Indian Scholarships for Outstanding Pakistani Students

Ditto here

great idea, i hope someone influential enough is reading it.

Re: # 144

Quiet biased you are, Mr Bbabu

Re: # 140

I actually agree with both of u. Ballu and tahmed...First off: this longing friendship has to start in immaturity --turst my guys it takes LONG for someone to heartedly accept eachother even if one is at fault. Secondly, if not in immaturity than the mature minds (many times) take too long to learn. The leftover matures who are capable enough to bring about friendship will not make enough movement; thus, no major influence.

:) Hope this settles the argument.

PS. You guys fight like kids here. Let`s act mature hun. Pakistan/India are comparable only in very few terms > gota look at geographics too (Maturity needed to understand :D)

However, considering the current world-wide-muslim state, Pakistan is not doing too poorly as a developing country.

Overall, I certainly would appreciate some common sense being used.

RB

Re: # 470

I have been following your posts trying to bring moderation in the interactions on the Chowk and much appreciate the spirit, alas, only if one could control one`s impulse to have the last word...
A sane approach I daresay.

Re: # 468

Respected Muqaddam,

There is no need to berate your compatriot with such dirty language.

Re: # 468

Muqaddam,

Cant agree more. :-)

Re all posts on the BeHaraami No.1

Remember, if you throw stones in shit you will only get splashed by shit, no different with our shit loving be-haraami No.1. The shit that he is he should just be allowed to rot. I doubt if he is a Parsee after all. Seems more of a bhangi.

INSTEAD OF BICKERING ABT THE GOOGLE THAT`S SHOWING MIRROR TO US, LETS HEAR FROM HORSE MOUTH I.E WORLD ECONOMIC FORUM ABT OURSELVES.

Source:

http://www.weforum.org/en/initiatives/gcp/Global%20Competitiveness%20Report/index.htm

Comparative statistics for India, Pakistan and China:

(These ranks are of the member countries of WEF’s 125 countries).

OVERALL GLOBAL COMPETITIVENESS FOR 2006-07

INDIA (43) - PAKISTAN (91) - CHINA (54).

These follwing parameters wud determine our medium as well as long-term outlooks for the respective countries.

Parameter Rank
(Indian-Pakistan-China)

Institutions 34-79-80
Infrastructure 62-67-60

Macroeconomy 88-86-6

Health & Primary Education 93-108-55



Higher Education & Training 49-104-77


Market Efficiency 21-54-56

Technological Readiness 55-89-75

Business Sophistication 25-66-65

Innovation 26-60-46


Anybody who`s familiar with management education wud know that Michael Porter is to Marketing as Newton is to Physics. This is what he said this year at Davos:

``INDIA, says Michael E. Porter, a Harvard Business School professor and expert on competitiveness. China is exporting massively, but ``it`s still adding relatively little value,`` he says. Moreover, China`s companies tend not to be very profitable, and there is a dearth of Chinese brands. By contrast, ``India is further along in building a productive business environment,`` Porter said. ``It has talented high-end people with deep expertise in IT, software, pharmaceuticals. It has the opportunity to go much further.``

(source: http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/printout/0,13155,901060206-1154161,00.html)

My own observation as a student of economics is that India can outpace China in the long run as we are ranked behind them ONLY in Health and primary Education. Mind u that we are just bad as China in infrastructure in terms of ranking but not that bad as it was imagined. INDIA IS AHEAD OF CHINA (FORGET ABT THE FORSAKEN BROTHER PAKISTAN) IN ALL PARAMETERS OF LONG TERM GROWTH.

Instead of taking pride in India, the forsaken brothers, the Pakistanis - like the legeanday Mir Jaffer did - bat for Chinese and spike Indians.

Okhla,

I am for the battle wits but not the battle of abuses.

I asked this gentleman to argue on points but in response he posted long passages of irrational abuses. How I respond to them? Btw, I am not in the habit of holding the grabage given by others but passing them on with some interest earned on it....;)

Dear Okhla, pl direct some of ur mind to ur compatriot so that he`d be limiting his points to `arguments` than abuses. I AM NOT THE SOURCE OF ABUSE BUT HE IS! So u know where to contain it.

Thanks bro for ur moderation......

VRV,

So you acknowledge that you have these inner compulsions that lead you to write these
nasty irrelevant irrational posts. So what if they would appear offensive to rational
sensibilitie !! You just have to do something ``perforce`` and to hell with the world.

May I point out that this exact trait is also shared by the mad jehadi suicide bombers.

Okhla,

Sorry man, if u dont like the posts here. Pl dont read them. I had to write them perforce!

++++

Neutered Haraami (circumcised),

Inspite of haraamis and beggers/squatters like u who despise India and Indians, I dont like to comment on Indian Parsis and their religion, coz Indian Parsis are the pride of India.

What u wrote is nothing but heaps of garbage, just like ur mind.

After day`s work cleaning septic tanks of Indians (American Indians or Indian Americans) in Austin, u try to pass on some muck to these boards.......for pleasure????? Man, u shud go to ur hometown i.e Karachi where u`d get plenty of sewage for ur pleasure - on roads, streets.....and in paalak for ur food.

---

U are stateless, lifeless, honourless, statusless, shameless, illetarate, uncouth, uncilviised and what not of that type beHaraami. Ur life is a saga of the job u do everyday......i.e a lot of sewage in ur mind, mouth, deeds and wrtire-ups.

Thoooooo....ur life.....is a waste, beHaraami.

Behram, Krishna, VRV & Co.

Just read your own last few mails from a western perspective. No wonder we south asians get the ``respect`` we deserve all over the world.

You guys sound much worse than mad mullahs. Blind abuse and curses. No substantial discussion.

Even the Jehadis would be better than you lot. May the curse be upon you for the simple reason that mere existence of such mindsets continues to plague the relations between the two countries. The man on the street pays the price while folks like you continue to foment hatred and intolerance while safely enconced in the west.

Please do not take it like a joke or a pastime. It is not. Take your petty bickerings and ``maa-behn kee`` elsewhere. Restrict your comments to the topic.

A whole bunch of us find the lot of you disgusting and repulsive.

Re: # 458 by krishna_abcd on November 24, 2006 8:10pm PT

Lord Krishna:

Just like that other Hindoo from your Hindoo Land, you have developed Restless Brain Syndrome (RBS), when you start writing:

[I think everyone should realize by now that behram-baba is no Parsee.]

