Indian Muslims

#408 by HisExcellency on November 15, 2006 1:21pm PT

Indians in the UK are immigrants too..maybe the problem is with muslims?

An India Muslim academic from MIT makes the case for Muslim-majority districts in India...

Indian minority empowerment through political representation

By M Ayub Khan
The Milli Gazette Online

[Complete Article]

Numerous studies of democracies around the world have shown that minority representation strengthens representational links, promotes positive attitudes toward government, and encourages political participation. One study of the United States and New Zealand showed that redistricting of electoral constituencies to maximize the number of black voters in the former and reserving of seats exclusively for voters of Maori descent in the latter has led to a marked increase in minority representation in their national legislatures (Minority Representation, Empowerment and Participation by Susan Banducci, Todd Donovan and Jeffret A. Karp). It is a known fact that minorities in India are not adequately represented in the nation’s political institutions. Correcting this flaw in our democracy demands the urgent attention of the decision makers before these communities get further marginalized.

Several innovative as well as not so innovative solutions to this problem have been suggested. Dr.Krishnasamy of Tamil Nadu’s Puthiya Thamizhagam for instance is calling for a separate electorate for schedule castes and tribes. This demand was first made by Ambedkar in 1931. Krishnasamy dismisses claims that separate electorates would further divide the society: ``It is a fact that Indian society is divided along caste lines. Even after 57 years of independence, nowhere in the country are inter-caste marriages a norm.`` In this regard, the Puthiya Thamizhagam and Piranthamann Trust of Tamil Nadu even organized a national seminar last December with several politicians, activists and academics of note in attendance. Surprisingly, there was no reaction to this seminar from the Sangh Parivar.

But when Dr.Omar Khalidi, the Hyderabad born MIT academic, suggested another way for improving Muslim representation, he was attacked for allegedly advocating the ``Islamization`` of India. Explaining his call for creating Muslim majority districts in an interview to the Radiance he said : ``We need Muslim-majority districts for three reasons. First, concentrated areas provide security. Second, they provide an environment that is conducive to our cultural independence. Third, they provide a political base through which our people can be elected. At present, constituencies have been created in a way that our numbers don`t add up to elect adequate legislators.... Hyderabad and Rangareddy in Andhra Pradesh and Gulbarga and certain talukas could be merged to create a Deccan province. Similarly in Bihar, the regions of Katihar, Kishanganj and Purniya can be made into an Urdu-speaking province or a Union Territory. There are regions in Bengal and UP where Muslims can be in majority. Though, a large number of Muslims would still be left out, having these strongholds is important for their future. This would ensure proper political representation in States and we would have our voice in Parliament.... A decade ago, it was not fashionable to talk about reservation for Muslims. Today, Muslims have reservation in Kerala and Karnataka. In Andhra, too, we are likely to get reservation. Don`t judge everything from what`s happening today. Huq liye jaten hain pesh nahin kiye jate.``

Dina Nath Mishra writing in The Pioneer (Feb.26, 2005) claimed that Khalidi’s suggestions are nothing but a call to ``Islamise the whole world.``

``Jehadis are fighting for it. In India, they, too, have an agenda. Dr Khalidi has just put it in words and has, in fact, given a clarion call. Jinnah propounded the `Two-Nation Theory` and carved out a nation of Dar-ul-Islam (land of believers). The rest of India is Dar-ul-Harb (land of non-believers) which needs to be conquered,`` Mishra wrote.

One is at pains to understand where in the interview has Khalidi given such a call. Examining his thesis in the light of current events reveals that there is some merit to it. Security is of utmost importance for all Indian Muslims after what happened in Gujarat in 2002. A community cannot pull itself from poverty and illiteracy if it lives in constant fear for its safety. Muslim concentrated areas if not an ideal solution seem to be the only alternative for the near future. As a matter of fact such ghettos are already a reality. After the indiscriminate Gujarat massacres even the educated elite has permanently moved to Muslim areas. Investigative reports by NDTV and others have shown that even if they want to, Muslims are unlikely to get accommodation in majority dominated neighborhoods in urban areas. Apart from safety such concentrated areas ensure that Muslims are able to maintain their cultural identity in the multi-cultural democracy of ours. These politico-cultural enclaves will, more importantly, send Muslim candidates in numbers that are proportional to their numbers to political office.

