Musharraf Stirring the Pot in the Tribal Area—Why?

#60 by bbabu on December 6, 2006 7:22pm PT

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Re: # 59

If CNN was around in 1971 you would not have Pakistanis braying about Islam.

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Yeah Indira Gandhi needed CNN to bray about Hindooi Fundoois.

Re: # 59

If CNN was around in 1971 you would not have Pakistanis braying about Islam.

Re: # 58 babu raam furmatay hain

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`` BTW if Indira Gandhi had done all this ``reading the 1971 papers``, she would have conducted trials against Pakistanis. Heck she had 40,000 army men from Gen. to soldiers. They would have happily provided their ``samples`` to Indira for paternity tests for BDeshi and Bihari kids. ``

Be happy that CNN and DNA analysis was not around in 1971.

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hahah! So Indira Gandhi had 40,000 POWs and she needed CNN to prove the war crimes? Man you put all those HI-HI-T graduates to shame.

Bunch of yem yen boys trying to be men. Shameless indeed.

taikonaut #57

`` Well you are challenging Sh. Mujib`s statements. He said 3 million and you are contradicting your deity. Strange! ``

He is not my deity. Mujib was in prison in West Pakistan while Pakistani army was on its orgy in East Pakistan. How would he know ?

`` While you are doing this interesting ``reading of the 1971 papers``, figure this out! How many of E. Bengalis died in Hindustan vs. how many died in E. Pakistan. ``

Of course refugees die of starvation and disease. It is not like Indian army was hunting down any refugees. India in 1970 was in no position to feed 10-15 million refugees.

`` Also while we are at it, do some DNA analysis on BDeshis. We need to figure out all the kids resulting from those Hindi media reported millions of rapes. ``

why do i care ?

`` BTW if Indira Gandhi had done all this ``reading the 1971 papers``, she would have conducted trials against Pakistanis. Heck she had 40,000 army men from Gen. to soldiers. They would have happily provided their ``samples`` to Indira for paternity tests for BDeshi and Bihari kids. ``

Be happy that CNN and DNA analysis was not around in 1971.

Re: # 54 babu bhai says

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I do not know about 3 million. Reading the 1971 newspaper archives I can conclude safely that the Pakistani army killed 100,000 to 300,000 civillians in a few months. Most of the killings were pre-meditated. This would exclude deaths in military operations and killings by Razakars.

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Well you are challenging Sh. Mujib`s statements. He said 3 million and you are contradicting your deity. Strange!

While you are doing this interesting ``reading of the 1971 papers``, figure this out! How many of E. Bengalis died in Hindustan vs. how many died in E. Pakistan.

Also while we are at it, do some DNA analysis on BDeshis. We need to figure out all the kids resulting from those Hindi media reported millions of rapes.

BTW if Indira Gandhi had done all this ``reading the 1971 papers``, she would have conducted trials against Pakistanis. Heck she had 40,000 army men from Gen. to soldiers. They would have happily provided their ``samples`` to Indira for paternity tests for BDeshi and Bihari kids.

Thank you for your hard work.

#52 by taikonaut

Sure! China imports $10 million worth of IT, and dumps $10 billion worth of pots and pans. Net gain for China = $9.99 billion.

Arey yaar, at least know your facts before you argue. Till last year, India had a trade surplus of almost $ 4 billion. I`m not aware of this year`s figures, but should be somewhat similar.

What Hindustanis can do best is to take pot shots at Pakistan (1/10th of country`s size).

On the one hand, you guys whine when countries like US and UK do not mention India and Pakistan in the same breath, but when the comparison is in favor of India, you whine saying that Pakistan, after all is just 1/10th (actually it is 1/7th) of India.

Taiko,

The bilateral trade is around US$20 bn and the trade gap is not very large. But you are right China is very ahead of India in most areas and India would be well-advised to close the gap.

And yes, even though India may be poorer/backward than China in most areas, there would be areas in which China could (and in fact does) encourage investments from India, IT being one. Incidentally Indians are also investing in China for manufacturing both for Indian, Chinese and overseas markets (just as China is doing the same in India).

