Musharraf Stirring the Pot in the Tribal Area—Why?

Re: # 44 by harish_hyd on November 23, 2006 11:00pm PT

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1. Yaar Taiko, this is like the thief holding a gun to a runner`s head and asking him to part with his wallet,

2. There was never any violence in Kashmir before 1989,

3. I am a southie and you can take it from me

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#1 clearly shows the lack of awareness. Wallet example is valid for Bihar and believe me that no body wants to steal Bihar. On the other hand Kashmir is not Hindustan`s wallet. It is a disputed territory from 1947.

#2 shows even more lack of knowledge about Kashmir. Your statement is very similar to those Muslims who supported continued rule of Nizam over Hyderabad. Hari Singhs rule was bad for Kashmir the same way Nizam`s misrule of Daccan. Hindustan`s government has simply extended the ``misrule`` of Hari Singh.

#3 I won`t question your statement. You may be southie. However if it walks like a duck .....

I said it before and I say it again. Do not treat Pakistan as an Afghan occupier of Indian territory. Treat Pakistan and Pakistanis as your brothers, and in the process you would win the whole of Pakistan. No I am not talking about destruction of Hindustan or Pakistan. These countries should stay as administrative units, and still love to live with each other.

#42 by taikonaut

I hope one day the Southern Hindustanis (no hope for Northies) realize that Kashmir issue is hurting their chances to compete with China, and they will let it go.

Yaar Taiko, this is like the thief holding a gun to a runner`s head and asking him to part with his wallet, otherwise he could lose the race.

There was never any violence in Kashmir before 1989, when Pakistan started training and arming local Kashmiri youths. There was the usual complaint (a valid one) about rigged elections, but elections are rigged almost everywhere else in India. Since then, it went through a metamorphosis and has now turned into a Jihad with the aim of liberating a Muslim homeland from Hindu ``occupation``.

I am a southie and you can take it from me, the sentiment is similar amongst almost everone I`ve met or interact with here: India will never give in to threats, blackmail and violence.

#42

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..I hope one day the Southern Hindustanis (no hope for Northies) realize that Kashmir issue is hurting their chances to compete with China, and they will let it go.

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Maybe before Kargil, pakis had a thin sliver of a chance with South Indians. Your tactical genius commando took care of that very effectively. Now most people I know from the South are convinced that the abomination that Pakiland has turned into has be completely dismantled and rebuilt from scratch. Without which, there can be no hope of being friends. We are hoping that the good people of Pakistan will step forward to do it themselves and we will certainly help with that.

But feed this monster or pander to its needs just so that it does not destroy itself as it sems to perinneally threaten....NOT ON YOUR LIFE. Alos, don`t worry about our ability to compete with China. It is our problem. Go ahead and do whatever you can to hinder India on her march forward, get in our way and we will crush you and move on...it is nothing personal. Stay out of our way and we can have a reasonably civil working relationship. It is your choice.

Oh another thing, we South Indians have no dreams of an ``Akhand Bharat``. We certainly DO NOT WANT TO RE-UNITE WITH PAKILAND.

Re: # 41 majumdar sez

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(It is time that the two brothers (Kuruvas and Pandvas style) learn from history and respect each other`s property. Otherwise we will destroy each other and the West will again set up a ``company Bahadur`` to keep us under its subjugation. )

Amen to that. Maybe Pakistan could show the way by keeping its hands off Indian Kashmir and India could reciprocrate by keeping its hands off POK.

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Thank you for saying Amen for peace and prosperity of the region.

Kashmir is hugely misunderstood by the Hindustanis. Thanks to Nehru`s shenanigans, Hindustan gained 2/3 rd Kashmir but in the process lost the whole of Pakistan.

I hope one day the Southern Hindustanis (no hope for Northies) realize that Kashmir issue is hurting their chances to compete with China, and they will let it go.

Look at China. Same 1 billion people as Hindustan but they are tens of times more prosperous.

China had similar (nay bigger) territorial issues in Hong Kong, Macao, and Taiwan. However they remained cool headed and let these regions enjoy independent status.

The result? HUGE prosperity for the whole of China.