Are you getting embarrassed in exposing your hatred towards anything that is Pakistani, eh? Or are you just getting angry for unnecessary attacks on Parsees? Parsees, who have nothing to do with your Hindoo Land`s hatred towards anybody.

Why are you tormenting? Huh!


[Being a professional cheater and taking advantage of programs meant for actual human beings, this kind of cheating comes naturally to him. ]

At least try to create your own wit (if you have any, that is?) Do you always copy other people`s style, eh! Looking in the mirror should show you how ugly you are, because you are a Hindoo from Hindoo Land. Hindoo Land is a land which is world famous for mass murderers. Is it not?

But the fact remains that you were born in the cheater`s class of Hindoo Land, and that you were ingrained to cheat your way in this life. But you learned only to cheat in acquiring wealth by hiding money and not giving your fair share of taxes. You left a dilapidated Hindoo Land with absolutely no infrastructure, and yes, your Hindoos are squatting on those rail road tracks.

Can you not see as to why you are so tormented? Being raised as a bonafide person from the cheater`s class has its costs, does it not?

Respectfully submitted,

For your reading pleasure

Hindoo gangsters from Hindoo Land have this need to convince others that somehow they are educated. Well, they are not. Besides AIDS, most of them have autism and are bipolar. Hindoos, those who are in Hindoo Land, and those from Hindoo Land are very cunning and corrupt. This generation of Hindoos were raised by parents who developed the cheater`s class, where taking bribes was very common.

As Wipro`s Azim Premji, said a software engineer in India makes only $ 9,000.00 per year, and that also in 2006. So a fair question would be:

What were the salaries of these office politicos cheaters who were getting ahead, or were giving a-head as the case maybe?

How could these cheater`s of Hindoo Land afford to send their children to the west for education?

All those Haram-Ki-Daulat by asking bribes and double dipping in the employer`s money. Now the children`s of these shameless Hindoo cheater`s class of Hindoo Land is once again trying to make people in the new world believe that they have some value to the corporate world. The only thing that these Hindoos from Hindoo Land can offer is autism. Most Hindoo from Hindoo Land are bipolar.

Do Hindoos have the Islamic concept of Haram or Halal? I doubt it. Heck, gujju Hindoos are known to suggest that ``chamri jaye pun dhamri na jaye`` These Hindoos` deen-or-imaan is money, is it not?

Respectfully submitted,

#455 by behram1

Guess now you`re real mad because this post was not suffixed with `Respectfully Submitted` .... !

I think everyone should realize by now that behram-baba is no Parsee. Being a low-life skunk and a coward, he uses the Parsee pseudo-identity as a shield to deflect criticism away from Muslims. That way, he can bash Hindus all he wants, without Muslims in Pakiland ever getting affected.

It`s a good ploy, but a few of his reactions have exposed him.

Being a professional cheater and taking advantage of programs meant for actual human beings, this kind of cheating comes naturally to him.

#445 by behram-baba (P.D.E.)

[Okla, where did you ever find an intelligent Hindoo? ]

Not in a septic tank. Which is where you find intelligent P.E.s from Pakiland.

You find intelligent Hindus in Microsoft, Motorola, NASA etc.

:))


[They were raised by Indian parents who were a bonafide member of the cheater`s class. Back in the early 50`s and 60`s this group of people became employees of some corporation or became a babujee in some government employment.And then they learned the trick of office politics...]


behram-baba`s parents (he`s not sure which one of the four is his real mother :)), being Paki, never figured out the trick of office politics. So the female members of his family had to resort to turning tricks. Which is how behram-baba (P.E.) was born.

:))

#442 by krishna_abcd on November 23, 2006 8:33pm PT


#440 by behram-baba (P.E.)


It`s actually behram P.D.E.(Professionally disadvantaged engineer)..Please use his full title...It`ll help assuage his anguish at the fact that he`s just a small time contractor who only gets jobs because of affirmative action...

Circumcised Ch()tiya BeHaraami,

Garbage is ur point. So lets talk in ur lingo i.e garbage. I too like that coz I have a lot of liberty and lot of vocabulary to choose from.

Parsees are dwindling in numbers. Why, they are Neuters, like u. Their arses were kicked in Persia and later in Sanjan. Why they attarct Muslim feet on to their arses.

They were rendered stateless and beg - like u do in Austin - to eke-out a living. Why? They are beggers (btw, this apply to Napak Parsis and Neuters like u, Ch()tiya).

I never had a problem with the Indian Parsis but there are hybirds like u who cud be diff from pure Parsis.

I am clear from what u wrote. 1. U dont know history. 2. U dont have any points to argue.
3. U cling to abuses.

Well. So be it. We are back to sqaure one.

Disrepectfully Submitted, Ch()tiya BeHaraami aka Namak Haraami.

INDIANS: CH()TIYA BE-HARAAMI BE CONDEMNED AS HE DOESNT ARGUE BUT ABUSE. HE NEED TO PAID BACK IN KIND.

Re:#454 by VRV on November 24, 2006 6:04pm PT

[Behram, Lets start the debate with no objectiobale language either from ur or my side.]

Why a sudden change of style? Is this the same trick that hindoos from Hindoo Land are world famous for?

First, it has always been the Hindoos from Hindoo Land who cast the first stone any any discussion, and then your ilk define any bogus argument to your heart`s desire. Then you use Hindoos gangsterism is intimidating a descent interlocutor, and then you call the person all sorts of names, etc.

You think that I get intimidated. You choutia, I cherish such arguments, with the filth of your society. Yes, I work in a field to clean the stinking Hindoos from Hindoo Land on this Chowk. You and your people have no knowledge of history at all.

Let me start all over again. From where it started that Pakistan has the best engineers from South Asia, and they are almost always in their own professional engineering business. Unlike most of Hindoos from Hindoo Land, Pakistanis do not suffer from autism or bipolarism.

Whereas most Hindoos from Hindoo Land have been diagnosed as having autism or are bipolar.

Whereas most Hindoos from Hindoo Land have also been identified as having a low self-esteem and are on constant mode of belligerency.

Whereas most Hindoos from Hindoo Land have no intellectual knowledge whatsoever and they continue to be loquacious without knowing the content of any discussion what soever.

It is also suggested by Wipro`s Azim Premji that his company is now getting into the second, third, and fourth tier engineering colleges to get software engineers who are worth at less than $9,000.00 per year.