Regards

taikonaut #25

`` Abraham Lincoln didn`t give ``autonomy`` to the South, nor is SriLanka giving independence to its Tamil region. Look what Tajik and Uzbek Generals did to Afghan Pashtuns. 1000`s of Pashtoons were killed in overstuffed containers. Still Afghanistan is a country. ``

Lincoln fought the South. 75% of Americans were loyal to the Union. He had industrial base. He had morality on his side. America was a continent away from its neighbors.

What were those Pashtoons doing in those overstuffed containers in the first place ?
Last time I checked Mazar-e-Sharif was not a Pashtoon town.

`` Countries whether democratic or autocratic usually are not in the business of handing out autonomies. Hello! That is why they are called countries and not UNO. ``

India has a working not perfect federal system to devolve power to various groups. Switzerland has cantons to devolve power. USA has a decent federal system with checks and balances.

`` Just ask your chaha Nehru as to why he was so constipated about Kashmir. Every piece of a country be it next door or next mile, is atoot ang. UK didn`t let Faukland go out of its hand, nor do Russians treat Chechnians ``autonomically`` (my word). ``

UK let most of its empire go - India, Burma, Kenya, Ghana etc.

`` East Pakistan was an internationally recognized region with specific borders and demarcation. Pakistan tried to hang on to it as long as it could, while Hindustan sent in 60,000 guerrillas to help improve ``peace and harmony`` in East Bengal. Just read the what Manikshaw had to say about Indira`s black role in perpetrating atrocities during the dark days of 1971. Moreover India could not have been able to digest it. The price would have been too big. ``

Why don`t you admit that Pakistanis are incapable of running a large multi-ethnic state ?

`` The bottom line is that Sh. Mujib was a leader (sometimes in jail but still in good health and ``alive``). While the same Sh. Mujib, his boys, his girls, his uncles, and aunts everyone was turned into a pile of minced meat right in the middle of BDesh. Only Husina survived. Who are you going to blame the total annihilation of Sh. Mujib and his family. I am sure you would blame Hindustan for that. ``

Did anything stop Pakistan from hanging Mujib ?

`` You can smirk about 3 million dead. However you won`t be able to produce a single gas chamber, even a tiny concentration camp, or Hutu-Tutsi style floating corpses. Bengalis who died in those days mostly died in Hindustani camps. So the blame goes to whomever was controlling those camps. ``

I do not know about 3 million. Reading the 1971 newspaper archives I can conclude safely that the Pakistani army killed 100,000 to 300,000 civillians in a few months. Most of the killings were pre-meditated. This would exclude deaths in military operations and killings by Razakars.

`` Pakistani and Hindustani armies come from the same stock and they are known for their discipline the world over. There may be one bad apple in Kashmir, or Sierra Leon, or may be BDesh. However no one can accuse Pakistani or Indian army for genocide and rapes. ``

Indian army has never mounted a coup like the Pakistani army.

`` So let these lectures reserved for your own oppressed people from Nagaland to Kashmir. And please let us sort out issues on our side of the border. Thank you. ``

The basic difference between Kashmir and East Pakistan is the following:
East Pakistanis = 56% of Pakistan`s population
Kashmiri Muslims = 0.7% of India`s population

Any amount of propaganda does not convert a mole hill to a mountain

taikonaut #42

`` I hope one day the Southern Hindustanis (no hope for Northies) realize that Kashmir issue is hurting their chances to compete with China, and they will let it go. ``

Kashmir has no bearing upon India`s ability to compete with China. Work ethic, infrastructure and education do.

`` China had similar (nay bigger) territorial issues in Hong Kong, Macao, and Taiwan. However they remained cool headed and let these regions enjoy independent status.

The result? HUGE prosperity for the whole of China. ``

Hong Kong and Macao would have been part of China a long time ago if China had not been communist. It is comparable to Pondicherry (India acquired it in 1954) and Goa (India used force to seize it in 1961).

China is prosperous because of its people, Deng`s reforms and access to the US market.

Re: # 51

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By the way, China comes calling to Bangalore to get Indian IT companies to invest in China.

