Indian Muslims

In #376 where I wrote ``And rest assured that debating an issue is the same as denying the other person the right to his views.`` I meant ``And rest assured that debating an issue is not the same as denying the other person the right to his views.``

#376 Mantolives: you write ``If you really believed in what you just said then you or Nasah would have no objection to me holding my views on Gandhi...Please give me the democratic right to keep my view...``

On the question of your right to hold your views, rest assured that I meant what I said when I wrote in my post #338 ``You are entitled to you views on gandhi. as i am to mine.``. And rest assured that debating an issue is the same as denying the other person the right to his views. All it means is that at the end of the debate, one has either learnt something new that causes one to change one`s views - or else one hasnt. So - if you end this debate without changing your views on Gandhi, I wont condemn you for holding ``wrong views``. I simply wont share these views with you. That is all.

Thus e.g., Pew Research reminded me of the example of Gandhi calling off the non-cooperation movement when things got violent (due to the burning of the police station) - and that reinforces my view that Gandhi was sincere in his calls for non-violence. There is nothing I have heard from you that indicates that the conclusions you have come to about Gandhi are based on anything substantive. The only example of Gandhi promoting non-violence that you have been able to provide is this one about a woman in the US threatening to take Gandhi to court for killing her husband. Rather than accusing me of not meaning what I say - you would be more convincing if you were able to substantiate this allegation (which is all it is at this point, and one that on the face of it does not ring true for a number of reasons).

Aisha boudi,

(Census figures paint a bleak picture of their plight.)

The numbers that you have quoted are true no doubt. But there is something that you are missing. A large chunk of the IMs who migrated in 1947 were the better educated, more enterprising ones. The ones who were left behind were disproportionately from the backward class converts- artisan, peasant and dalit classes. If you were to adjust for the same, the difference between IMs and Hindus may not be that great. ie. Dalit Muslims may not be much better off than the Dalit Hindus, Muslims belonging to artisan classes may not be much better off than similar classes in Hindus.

OTOH, the Bohra community has done very well (as it did pre -1947) with three of India` richest men Premji (of WIPRO), Hamied (of CIPLA) and Khorakiwala (of WOCKHARDT) being Bohras. Now how Pakistani Bohras (or Indian Banias for that matter) are as rich as Mr. Premji or Mr. Hamied or Mr. Khorakiwala. And of course, India`s entertainment industry is full of Muslims.

Of course, it is not to say that IMs are not subject to petty harassment, suspicion and discrimination in day to day life. But those among IMs who are determined to do well in life have done well.

Regards

Re: # 372

Romair:

Your response indeed raised valid points.

Allow me to clearly state my position that I do not see the problem through the religious prism. Therefore, I do not like to be put if muslim Indians are better or worse. The religion will only divide. Having said that does not prevent me to be a proponent of faith based community initiatives in India. I have not studied this concept in greater detail, but certainly would have loved an input from Farzana, and liberal and conservative hindus too. The problem, as I see, transends religious divides at least in India. Therefore, common approach is possible there.

I know and met many muslim Indians, including Farzana Versey. I respect and have personally met and discussed these issues. Each one of them was categorically against my suggestion that they should lead faith based community efforts, and not be worried that their efforts appear to be on the religious lines. Their position has been that the problem must be addressed through the system, rather than create a divide in the system. These statements, I know, came from their heart, and I respect that.

Your points on Farzana. She is the best critic, analyst and writer on Chowk that I have met. Her expressions are powerful. She makes the point that tears roll out when national anthem is played, is ignored, but her attemptst to point out wrongs are dragged for discussions, imperfections in expressions are magnfied. The long list of Farzana`s antagonists is only a testimonial to the validity of her views.

Analysing whether muslims Indians are better or worse, only brings out antagonists in droves to label and defeat and discount results as communal.

The reality is that India is not mature for unbiased acceptance of such analysis. Therefore, religion is not going to solve this problem for anyone atleast in India. It has not done for hindus, and never will for others. It has created more problems.

