Musharraf Stirring the Pot in the Tribal Area—Why?

Re: # 32 sez

``oh wait...that`s for the danish cartoons....``

Every Mullah or Pundit deserves his cartoon just so he can burn his neighbor`s house, loot his neighbor`s shop, and rape his neighbor`s women.

Oh wait....Those Mullahs are from Gujarat, angry over a $tupid little structure called Babri something.

Zeemax sahib,

No doubt the bombing of Bajaur too was carried out by RAW.

Regards

#34 by majumdar

No doubt the bombing of Bajaur too was carried out by RAW.

I don`t know why you say that. Neither I nor anyone in Pak has remotely suggested it had anything to do with RAW or India. Besides, the reproduced article quotes the findings of an american research group, and not the opinion of Paks.

#32 by arjun2

...demanding the prosecution of the paki armymen who killed all those people..

Why don`t you take up taikonaut`s challenge and produce evidence of large scale massacres? The only confirmed atrocity by Pak troops was in Dacca University which everyone knows was a hotbed of Muktis, but Paks apparently executed the faculty along with the insurgents as they considered them their leaders. I don`t know how far that was true. In all other accusations, there is simply no evidence of atrocities against civilians.

So try your trusted aide ... Mr. Khasichand Googlemal, and answer the question.

#30 by taikonaut

So don`t shout about, and lay low. Pray to whatever god you pray that war crimes tribunals won`t get setup. If that happens, the gloves will come off and Indira will be hanged (posthumously) for her crimes against Bengali people.

Like I said, mere allegations without any concrete evidence would remain just that: allegations. The involvement of the Indian-trained Mukti Bahini is a well-known fact. On the other hand, evidence of Paki atrocities in B`desh is there for everyone to see. Whether or not it qualifies to be called a genocide is a matter of semantics, but the fact remains that Pakistan carried out large-scale killings of Bengalis.

You didn`t tell us if you were a Bengali.

That`s because it has nothing to do with this discussion.

Zeemax sahib,

My point was that very often the cause of secessionism and civil war lies within the country`s own domestic policies rather than on external interference. Whatever be the role of RAW in Bdesh, the fact is that had Pakistan not suppressed democracy in the united Pak (including E Pak) Bdesh would never have wanted to seceed. The tragedy of course is that the lesson has not been learnt and Pakistan continues to deny democracy to its citizens even now, (potentially) creating a Bdesh like situation in NWFP, Balochistan.

Pls. dont think that I am trying to preach to you, India too is similarly responsible for mess in its own backyard be it JK, Punjab (once upon a time) etc. External interference only exacerbated a problem that was self-created.

Regards

#37 by majumdar

Agreed. Pakistan sowed the seeds of discontent and external sources capitalized on them.

However there is no insurgency in Pak`s NWFP (FATA is not NWFP), and a very small insurgent fringe group in Baluchistan who relies on subversion alone and never surfaces to confront. Thus no parallel can be drawn with E. Pak which in any case was a distant exclave with little in common with West Pak.

Zeemax sahib,

Perhaps it may have been better off to have two separate states-Pak and Bdesh to begin with.

Regards

Re: # 37 majumdar sez

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1. had Pakistan not suppressed democracy
2. India too is similarly responsible for mess in its own backyard be it JK, Punjab

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#1 and #2 present the inherent flaw in Hindustani logic. Following your #1, Hindustan too is suppressing democracy and causing trouble in his own backyard.

What BDesh should have been in 1947 is a non-starter. For better or worse, E. Bengal became an internationally recognized country called E. Pakistan. No matter what, Hindustan should have respected its borders.

Instead Hindustanis in general and Indira Gandhi in particular is clearly responsible for pushing 60,000 terrorists in a sovereign country. When those 60,000 terrorists failed, Hindustan went in with regular army. This was clearly a crime committed by Hindustan. At some appropriate time those Hindustanis responsible for this will be brought to justice.

