Indian Muslims

Re: # 144 YLH
`Racism and casteism that were the real true Gandhian ideals`
Really? Where did you receive your `education`?

Re: # 145

The US.

Re: # 142

Yes. You went to the superior El-Kamino Community College instead. Well done.

Re: # 142
actually mantolives went to a posh public school in the UK - somewhere in cheltenham - and then The Ivy League Establishment called Rutgers. All this was self-financed. So please correct your information.

Re: # 142

man, harimau, Rutgers and Californication University system are nothing to sneeze at. Surely better than the places you been to. You were never taught the real stuff which makes the world go round. You got to a crammer and did lots of text book stuff(t)

#148, 149

Over-compensation for the cruel joke nature has played on you chaps?

Second-Chance Field Goal Helps Rutgers Stay Unbeaten With Win Over No. 3 Louisville: Rutgers 28, Louisville 25

ylh zindabad !

Re: # 146 YLH
Funny! My tongue in cheek question was regarding your assertion `Racism and casteism that were the real true Gandhian ideals`. How did you conclude that?

Manto: riddle me this lilitit. How come outside of the subcontinent, no one has ever heard of Jinnah. comparing gandhi to jinnah is like comparing US to burkhina faso. in brooklyn, we call you guys, ``chuckleheads``

beef is overrated

........... so far i have kept quite on this subject because i really don`t care about the trials and tribulations of the poor indian muslims .......... personally, i find them to be pathetic whiney creatures who try to cling to pakis wherever they see them - shoo ! ........ they always tell us how badly they are treated by the horrible hindoos and how disappointed they are with us because, in their view, we are not good muslims and don`t deserve pakistan ........ they seek you out in the office on fridays and try to take drag you to the mosque, and when they see you eating during ramadhan they feel obliged to lecture you while blowing their bad indian breath in your face ............... most of them, specially the southern variety, are quite indistinguisable from others of the macaca species in the way they dress and talk and wag their heads sideways ......... like their hindoo cousins they have horrible table manners and ball up their rice in their fist and lick their fingers, making disgusting noises that make you sick to the stomach ...........

......... these people made their bed and now they have to sleep in it - they had a chance in 47 and chose not to take it ....... now they will have to wait their turn after kashmir and it might be a hundred years before we liberate bihar and up ......... as for the muslims down south, i would advise them to revert back to hindooism if they want to live in peace - in any case, beef is overrated

Chaltahai,

Even if we were to accept this Indian fantasy as the truth... since when did popularity have anything to do with the facts... Pop star Michael Jackson is certainly better known than even Gandhi. And he is a swell guy isn`t he... What do you mean ``you guys``... last I heard you`ve been sucking up to a young CEO of a Pakistani group to make your investment banking thing go places... Should I call him up and let him know what racist views you hold for all Pakistanis?



Pew Research...

Certainly... you asked for it right? Just tell Ranjit when he comes by...

Gandhi was a racist, casteist, misogynist, Hindu bigot...


On What Gandhi wanted

The last week has been very busy. We have not had a moment`s leisure. We saw Mr. Theodore Morison of Aligarh and the well-known Mr. Stead of the Review of Reviews. Mr. Stead has boldly come out to give us all the help he can. He was therefore requested to write to the same Boer leaders that they should not consider Indians as being on the same level as Kaffirs

Indian Opinion, 15-12-1906, CWOMG Vol. 6, pg 183



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On What Gandhi wanted (3)

CLASSIFICATION OF ASIATICS WITH NATIVES

The cell was situated in the Native quarters and we were housed in one that was labeled `For Coloured Debtors`. It was this experience for which we were perhaps all unprepared. We had fondly imagined that we would have suitable quarters apart from the Natives. As it was, perhaps, just as well that we were classed with Natives. We would now be able to study the life of Native prisoners, their customs and manners. ...Degradation underlay the classing of Indians with natives. The Asiatic Act seemed to me to be the summit of our degradation. It did appear to me, as I think it would appear to any unprejudiced reader, that it would have been simple humanity if we were given special quarters. ...the Governor of the gaol tried to make us as comfortable as he could...But he was powerless to accommodate us beyond the horrible din and the yells of the Native prisoners throughout the day and partly at night also. Many of the native prisoners are only one degree removed from the animal and often created rows and fought amongst themselves in their cells.

Indian Opinion 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 120


Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is rather dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company

Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135



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On What Gandhi wanted (2)

INDIANS ON PAR WITH KAFFIRS

There, our garments were stamped with the letter `N`, which meant that we were being classed with the Natives. We were all prepared for hardships, but not quite for this experience. We could understand not being classed with the whites, but to be placed on the same level with the Natives seemed too much to put up with. I then felt that Indians had launched on passive resistance too soon. Here was further proof that the obnoxious law was intended to emasculate the Indians.