It is important to note here that Khalidis’ is but one possible solution to address the dismal figures of Muslim and other minority representation. Several other options like the open list proportional representation system where parties are given seats in proportion to votes that they get via their candidates can be explored.

Far from leading to another partition or ``Islamizing`` of India such an exercise would further strengthen the faith of Muslims in India’s democracy and remove the divisions and disparities of the society. Doubters are advised to read what experts have to say on this issue. ``It is increasingly being recognized that an electoral system can help to ``engineer`` co-operation and accommodation in a divided society. Electoral system design is now accepted as being of crucial importance to wider issues of governance, and as probably the most influential of all political institutions,`` says The International IDEA Handbook of Electoral System Design,`` published by International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance, Stockholm, Sweden. It is high time for India’s electoral system to undergo an overhaul. «

Re: # 409

HE,

We have many Muslim majority dists in India from Assam to Kerala.

If it`s not abt religious agenda why u need a religion-specific dists specially created? U dont need religion for day-to-day admin and civil life.

As for Milli Gazette, are they any diff from RSS magazines? I think the Khalidi wants mini-Pakistans all over India?????

It seems u have taken a position of the old Indian malaise i.e Hindu Vs Muslims. We thought we came over it after losses of a million souls and three milion souls after exorcising the demons in 1947 and 1971 respectively.

U still want to revisit the pitfalls & horrors of communal politics? Are u blood thristy?

As a Pakistani, u must aware that the peaceful social life is all what people want with the external social environment with no biases towards others. ur theory goes against the very grain of that thinking.

U can start minimising the discepancies BUT if the system is descrepant it`ll be incorrigible. Thats`s the diff between India and Pakistan. Our setup is better & unbiased but there are descepancies which is not the case in Pakistan.

Dear Arjun

Unlike Pakistanis in UK, Indian Muslims are not immigrants to India. They made India. You didn`t eat paint chips as a kid, did you?

#406 by HisExcellency on November 15, 2006 12:29pm PT


Unemployment & low incomes of IMs are just an economic manifestation of ``tyranny of majority``.


Pakis in the UK are at the bottom of the economic scale in the UK while Indians don`t suffer the ``tyranny of majority``...

Unemployment & low incomes of IMs are just an economic manifestation of ``tyranny of majority``.

But you know something is terribly wrong when a majority also expects the religious minority to accept an ancient hate song as the national anthem... when the majority wants the minority to insult itself every day just to prove its loyalty.

In the past 50 years India has made great progress... only towards becoming another Rwanda.

The history and politics of Vande Mataram

By Shamsul Islam
The Milli Gazette
May 15, 2004

[Excerpts]

The Hindutva gang has been raking up this issue periodically as part of Muslim-bashing since Independence, especially on the eve of elections. As part of anti-Muslim propaganda they coined the slogan ``Iss desh maen rehna hae to Vande Mataram kehna hoga`` (If you want to live in this country, you will have to sing Vande Mataram).