Now, that shows that Hindoo Land has fooled the west with sending the lowest of the low level engineers to the western world. This is exactly what the Economist had suggested several months ago. Whereas, for Pakistan nothing but the very best Pakistani graduates have come to the west, and are successful, no matter what that myopic and autist one-liner artist from Hindoo Land suggest.

{What ur point?

What`s this Hindoo Land and what that connote? }

And all of the above is my point. Give respect to any and all things Pakistani, and you will get all the respect from a Zoroastrian from Pakistan. No more Pakistani muslim bashing.

{Ur trip to Bombay in 1970 shud not be the basis for ur commennts now. Does that mean to say that all taxi users in Bombay were Pakistanis? Do u have any formal education?? }

Yes, it is my opinion about Hindoo Land, and I have aright to express what a garbage society Hindoos have created for the world to see.

{Moghals under Akber were looking east for prosperity? Was that Pak history? The reality was that Bengal posting were hated by all Moghal Governors. That was kinda punishment posting. Thats the true picture. If u read the books on India u wud know a place like Surat was burstling with traders from the Middle east and later by Europeans. Calcutta became prominent after the British settled there. }

You can play all kinds of nuances, but the fact remains that British took all the Gujjus to lay railroad tracks in Africa much later. They were successful in getting a hold in Bengal first, and then they came westward. Surat and muslim middle-east traders maybe, but were there any Hindoos to speak of. Hindoos bania were all over the trees with their dhoti hung upside down for the smugglers of middle east to shove up their hiney.

{Prosperity in India was in Gujarat (for many centuries). Gujarat was the surplus province under Mughals. Gujaratis were known mercantile civilisation since the times of Indus Civilisation. }

Yeah, rite. You can continue with your bogus story. What I have seen is that Gujju @ss being kicked in Africa because of their shenanigans? If a society has that many centuries of mercantile values embedded then why are they kicked out every place that they go?

Why have Parsees not been kicked out of any place as of yet?

[Parsees were good slaves to British and loyal Indians at the same time. They changed as they imitated British. Their growth was coterminous with the growth of British in India and that of Bombay city.]

So if it was the British that brought prosperity amongst the Parsee, why have you been claiming constantly about namk harami? eh! Why should I have any allegiance to Hindoos for anything that was not even done by the Hindoos? Your Hindoo brain has definitely got some Restive Brain Syndrome (RBS) (instead of RLS).

[If that was the level of ur logic and arguments......we better bicker at old levels i.e abuses. ]

I have seen your Hindoo level of interactions will almost anybody who has anything good to say about Pakistan. You hate Pakistan, and you know that. It will be a sign of maturity for you and all those Hindoos from Hindoo Land to come out and confess as such.

You are nothing else but a hate mongering Hindoo from Hindoo Land.

---

#453 by harimau on November 24, 2006 5:50pm PT

[The earliest trading posts of the Portuguese were also located along the Western coast of India... at Diu, Daman and Goa.]

Here is where a Hindoo chalaki shows. We were discussing British and their way to Hindoo Land was through its eastern ports, precisely because the west was taken over by the Potuguese. The discussion was regarding Parsee making wealth in Surat during British Raj. But, being a stupid tree jumping Hindoo monkey from Hindoo Land, you are only used to jumping into discussions without any context whatsoever.

Behram,

Lets start the debate with no objectiobale language either from ur or my side.

What ur point?

What`s this Hindoo Land and what that connote?

Ur trip to Bombay in 1970 shud not be the basis for ur commennts now. Does that mean to say that all taxi users in Bombay were Pakistanis? Do u have any formal education??

Moghals under Akber were looking east for prsoperity? Was that Pak history? The reality was that Bengal posting were hated by all Moghal Governors. That was kinda punishment posting. Thats the true picture. If u read the books on India u wud know a place like Surat was burstling with traders from the Middle east and later by Europeans. Calcutta became prominent after the British settled there.

Prosperity in India was in Gujarat (for many centuries). Gujarat was the surplus province under Mughals. Gujaratis were known mercantile civilisation since the times of Indus Civilisation.

>>>If Parsee were prosperous in Gujrat, then surely the British would have first ventured towards the western shores of India. But they didn`t.<<<

U dont the alphabets of history. THATS LOUD AND CLEAR FROM THE ABVE PARAGRAPH.

Parsees were good slaves to British and loyal Indians at the same time. They changed as they imitated British. Their growth was coterminus with the growth of British in India and that of Bombay city.

U dont have points but cling around the foolish/boorish phrases like Hindoo Land and poverty in Bombay. If u dont know, 1/3rd of the slum dwellers in Bombay are Muslims 9native & Bangladeshi). Even Shiv Sena uses Urdu leaflets to attarct these voters. I dont know if u are mocking the poor people or poverty of the poor Hindus+Muslims.

If that was the level of ur logic and arguments......we better bicker at old levels i.e abuses.

Ref behram1 #451

Man, your understanding of history makes the average Pakistani look like Arnold Toynbee!

[East India Company was formed in Bengal, precisely because Nawab Siraj-ud-daula, and his sultanat knew how to develop prosperity amongst its masses.]

East India Company was formed in London as a trading company to trade with India and the Far East.

[There was no hindoo ruler anywhere for British traders to come except the east coast of India. If Parsee were prosperous in Gujrat, then surely the British would have first ventured towards the western shores of India. But they didn`t. Precisely because those Gujjus were just jumping around trees like monkey. And for all that they had developed ``tarro`` a nauseating drink that could only be extracted before noon to have any affect.]

When the British petitioned Jehangir for permission to open a trading post (they called it a ``factory``.... factory did not mean a manufactory where things were manufactured but a warehouse from where factors could trade....) the Moghul Emperor gave them permission to open one in Surat. I know the average Pakistani`s knowledge of geography is smaller than what can be contained in a gnat`s brain but -- and this information is going to strain your brain -- Surat is in Gujarat and not in Bengal.

The earliest trading posts of the Portuguese were also located along the Western coast of India... at Diu, Daman and Goa.