It was, however, as well that we were classified with the Natives. It was a welcome opportunity to study the treatment meted out to the Natives, their conditions [of life in the gaol] and their habits. ...We were given a separate ward because we were sentenced to simple imprisonment; otherwise we would have been in the same ward [with the Kaffirs]. Indians sentenced to hard labour are in fact kept with the Kaffirs.

Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is rather dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company

Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135



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October 4, 2005

On What Gandhi wanted (1)

I have, though, resolved in my mind on an agitation to ensure that Indian prisoners are not lodged with Kaffirs or others. When I arrived at the place, there were about 15 Indian prisoners. Except for three, all of them were satyagrahis. The three were charged with other offences. These prisoners were generally lodged with kaffirs. When I reached there, the chief warder issued an order that all of us should be lodged in a separate room. I observed with regret that some Indians were happy to sleep in the same room as the Kaffirs, the reason being that they hoped there for a secret supply of tobacco, etc. This is a matter of shame to us. We may entertain no aversion to the Kaffirs, but we cannot ignore the fact that there is no common ground between them and us in the daily affairs of life. Moreover, those who wish to sleep in the same room have ulterior motives for doing so.
Obviously, we ought to abandon such notions if we want to make progress.


Indian Opinion, 6-1-1909, CWOMG Vol. 9, pg 149



On What Gandhi wanted (9)



Gandhi`s disdain for black people continues:

It is one thing to register Natives who would not work, and whom it is very difficult to find out if they absent themselves, but it is another thing and most insulting to expect decent, hard-working, and respectable Indians, whose only fault is that they work too much, to have themselves registered

What is a Coolie, Indian Opinion 2151904, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 193

CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi


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On What Gandhi wanted (8)



The whole affair is as much a disgrace to the Indian community as it is to the British Empire. The British rulers take us to be so lowly and ignorant that they assume that, like the Kaffirs who can be pleased with toys and pins, we can also be fobbed off with trinkets

Indian Opinion, 29-2-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 105

CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi


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On What Gandhi wanted (7)


More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji...

His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of `coloured person` on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But British Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their position is this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them. The Boer Government insulted the Indians by classing them with the Kaffirs. Now there is no occasion to perpetuate a needless insult

Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178

Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG


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October 4, 2005

On What Gandhi wanted (6)


More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji...

His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of `coloured person` on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But British Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their position is this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them. The Boer Government insulted the Indians by classing them with the Kaffirs. Now there is no occasion to perpetuate a needless insult

Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178

Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG


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On What Gandhi wanted (5)



It reduces British Indians to a status lower than that of the aboriginal races of South Africa and the Coloured people.

Indian Opinion 15-9-1906, CWOMG Vol. 5, pg 419-423

On What Gandhi wanted (14)

On Minority White rule in South Africa:

We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in the long run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be disastrous to the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate themselves to relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration of the special class required in the Transvaal on a large scale will be practically impossible. It would be equally unfair to the Natives of the soil. It is all very well to say that they would not work, and that, if the Asiatics were introduced, that would be a stimulus to work; but human nature is the same everywhere, and once Asiatic labour is resorted to, there would not be a sustained effort to induce the Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after all, gentle compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the Natives and so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple mode of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an indefinite length of time. We have used the words `gentle compulsion` in the best sense of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind that a parent exercises over children


Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol. 3, pg 359-360

CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.

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On What Gandhi wanted (13)


On Minority White rule in South Africa:

We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in the long run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be disastrous to the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate themselves to relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration of the special class required in the Transvaal on a large scale will be practically impossible. It would be equally unfair to the Natives of the soil. It is all very well to say that they would not work, and that, if the Asiatics were introduced, that would be a stimulus to work; but human nature is the same everywhere, and once Asiatic labour is resorted to, there would not be a sustained effort to induce the Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after all, gentle compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the Natives and so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple mode of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an indefinite length of time. We have used the words `gentle compulsion` in the best sense of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind that a parent exercises over children


For Beej who is apparently BLIND: Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol. 3, pg 359-360

CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.


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On What Gandhi wanted (12)



What the British Indians pray for is very little. They ask for no political power. They admit the British race should be the dominant race in South Africa. All they ask for is freedom for those that are now settled and those that may be allowed to come in future to trade, to move about, and to hold landed property without any hindrance save the ordinary legal requirements

Petition to Natal Legislature, CWOMG, vol3, pg 330


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On What Gandhi wanted (11)


Ah... and they said Plessey Vs Ferguson was bad...