However, I do believe what Jinnah could not do or see in his times, if he were alive and leading muslim Indians today, he would have delivered more from the present, however defective Indian democracy to that segment of Indian society. Sadly he is an abandoned Indian hero, that must be discouraging to many aspiring muslim Indians and potential leaders. He would have readily dropped ``Muslim`` from ``Muslim League`` name, and make it more inclusive and deliver more. A true two party democracy would have evolved earlier.

In the present situation, the question for me is how to get the fair share of the growing economic pie to depressed communities, which includes muslim Indians also. If the rate of creation of middle class is a good indicator, then I can assure you that muslim Indians in Bombay have done better than hindu Indians in Bihar. In Indian terms, such religion based comparisons are absurd and damaging.

Muslim Indian friends I know are unanimous that stronger educational infrastructure, better health support, family support than job reservations is needed for the community. Funds for such initiatives must be sought and obtained. A few years ago I had narrated here an effort of an hindu Indian medical college student to bring education in Bhopal`s muslim community. In India such efforts are needed all across. Religion is redundant.

How do you deliver contemporary education to all depressed communities, including muslim Indians, is a challenge?

Another important seed, besides education, to sow is community based economic infrastructure to bring more profits into the community.

Above two initiatives will put in place drivers to create bigger middle class. They have done it everywhere.

I for one would not care even if they are faith-based, as the end result benefits the community. Muslim Indians in a position to lead need to be convinced. Initiatives are in their hand.

I am also convinced seeing the transformations, which I have seen, in creation of middle class in Moradabad, Kanpur and Benares among muslim Indians. It is not only possible but will happen. I have faith leaders will emerge from this community as well. They will shine, and when they do, no one can stop them. The government should leave it alone. India politicians and bureaucrats cannot be trusted for many generations to come.

Who could stop Shah Rukh Khan, Azim Premji, Irfan Pathan from happening?

The next generation is more result oriented among Indians of all hues, region and religion. Empower them with education, and economic tools, they will create middle class and bring profits into their community.

I have hope.

Anil

Re: # 368

Dear tahmed,

If you really believed in what you just said then you or Nasah would have no objection to me holding my views on Gandhi... would you. Look... nothing I have read about Gandhi has given me the confidence that his achievement was anything more than good marketing by his followers. This is my considered opinion and view. As for his non-violence, all his movements inevitably ended up in violence... so something has to be said about what the world thinks he believed in. Even if we accept that he was indeed truly non-violent (and believe me academics have taken issue with it... there is even a deposition in California by a young American widow who accused Gandhi`s followers of having her husband bumped off and then Gandhi trying to bribe her to shut up about it), freedom of the subcontinent certainly did not come about because of his efforts. If anything, his movement managed to delay self rule by a good 2 decades, which is why I feel that loyal Army recruiter Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi Qaiser-e-Hind (British title) was the right person at the right time for the British Empire. Chaura Chauri might just have been a convenient device after all.

The point here is that if Gandhi is held up to be such a revered figure and saint, we should be allowed to question his stances on issues of the day... and I for one am not going to give him credit for anything he didn`t do. Please give me the democratic right to keep my view, which is clearly based on more than Gandhi the movie- if you catch my drift.

-YLH

Here is some grossly outdated information on Indian Muslims.

I hear things have gone remarkably well since 2004 for the lot.

Time Magazine

``Indian Muslims do have their high achievers: President Abdul Kalam; Wipro chairman and India`s richest man, Azim Premji, and a host of Bollywood stars (Shah Rukh Khan, Aamir Khan, Salman Khan, Saif Ali Khan). But for every President or Muslim tech entrepreneur or movie star or policeman, there are 1,000 others with tales of discrimination in the workplace or the education system, harassment by wayward police officers or segregation into ghettos by Hindu landlords. Whatever the causes, there is no disputing the fact that Indian Muslims today are less educated, poorer and live shorter, less secure and less healthy lives than their Hindu counterparts. Census figures paint a bleak picture of their plight. In rural India, 29% of Muslims earn less than $6 a month, compared with 26% of Hindus; in the cities (where a third of all Muslims live) the gap rises to 40% vs. 22%. Some 13% of India`s population is Muslim, yet Muslims account for just 3% of government employees, and an even smaller percentage are employed by private Hindu businesses. Meanwhile, in the cities, 30% of Muslims are illiterate, vs. 19% of Hindus. Nor are any of these indices improving.