Vande Mataram was part of the novel Anandmath, which glorified the annihilation of Muslims and not the British rule in India. This objection was very relevant, as even a cursory glance of the novel will prove. The novel was replete with glorification of incidents of “cleansing” of Muslims like the following one: ``The rural people ran out to kill the Muslims while coming across them. In the night, some ones were organized in groups and going to the Muslim locality, they torched their houses and looted their everything. Many Muslims were killed; many of them shaved their beards, smeared their bodies with soil and started singing the name of Hari. When asked, they said, we were Hindus. The frightened Muslims rushed towards the town in group after group. The Muslims said, Allah, Allah! Is the Kortn Sareef (sic) (holy Koran) proved entirely wrong after so many days? We pray namaz five times but couldn`t finish the sandal-pasted Hindus. All the universe is false.``

Bankim`s novel simultaneously glorified the colonial British rule. It portrayed the British masters as saviours of Hindus. This love for the British masters and exploiters was clearly visible in the last few lines of Anandmath. When the Hindu army (Santan rebels) was able to defeat Muslim rulers and move on to fight the British too, a mystic leader (Satyananda) appeared and told them: ``Your mission has been successful. You have performed the well-being of the Mother. The English reign has been established. You give up the war and enmity-mood. There is no more enemy. The Englishman is our ally King. Moreover, none possesses such power who can win the war with the Englishmen ultimately.`` Thus the great leader of Hindu rebellion was finally able to convince Santans about the historic utility of the British Raj for the resurrection of the Hindu kingdom and many of them went to Himalayas renouncing this world. Anandmath, which heralded the Hindu nationalist movement, is full of such perceptions.

kaalchakra #396
``this Gandhi understood, and never, as far as I know, became bitter toward Baba Sahib``

Correct. From here:
http://expressindia.com/ie/daily/19970724/20550283.html

``I think, however, that for Ambedkar to stand up to the uncrowned king and anointed Mahatma of the Indian people required extraordinary courage and will-power. Gandhi thought so too. Speaking at a meeting in Oxford in October 1931, Gandhi said he had ``the highest regard for Dr Ambedkar. He has every right to be bitter. That he does not break our heads is an act of self-restraint on his part``. Writing to an English friend two years later, he said he found ``nothing unnatural`` in Ambedkar`s hostility to the Congress and its supporters. ``He has not only witnessed the inhuman wrongs done to the social pariahs of Hinduism``, reflected this Hindu, ``but in spite of all his culture, all the honours that he has received, he has, when he is in India, still to suffer many insults to which untouchables are exposed``. In June 1936, Gandhi pointed out once again that Dr Ambedkar ``has had to suffer humiliations and insults which should make anyone of us bitter and resentful. Had I been in his place,`` he remarked, ``I would have been as angry``.

Gandhi`s latter-day admirers might question Ambedkar`s patriotism and probity, but the Mahatma had no such suspicion himself. Addressing a bunch of Karachi students in June 1934, he told them that ``the magnitude of (Dr Ambedkar`s) sacrifice is great. He is absorbed in his own work. He leads a simple life. He is capable of earning one to two thousand rupees a month. He is also in a position to settle down in Europe if he so desires. But he doesn`t want to stay there. He is only concerned about the welfare of the Harijans``.

To Gandhi, Ambedkar`s protest held out a lesson to the upper castes. In March 1936, he said that if Ambedkar and his followers were to embrace another religion, ``We deserve such treatment and our task (now) is to wake up to the situation and purify ourselves``. Now many heeded the warning, for towards the end of his life Gandhi spoke with some bitterness about the indifference to Harijan work among his fellow Hindus: ``The tragedy is that those who should have especially devoted themselves to the work of (caste) reform did not put their hearts into it. What wonder that Harijan brethren feel suspicious, and show opposition and bitterness``.``


``My personal view is that if there was one Indian who saved Hindu-Muslim relations from completely breaking down in India and who completely delegitimated (not removed) caste-based discriminations among Hindu intelligentsia, it was Gandhi.``

I think so too. But we Indians also need to understand what immense courage was displayed by those many Muslims who stood by their convictions about a united composite India throughout those difficult times despite being denounced as traitors by all sides - Muslims and Hindus both and at great political costs to themselves.

Pl shed some tears for the Stranded Biharis. U guys may not accept them as u discouraged the entry of non-Punjabis into Pakistan in 1947. These stranded people wudnt look like you Punjabis. Instead they look like monkeys (as some Pak General quoted abt them b4).