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Sure! China imports $10 million worth of IT, and dumps $10 billion worth of pots and pans. Net gain for China = $9.99 billion.

China has same population as Hindustan, but 3 times larger economy and 4 times larger budget. Sure China needs a lot of investments from its poor neighbor. hahah.

What Hindustanis can do best is to take pot shots at Pakistan (1/10th of country`s size).

Ref taikonaut #42

[..I hope one day the Southern Hindustanis (no hope for Northies) realize that Kashmir issue is hurting their chances to compete with China, and they will let it go.]

The South Indians are the ones building The Bomb and the missiles. Primarily aimed at China.

Tells you what the Southies think of China.

By the way, China comes calling to Bangalore to get Indian IT companies to invest in China.

Like Iran and Syria -- Musharraf no longer should be afraid of this morally bankrupt mortally wounded US presidency.....``chand roze aur meri jaan faqat chand hee roze``

Question- did Musharraf succeed in using the WPB to break the ARD and separate WPB supporter Benazir Bhutto from mulla-nawaz -- Nawaz Sharif? -- Nah.

WPB is Musharraf`s one decent act in the entire 7 years of his illegal rule -- if he does not stop here -- goes further to abolish the Hudood laws and EVEN the Sharia Court -- he will make up for most of his mortal sins.

one cannot help but commend that cowardly LION Shujaat Hussain for getting enough courage to steer the bill thru both NA and Senate successfully -- despite his MMA-induced irrational fears of divine retribution.

but why those Mother-hating MMAs of Mullah Mule Association start braying -- naa-heeN -- naa-heeN -- in unison -- at the very first glimpse of the women`s rights bill. They look like a bunch of rabies patients who choke at the very sight of shimmering water.

For the implementation of the WPB in Balochistan and NWFP -- I have only one word for Shaukat Aziz for putting his foot down -- BRAVO!

#45 by taikonaut

Wallet example is valid for Bihar and believe me that no body wants to steal Bihar. On the other hand Kashmir is not Hindustan`s wallet. It is a disputed territory from 1947.

Whether or not Kashmir is disputed, the fact remains that it is under Indian control and the state merged into India under an accession treaty (you can dispute it till the cows come home). India is prepared to negotiate its status, but not under threats of violence.

#2 shows even more lack of knowledge about Kashmir. Your statement is very similar to those Muslims who supported continued rule of Nizam over Hyderabad. Hari Singhs rule was bad for Kashmir the same way Nizam`s misrule of Daccan. Hindustan`s government has simply extended the ``misrule`` of Hari Singh.

And pray tell us how Hari Singh`s rule was bad? You cannot go on making statements without backing them up with factual evidence.

I said it before and I say it again. Do not treat Pakistan as an Afghan occupier of Indian territory. Treat Pakistan and Pakistanis as your brothers, and in the process you would win the whole of Pakistan. No I am not talking about destruction of Hindustan or Pakistan. These countries should stay as administrative units, and still love to live with each other.

Very noble sentiments and I fully agree with you. Neither India nor Pakistan should even think of destroying each other and learn to live in peace and harmony. However it is not possible till Pakistan keeps insisting on India handing over Kashmir, which is not going to happen. Look at India and China. Both claim a part of their territory is in the other`s hand, yet that hasn`t stopped them from making spectacular progress in their relationship.

Re: # 46 quotes

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“Given the tribal mindset, I foresee more trouble coming because they usually do not spare their ‘enemies’,

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Tribal mindset of revenge is not the sole property of FATANs (FATA tribals). Deep down every group has tribal mindset when it comes to protecting their interest.

The strongest country in the world i.e. USA has the strongest tribal mindset. Arabs killed 3,000 Americans on 9/11. So far Americans revenge has killed many thousands of Arabs.

FATAns must understand that killing American or European soldiers in Afghanistan is not kosher. You kill one Gora, and the B-52 will do carpet bombing over Bajore and may kill 1000 FATAns.

O Dear FATANs! You may plan to get to Mullahi Jannat (heaven) by killing NATO soldiers, but you will leave behind a big hell for your kins.