If Hindustan of today figures out the real strength behind letting it go (or compromise), they will surely leap frog ahead of Chinese.

Unfortunately it is too much to expect in a region where nobody listens to the great peace maker Arjuna. Result? Continuous war, continuous misery!

Taiko,

(Hindustan too is suppressing democracy and causing trouble in his own backyard. )

At times, yes.

(At some appropriate time those Hindustanis responsible for this will be brought to justice. )

And what about the Pakistani generals who commited a genocide in Bdesh.

(It is time that the two brothers (Kuruvas and Pandvas style) learn from history and respect each other`s property. Otherwise we will destroy each other and the West will again set up a ``company Bahadur`` to keep us under its subjugation. )

Amen to that. Maybe Pakistan could show the way by keeping its hands off Indian Kashmir and India could reciprocrate by keeping its hands off POK.

Regards

Re: # 37 majumdar sez

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1. had Pakistan not suppressed democracy
2. India too is similarly responsible for mess in its own backyard be it JK, Punjab

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#1 and #2 present the inherent flaw in Hindustani logic. Following your #1, Hindustan too is suppressing democracy and causing trouble in his own backyard.

What BDesh should have been in 1947 is a non-starter. For better or worse, E. Bengal became an internationally recognized country called E. Pakistan. No matter what, Hindustan should have respected its borders.

Instead Hindustanis in general and Indira Gandhi in particular is clearly responsible for pushing 60,000 terrorists in a sovereign country. When those 60,000 terrorists failed, Hindustan went in with regular army. This was clearly a crime committed by Hindustan. At some appropriate time those Hindustanis responsible for this will be brought to justice.

So keep your lectures on Hindustani style demo-krazy to yourself.

Hindustan set a really bad precedent in E. Pak and paid through it nose during Punjab uprising of the 80s.

It is time that the two brothers (Kuruvas and Pandvas style) learn from history and respect each other`s property. Otherwise we will destroy each other and the West will again set up a ``company Bahadur`` to keep us under its subjugation.

p.s. just in case you have doubts, just read Gen. Manikshaw`s essays or watch his interviews.

Zeemax sahib,

Perhaps it may have been better off to have two separate states-Pak and Bdesh to begin with.

Regards

#37 by majumdar

Agreed. Pakistan sowed the seeds of discontent and external sources capitalized on them.

However there is no insurgency in Pak`s NWFP (FATA is not NWFP), and a very small insurgent fringe group in Baluchistan who relies on subversion alone and never surfaces to confront. Thus no parallel can be drawn with E. Pak which in any case was a distant exclave with little in common with West Pak.

Zeemax sahib,

My point was that very often the cause of secessionism and civil war lies within the country`s own domestic policies rather than on external interference. Whatever be the role of RAW in Bdesh, the fact is that had Pakistan not suppressed democracy in the united Pak (including E Pak) Bdesh would never have wanted to seceed. The tragedy of course is that the lesson has not been learnt and Pakistan continues to deny democracy to its citizens even now, (potentially) creating a Bdesh like situation in NWFP, Balochistan.

Pls. dont think that I am trying to preach to you, India too is similarly responsible for mess in its own backyard be it JK, Punjab (once upon a time) etc. External interference only exacerbated a problem that was self-created.

Regards

#30 by taikonaut

So don`t shout about, and lay low. Pray to whatever god you pray that war crimes tribunals won`t get setup. If that happens, the gloves will come off and Indira will be hanged (posthumously) for her crimes against Bengali people.

Like I said, mere allegations without any concrete evidence would remain just that: allegations. The involvement of the Indian-trained Mukti Bahini is a well-known fact. On the other hand, evidence of Paki atrocities in B`desh is there for everyone to see. Whether or not it qualifies to be called a genocide is a matter of semantics, but the fact remains that Pakistan carried out large-scale killings of Bengalis.

You didn`t tell us if you were a Bengali.

That`s because it has nothing to do with this discussion.

#34 by majumdar

No doubt the bombing of Bajaur too was carried out by RAW.

