Indian Muslims

#416 by arjun2

[Muslims in America, for the most part, aren`t hung up on the islamist cr@p]

You probably didn`t hear about Sami al-Arian, Shoebomber, CAIR`s vociferous protests on Pennsylvania Ave, and the Buffalo sleeper cells. Unlike India, Americans don`t use extremism of the few as a pretext for collective punishment.

This principle is exclusive to Israelis and Hindus of Northern India, in the contemporary world.

re: #422 harimau

[The latter has been Pakistan`s wet dream for 59 years and it ain`t going to happen. ]

Who wants to amputate a patient that`s dying from internal bleeding anyway??

re: #422 by harimau

[That is what you have been saying about Kashmir too. Doesn`t look like it is the reality.]

Funny that you say that, especially when just 4 months ago just 12 guys brought India`s financial center to a standstill. Now that wasn`t happening 10 years ago was it??

#417 by aslam644 on November 15, 2006 4:04pm PT


Indian Muslims are not organised.


Gee..never a shortage of participants when protesting Bush`s visit or policy towards Israel......very well organized there....

OTOH, when was the last time they protested against musharraf or the saudi king?

Ref arjun2 #410

[Indians in the UK are immigrants too..maybe the problem is with muslims?]

Actually, the problem is with Islam.

Dhiren Barot was born a Hindu. At age 20 he converted to Islam and chose the name Abu Musa al-Hindi. At age 34, al-Hindi was convicted of plotting to blow up financial centers such as the New York Stock Exchange and was sentenced to 40 years in prison.

Yep, Islam is the problem all right.

what is it with pakis and their incessant whining?... it never stops... whine about everything and people who have nothing to do with them... palestinians, chchens, arabs, bedouins... and now pakis have started whining about indian muslims?... come on, give us a break... :)...

At least indians muslims have a vote, you pakis even don`t have that... so why are you whining about their ``low`` representation?... shouldn`t you guys get some representation for yourselves in your own country which is ruled by a tinpot, before talking about anyboyd else?...

Ref by HisExcellency #414

[Separate electorates, special budgetary allocations or muslim majority districts are one solution.]

How about separate localities for Muslims to live in a la the Warsaw Ghetto?

[Genocide and a second partition of India are another solution.]

The latter has been Pakistan`s wet dream for 59 years and it ain`t going to happen.

[Either way, the status quo is not sustainable.]

That is what you have been saying about Kashmir too. Doesn`t look like it is the reality.

Ref aslam644 #417

[Academics say that rather like African Americans, Indian Muslims have become victims of history and discrimination.]

The minute you said ``academics``, I knew it would be someone from Jawaharlal Nehru University. If there is one place worse that Aligarh Muslim University, it is Jawaharlal Nehru University, the place that manufactures Indian history to suit the Congress`s needs.

[Some suggest that mimicking US policy on African Americans might help.

But, says Zoya Hassan, professor of political science at Delhi`s Jawaharlal Nehru University: ``Unlike African Americans Indian Muslims are not organised. They have not campaigned for their rights effectively....``]

Not true at all. Indian Muslims, specifically those in UP and Bihar, campaigned for and got Pakistan where Muslim rights are supreme. It is unfortunate that they thought that UP and Bihar would be included in Pakistan. The moral of the story is: People with no idea of how to read a map ought not to be demanding countries. In fact, they shouldn`t be allowed out on their own.

Zoya Hassan, now she wouldn`t be a Muslima by any chance, would she? Even if she is, she would be perfectly unbised, wouldn`t she?

[``..... Of course racism is easier to identify than an anti-Muslim bias, but African Americans were lifted by a policy of positive discrimination which could help here.``]

Exactly what was the positive discrimination faced by Hindus for 1000 years of Muslim rule? The Muslims should get paid back in that coin. The first step would be imposition of the jizya on Indian Muslims. The next would be periodic mass conversion drives to convert them from Islam. The third would be levelling of mosques and madrassas. The next would be carrying off their women and raising their children as Hindus. As regards the fifth, I think I shall refrain from suggesting buggery of prepubescent Muslim boys as retaliation because Hindus abhor buggery and sodomy.

#418 by sadna on November 15, 2006 4:20pm PT

Sadna excellent thoughts that I myself have concluded. Unfortunately, telling it to many of the subcontinental Muslims especially the Pakistanis is like ``bhains ke samne been bajana``. Pakis talking about an electoral system is like a seventh grade drop out talking about nuclear physics. They themselves have not been able to have a functioning constitution and democracy but preaching to others.

What these Jinnahites don`t realize is that this separate electorate system was part of a divide and rule. The proof is in the pudding that they themselves never had separate electorate. In Britain Catholics don`t get to vote only Catholics, Anglicans for Anglicans, etc. No other European democracy, US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan or any other major democracy I know does that either. The only one that tried this is Lebanon and we can see the consequences. Segregating is less in the interests of the minorities because a brute majority can always pass anything it wants and it need not care for the minority vote. Recently the macacca comment cost a senator his seat and has shifted the entire balance of power in the Senate.

#417 by aslam644 on November 15, 2006 4:04pm PT

Before barking thru your ass do you have statistics on how the Blacks are doing in the US? You would be more than shocked? More than 40% of the prison population is Black. Blacks are more likely to receive the death penalty than the Whites. There has been only one Black governor in history and that man Douglas Wilder was a light-skinned white. More than one-half of Black kids are born out of wedlock and grow up without a father. Take a tour of banks, hospitals and other professional institutions and see the percentage of Blacks with your own eyes.

