Indian Muslims

majmudar #: ........thanks for the info.........the statistics you have mention map directly on to the statistics i have seen here in north american IT..........it`s strange........sikhs form such a small amount of the indian population as do christians.........yet i have worked with indian sikhs and christians, quite often, but never end up running into indian muslims.......

Romair,

(if i were to walk into the cs dept of an IIT, and lets say any one graduating class had 200 students.........how many would be indian muslims? .......would be interested in your objective and politically incorrect view.........)

To answer your question. In my batch in engineering (Delhi Univ.) of the total strength of 320, there were only two Muslims. At B-school (IIM-LKO), of the total strength of 120, there were again only two Muslims (1.7% against 15% pop.). Incidentally one of them was a Lucknow Shia and a Keralite Muslim- better educated communities among Muslims. But 2 Parsis (way out of proportion to their population) and about 4-5 Sikhs and Christians apiece (again ahead of their pop %). IMs have lagged behind, because of a number of factors including the fact that they are largely drawn from the lower classes but there is no (excessive at least) discrimination against minorities as such.

Regards

Re: # 457

Sadna:

What you talking is point system, which is blind of community. Ivy Leagues use this system here.

The UC system had to drop the quota system. It instead adopted a system that guarantees an admission and acceptance to all top 10% of students from all high schools. Irrespective of high schools location, be it E. Palo Alto, or in Palo Alto. I think this approach would work in India too.

The absence of other communities in IITs, AIIMs, IIMs or RECs should be viewed in greater perspective to find the root cause.

The feeding schools, and coaching colleges themselves have lower percentage of students of other communities. When the input is not there, how can you not sacrifice quality or create other problems to meet quota.

There is a very strong need to improve quality of primary, middle and secondary education into each community by the community. In about five years when graduates of the middle and secondary education start coming out, the gap will be shortened.

What Farzana says in her iLog about housing is a real dilemma. I know many Indians have faced it in the U.S. and England too.

Anil

anil #452
``People entered through Quota are marked and discriminated.``

In my experience, that`s true for jobs, but not necessarily for education. Children do need to be given equal opportunity/access to education and should not be penalised for their life situation in this regard. I have had class-fellows from backgrounds where they wouldn`t have turned up if it hadn`t been for the education quota but who went on to do just fine. The basic issue is that socioeconomic background should be the criteria.

The current constitutional position that if you are a Hindu ``backward`` community (including those who manage to strongarm some elected govt at some point of time to be declared backward), you are automatically in need of quotas and if you are not a Hindu ``backward`` community, the state couldn`t care less what your socioeconomic situation is, is just a very bad and mindless position and policy.

re: bulleya/romair # 453
“what is your objective opinion on where indian muslims are vis-a-vis indian hindus........not why, or how they ended up there.......or what they should do better........”

Indian Muslims are not as well of financially as Indian Hindus and the gap is growing.


I can repeat what I said in post #444
“Indian Muslim middle class is conspicuous by its absence. We have the Muslim elite and the Muslim poor. That explains the statistics you have presented. To move up in India you have to get educated. As soon as the Indian Muslim poor understand that they will start moving up in life.”


To add to that Indian Muslims don’t seem to gravitate to science and math. Most Indian Muslims peruse fine arts. If you looked at film, advertising, journalism professions you would see a lot of Indian Muslims.

Regards,

Faruk

re: bulleya/romair # 453
“what is your objective opinion on where indian muslims are vis-a-vis indian hindus........not why, or how they ended up there.......or what they should do better........”

Indian Muslims are not as well of financially as Indian Hindus and the gap is growing.


I can repeat what I said in post #444
“Indian Muslim middle class is conspicuous by its absence. We have the Muslim elite and the Muslim poor. That explains the statistics you have presented. To move up in India you have to get educated. As soon as the Indian Muslim poor understand that they will start moving up in life.”


To add to that Indian Muslims don’t seem to gravitate to science and math. Most Indian Muslims peruse fine arts. If you looked at film, advertising, journalism professions you would see a lot of Indian Muslims.

Regards,

Faruk

#453 by bulleya on November 16, 2006 1:47pm PT


........i used to help companies set up there software engineering depts


Oh so now it`s ``software engineering depts``...before it used to be helping CIO/VP types set up their IT departments...

I don`t know if this self-delusion is a move sideways or down...

faruk #: .........i am assuming you are an indian muslim...........hence someone who could comment on this subject, with authority (unlike the rest of us) as it affects you directly...........what is your objective opinion on where indian muslims are vis-a-vis indian hindus........not why, or how they ended up there.......or what they should do better........