So keep your lectures on Hindustani style demo-krazy to yourself.

Hindustan set a really bad precedent in E. Pak and paid through it nose during Punjab uprising of the 80s.

It is time that the two brothers (Kuruvas and Pandvas style) learn from history and respect each other`s property. Otherwise we will destroy each other and the West will again set up a ``company Bahadur`` to keep us under its subjugation.

p.s. just in case you have doubts, just read Gen. Manikshaw`s essays or watch his interviews.

Taiko,

(Hindustan too is suppressing democracy and causing trouble in his own backyard. )

At times, yes.

(At some appropriate time those Hindustanis responsible for this will be brought to justice. )

And what about the Pakistani generals who commited a genocide in Bdesh.

(It is time that the two brothers (Kuruvas and Pandvas style) learn from history and respect each other`s property. Otherwise we will destroy each other and the West will again set up a ``company Bahadur`` to keep us under its subjugation. )

Amen to that. Maybe Pakistan could show the way by keeping its hands off Indian Kashmir and India could reciprocrate by keeping its hands off POK.

Regards

Re: # 41 majumdar sez

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(It is time that the two brothers (Kuruvas and Pandvas style) learn from history and respect each other`s property. Otherwise we will destroy each other and the West will again set up a ``company Bahadur`` to keep us under its subjugation. )

Amen to that. Maybe Pakistan could show the way by keeping its hands off Indian Kashmir and India could reciprocrate by keeping its hands off POK.

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Thank you for saying Amen for peace and prosperity of the region.

Kashmir is hugely misunderstood by the Hindustanis. Thanks to Nehru`s shenanigans, Hindustan gained 2/3 rd Kashmir but in the process lost the whole of Pakistan.

I hope one day the Southern Hindustanis (no hope for Northies) realize that Kashmir issue is hurting their chances to compete with China, and they will let it go.

Look at China. Same 1 billion people as Hindustan but they are tens of times more prosperous.

China had similar (nay bigger) territorial issues in Hong Kong, Macao, and Taiwan. However they remained cool headed and let these regions enjoy independent status.

The result? HUGE prosperity for the whole of China.

If Hindustan of today figures out the real strength behind letting it go (or compromise), they will surely leap frog ahead of Chinese.

Unfortunately it is too much to expect in a region where nobody listens to the great peace maker Arjuna. Result? Continuous war, continuous misery!

#42

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..I hope one day the Southern Hindustanis (no hope for Northies) realize that Kashmir issue is hurting their chances to compete with China, and they will let it go.

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Maybe before Kargil, pakis had a thin sliver of a chance with South Indians. Your tactical genius commando took care of that very effectively. Now most people I know from the South are convinced that the abomination that Pakiland has turned into has be completely dismantled and rebuilt from scratch. Without which, there can be no hope of being friends. We are hoping that the good people of Pakistan will step forward to do it themselves and we will certainly help with that.

But feed this monster or pander to its needs just so that it does not destroy itself as it sems to perinneally threaten....NOT ON YOUR LIFE. Alos, don`t worry about our ability to compete with China. It is our problem. Go ahead and do whatever you can to hinder India on her march forward, get in our way and we will crush you and move on...it is nothing personal. Stay out of our way and we can have a reasonably civil working relationship. It is your choice.

Oh another thing, we South Indians have no dreams of an ``Akhand Bharat``. We certainly DO NOT WANT TO RE-UNITE WITH PAKILAND.

#42 by taikonaut

I hope one day the Southern Hindustanis (no hope for Northies) realize that Kashmir issue is hurting their chances to compete with China, and they will let it go.

Yaar Taiko, this is like the thief holding a gun to a runner`s head and asking him to part with his wallet, otherwise he could lose the race.

There was never any violence in Kashmir before 1989, when Pakistan started training and arming local Kashmiri youths. There was the usual complaint (a valid one) about rigged elections, but elections are rigged almost everywhere else in India. Since then, it went through a metamorphosis and has now turned into a Jihad with the aim of liberating a Muslim homeland from Hindu ``occupation``.