It is time to renounce attacks on NATO or Afghanistan. So far Pak army has been able to assure NATO that they will keep Pak-tribals under check. In case that assurance evaporates in the mountains of Bajor, the next step will be the daisy-cutters saying hello to Pak citizens.

Learn from Arab experience guys! Learn from Palestinians! The rest of the world is more than happy to send as many ARABS as possible to Jannat.

Suicide bombing may make headline news. However the ratio of Arabs killed so far is 100 nay 1000 time higher.

The Friday Times


Post-Bajaur situation alarming

Over three weeks after the bombing of Zia-ul-uloom Taleem-ul Quran in the Chenagai village of Bajaur agency, all government claims seem to have fallen flat in the face of angry tribesmen’s conviction that the attack was mounted by US forces stationed in Afghanistan. They also continue to insist that all the victims were seminarians and not under-training militants as claimed by the government.

Attempts by Jama’at-e Islami as well as Awami National Party leaders to visit the bombed site have failed, but some members of the Peshawar High Court Bar Association did manage to visit the area and speak with the people. They have since compiled a report that has also been sent to the NWFP governor.

Unofficially, however, some Jama’at members did slip through the cordon around Chenagai on Nov 16 with a group of journalists who had a chance to see for themselves the flattened madrassa, now being rebuilt by the local tribesmen. Journalists saw tattered clothes, caps, small slippers, bowls, plates and large-size kettles and bowls which the young students of the bombed seminary used for collecting food and tea from the nearby villages.

The journalists also met with Mir Zaman, elder brother of Maulana Liaquat, the administrator of madrassa, who was killed in the attack, and Abdul Hameed, Maulana Liaquat’s nephew, who would replace the deceased as the new administrator of the madrassa. Maulana Liaquat wanted to turn the madrassa into a great seat of learning, Mir Zaman was quoted as saying.

“Write [in your newspapers] that we will settle scores soon,” a young student told the journalists. The media-men also visited the graveyard where the victims, including Maulana Liaquat, lie buried. They saw a large number of people busy offering condolence prayers.

Most of the journalists came back with the impression that the area is still seething with anger. Not many people in Bajaur, however, would agree that the Dargai Fort suicide attack on Nov 8 was the result of this anger: as many as 42 Punjab regiment recruits lost their lives in that deadly attack.

National security agencies – both civil as well as military – meanwhile continue to look for the culprits of that attack. So far, the agencies have picked up about 60 people, mostly Afghan refugees in the Bajaur and Malakand region. About a dozen of those being interrogated are Pakistanis, predominantly Pashtun from the Dir and Malakand region.

Aftab Sherpao, the home minister, told TFT last week of “critical and important progress in the investigations of the Dargai incident”, but so far nothing substantial has come to the fore yet, unless the government is sitting on top of some information that it is loath to release just yet. On his part, President Pervez Musharraf visited the Punjab Regimental Centre in Dargai, perhaps to signal to his detractors that acts of terror would not deter him from pursuing the extremists. We will not back off in the face of such attacks, Musharraf declared, reiterating that the war on terror would continue and the perpetrators of these acts would not be spared.

Officials in the ministry of interior as well as within the intelligence establishment are primarily looking for leads to the masterminds from three angles: was it the handiwork of Afghan agents (as a reprisal for what they believe Pakistan’s support for the Taliban militants inside Afghanistan); did the Pakistani Taliban or staunch followers of the defunct Tehrike Nifaze Shariate Mohammedi (TNSM) mastermind the attack on the under-training Punjab Regiment recruits; or did the agencies create the suicide attack scenario to deflect attention from the strong resentment and wave of protests following the still mysterious and controversial missile strike on the seminary in the Chenagai village near Khaar, the administrative headquarter of Bajaur agency?

Sceptics in Peshawar raised this issue because they think the Bajaur tragedy really inflamed emotions. However, TFT’s conversations with people from various walks of life show the third possibility to be nothing but a stretch. “The government would not get army recruits killed and in such a large number to dilute the reaction from the Bajaur strike,” says a former intelligence official.