.......but where exactly are they socially, politically, economically, etc............

........i can give you my take, which is as follows:......every statistic i see from india, indicates that indian muslims are at the bottom of the society and that the gap between them and indian hindus is increasing, not decreasing........leading, in my opinion, to the east pakistan/west pakistan situation of 60s, i.e. a country advnancing economically, with one large group being left out of the spoils of the progress..........

.......in my profession of IT, in north america, i have run into hundreds of indian hindus..........i must have worked closely over the past ten to fifteen years with well over one hundred indians on projects, on a day to day basis.........

........yet i have yet to work with one single indian mulsim in this field!...perhaps i could strech it to one, if that..........i have worked with many some indian sikhs, indian christians though............in addition, i have run into, in any capacity, perhaps five indian muslims in IT.............compare that to maybe three hundred or more indian hindus.......

........i used to help companies set up there software engineering depts.......i must have gone through countless resumes of indian hindus...... intereviewed tens and tens of them.......and hired a significant number...........i have yet to hire an indian muslim.......primarily because i cannot even recall seeing a resume!...........

.........i do run into and know quite a few south asian muslims in north american IT, but literally every single one is a pakistani........no indians or bangladeshis.........barring the odd guy from google or azim premji we hear about........

.........in addition, my comp sic and engineering dept in a us university, was filled with indian hindus.........half the comp sci faculty was indian hindus........and the number of indian hindu students in all engg and cs depts of the univ. must have been in the hundreds........once again, only two indian muslims...........while the number of pakistanis must have been between 50 to 150..........

.........so as a criteria, if i were to walk into the cs dept of an IIT, and lets say any one graduating class had 200 students.........how many would be indian muslims?

.......would be interested in your objective and politically incorrect view.........

Re: # 451

Sanda:

Kerala is unique in many sense. Its social indicators are that of the first world, but economic indicators are no where to match its social performance. Even in mid 60s when I got admission in to engineering college, the quota was being misused. There was a quota of ``2`` in the college for OBCs. I know both were misused. Whenever there is a shortage of resources (seats in engineering college in this case), there is room for misuse. System can be designed to treat everyone with doubt and made rigid that eventually it breaks, or treat everyone with respect, and treat the violators with the stern punishment. I prefer the latter.

People entered through Quota are marked and discriminated. I am not a proponent of Quota, but support building at grass root levels. That is why your suggestion of targetted recruitment.

Anil

anil #450
I have seen fixed quotas in education and state jobs actually work in Kerala, for Muslims and others. But in Kerala, if I am not mistaken, quotas have long been out of the realm of politics. This is unlike in other parts of India, where the subject of quotas makes for irresponsible divisive politics and populism-driven reservation policies. The groups which have more political muscle get themselves declared backward communities and confer on themselves bigger quotas regardless of any actual justification for it in their socioeconomic situation. For example, I heard that in Rajasthan the required entrance test rank for medical college admission in the reserved categories was higher than that in the general merit category.

But ruinous and divisive politics around non-performing quotas is not sufficient excuse for the Indian state to abdicate its responsibility to ensure equal opportunities for all and equal progress of all. That is why I suggest the state should begin to change the whole quota debate by affirming its responsibility through nonquota initiatives for the under-represented.

Re: # 418

Sadna:

The only other place separate electorate was tried was in Apartheid South Africa. We all know what happened with that experiment.

Your later suggestions on special drives to recruit police, and education are important suggestions. The trade ``weaving and fine crafting`` that exist in the community can be commercialized by the community to bring more profits into the hands of weavers and craft-persons.

I have personally seen the effect of the latter in transformation in Benares (silk weavers), Kanpur (shoe makers), and Moradabad (brassware). The current generation is very dynamic, religious and equally Indian. All these initiatives have been from within the community, and not achieved through any legislation. A few years ago when I met some of the entreprenuers who have done wonders especially in Kanpur and Moradabad, where they connected with the overseas buyers. Their grandfathers were just struggling, because middle-men were taking all the profits away.

Anil

PS: And I also support special recruitment drives(not fixed quotas) for underrepresented communities in state jobs, including police.

#447
I meant re #444 I support positive discrimination in education for underrepresented communities.

Faruk
Glad to hear your take.

Re #443 I support positive discrimination in education for underrepresented communities.

kedarnathji #420
Well said.

``Segregating is less in the interests of the minorities because a brute majority can always pass anything it wants and it need not care for the minority vote.``

Exactly.

VRV #437
Thanks.

Re : sadna # 418
Separate electorates is nothing but the desire by the Muslim elite exclusive right to abuse the Muslim poor nothing else.

Regards,

Faruk