Parsees bribed their way on to Hindoo Land. Here is what a Parsee writes from Hindoo Land:

[Though this story might belong to the realm of unrecorded myth, like all good myths, somewhere embedded in it is the `ring` of truth. Orthodox Parsis believe that it was actually a gold ring that was dropped into the milk, not a spoonful of sugar. ``You see sugar dissolves and we have always maintained our own identity. But the gold ring showed Jadhav Rana that we will not assimilate, at the same time we will not make the milk overflow and yet we will also enhance it.``

Whether it was, a spoonful of sugar or a ring of gold , permission to settle was granted by Jadhav Rana on four conditions. The strangers had to adopt the local language Gujarati and give up their own language Persian, their women had to dress as the local women in saris, the men had to give up their weapons and their marriage ceremonies had to be held in the dark.]

http://www.parsijourney.com/chapters/intro/intro.html

Wah, rah, wah, with these wanna-be Hindoos intellectual from Hindoo Land. Heads they win, and tails I lose. What sort of a rubbish theory is this that even the Newsweek was not able to capture the autism in these Hindoos from Hindoo Land?

Mughals under Akbar, and afterwards were all looking eastward, mostly because there was trade and prosperity. Bengal was under the rele of muslim Nawab Siraj-ud-daula. East India Company was formed in Bengal, precisely because Nawab Siraj-ud-daula, and his sultanat knew how to develop prosperity amongst its masses.

There was no hindoo ruler anywhere for British traders to come except the east coast of India. If Parsee were prosperous in Gujrat, then surely the British would have first ventured towards the western shores of India. But they didn`t. Precisely because those Gujjus were just jumping around trees like monkey. And for all that they had developed ``tarro`` a nauseating drink that could only be extracted before noon to have any affect.

It was not until mid-1820`s that the British invaded Sindh, and defeated the Talpurs. After that they invited the small time businesses of Parsees and Goan Christians to Karachi Saddar area, to help British soldiers.

The Parsee businesses were successful inspite of a the caste laden Hindoo society of Hindoo Land.

Re: # 449

Pl read the opening sentence in 449 as :

I DONT abuse anybody without a reason. ....

i/o

I am in a habit of abusing anybody without a reason.

Okhla,

I am in a habit of abusing anybody without a reason. I am open to criticism as long as it`s worded appropriately. We are not North Koreans to hide our bad and show-off the brighter ones. The tirade of this Neuter must be met with similar language. No more, no less.

Warrier,

U are right that Parsis got their wealth under the British. The website on Pasris www.parsijourney.com gives the full account of their history in India.

++++

I lived in Gujarat and I came across many Parsis. I never find this more incongruous than reading the posts of this Neuter who is a gigantic disgrace on all Parsis.

My landlord in Halol (Panchmahal) is a bus driver. His brother was a well-to-do farmer. His nephew is a house-pet whereas his wife works for a flour-mill as if she`s the sole breadwinner.

In my personal study I met a Parsi family living in Sanjan. There are less than 4 families living in Sanjan as of now. I also visited Sanjan bandar to see for myself the actual landing of the first batch. There is no specific spot that can be identified with their landing but there`s a pillar erected to commemorate the landing of Parsis in India but that`s located in Sanjan town.

It`s only a name (i.e Sanjan bandar), btw. There`s no bandar as such but a creek (bone-dry now) from Umargam, out of hundreds of such creeks into Arabian sea from west coast of India. Persistent enquiries revealed that Parsis came to Sanjan by coastal navigation but not by a high sea navigation.

I was told the 4 families that live in Sanjan may not be the descendents of the first batch that arrived in Sanjan, coz the first batch in Sanjan was raided by the Muslims as well. The current history is an evidence that the Sanjan bunder area is being inhabited by Muslims only. Parsis fled Sanjan and lived in hill-caves of the west coast until they felt it safer to return. That means they were forced to live as cavemen for 12 more years.

That was followed by waves of immigration. The Indian Parsis racorded the history and there`s literature with photographic description of their flight from one place to the other in India.

++++

I give below the appropriate passgaes that wud give the true picture of Indian Parsis:

Source: http://www.parsijourney.com/chapters/intro/intro2.html

>>>They built a fire temple, installed with due ceremony the holy fire which they called the Iranshah, the King of Iran; lived largely peaceful, obscure existences in various villages and towns of Gujarat as farmers, weavers and carpenters.<<<<

>>>>Unhampered by caste prejudices, Surat provided an ideal opportunity for Parsis to engage in occupations that they had never attempted before. Farmers became traders and chief native agents, carpenters became shipbuilders.

An adventurous few left Surat and moved south to Bombay, then only a set of islands, in the wilderness. Here, they acted as brokers between the Indians and the Portuguese. They were in Bombay when it was ceded by Portugal to England in 1665 and three years later when the Crown handed over the island to the East India Company, Parsis were already a presence.
......
......

The East India Company had grand plans for Bombay. They had visions of making this settlement a vibrant trading and commercial centre. In order to do so they needed to attract Indian traders, merchants and craftsmen to settle in and develop this frontier land. The terms they offered to native communities were generous and to an immigrant community like the Parsis must have seemed almost heaven-sent.<<<<<

++++++++++

Re: # 441
Behram

I am aware of the Parsi high priest being at Akbar`s court. However that doesn`t mean anything other than the fact that Akbar liked to surround himself with people of all religions.

J N Tata went to Jamshedpur to construct a steel plant. Parsis started making their money in Surat and Bombay first.



Tata was not the first rich Parsi.

Thanks

Re: # 446 by okhla99 on November 24, 2006 9:11am PT

Dear Okla,

I have a different take on this corruption issue that only a lot of Hindoos from Hindoo Land seem to have. As you must be aware of the constant drum beat that Hindoo Land has created a huge middle class. What is not mentioned in this rhetoric is that most have achieved this level of wealth through deceiving the regular masses, and not through contributing to the well being of the society. For example, in the mid-1970`s George Fernandez was the President of Bombay Cab Driver`s Association. He later on became the Defence Minister, and was caught for his fraud. This is all what Hindoo Land is all about. Of course, the parents of these folks who visit regularly on Chowk are also guilty of being a liar, trickster, and fraudsters. Otherwise, how in the world can an employee who makes less than Rs. 1,000.00 per month be able to send their children to schools in the US.

Heck, is that not why people from Hindoo Land took refuge in the Middle East, to earn a decent living? All throughout Shah of Iran`s reign, Hindoos had infested Iran searching for meaningful living, and that was only 27 years ago. Now can a corrupt society like Hindoo Land create such a blown horn middle class. Of course, this is the cheater`s class, which they erroneously call a middle class.