The difference is that Blacks were genuinely discriminated in the US. Slavery ended only 140 years ago but the Jim Crowe laws of separate but equal persisted for another one hundred years. Separate but equal was considered normal. Unlike the Muslims who ruled India for 500 years. The moment their power started getting diluted and they had to share it with others they demanded a separate nation for themselves and eventually got themselves not one but two nations. Unlike the Blacks who still had to live in the same White-dominated society and work things out. Yes, Blacks need to do more to improve themselves and are partly to blame for their current sorry state but they have been historically wronged a lot. Unlike the Muslims of the subcontinent who are just mentally lazy and minds polluted with jehad and other nonsense.

#415
Yeah of course I mean Indian Hindus. Indian Muslim politics since 1900s (since Lord Curzon first divided Bengal for precisely this reason-creating Muslim majority regions) has been all about separate electorates and creating more Muslim majority regions to offset the Hindu majority.

What actually happened with separate electorates was that Muslims became an isolated permanent minority with noone else having a stake in their wellbeing. Even with specially demarcated regions, being an overall minority Muslims could not prevail over the size of the Hindu majority - such separatism only contributed to their increasing isolation which made them more and more powerless over the Hindu majority.

All these 100 odd years Hindus were told ad nauseum how if only Muslims voted only for other Muslims and got to rule themselves without Hindu interference everything would be fine. It hasn`t happened - even after permanent separation the Pakistanis` whole political system is still geared to deal with Indian Hindus and Pakistanis are on an eternal quest for parity with them - selling their religion to the highest Gulf bidder, villifying its minorities, shaping its international relations, junking electoral democracy, devastating Afghanistan and militarising their civil society all for the sake of holding off the Hindu majority of India.

When a 100 year old policy fails so abysmally, people should think a little before recommending more of the same. If Indian Hindus were voting in separate electorates, those Hindu leaders they vote for would care even less about the Muslims living among them than they do now.

So for example, under separate electorates, Gujarati Muslims might have had 9 percent of the seats in Gujarat legislature and Indian Muslims would have 14% of the seats in the Lok Sabha but due to separate electorates the leaders of the remaining 86% Indians would not be seeking any Indian Muslims votes and could afford to neglect Indian Muslims` concerns entirely and completely unlike now.

In that situation Pakistan would get to arm/intrigue with Indian Muslims against their fellow countrymen exactly like Syria and Iran arm/intrigue with the Lebanese Shias against other Lebanese communities and there would be not one Gujarat 2002 but many such.

Such a scenario would be Pakistanis` fondest hope of course - namely Pakistanis` direct interference in India`s and Indian Muslims` internal affairs without accepting any Pakistani accountability to Indian Muslims, exactly as Jinnah envisaged. Pakistan can then weild power over Indian Muslims without being accountable to Indian Muslims for anything which affects them, whether their right to change their governments or fair share of amenities, resources, education, economic opportunities.

But not being a Pakistani, I believe it is much better for Indian Muslims not to become isolated from other Indians and reduced to being instruments of Pakistani interests through a separate electorates/separate enclaves system. It is much better for Indian Muslims to instead hold Indian Hindus accountable under joint electorates for upholding of their rights and for their fair share of amenities, resources, education, economic opportunities.

But either way, I doubt Pakistanis` ultimatums on status quo to Indian Hindus like you are declaring are going to get Indian Muslims anywhere.

Academics say that rather like African Americans, Indian Muslims have become victims of history and discrimination. Some suggest that mimicking US policy on African Americans might help.

But, says Zoya Hassan, professor of political science at Delhi`s Jawaharlal Nehru University: ``Unlike African Americans Indian Muslims are not organised. They have not campaigned for their rights effectively. Of course racism is easier to identify than an anti-Muslim bias, but African Americans were lifted by a policy of positive discrimination which could help here.``

In numbers

Muslims form 14.7% of India`s 1.1 billion population but only

3% or less of the Indian army

7% of public administrators

5% of the railways staff

3.5% of the country`s banking employees

#413 by HisExcellency on November 15, 2006 2:47pm PT


Muslims in America, for the most part, aren`t hung up on the islamist cr@p...unlike the jihadis in the UK...

feel free to offer the land of the pure as a new home to Indian muslims....it`ll be fun to watch just how few people take you up on your offer...

#412

You must be referring to Indian Hindus when you used the term ``Indians`` coz the Indian Muslims are indeed pondering the idea of Muslim majority districts (read post #409 again).

Since old ideas and policies have failed to solve the IM economic and human rights problem, Indian Hindus will either have to offer ``new ideas`` (judging by their stale stand on Kashmir, I find that unlikely)... or ultimately accept whatever solution the IMs propose.

Like I said in post #414, the status quo is not sustainable.

re: ##411

Out of 545 parliamentary districts, just 11 have a Muslim majority. Communal harmony, village committees and employment are slightly better in these districts. Maybe because [Hindu] majority politics didn`t take root?

Unemployment and human rights abuses are a nation-wide problem for IMs, but not a ``national`` problem because it does not affect Hindus to the same extent.

Therefore a special nation-wide solution for IMs is necessary. Separate electorates, special budgetary allocations or muslim majority districts are one solution. Genocide and a second partition of India are another solution.

Either way, the status quo is not sustainable.

re: #410 by arjun2

Muslims immigrants in U.S. are prosperous..maybe problem is with govts of UK & India?