For more info: http://thestrandedpakistanis.com/

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http://www.springerlink.com/content/x6189617q1w1j617/

Abstract

The living conditions of the Bihari camp dwellers of Bangladesh are an embarrassment to the country`s social environment. An investigation was made about the socio-economic condition of the Biharis living in the Khalishpur camp, Khulna. A comparison has been made between the Biharis and equivalent Bengali slum dwellers in Khalishpur. The data were collected from primary sources. A 10% systematic sampling was undertaken to collect a total of 150 Bihari households and through a 20% systematic sampling 150 Bengali households were surveyed by questionnaires. Data analysed both qualitatively and quantitatively indicate that the Biharis are leading an extremely substandard life when food consumption, medical expenditure, schooling, income and employment pattern were considered. The condition as prevalent in the camp has led to a high rate of infectious diseases which is likely to aggrevate creating environmental hazards. The country then may face serious social problems which should be prevented through gearing up the process of repatriation and through encouraging community participation in improving their economic and social environment.

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http://www.migrationdrc.org/research/projects/project3d.html

A section of them integrated with the mainstream Bangladesh community; another remained in camps, claiming Pakistani citizenship and initially looked after by the International Committee for the Red Cross. The camp dwellers demanded repatriation to Pakistan, a demand that was not honoured by Pakistan.

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http://www.cidcm.umd.edu/inscr/mar/chronology.asp?groupId=77103

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Dispossessed Qadiani & others concerned,

When countered with facts u revert to pretend to be retard who doesnt learn a wee-bit out of new notes supplied. Thick skins and propaganda men are known specimens of such tactics. On Chowk u are an eminent retard and thick skin!

People evolve with times and in ur case I dont see anything happening all ur life i.e u dont unlearn or relearn any thing. Unlike u, Gandhi evolved in his life; he`s not perfect though. He`s eccentric. He`s stubborn but he`s a student of life. He learned from mistakes he made.

As for the topic of the board:

Lets start with Indian Muslims living in Pakistan. I already gave the portion from the article of Burhanuddin Hasan (ex-PTV director). THEY ARE MORE THAN REVEALING ABT THE DISCRIMINATION OF INDIAN MUSLIMS IN PAKISTAN. If Indian Muslim like Musharraf makes up for the losses & humialations inflicted on rest of Indian Muslims in Pak then India had 4 Muslim Prezs till now. That way India is far better if Muslims Prezs makes up for the rest of Indian Muslims in India.

We talk abt Indian Muslims (stranded Pakistanis) in Bangladesh. Pak even doesnt recognise them for existence. They live in miserable conditions in camps in Bangladesh.

Stop shedding crocodile tears for Indian Muslims, u thick skin retard!

I see that my Gandhi-expose has had a rather electrifying effect (as usual- I love it the number of times it works) on Hindutva brigade.

Harimau,

I will respond to your comments in detail, so please remain tuned to this. Right now I have a few more pressing concerns and I will return to this.

I should however point out the double standard that Indians display on this website... If the British said anything that goes against the Congress, it is because they were British so it is excusable... but their views on ML is accepted as the gospel truth. Look... Mountbatten, other than being extremely pro-Nehru, was also looking for a scapegoat for his own mistakes...

Unless, among others, H M Seervai, Patrick French and now Stanley Wolpert (with his new book ``Shameful flight``) have also gone to ``Mahomedali Jinnahbhai college of Law`` as you say, you don`t have any basis or factual rebuttal.

i think instead of talking of the state of indian muslims, someone ought to be talking about the state of pakistani muslims, especially their women. may be ylh and mrs. ylh would be the best people to comment to start commenting on this little piece of news that appeared today in the daily times.

rgds,

devkant.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006 11 15 story_15-11-2006_pg1_1

Women’s Protection Bill to be presented in NA today:

Govt caves in to mullahs

* Consenting sex to be made offence under Pakistan Penal Code

By Rana Qaisar

ISLAMABAD: The government has proposed amendments in the Protection of Women (Criminal Laws Amendment) Bill to declare “lewdness”, defined as wilful sexual intercourse, a punishable offence under the Pakistan Penal Code (PPC).