India`s Muslims are also far more likely than Hindus to be victims of violent attacks. In all the communal riots since independence, official police records reveal that three-quarters of the lives lost and properties destroyed were Muslim, a figure that climbed to 85% during last year`s riots in Gujarat. The Gujarat authorities even went so far as to price Muslim lives below those of Hindus, offering $2,050 in state compensation for Muslims killed but double that for the riots` 58 Hindu victims. ``There is often a tendency in India to treat Muslims as them rather than us,`` says K.C. Tyagi, former leader of the moderate Hindu Samajwadi Party. ``And this tendency does have terrible manifestations. Even today, by and large, Muslims have not been admitted to what we call the Indian mainstream.`` The portion of the population affected by this systemic discrimination is staggering: India`s Muslim ``minority`` numbers 150 million people (vs. 850 million Hindus)—after Indonesia, the second-largest Islamic community in the world.``


Aisha Sarwari

re: arjun #127

{and muslims can`t be represented by non-muslims...}

That`s a no brainer. If Hindu representation can manage only 3% employment and 30% literacy of Muslims after 60 years, the latter are better off representing themselves!!

re: harimau #132

Dear Harimau,

Save your lectures for your own co-religionists who are still stuck in casteism, medieval superstitions and xenophobic attitudes toward their Muslim countrymen. The contemporary Muslim League you are touting is meaningless to IMs without separate electorate. How can an Indian Muslim League empower IMs if they can`t even elect a Muslim MLA against a Hindu? The dismal record of Hindu leadership clearly indicates Muslims need to run their own affairs in India.

So long as camel jockeys continue to create more jobs for Muslims than monkey-worshippers, they`ll continue to inspire esteem. Moreover, the last pogrom against minorities in Hindulands was just 4 years ago. The Wahhabi state of Saudi Arabia has not witnessed a religious riot for more than 50 years!! You Hindus have a lot of catching up to do.

When you banish janam kundli culture and Hindutva from India, you can lecture IMs on modernization. Until then STFU.

Re: # 372
Maybe chowk doesn`t attract many Indian Muslims or for that matter a lot of moderate Indians or Pakistanis . After all most discussions here end with chest thumping and the usual name calling, hardly the stuff off intellectual debates.

Hinduism is as insulted as Islam on this site it`s just that you need to look at things from the other side.

Jawahara is an Indian Muslim and is not usually given the same treatment reserved for FV.

Now for migration, why would anybody want to migrate to India when there are richer countries to go to? India has no lack of uneducated labourers of its own. There is competition in every walk of life there.

It is true to some extent that poor Muslims are worse off than other folks but that is only because they started off being as poor or worse than others. There are lots of Muslims particularly in the southern parts of India who are well off and professionally educated.

Well off muslims in India (pre-partition) economically pretty much as they were then , some more so , some less. Some of the poor have remained poor (for various reasons ,we can discuss this) some have gone far. You cannot discuss this theme unless we have a pre-partition picture of the Indian Muslims who remained behind.

India isn`t utopia, its pretty lousy if you are born poor here, whether you are Hindu or Muslim. But by far and large in professional areas you don`t get discriminated because of your religion. If so FV wouldn`t be writing for Indian papers Irfan Habib would not be a well known historian, Kalam wouldn`t be president, Kaif wouldn`t be playing cricket and my Muslim relations wouldn`t be doctors, MBA`s etc.

I tend to agree with Nasah though it is roses all the way through. There will be some covert discrimination from some folks. But then it isn`t all that easy to break into the old boy`s network in the US either.

anil #351: ``Those Muslim Indians, Farzana Versey included, who can make difference are either non-political or too busy climbing up the ladder to realize their Indian dreams.``

.......i was pointing to the lack of indian muslims on this site.........not in general life.......the only one i see here regularly is farzana varsey........and she is regularly given the run-over by indian hindus on this site......i have noticed a significant amount of abuse against her from various indians........i have also seen an immense amount of hatred against islam and muslims (including indian muslims) on this site, from many, if not most, of our indian contributors here..........

but in general terms, as well, there seems to be four points of views, amongst indians, regarding indian muslims that i have noticed.........