Just look at their country and you will be amazed at how dilapidated their social structure is. They are still killing for lack of dowry. And do you consider that a social value of some middle class society. Heck, if you go to Mumbai, even till this day, there are cows running the street, and people are squatting on the rail road tracks. And this is exactly what I saw in the mid-1970`s. Their taxis are always empty, because most people can not afford to take a Taxi. I was considered a well-to-do-Pakistani, because I travelled by Taxis, wherever I traveled in that slum of Byculla, Bombay. All they had was bus transport system and train etc., and most people would use such mass transportation. Why? Because they could not afford it. How many additional miles of rail lines has Bombay Electric Supply Transport (BEST) developed after what they got from the English? Very little. The reason being these corrupt souls who were supposedly working as an employee of some engineering outfit were busy cheating the day light out of ordinary citizenry.

And that is the fact.

{And yes, I have met a number of intelligent and decent Hindus too.
But not on Chowk.}

Of course, not on Chowk, and there is a reason for that. Those who regularly visit Chowk from the Hindoo Land, just come be pompous and denigrate anything to do with Pakistan. And I for one, will give them back, where it hurts them to the best of my ability.

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 445

Dear Behram,

A lot of Pakistanis also share identical characteristics of corruption, west-aping and other coefficients that you have been consistently associating with Hindus alone. A large number of
shortcomings in both countries/societies are common.

And yes, I have met a number of intelligent and decent Hindus too.
But not on Chowk.

Re: # 443 by okhla99 on November 23, 2006 11:14pm PT

Okla, where did you ever find an intelligent Hindoo?

They might have gotten some kind of a degree, and that is all they have. They were raised by Indian parents who were a bonafide member of the cheater`s class. Back in the early 50`s and 60`s this group of people became employees of some corporation or became a babujee in some government employment. And then they learned the trick of office politics and were unscrupulous in cheating the unsuspecting masses. The recent figure of Black Money in India is somewhere closer to 50%. This cheating class are sending their sons and daughters to another unsuspecting society like the west, and they are once again using the same tricks of cheating this society as well.

These people from Hindoo Land were disliked in Africa, primarily because of their ability to cheat the local economy. People from the cheater`s class have no shame.

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 442 by krishna_abcd on November 23, 2006 8:33pm PT

Dear Kaura Demag Lord Krishna:

Aap ka demag ka bhi koi jawab nahin? Granted some fled Persia when the recently converted muslims were kicking @ss all over the Mesopotamia. The Persians got routed all over the Persian empire, but it did not happen in one or two weeks. It must have taken years to get this accomplished, and most of the refugee called themselves as Parsees. This means people from the province of Pars, which is much further away from the southwest corner where Arabs reside.

These days people for the most part have become economic refugees. But, in those days going from one part of the world to another was never very easy, and there was no World Organizations. Besides coming to a new strange land, would also be unwelcome for the locals. Except of course the new comers are from a rich country, eh! Why do you think that ugly Hindoos from Hindoo Land are always drooling over an Anglo American? huh!

Also, where did this Hindoo raja`s territory started and where did it end? Was there ever a geographical boundary assigned? or were these people like animals they would roam around wherever they could?

Why is there a legend that fleeing Parsees promised this raja that they will never convert any locals Hindoo away from their Hindoo religion? Even till this day, Persians by their very nature do not like to associate with ugly Hindoos. But, in the very olden days, before Paul mad conversion a popular game amongst politicians, most people stayed amongst the people they were born in.

But, Lord Krishna, you are a complete choutia, and you know that. Deflecting discussion to other issues would not glorify your Hindoo Land`s chaotic history. Heck, even ALexander got sick and died in your stinking land. Did he not?

Please continue with your diatribe, because it is fun to humiliate those from Hindoo Land. Shortly, we will have autistic Hindoos and bipolar hindoos typing their ill gotten knowledge, and exposing for all once again how unenlightened Hindoos have always been.

Respectfully submitted,

Yaar,

The way you guys hijack all topics to naked Pakistan bashing and Muslim bashing is
disgusting. If you all are so intelligent as you claim to be, kindly keep the discussion within
civilised limits.

Arjun and Krishna are particularly vitriolic. Ranjit appeared rational in the beginning but soon succumbed. VRV, Devkant and Monto have all degenerated to the same level. Behram is now plumbing new depths.

Tell me, do you achieve anything by this???

Intellectually, you appear to be closer to the mad mullahs than to intelligent rational
debaters. If educated, intelligent Indians and Pakistanis cannot engage in civilised debate, why should we blame our Mullahs, Militaries or Politicians????

I Know I am going to get a lot of ``But he started it...`` or ``But first he....`` or ``He
always....``. But seriously, guys, think.

Let us all strive to improve the quality of debate.

#440 by behram-baba (P.E.)

[Nevertheless, the refuge was granted not because of some goodness of Raja`s heart. The refuge was achieved due to the enormous wealth the fleeing Persians had. Throughout history in cases of war only the rich can afford to be refugees in some other land. They came by boats to Sanjan, and only the rich would be able to afford such expeditions. ]

The hated Hindoos of Hindooland should note that other than being a professional septic-tank cleaning contractor, behram-baba (P.E.) is also an amateur historian.

Yes, it may be true that behram-baba has absolutely no proof that the desperate and miserable refugees who fled their homeland to preserve their faith from the hands of the ever-tolerant Mooslums had no little pieces of gold, silver or diamonds in their miserable bags and baggages (India had the biggest diamond mines of those times) that the Indian king fell for. But behram-baba (P.E.) has used his brain (stuffed with septic-tank residues) to apply some P.E.-grade logic. I mean, look around you. Filthily rich refugees froim Bangladesh pouring into the erstwhile hated Hindooland. Refugees from other Mooslum-countries like North Africa pouring into countries like France with gold bullions and pigeon-egg-sized diamonds bursting out of their pockets.

Everywhere in the world, whenever you see refugees, think ``mucho dinero``!

It is not for nothing that behram-baba is a honorary member of the Mentally Disadvantaged Society in Austin, Texas. Hindoos from Hindooland have got NOTHING on behram-baba. Why, only the other day in midtown Austin, behram-baba (P.E.) was doing a Paki version of ``You can`t touch this`` along with the rest of his septic-tank cleaning crew.

Abbey Hindoos from Hindooland! You think you can touch this? Eh?

Re: # 438 by swarrier on November 23, 2006 2:26pm PT

Swarrier, you could use some clarifications.