The proposed new Section 496B in Clause 7 of the PPC says: “A man and a woman not married to each other are said to commit lewdness if they wilfully have sexual intercourse with one another.” The government is expected to table the bill in the National Assembly today, and pass it by tomorrow.

The proposed amendment provides for a maximum punishment of five years imprisonment and a maximum fine of Rs 10,000. The amendments will be incorporated in the bill as approved by a parliamentary select committee.

The Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA) had insisted that zina-bil-raza (consenting sex) be retained as a criminal offence, even if its implementation resulted in rape victims being punished for failing to prove that sexual intercourse was forced upon them.

The select committee report had stated that as long as women ran a risk of being punished for zina (adultery), they hesitated to report cases of zina-bil-jabr (rape), and countless rapes were not reported for fear that the victim would end up being punished rather than the perpetrator.

However, the government claims to have built “firewalls” into the bill, which will legislate that a victim of rape complaining to the court will not be punishable for any offence in case she fails to prove her case. She would be prosecuted only if the complaint is made before a magistrate. It would also be a bailable offence in which the police have no role.

Another proposed amendment states that a complainant alleging lewdness would be immediately punished for qazf by the trial court if he or she failed to prove the allegation. “Whoever brings or levels or gives evidence of false charge of lewdness against any person, shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to five years and shall also be liable to a fine not exceeding Rs 10,000,” according to the proposed Section 496C of the PPC.

The Hudood Ordinances, promulgated in 1979, have resulted in several rape victims being imprisoned for adultery, while the alleged rapists go free, because they have been unable to produce four male witnesses to the offence.

#397 by masanamuthu on November 14, 2006 8:03pm PT

Gandhi also ate with his mouth...manto`s whole family is looking for an alternative orifice...

Anil, you took words out of my keypad by posting about Lincoln. I was going to say the same.

Lincoln is my favorite American President. Second favorite is Harry Truman. Little known fact is that Harry Truman used to be a member of the Ku Klux Klan in Missouri. Yet Harry Truman was the man who went against popular opinion and by an executive order abolished the segregation in the US military. He also worked for the upliftment of the Blacks. This executive order caused division within his own party and Strom Thurmond broke ranks and ran as an independent on a segregation platform.

Should we keep railing his from his brief days with the KKK or should we remember him more for abolishing segregation?

#395 by bulleya on November 14, 2006 7:05pm PT

........however, third world countries (including india and pakistan) do pratice discrimination due to religion etc............what should minorities do in such a situation?..........can they continue to hope for the utopian ideals of being treated equally, as you are suggesting?...........or at some stage, do they eventually get tired of it and try to defend their own rights?............

Bulleya, even though your post was addressed to Anil allow me the liberty to answer it. I am glad that you oppose any kind of division and so do I. However, as you correctly indicated that divisions do happen and it happens in the Western countries too. However, there are 3 differenes.

1) The discrimination if any happens tends to be more subtle.
2) The societies are more prosperous and since their more basic needs are met they can be more accomodating. In countries like India and Pakistan there is an acute competition for everything be it jobs, college admission, even basic necessities. I remember growing up in the 70s and 80s in Delhi when you had to fight to get cement quota or the 3 litre milk that you were allowed to buy.
3) Western societies have developed a much better law and order system over the centuries and if someone or some group were to flout the law flagrantly then there is more likely that they will find their ass in the slammer than in India or Pakistan. For example if a group of Hindus burned a Muslim shop or vice-versa then they are more likely to find themselves arrested and prosecuted in New York or London than in India or Pakistan. This in itself is an important help in any group that wants to work hard towards success.