- you, vereesh (and nasah) think that indian muslims are doing quite well.........perhaps not only better off than pakistani muslims, but are better off than all muslims in the world........according to you, they are busy achieving the indian dream........do you have any statistics to back this up.........if this is the case, is there a significant amount of migration of muslims to india from other countries........the only migration i know of, is from bangladesh.........

- various articles and statistics in the indian media and research indicate that indian muslims are worse off than dalits...........this is completely contradictory to what you have claimed......

- various individuals (perhaps mostly pakistanis) seem to indicate that indian muslims are qutie backwards, and it is due to hindu domination of them.......

- various individuals (mostly indian hindus) seem to agree that indian muslims are backwards, but point out that is the fault of the indian muslims themselves.......

so three out of four opinions indicate that indian muslims are not in the best condition of all muslims in the world, but in the worst.........since on the un hdi, india is ranked higher than only a few muslim countries.........and if indian muslims are in the lowest tier of india than they would be worst off than muslims in other places.......

.......obviously both opinions cannot be correct........could you provide some statistics to back up your claim........

anil: You will be pleased to see that I have more feedback to mantolives (in #368) on this question of right to one`s views. :-)

PewResearch: I think that is an excellent example you provide (Gandhi calling off the non-cooperation movement when things got out of hand with the burning of the police station) of Gandhi`s commitment to non-violence. And hats off to your grandfather for participating in the non-violent struggle for freedom. I think the concept of nonviolence is becoming increasingly important as the means to exercise violence become more and more destructive.

nasah: 100% agreement would have been fine. But I`ll take the 1000% agreement as well. :-)

matonolives #354 you write ``but what I have accused him of is Gandhi`s casteist and racist world view which is a fact of history no matter how much you want to evade it. ``

The basic difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is that while a dictatorship prohibits ``wrong views``, a democracy only prohibits wrong actions. If you truly believe in freedom of thought, you dont accuse people of holding wrong views. You accuse them of committing wrong actions. So guess which side of the divide you are standing on when you accuse Gandhi of holding wrong views while ignoring the fact that his views on race and caste are irrelevant to the reason Gandhi is held in high regard the world over!! and while ignoring the fact that one would have to be pure as the driven snow to be free of prejudices based on race, and no human (not even Jinnah) is pure as the driven snow.

``Ms. Sadna,

U won the round ;)

Mr. Hamdani,

U lost the round. :-( ``


Whats that word ... ah yes ... irony.

Re: # 341

Mr. Hasan,

A BIG thanks for giving ur opinion which mathced with that of mine. However there are many areas of poor Muslims as there are for Hindus. At the grassroots level economic condition makes sense than the personal beliefs i.e religion. I wish ur compatriots in Pakistan wud understand this. They still harp on poverty among Muslims but when the Heaven (Pakistan) was created....No, no place for ALL Indian Muslims but only for Punjabis! What a hypocricy is this! They have never stopped talking abt the poooooor condition of Indian Muslims. What they want out of them???? Eternal conflcit with Hindus??? What else? Was it not the programme of the fanatics? This Devil`s Advocate keep pouting the same nonsense with straight face......even now ....... uh!

Mr. Ahmed,

I am never against critical opinions on historical persons BUT HIS views borders on hysteria. Gandhi was never my hero nor he wud ever be, coz India didnt start with Gandhi nor Gandhi was India`s Father of Nation (BUT Jinnah was for Pakistan). India precedes all historical persons. If there can ever be father of India it cud be Asoka or if we want a modern one it shud be Akber The Great but never Gandhi. At best Gandhi cud be viewed as another important figure like many people born in this Indian Subcontinent.

Ms. Sadna,

U won the round ;)

Mr. Hamdani,

U lost the round. :-(

Pl discuss abt history BUT not abt the present position of Indian Muslims coz U dont have locus standi on the subject, if u want to know the reason.

Manto,

Many IMs who are educated enough and wealthy enough have moved out of ``Muslim ghettos``. I remember a friend whose father sold out his Nizamuddin house ( a Muslim dominated area) and move out to a spacious house in NOIDA (which would have a sparse Muslim population, I would think).

But this ghetto phenomenon need not necessarily be exclusive to Muslims alone.

Regards