Parsees got prominence in Mughal King Akbar`s rule, and had the High Priest as a member of his darba. They achieved their industries near present day Bengal. Actually, Tata Steel Mill is in Jamshedpur, which is closer to Bengal than to Gujrat.

Re: # 438 by harimau on November 23, 2006 5:02pm PT

{When they met the local raja and asked for permission to live amongst his subjects, the raja is supposed to have shown them a full glass of milk, meaning there wasn`t space for any more people. The Parsis replied by putting sugar in the milk indicating they would mingle with the locals and add sweetness. That is how they won the raja`s permission to stay on in his lands.}

And how far and vast this raja`s lands were supposed to be? Being a local raja of Sanjan is one thing, but taking on the role of being a raja all of Hindoo Land is a bit too far fetched.

All of this is good for the Parsee, and they can continue to pay their homage to the Hindoo Land, but can this view be applied to those Zoroastrians who were never a refugee to the Hindoo Land?

Nevertheless, the refuge was granted not because of some goodness of Raja`s heart. The refuge was achieved due to the enormous wealth the fleeing Persians had. Throughout history in cases of war only the rich can afford to be refugees in some other land. They came by boats to Sanjan, and only the rich would be able to afford such expeditions.

Ref zeemax #436

[... ``allowed them to set foot on India`` ? Are you kidding? You should remember India was little more than a big dog with a lot of fleas on its back a thousand years ago, and the zoroastrians same as others were just another flea on its back after fall of the sassanids.]

The Zorastrians may have been yet another flea but they nevertheless had to seek permission from the local raja to live in his lands.

When they met the local raja and asked for permission to live amongst his subjects, the raja is supposed to have shown them a full glass of milk, meaning there wasn`t space for any more people. The Parsis replied by putting sugar in the milk indicating they would mingle with the locals and add sweetness. That is how they won the raja`s permission to stay on in his lands.

When you go back to 279 AD when the first jews landed near Cochin, they approached the local raja for permission to live as his subjects. They were permitted to do so and the leader of that group was given special privileges such as the right to carry a ceremonial umbrella. This grant was engraved on copper plates and is still preserved by Cochin`s Jewish community.

At all times, those who sought refuge in India asked for and received permission. They didn`t show up one day and live amongst the locals without getting protection from the local raja.

Re: # 436
Zeemax
A few clarifications. The Parsis/Zoroastrians gained prominence under the English and not the Mughals. They were mostly farming communities until they moved back to Surat and started working with the British in their factories and workshops. They remained loyal to the British which is why they were offered responsible positions in Bombay.

Let us say euphemistically that they were trusted by the British unlike other Indians who were seen as guileful because they didn`t quite see eye to eye with the British.

All that notwithstanding they certainly sought refuge in India and it was granted to them. And they have done a lot in India in turn.

It seems mitochondrial DNA analysis shows that the Parsis are genetically closer to Gujaratis than they are to the modern Iranians/Persians. So there must definitely have been some intermarrying with the local populace.

Taking the time off a busy thanksgiving schedule to bring this thread back to the topic.
I am glad that some Pakistanis are already learning a few good things in India. Jairamji ki. I think this is the positive side of Indian culture that we should learn about. At least I know I will be safe when I go to Pakistan and have little fun on the side:)


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4119982.stm

Pakistani sex workers visit India




A group of Pakistani sex workers have visited the red light district in the Indian city of Calcutta to discuss safe sex practices and combating Aids.

It is the first ever visit by Pakistani sex workers to any red light district in India.
The BBC`s Subir Bhaumik in Calcutta says over the last decade, sex workers there have formed a powerful organisation to protect their rights.
The have successfully improved their health standards.
They have also organised campaigns to raise awareness on preventing HIV/Aids.
The group of sex workers from the Pakistani city of Hyderabad visited Sonagachi - a sprawling red light district in north Calcutta.
``They have come to the right place because we are the most organised group of sex workers anywhere in Asia,`` Swapna Gayen, who heads the Calcutta sex workers` association, told the BBC.
Safe sex
They were briefed by local sex workers on how they have managed to combat sexually transmitted diseases and HIV.

``It was unbelievable to the delegation that Sonagachi`s sex workers refuse sex without a condom even in the face of physical torture,`` Majid Rani, who led the Pakistani team, is quoted as saying by AFP.
She said this was unthinkable in Pakistan and sex workers there would often be forced to have sex without condoms.
The visiting Pakistani women also visited a crèche for the children of sex workers and a consumer cooperative.
But Ms Gayen said they were particularly interested in brothel management and anti-Aids programmes.
Pakistan has 2,300 HIV-positive people, according to official figures.
But the World Health Organisation estimates that the figure could be closer to 80,000.

Jai ramji ki....

#433 by muqaddam re Behram

....should remember that India is the country which gave refuge to his forefathers, who were running from tyranny in Iran and allowed them to set foot on India and treat it as their own motherland. `ehsaan faramosh` or `namak haraam`.

... ``allowed them to set foot on India`` ? Are you kidding? You should remember India was little more than a big dog with a lot of fleas on its back a thousand years ago, and the zoroastrians same as others were just another flea on its back after fall of the sassanids. They gained prominence as merchants only during the Muslim Mughal rule sometime in 17th century when the Bombay Presidency was established, while hinuds continued to swing around trees. It was the Parsis who established the stock exchanges, the steel mills, the large scale industries and so forth. So who is `ehsaan faramosh` or `namak haraam`?

Hinuds never owned macacia. All the fleas owned the dog.

#433 by muqaddam on November 22, 2006 12:38pm PT
``All in all it appears that he has to outdo the Pakistanis in hating India and all things Indian because that is the only way he can show that he is a true Pakistani. ``

talk about stealing words from someone`s mouth.

however, let me also add that given all the venom he is spewing here on indians, i am 110% sure that in reality this guy may be the opposite of what he is trying to project himself here.

rgds,

devkant.

Only if in exchange, the Hinjras and the khusralsa be allowed to admit in the madrasas....

Be-haram(i) is again throwing a lot of stink. Here`s an old post.


