incidents will occur before it matures. But it will.

We agree that both countries have problems. Some shared, some different. So why bother pointing fingers.
Or is it because ..... Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.

We are too similar though we pretend to be different.

Re: # 215

Respected Swarrier,

What abt questions raised by Times of India in #208. Are they also figment of imagination?

All I am saying is that both countries have a litany of problems and need to set their houses in order.

Re: # 214
As you have astutely observed, other legal systems like Europe and USA shift jurisdiction to a specially enacted court to hoodwink world opinion. Only selective cases (window dressing) are transferred and these special courts are wound up as soon as the desired verdict is obtained.

It happens only in India...

Re: # 213
Actually you haven`t raised any questions in your query. They all seem to be statements. Some true some false, some figments of imagination.
We`ll try to fix our problems in time. In the meantime set your own house in order.

#211 by okhla99


[WHY WAS THE RETRIAL SHIFTED TO MAHARASHTRA ????? Under some ``specially enacted`` provision of Indian Law ??? How can jurisdiction be changed like this ???]

I am impressed by your obvious legal training and your fine legal mind.

As you so astutely observed, it is impossible that any proper legal system (e.g. Pakistan`s) could allow for jurisdiction to be changed. It is only allowed in improper legal systems like in the USA, Europe etc. on a daily basis.

As far as the Best Bakery case is concerned, this is only a clever strategy in the underlying plot to rid the world of pedophile-philes.

Chowk is very wise to allow for smart, well-read and rational interactors like you post on their website.

My best wishes...

Re: # 212
All the questions I have raised in # 211 are concrete questions.

But I have strong doubts that you would be able to answer any of those....

#211

my reply was to counter a factual inaccuracy in you statement that ``no one was convicted in the best bakery case (other than zhira sheikh)``.

If you want to discuss the larger issues of the failure of the police/judiciary in Gujarat thats a seperate issue. If you have anything concrete to say, I will be happy to respond.