I don`t know why you say that. Neither I nor anyone in Pak has remotely suggested it had anything to do with RAW or India. Besides, the reproduced article quotes the findings of an american research group, and not the opinion of Paks.

#32 by arjun2

...demanding the prosecution of the paki armymen who killed all those people..

Why don`t you take up taikonaut`s challenge and produce evidence of large scale massacres? The only confirmed atrocity by Pak troops was in Dacca University which everyone knows was a hotbed of Muktis, but Paks apparently executed the faculty along with the insurgents as they considered them their leaders. I don`t know how far that was true. In all other accusations, there is simply no evidence of atrocities against civilians.

So try your trusted aide ... Mr. Khasichand Googlemal, and answer the question.

Zeemax sahib,

No doubt the bombing of Bajaur too was carried out by RAW.

Regards

Re: # 32 sez

``oh wait...that`s for the danish cartoons....``

Every Mullah or Pundit deserves his cartoon just so he can burn his neighbor`s house, loot his neighbor`s shop, and rape his neighbor`s women.

Oh wait....Those Mullahs are from Gujarat, angry over a $tupid little structure called Babri something.

#22 by zeemax on November 20, 2006 11:02am PT


They realize very well that Pak people still cry tears of blood over this.


sure peemax...I see photos of pakis out on the streets demanding the prosecution of the paki armymen who killed all those people..

oh wait...that`s for the danish cartoons....

Looks like taikonaut is right on the dot!!

Just happened upon this on an interactor/author`s iLog page dated 18 November:

http://www.chowk.com/show_interactor_page.cgi?membername=TanS

quoted from:

http://indianterrorism.bravepages.com/RAWterrorism.htm

US report details direct RAW involvement in East Pakistan secession
The News Intelligence Network

By Aslam Khan


ISLAMABAD: A sensational American report has confirmed the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW), India`s most powerful intelligence agency, was directly involved in the secession of East Pakistan into Bangladesh, and is currently engaged in similar activities. RAW has a long history of activity in Bangladesh supporting both secular forces and the area`s Hindu minority, masterminding the break up of Pakistan in 1971, says the report made available to the News Intelligence Network (NIN) The report has been prepared by the innocent sounding Federation of American Scientists (FAS), a group which is however engaged in analysis and advocacy on science, technology and public policy concerning global security, especially about countries which have nuclear capability.

It is a privately funded non-profit policy organisation, whose Board of Sponsors includes 55 American Nobel laureates. FAS was originally founded as the Federation of Atomic Scientists in 1945 by members of the Manhattan Project, who produced the first atomic bomb. RAW is extensively engaged in disinformation campaigns, espionage, sabotage and terrorism against Pakistan and other neighboring countries, reveals the sensational secret report. It also gives details of the truly alarming involvement of RAW in terrorist activities in Pakistan. The report reveals the involvement of RAW in Bangladesh dating from the 1960s, when it promoted dissatisfaction against Pakistan in the then East Pakistan, including funding Mujibur Rahman`s general election in 1970 and providing training and arming to the Mukti Bahini. The report claims an estimated 35,000 RAW agents have entered Pakistan at various times between 1983-99, with 12,000 having worked in the past or working presently in Sindh, 10,000 in Punjab 8,000 in North West Frontier Province and 5,000 in Balochistan. ``As many as 40 terrorist camps are currently operating at Rajasthan, East Punjab, [occupied] Kashmir, Uttar Pradesh and other parts of India and are run by RAW`s Special Service Bureau [SSB],`` the report reveals. The report further confirms that throughout the Afghan War, RAW was responsible for the planning and execution of terrorist activities in Pakistan to deter Islamabad from supporting the Afghan liberation movement against India`s ally, the Soviet Union.

``The assistance provided to RAW by the KGB enabled RAW to arrange terrorist attacks in Pakistani cities throughout the Afghan War,`` the report says. ``The defeat of the Soviet Union in Afghanistan did not end the role of RAW in Pakistan, as it established training camps in East Punjab, [occupied] Kashmir, Uttar Pradesh and Rajasthan where agents are trained for terrorist activities,`` it reveals.