Janab Tatti( due to his obsession with shitters by the railroad, if he is so enamoured by the sight, why not build himself a hut by the railroad and enjoy all the shitting scenes closely)) a.k.a. Mr `Lump of Shit` alias Behram 1 who( I now learn) is a Parsee, belongs to that clan of Iranians who thought it more dignified in seeking refuge in India than submitting to thoee marauding hordes who were laying waste to that beautiful land of Iran so that they could keep their faith from extinction.
Looking at his pedigree, why Janab Tatti`s posts are so venomously anti India is hard to understand.
He was born in Pakistan but speaks Gujarati at home like all Parsees, goes to the Agiary(Fire Temple) and when he dies his remains will be fed to vultures on a tower of silence. Most of his relatives are probably in India and thriving in a society that respects all religions, while he or may be his parents decided to stay on in Pakistan, out of compulsion obviously, because there is not a single Parsee who would have voluntarily opted for Pakistan after partition and moved to that part of the country.
All in all it appears that he has to outdo the Pakistanis in hating India and all things Indian because that is the only way he can show that he is a true Pakistani.

Mr Lump of should remember that India is the country which gave refuge to his forefathers, who were running from tyranny in Iran and allowed them to set foot on India and treat it as their own motherland. It is sad that while most Parsees have excelled in all fields and done their adopted motherland proud, we have here an ungrateful descendent of this great race who has nothing but hate for the land of his forefathers` adoption. He can only be described as a blot on the legacy of his clan and the only word to describe such people is `ehsaan faramosh` or `namak haraam`.

Godspeed to him.

Re: # 431

Yes, but there were two ways to handle the beast - there always are more than one way to address the problem. Americans, even though they understood the nature of beast very well, chose to destroy the beast - the very act that caused the beast to come into existence in the first place. The beast has proven itself to be industructible.

#426 amrikans were naiively happy to leave afganistan to taliban/pakistan as CAR pipeline sentrys..but the keeda of embassy-bombings, USS-Cole followed by 9-11 made them see the true nature of the beast.

Urstuly: You make some plausible points. But they are nowhere close to the whole truth, and as such are misleading.

1. Mining as a source of wealth creation: Scandinavian metals would have been useless without the Industrial Revolution where UK led the way, since that revolution created the demand for such metals. Similarly, Saudi oil would be useless without demand for it created by industry, since camels dont drink oil. And without wealth, there is no welfare state.

2. Taliban as a source of political stability: First your facts are wrong - post-Soviet Afghanistan was hardly a paradise of political stability, since there was a civil war going on. Second, even if there had been political stability and economic progress (which was definitely not the case), the taliban system was an undemocratic one. Regardless of what you think, Allah did not make maulvis his spokesmen on earth and in a civilized society one group of individuals does not claim an inherent right to impose its views on others.

#426 by Urstruly

My friend, how many people will see what you`re saying through the opaque goggles of their prejudice?

Wonderful post. Thanks.

Re: # 407
Stuka
Thanks for setting things right. I remembered the college in Dadar and I totally missed SNDT. I had a friend who attended the college at Dadar , she used to try out her concoctions on us.
I have no beef with steaks, I like them. Washed down with a bit of St.Emilion. We always offer the first toast to the gods, they liked their tipple too. -)

Re: # 344

Placement committee will provide their grandmother`s a$$ if it means getting the big companies on Day 1. Please don`t patronise me, I am basing this on first-hand accounts.

Madni

I am quite aware of Viking history of Scandanavia; but we are talking about the welfare states that they have now and how they established them. The fact of the matter is that, as long as they were barbarians of the north neither they got rich nor they were able to establish welfare states. They were only able to do that when they started mining their precious metals and became civilized traders.

Similarly, in Afghanistan when there was lawlessness and war but drug and weapons trade was on top, no one got rich except a few drug lords. The peace only came when law and justice was enforced by Talibans. The true indicator of that is the reduction of Afghan refugees to half the number that during the war years i.e. from about 3.8 million down to 1.8 millions. In those days a Pakistani truck carrying goods could travel from Landi Kotal to Mizar Shareef unhindered.

Imagine that, if Americans were wise enough and didn`t push Taliban against the wall, they could have a well protected oil pipeline from central Asia down to Arabian sea - a dream that Russians have dreamt for centuries. All the precious metals that Western mining firms are extracting from Central Asian states today like there is no tomorrow could have a safe and short passage to the rest of the world. The whole region would have been peaceful and prosperous and everyone from Westerners, Americans and indegenous people would have benefited from the resources of the region. But with their blindening hatered West has pushed this region into chaos for the next 4-5 decades at least and Afganistan is proving itself to be the graveyard of the empires once again.

The point is, that if war had not happened, and all development projects would have gone forward sans American stupidity, Taliban would have created another enviable Muslim Welfare state in the region - which they partially did even when they did not have anything.

#424 true. let us hope that humanity will evolve out of this stage as well. just as it evolved out of the raw-meat eating stage a few thousand years ago.

Tahmed sahib,

Ahmed does have a point as have you. Any race which has got the opportunities and means has tried to indulge in some form of imperialism.

Regards

mr. madani: what saying you of northern barbarian peoples part of truth is, but not is the whole truth, excuse me to contradict you my dear sir.

truth you is telling when you writing that northern barbarian viking people plundering and forcing poor local women to saying: ``Why King, Viking??``. but truth also that viking people (frisian, and later danes in 5th century AD) settling in UK. much of english is viking words (e.g. sky, skill, and in fact all `sk` words in english). and english is now world language now, sir, as you know very well indeed. so northern barbarian give birth to world language, sir. chinaman spea englee. indian babu speaking very very much in english and making it hinglish. ze france people very unhappy, but say ``au revoir`` to francais and speaking in engleesh. all people speaking viking language, sir. and so please viking people barbarian?? no.

king charles invade russia, you tell truth. but arab people invade africa and india and europe. so, is arab people barbarian sir?? i beg to say ``not!!`` to this question sir.

also, finn support hitler because they thinking sir that hitler less evil than stalin. ha! ha! but finnish people very nice people sir. not nazis. sometimes nice people make mistake and support wrong side.

i hope you agreement with me, mr. madani.

Re: # 420

Really these Northern Barbarians were too uncivilised at that time to colonise. Colonise means tohave means of production in their control and there is wealth genration which is needed to colonise were both lacking) Can afghans colonise Pakistan too difficult for uncivilesed Afghan society, are they Barbaric, yes they are.

Ahmed Madani sahib,

(Please excuse for my spelling and english and grammer, english refinement is in process all time. )

Don`t worry. It would seem that like me, you too haven`t had the benefit of getting educated from Ivy League colleges like LUMS, NUST etc.