Having said that discrimination can happen either way. Some Hindus do discriminate against Muslims and some Muslims also discriminate against Hindus. There can be discrimination based on caste, gender, sect, ethnicity, you name it. I am short and studies have shown that many-a-times taller people are preferred. That has not prevented me from trying my best. Women were and are still discriminated in many jobs around the world and it has not prevented quite a few of them from venturing into male dominated fields.

Yes, Muslims are not doing as good as Hindus in India. However, it is not that the gap is very significant. Most Hindus are also poor and I don`t hestiate to blame them for their being in that situation (see my post #6). Ultimately, people have a lot to do with how they mold their own destiny. On the contrary Muslims in India have the same opportunity as any other religious group to go to a school, start their own business, aspire for any kind of job, political post, military position, you name it. Indian law does not discriminate against any religious group and if there is any Indian law that prevents a Muslim from applying for a job and not a Hindu then I would like to hear about it.

Compare this to the Gulf Kingdoms that meted out second-class treatment to non-Muslims. Yet Hindus, Buddhists, Christians, Sikhs from India, Sri Lanka, Philippines, persisted and today non-Muslims control a sizeable chunk of these sheikdoms` economy.

Finally, no religious persecution story can be complete without the example of Jews. They were always down to their last out. Hounded throughout the Europe because some guy was nailed to a cross two thousand years ago. Even nations like the US, Britain, France discriminated against them. Read Shakespeare`s Merchant of Venice for example. The Holocaust saw them lose one-third of their community. Yet they persisted, persevered and now they control a sizeable chunk of the global economy and influence. Nobody gave anything to them on a platter.

Muslims (and Hindus as well) are capable of much more than what they have acheived till now. It is how you utilized your time. As one of my motivational speaker said, ``we all have a bank account that receives $86,400 at the beginning of each day but that account is going to be empty at the end of each day no matter what. How we spend that $86,400 is up to us``. The 86400 he was referring to was the number of seconds in a day.

Mantolives never gets tired of painting Gandhi in bad light by picking out statements he made in 1908 / 1922 / 1924 etc.. while Gandhi lived till 1948.. Gandhi also made statements lke ``Muhammad is a great man`` in 1924.. Do we have to agree with each and every statement over his long life of 79 years..?? And moreover he was always accepting good things from all around..

Just ignore those statements and think about what he stood for in his last years.. Especially after his interaction with Ambedkar in early 1930s.. Tahmed had remarked that he backstabbed Brits in 1942.. He just pointed out the hypocrisy of Brits fighting in the name of freedom in their countries while denying the Indians the same. He repeatedly pointed out that if the Brits leave India and make it independent he was willing to support the Brits against the others.. That sounds very fair..

Traditionalist understanding of ChaturVarna system - the one that our great grandparents had - is pretty much dead now even among Hindus. And since it got too much mixed up with caste sytem and caste-based discrimination, few tears ought to be shed over the demise of that understanding.

But IF one could rid the Varna system of the oppressions and discriminations that became part of it, it WAS a very interesting, powerful, and uniquely complex sort of social arrangement that developed in India. Gandhi first thought, quite foolishly IMO, that he could achieve the miracle - remove the absurdities and corruptions, and save the core Indian concept. For this mistake he fully deserved all of Baba Ambedkar`s curses and strongest denunciations (this Gandhi understood, and never, as far as I know, became bitter toward Baba Sahib). At some point in time, Gandhi realized the futility of trying to clean up old concepts and changed his views.

My personal view is that if there was one Indian who saved Hindu-Muslim relations from completely breaking down in India and who completely delegitimated (not removed) caste-based discriminations among Hindu intelligentsia, it was Gandhi.

Nehru the great and glamorous modernizer and secularist would have acheived very little without getting to stand on the shoulders of Gandhi, the great and weird traditionalist and religious Indian.