A top official dismissed the possibility outright: “The soldiers have to fight these terrorists. Do you think the government would get something like this done which could have a disastrous impact on the morale of those very people it needs to employ to fight this war? This is just ludicrous.”

Analysts also point to the fact that the attack was mounted by a suicide bomber. “This is Al Qaeda modus operandi and it has also been picked up by groups affiliated with Al Qaeda,” says one, adding: “The Dargai tragedy has to be seen in the context of the attack on the Bajaur seminary.” Other observers also dismiss the possibility of the hand of Afghan government. “This was a highly motivated attack and could only be mounted by an extremist. External elements would have used a remote-controlled device for this purpose. The only possibility, and this is a long shot, could be for the Afghan elements to have found an extremist who was then asked to carry out the attack in retaliation of the Bajaur attack. But this is really outlandish,” says a former intelligence official.

Most observers, however, agree that emotions are still running high over the attack and the consequent loss of life. “I have never seen such an outcry, people at large were fuming and cursing the government,” a professor of the Peshawar University told TFT. He said that many of his students who belong to Dir, Dargai and Malakand came back with disturbing stories about the bombing of the TNSM madrassa. In fact, one reason the authorities have still kept the area blocked off is to ensure that no MMA elements can go there and link up with the local tribesmen.

Interestingly, as one student told TFT, a day after the attack, TNSM leaders openly boasted that 278 people had enlisted to join the Taliban, though they ruled out direct attacks on Pakistan army or its installations.

The government is now trying to return to the peace deal it was preparing to sign with the tribes before the strike. Some sources say local leaders are prepared to give it another shot and this because most think that the Americans mounted the attack to sabotage the deal. The deal, TFT has leant, is along the same lines as the North Waziristan agreement: no one will attack army and paramilitary troops and the local tribes would hand over any foreigner found in the area.

The entire region is a stronghold of the TNSM, whose leader Sufi Mohammad is still locked in the Dera Ismail Khan jail for having crossed over into Afghanistan along with 8000 fighters to fight the Americans. He was sneaking back into Pakistan after the ouster of the Taliban when he was captured by the border guards.

Many fighters loyal to Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, the chief of the fundamentalist Hezbe Islami are also known to have sanctuaries in Bajaur because of their ideological and ethnic affinity to the local tribes. “That is why we cannot rule out the role of these outfits either as far as the Dargai attack is concerned,” a very senior intelligence official in Peshawar told TFT. However, he stressed that investigations are being carried out from multiple angles. “We are not looking into just one or two possibilities.”

What is intriguing for the investigators is the fact that instead of attacking one of the many paramilitary camps located within the tribal region, like the one in Khaar, the attackers chose a regular army training camp. Officials in Peshawar say they are preparing for more such incidents since the TNSM leaders and followers, particularly those masked tribesmen who attended the funerals and the protest demonstration, are not likely to sit back.

Usually they look for opportunities to execute the threats they have been hurling at the government. Khalid Aziz, ex chief secretary of the province, also sounded apprehensive. “Given the tribal mindset, I foresee more trouble coming because they usually do not spare their ‘enemies’, in this case the Pakistan army and paramilitary troops are their avowed enemies,” Aziz told TFT.

That is why Pashtun nationalists – led by ANP – have also embarked upon a new campaign premised on the perceived and actual dangers to their community on both sides of the Durand Line. The rhetoric-loaded ANP Jirga in Peshawar on Nov 20, and the Tahafuz Qabail Conference also in Peshawar a day before provide ample evidence of these under-currents which these parties might now find easier to exploit in a situation laced with resentment and anti-Americanism.

Both meetings left no doubt about the current mood in the Frontier Province; the army must return to the barracks, stop its interference and involvement in the tribal areas and allow North-Waziristan like agreements in other agencies to cool off the explosive situation there. The meetings also called for a grand, cross-border jirga of all the Pashtun tribes, something that Afghan government also sees as a panacea for the turmoil.

“This situation demands statesmanship as well as innovative strategy and not the status quo that the British and successive Pakistani regimes perpetuated for their narrow-ended interests,” says an analyst.