I am a southie and you can take it from me, the sentiment is similar amongst almost everone I`ve met or interact with here: India will never give in to threats, blackmail and violence.

Re: # 44 by harish_hyd on November 23, 2006 11:00pm PT

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1. Yaar Taiko, this is like the thief holding a gun to a runner`s head and asking him to part with his wallet,

2. There was never any violence in Kashmir before 1989,

3. I am a southie and you can take it from me

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#1 clearly shows the lack of awareness. Wallet example is valid for Bihar and believe me that no body wants to steal Bihar. On the other hand Kashmir is not Hindustan`s wallet. It is a disputed territory from 1947.

#2 shows even more lack of knowledge about Kashmir. Your statement is very similar to those Muslims who supported continued rule of Nizam over Hyderabad. Hari Singhs rule was bad for Kashmir the same way Nizam`s misrule of Daccan. Hindustan`s government has simply extended the ``misrule`` of Hari Singh.

#3 I won`t question your statement. You may be southie. However if it walks like a duck .....

I said it before and I say it again. Do not treat Pakistan as an Afghan occupier of Indian territory. Treat Pakistan and Pakistanis as your brothers, and in the process you would win the whole of Pakistan. No I am not talking about destruction of Hindustan or Pakistan. These countries should stay as administrative units, and still love to live with each other.

The Friday Times


Post-Bajaur situation alarming

Over three weeks after the bombing of Zia-ul-uloom Taleem-ul Quran in the Chenagai village of Bajaur agency, all government claims seem to have fallen flat in the face of angry tribesmen’s conviction that the attack was mounted by US forces stationed in Afghanistan. They also continue to insist that all the victims were seminarians and not under-training militants as claimed by the government.

Attempts by Jama’at-e Islami as well as Awami National Party leaders to visit the bombed site have failed, but some members of the Peshawar High Court Bar Association did manage to visit the area and speak with the people. They have since compiled a report that has also been sent to the NWFP governor.

Unofficially, however, some Jama’at members did slip through the cordon around Chenagai on Nov 16 with a group of journalists who had a chance to see for themselves the flattened madrassa, now being rebuilt by the local tribesmen. Journalists saw tattered clothes, caps, small slippers, bowls, plates and large-size kettles and bowls which the young students of the bombed seminary used for collecting food and tea from the nearby villages.

The journalists also met with Mir Zaman, elder brother of Maulana Liaquat, the administrator of madrassa, who was killed in the attack, and Abdul Hameed, Maulana Liaquat’s nephew, who would replace the deceased as the new administrator of the madrassa. Maulana Liaquat wanted to turn the madrassa into a great seat of learning, Mir Zaman was quoted as saying.

“Write [in your newspapers] that we will settle scores soon,” a young student told the journalists. The media-men also visited the graveyard where the victims, including Maulana Liaquat, lie buried. They saw a large number of people busy offering condolence prayers.

Most of the journalists came back with the impression that the area is still seething with anger. Not many people in Bajaur, however, would agree that the Dargai Fort suicide attack on Nov 8 was the result of this anger: as many as 42 Punjab regiment recruits lost their lives in that deadly attack.

National security agencies – both civil as well as military – meanwhile continue to look for the culprits of that attack. So far, the agencies have picked up about 60 people, mostly Afghan refugees in the Bajaur and Malakand region. About a dozen of those being interrogated are Pakistanis, predominantly Pashtun from the Dir and Malakand region.

Aftab Sherpao, the home minister, told TFT last week of “critical and important progress in the investigations of the Dargai incident”, but so far nothing substantial has come to the fore yet, unless the government is sitting on top of some information that it is loath to release just yet. On his part, President Pervez Musharraf visited the Punjab Regimental Centre in Dargai, perhaps to signal to his detractors that acts of terror would not deter him from pursuing the extremists. We will not back off in the face of such attacks, Musharraf declared, reiterating that the war on terror would continue and the perpetrators of these acts would not be spared.