Well here is Gandhi with his theory of ``Separate and Unequal``

...The petition dwells upon ``the co-mingling of the Coloured and white races``. May we inform the members of the conference that, so far as the British Indians are concerned, such a thing is practically unknown? If there is one thing, which the Indian cherishes more than any other, it is the purity of type. Why bring such a question into the controversy at all?

The Transvaal Chambers and British Indians, Indian Opinion 24-12-03, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 89


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On What Gandhi wanted (10)

More on Gandhi`s theory of ``separate and unequal``

Why, of all places in Johannesburg, the Indian Location should be chosen for dumping down all the Kaffirs of the town passes my comprehension. ...Of course, under my suggestion, The Town Council must withdraw the Kaffirs from the Location. About this mixing of Kaffirs with the Indians, I must confess I feel most strongly

Indian Opinion, 10-4-04, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 130-131



Other Gandhian Statements that we need to consider...

`Sanghtan is a really sound movement. Every community is entitled, indeed bound to organize itself as a seperate entity` : Mahatma Gandhi

(Young India January 6th 1927)


A translation of a Gujrati essay he wrote in 1922 for Niya Jawan

(1) I believe that if Hindu Society has been able to stand it is because it is founded on the caste system.
(2) The seeds of swaraj are to be found in the caste system. Different castes are like different sections of miliary division. Each division is working for the good of the whole....

(3) A community which can create the caste system must be said to possess unique power of organization.

(4) Caste has a ready made means for spreading primary education. Each caste can take the responsibility for the education of the children of the caste. Caste has a political basis. It can work as an electorate for a representative body. Caste can perform judicial functions by electing persons to act as judges to decide disputes among members of the same caste. With castes it is easy to raise a defense force by requiring each caste to raise a brigade.

(5) I believe that interdining or intermarriage are not necessary for promoting national unity. That dining together creates friendship is contrary to experience. If this was true there would have been no war in Europe.... Taking food is as dirty an act as answering the call of nature. The only difference is that after answering call of nature we get peace while after eating food we get discomfort. Just as we perform the act of answering the call of nature in seclusion so also the act of taking food must also be done in seclusion.

(6) In India children of brothers do not intermarry. Do they cease to love because they do not intermarry? Among the Vaishnavas many women are so orthodox that they will not eat with members of the family nor will they drink water from a common water pot. Have they no love? The caste system cannot be said to be bad because it does not allow interdining or intermarriage between different castes.

(7) Caste is another name for control. Caste puts a limit on enjoyment. Caste does not allow a person to transgress caste limits in pursuit of his enjoyment. That is the meaning of such caste restrictions as interdining and intermarriage.

(8) To destroy caste system and adopt Western European social system means that Hindus must give up the principle of hereditary occupation which is the soul of the caste system. Hereditary principle is an eternal principle. To change it is to create disorder. I have no use for a Brahmin if I cannot call him a Brahmin for my life. It will be a chaos if every day a Brahmin is to be changed into a Shudra and a Shudra is to be changed into a Brahmin.

(9) The caste system is a natural order of society. In India it has been given a religious coating. Other countries not having understood the utility of the caste system, it existed only in a loose condition and consequently those countries have not derived from caste system the same degree of advantage which India has derived. These being my views I am opposed to all those who are out to destroy the caste system.

hamidm # 49 `` didn`t i tell you not to panic and flee to the socialist republic of canuckistan because in the us the pendulum always swings to the middle ? !``


hamidm mian, whether these election results end up meaning much in the long term is still up for debate, but one this crystal clear - that you are a thali ka bengan, a witty thali ka bengan that is :)

for as long as I have known you on chowk, you cheered the ultra right wing of the republican party. You cheered on as they massacared tens of thousands of people around the globe. But now that the american mainstream has been IEDed back in the middle by Iraqis, you seem to have found your new religion too. Nice job!

Re: # 156

malik mian,

......... as a registered republican i have to support my party, but that doesn`t mean i have to support them on every single issue - i love homos and have always supported some sort of national health service .......... on this war thing, i thought iraqis, like the germans and japanese, were `normal` people who would appreciate being liberated, but it is clear that mohammedans are a different breed of animal ......... i still think we should put in a half million more troops to tame the beast, but i am afraid the american public does not have the stomach for it .............. so we will probably see a division of the country into three parts as joe biden and other democrats have suggested ........ what the heck ! .... you win some, you lose some ............ now i have to get back to campaigning for john mccain (again)

Re: # 155 YLH
Re: Your `large cut and paste`

I am disappointed by the shallowness of your `evidence`. You are a smart guy. Why do you make an ass of yourself with this `evidence` that does not support your assertion? A neutral 3rd party will conclude that your powers of logic are severely constrained, and that your agenda is not above the board.