It further says that RAW has become ``an effective instrument of India`s national power, and has assumed a significant role in formulating India`s domestic and foreign policies.`` RAW, according to the report, has enjoyed the backing of successive Indian governments in these efforts. Working directly under the Prime Minister, the structure rank, pay and perks of the Research and Analysis Wing are kept secret from parliament.

``Current policy debates in India have generally failed to focus on the relative priority given by RAW to activities directed against India`s neighbours versus attention to domestic affairs to safeguard India`s security and territorial integrity,`` the report says. It points out that RAW has had limited success in dealing with separatist movements in Manipur and Tripura in the northeast, Tamil Nadu in the south and Punjab and Kashmir in the northwestern part of the country.

RAW, it adds, has failed to neutralise freedom fighters in Kashmir and similar indigenous movements in Kerala, Karnataka and other places, along with economic and industrial espionage activities in New Delhi and Bombay. Giving a background of the intelligence agency, the American report says RAW was set up in 1968 ``specifically targeted on Pakistan``.

Pakistan, the report says, has accused RAW of sponsoring sabotage in its Punjab province, where it has been supporting the Seraiki movement, ``providing financial support to promote its activities in Pakistan and organising an International Seraiki Conference in Delhi in November December 1993``. It adds: ``RAW has an extensive network of agents and anti-government elements within Pakistan, including dissident elements from various sectarian and ethnic groups of Sindh and Punjab.``

According to it, India is funding the current upsurge of terrorism in Pakistan ``and has been behind the sectarian violence between Shias and Sunnis, which has resulted in thousands of deaths in the last few years.`` Terrorist activities in Pakistan attributed to the clandestine activities of RAW in the report include:

A car bomb explosion in the Saddar area of Peshawar on 21 December 1995, which caused the death of 37 persons and injured over 50 others.

An explosion at Shaukat Khanum Hospital on 14 April 1996, claiming the lives of seven persons and injuries to over 34 others.

A bus traveling from Lahore to Sahiwal was blown up at Bhai Pheru on 28 April 1996, causing the deaths of 44 persons on the spot and injuring 30 others.

An explosion in a bus near the Sheikhupura Hospital killed nine persons and injured 29 others on 08 May 1996.

An explosion near Alam Chowk, Gujranwala on 10 June 1996 which killed three persons and injured 11 others.

A bomb exploded on a bus on GT Road near Kharian on 10 June 1996, killing 2 persons and injuring 10 others.

On 27 June 1996, an explosion opposite Madrassah Faizul Islam, Faizabad, Rawalpindi, killed 5 persons and injured over 50 others.

A bomb explosion in the Faisalabad Railway Station passenger lounge on 8 July 1996 killed 3 persons and injured 20 others.

Another startling claim made by the American report is that it was RAW that was behind the hijacking of an Indian airliner to Lahore in 1971, ``attributed to the Kashmiris, to give a terrorist dimension to the Kashmiri national movement``.

Re: # 29 sez

``yet allege without any proof whatsoever that most Bengali deaths happened in Indian camps``

Look Harish, allegations would fly that Indira Gandhi had 40,000 of our troops as POWs. How many of them were tried for war crimes? Gen. Niazi and all the officers down the line must have had all the proof needed for millions of rapes and deaths. That was the time to conduct DNA tests on these officers and Bangla woman and the kids born after the fateful year of 1971.

As I said there was no smoking gun. No proof. Otherwise Indira would have run a Nuremberg style courts and dragged every Pak army POWs through it.

Here is one possible explanation for you. Indira knew that she will be equally (if not more) implicated for the death of Bengalis. She too will be dragged into crimes court and so too would Shah Beg and other leaders of Indian terrorists helping Mukti Bahini.

Look don`t believe me? Read what Manekshaw had to say about Indira`s deep involvement in the pushing 60,000 terrorists into a sovereign country called East Pakistan.

So don`t shout about, and lay low. Pray to whatever god you pray that war crimes tribunals won`t get setup. If that happens, the gloves will come off and Indira will be hanged (posthumously) for her crimes against Bengali people.

p.s. You didn`t tell us if you were a Bengali.