Officials in the ministry of interior as well as within the intelligence establishment are primarily looking for leads to the masterminds from three angles: was it the handiwork of Afghan agents (as a reprisal for what they believe Pakistan’s support for the Taliban militants inside Afghanistan); did the Pakistani Taliban or staunch followers of the defunct Tehrike Nifaze Shariate Mohammedi (TNSM) mastermind the attack on the under-training Punjab Regiment recruits; or did the agencies create the suicide attack scenario to deflect attention from the strong resentment and wave of protests following the still mysterious and controversial missile strike on the seminary in the Chenagai village near Khaar, the administrative headquarter of Bajaur agency?

Sceptics in Peshawar raised this issue because they think the Bajaur tragedy really inflamed emotions. However, TFT’s conversations with people from various walks of life show the third possibility to be nothing but a stretch. “The government would not get army recruits killed and in such a large number to dilute the reaction from the Bajaur strike,” says a former intelligence official.

A top official dismissed the possibility outright: “The soldiers have to fight these terrorists. Do you think the government would get something like this done which could have a disastrous impact on the morale of those very people it needs to employ to fight this war? This is just ludicrous.”

Analysts also point to the fact that the attack was mounted by a suicide bomber. “This is Al Qaeda modus operandi and it has also been picked up by groups affiliated with Al Qaeda,” says one, adding: “The Dargai tragedy has to be seen in the context of the attack on the Bajaur seminary.” Other observers also dismiss the possibility of the hand of Afghan government. “This was a highly motivated attack and could only be mounted by an extremist. External elements would have used a remote-controlled device for this purpose. The only possibility, and this is a long shot, could be for the Afghan elements to have found an extremist who was then asked to carry out the attack in retaliation of the Bajaur attack. But this is really outlandish,” says a former intelligence official.

Most observers, however, agree that emotions are still running high over the attack and the consequent loss of life. “I have never seen such an outcry, people at large were fuming and cursing the government,” a professor of the Peshawar University told TFT. He said that many of his students who belong to Dir, Dargai and Malakand came back with disturbing stories about the bombing of the TNSM madrassa. In fact, one reason the authorities have still kept the area blocked off is to ensure that no MMA elements can go there and link up with the local tribesmen.

Interestingly, as one student told TFT, a day after the attack, TNSM leaders openly boasted that 278 people had enlisted to join the Taliban, though they ruled out direct attacks on Pakistan army or its installations.

The government is now trying to return to the peace deal it was preparing to sign with the tribes before the strike. Some sources say local leaders are prepared to give it another shot and this because most think that the Americans mounted the attack to sabotage the deal. The deal, TFT has leant, is along the same lines as the North Waziristan agreement: no one will attack army and paramilitary troops and the local tribes would hand over any foreigner found in the area.

The entire region is a stronghold of the TNSM, whose leader Sufi Mohammad is still locked in the Dera Ismail Khan jail for having crossed over into Afghanistan along with 8000 fighters to fight the Americans. He was sneaking back into Pakistan after the ouster of the Taliban when he was captured by the border guards.

Many fighters loyal to Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, the chief of the fundamentalist Hezbe Islami are also known to have sanctuaries in Bajaur because of their ideological and ethnic affinity to the local tribes. “That is why we cannot rule out the role of these outfits either as far as the Dargai attack is concerned,” a very senior intelligence official in Peshawar told TFT. However, he stressed that investigations are being carried out from multiple angles. “We are not looking into just one or two possibilities.”

What is intriguing for the investigators is the fact that instead of attacking one of the many paramilitary camps located within the tribal region, like the one in Khaar, the attackers chose a regular army training camp. Officials in Peshawar say they are preparing for more such incidents since the TNSM leaders and followers, particularly those masked tribesmen who attended the funerals and the protest demonstration, are not likely to sit back.