Your cut and paste demonstrates that you have limited understanding of the historical context of the situation in turn of the century South Africa. I don`t want to spend my time educating you here. Take my suggestions as friendly ones to help you because you are purportedly a `secular Pakistani` a rare breed, and worthy of encouragement. Now that I am convinced that your understanding of this particular aspect of Gandhi`s life is shallow, I will make only one attempt in good faith to apprise you of some of the facts, because being a smart person, you should be able to fit the pieces of the jigsaw yourself:

For one thing, in the large and cut and paste, the general refrain (I assume that it is Gandhi writing in first person) is that Gandhi did not want Indians to be classified as natives by the racist South African regime. Abhorent as is may sound, it was a fact that Indians were officially treated better than natives, but inferior than Euorpeans. So, the large cut and paste demonstrates that Gandhi was appalled that to `put him in his place` in response to Gandhi`s efforts to preserve vested Indian civil rights and to oppose a new special tax on Indians, the South African regime was not attempting to silence him by threatening to further reduce Indians` civil rights by classifying them as `natives`. At the end of a long political struggle, if you do your research meticulously (and not take things out of context by selective extraction of his writings and then misrepresenting them to suit your purpose), you will find that the Boer leader Gen. Smuts finally agreed to restore Indians` civil rights whose dilution had invoked Gandhi`s ire ON THE CONDITION that further immigration of Indians to South Africa be stopped. Gandhi agreed as a matter of principle, because even though Gen. Smuts had disingenuously coupled the matter of immigration with civil rights, Gandhi chose not to respond in kind since immigration had never been on Gandhi`s agenda at the outset. None of the writings by Gandhi suggested that he thought that the ill-treatment of the natives was a good thing, or that he supported it, or that they deserved it. He was simply objecting to the the government`s move to degrade Indians by threatening them to classify them as natives.

Further, as all your large cut and paste jobs attest, this occurred at before 1910, a time when he felt that the Indian settlers or indentured labourers could not change the political system in the country: that was a task for the natives of the soil. He did not at that stage call for full political rights for the Indians, but only for civil rights and for the removal of any ``colour bar`` in legislation. He made great efforts to inform the white community of the cause of the Indians in order to secure their undestanding and support. He maintained friendly contacts with African leaders, and expressed full sympathy for their aspirations, but neither conceived of a joint struggle for full political rights at that stage.

This position was to change gradually over time when he returned to India in the `20s, `30s and `40s.

None of the above suggest that he was racist. In fact, if you go to the website of the South African National Congress (the ruling part in South Africa), you will not find a SINGLE assertion that he was racist during his tenure there. In fact, they have devoted considerable space on their website about his struggle in South Africa, and have even named a street in Johannesburg after him. Would they do that if they agreed with your assertion?
http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/history/people/gandhi/gandhisa.html
Only a jaundiced view would conclude what you have.

Further, next time you see a video/photo of Rev. Martin Luther King`s `I have a dream` speech from the steps of the Lincoln Memorial on the National Mall in Washington, DC at the height of the US civil rights movement, take a moment to check out the head gear of the persons behind him. That`s right! They are wearing Gandhi skull caps! Now ask why? Because King and his supporters were deeply influenced by Gandhi`s satyagrah.
Did you know that Rev. King spent nearly a year in India in the `50s researching Gandhi, obtaining first hand accounts from those who were close to him, including many who were in high office in the government of India at the time? This was a time when King and his supporters were officially discriminated in the US. I know that you never did that yourself (i.e spending time researching Gandhi in India from original sources), but you would think that Rev. King would have rather quickly picked up on any racism that Gandhi might have exhibited? No? Don`t you think that someone (if only ONE single person) would have pointed out to King the error in his ways for seeking guidance from a racist? No, nobody ever did.

Next time, challenge me more otherwise I will ignore you for representing fringe opinions.
CIAO

Re: # 158 PewResearch

Correction
change `the South African regime was not attempting to silence him by...` to `the South African regime was attempting to silence him by...`

pewresearch,

so you think that gandhi, the drama-queen as my younger fdaughter would call him, was not a racist ? ........ then what do you make of this :

``Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company``

........... if not an out and out racist, gandhi was a digusting bigot who has been glorified by western media in its quest for the exotic and erotic ............ shame on you for supporting this pathetic creature ! ....... you should be thankful to ylh, who is a bonafide scholar on this subject, for trying to set you right ..........