Usually they look for opportunities to execute the threats they have been hurling at the government. Khalid Aziz, ex chief secretary of the province, also sounded apprehensive. “Given the tribal mindset, I foresee more trouble coming because they usually do not spare their ‘enemies’, in this case the Pakistan army and paramilitary troops are their avowed enemies,” Aziz told TFT.

That is why Pashtun nationalists – led by ANP – have also embarked upon a new campaign premised on the perceived and actual dangers to their community on both sides of the Durand Line. The rhetoric-loaded ANP Jirga in Peshawar on Nov 20, and the Tahafuz Qabail Conference also in Peshawar a day before provide ample evidence of these under-currents which these parties might now find easier to exploit in a situation laced with resentment and anti-Americanism.

Both meetings left no doubt about the current mood in the Frontier Province; the army must return to the barracks, stop its interference and involvement in the tribal areas and allow North-Waziristan like agreements in other agencies to cool off the explosive situation there. The meetings also called for a grand, cross-border jirga of all the Pashtun tribes, something that Afghan government also sees as a panacea for the turmoil.

“This situation demands statesmanship as well as innovative strategy and not the status quo that the British and successive Pakistani regimes perpetuated for their narrow-ended interests,” says an analyst.

Re: # 46 quotes

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“Given the tribal mindset, I foresee more trouble coming because they usually do not spare their ‘enemies’,

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Tribal mindset of revenge is not the sole property of FATANs (FATA tribals). Deep down every group has tribal mindset when it comes to protecting their interest.

The strongest country in the world i.e. USA has the strongest tribal mindset. Arabs killed 3,000 Americans on 9/11. So far Americans revenge has killed many thousands of Arabs.

FATAns must understand that killing American or European soldiers in Afghanistan is not kosher. You kill one Gora, and the B-52 will do carpet bombing over Bajore and may kill 1000 FATAns.

O Dear FATANs! You may plan to get to Mullahi Jannat (heaven) by killing NATO soldiers, but you will leave behind a big hell for your kins.

It is time to renounce attacks on NATO or Afghanistan. So far Pak army has been able to assure NATO that they will keep Pak-tribals under check. In case that assurance evaporates in the mountains of Bajor, the next step will be the daisy-cutters saying hello to Pak citizens.

Learn from Arab experience guys! Learn from Palestinians! The rest of the world is more than happy to send as many ARABS as possible to Jannat.

Suicide bombing may make headline news. However the ratio of Arabs killed so far is 100 nay 1000 time higher.

#45 by taikonaut

Wallet example is valid for Bihar and believe me that no body wants to steal Bihar. On the other hand Kashmir is not Hindustan`s wallet. It is a disputed territory from 1947.

Whether or not Kashmir is disputed, the fact remains that it is under Indian control and the state merged into India under an accession treaty (you can dispute it till the cows come home). India is prepared to negotiate its status, but not under threats of violence.

#2 shows even more lack of knowledge about Kashmir. Your statement is very similar to those Muslims who supported continued rule of Nizam over Hyderabad. Hari Singhs rule was bad for Kashmir the same way Nizam`s misrule of Daccan. Hindustan`s government has simply extended the ``misrule`` of Hari Singh.

And pray tell us how Hari Singh`s rule was bad? You cannot go on making statements without backing them up with factual evidence.

I said it before and I say it again. Do not treat Pakistan as an Afghan occupier of Indian territory. Treat Pakistan and Pakistanis as your brothers, and in the process you would win the whole of Pakistan. No I am not talking about destruction of Hindustan or Pakistan. These countries should stay as administrative units, and still love to live with each other.

Very noble sentiments and I fully agree with you. Neither India nor Pakistan should even think of destroying each other and learn to live in peace and harmony. However it is not possible till Pakistan keeps insisting on India handing over Kashmir, which is not going to happen. Look at India and China. Both claim a part of their territory is in the other`s hand, yet that hasn`t stopped them from making spectacular progress in their relationship.