Regards

Re: # 419
#401 by Urstruly on November 21, 2006 2:10pm PT
Re: # 398

``Thank you for mentioning Saudi Arabia, which is very close to what a Muslim welfare state should be. The only caveate here is their economic system i.e. 95% of their GDP is based on oil but so was once that of Scandanevian states who emerged as the top resources for the metal and other mined commodities in 17th, 18th, and 19th century. As a matter of fact the 90% of the post renaissance industrial revolution needs for metals was fulfilled by the Scandanevian countries and that is how they established their welfare states.

``Please keep in mind that no Scandanevian country has ever colonized a foreign land. ``

Dear Mr. Yours truely......The last statement is not factually not right. The scandanevians have been barbabarins of norths. Northern people deviod of suffient sun and wealth were famous as plunders riding on seas as sea devils. They use to annually raid norther Europe specially english islands and they use to plunder and kill people and loot and load stuff on ships and go back.Vickings as they call use to go on annual plunder in their ships. England/scotland people faught and finally after centuries raids were stopped.
King Charles of Sweadon was well know as Warrior king and absorbimg terrotaries. Peter the great Czar of Russia took inspiration from King Charles of Sweedon it is said.
In second war finland and Sweedon played worst tricks. Sweedon sold enormous arms to germans as their steel plants and cannon and gun factories were bumming all around providing arms to German armies. They sold at same time some equipment to AngloAmericans. Finland had full sympathy for nazies and allied with german armies against russia before full fledge german tank drive against Russia started. After they got peace treaty with S.Union they indirectly aided Nazies in encirclement of Leningrad by providing help to Germans. Then they sought treat with russia out of fear when reversal eventually came after defeat of german armies in north in breaking of sieze of leningrad, defeat at central front at Moscow and and in south at stalingrad. Fins were in difficult situation but later able get treat giving them peace. But to make such statement is right in broad contest.
Good afternoon.
Please excuse for my spelling and english and grammer, english refinement is in process all time.

Maulana Urstruly (pbuh),

(The Talibans were the myth breakers. They proved that a just welfare state is also possible when you have nothing in your hand. )

I am sure you would want a Talib state in Pakistan. Rest assured you are not alone. All the Hanuds on chowk would wish you Godspeed.

Regards

#387 by behram1

[Kahan thain aap? Humain tau aap ki layhni thee. ]


behram-baba,

What`s the point doing ``layhni thee`` on Chowk. If you have to do something, join your jehadi brothers and cross the border into Hindoo land. Hindoo jawans are waiting shoot you on the spot like a dog. :)))

And pretty soon, if the American authorities find out that you are a jehadi supporter, while begging for and living on the scraps of charity that the good white people throw your way, you would be on your way back to your Pakiland in no time. :)

So cool down, beta. Go clean some septic tanks.

:))

By the way, did you hear about the Indo-US Nuclear deal?

Very unfair, no?

:)

#309 by CoolAL

[God, people like this Dost Mitter dude make my stomach turn.

It appears that he was appaled at Behram for what he was saying about Hindoos(sic) and Hindooland(sic). However, he held back his comments all this time so that he could find something to ``balance`` it against -- you know the good old zero sum game. ]

CoolAL,

I wanted to make this post before, but didn`t have time.

When I read your post, my first reaction was, oh, so I`m not the nly one that noticed this. All these months, while behram-baba has been foulmouthing Indians, he had nothing to say. But the moment behram-PE gets cornered by the Hindus, his Moosla-unity bug bites him in the a$$, and he is compelled to give a 50-50 portrayal of the whole thing.

The thing with recent converts (especially recent Muslim converts) is that they are the most virulent of all. This is because they have something to prove to themselves. That they did not make a mistake. They also feel that they have lost something, but know that it is forever out of their reach (for fear of being beheaded by Urstruly-kind of Muslims who do not try to change the Koran to make it more respectable).

So they take out their latent rage on the Hindus - the community they cannot be a part of anymore. And this becomes more outwardly visible as time goes on.

The inevitable end-result of thinking with your penis and ``converting````.

#410
Where does it say in your cut and paste that Taliban ran a drug-free welfare state where Afghans were happy and well fed as Urstruly claims? Where does your article contradict my assertion that Taliban said they were not responsible for the Afghan population because Allah would provide?

Sadna,

Dont u think that Hizra Paaki is giving his lefthanded compliments to the ISI-run Taliban+AQ`s war in Afghanistan?


+++++++++

Indians,

BeHaram is a true Neuter and a true BeSharam coz he has stomach to give his posts again after his shining nangaa bum was shown to the Chowkies.

Effonjee need to be told of this:

India is a Hindu majority country but not a Hindu country. India is a multi-cultural, mutli-religious, multi-lingual nation. His education in Pakistan had done a great damage to his cognitive abilities. May be he too had copious amounts of sewerage treated paalak eaten in his childhood as it was the custom in Pakistan. The remnants are refusing to go away till his body is eaten by vultures (as per Parsi faith system).

HP # 410

Tell us how do Afghan warlords/criminals are any different from graden variety Pakistani politician or even some Indian politicians.

Urstruly#391:

I do not know about the Omar inspiration for Scandinavian countries; other than that I am in general agreement with your post. Indian education system does not lay any emphasis on character building. Gone are the days in your parents` and even my time when teachers regardless of their religious identities believed imparting education to be their ``dharma``. How can today`s teachers build character when they themselves seek ``oopar ki aamdani`` by agressively pursuing parents to send their children to their after-school coaching class to learn what they are supposed to teach the students during school time?

As for Saudi Arabia, I cannot agree with you. Yes, they have created a welfare state but only for a fraction of their population. The welfare benefits are denied to those - mostly Muslims and even Arabs - who are not citizens of Saudi Arabia. As you know, that citizenship is extremely hard to get.

Re: # 401

Tell me why growing and selling opium is exactly Islamic thing to do.

#409 by ranjit on November 21, 2006 4:24pm PT

I`ll bet he claimed refugee status saying he was persecuted in the land of the pure....

#397 Sadna,

Unlike you I hate to cut and paste articles but here is something that will open your eyes to the realities in Afghanistan. Mrs. Malalai Joya is the only person in Afghanistan who supports secularism.
The reality in Afghanistan is entirely different than your single track mind. Afghanistan is still very much a taliban country. The US failed to push enough buttons in that area to change the situation there.
Read this and cry like many khasis do...that will help you get a life...


KABUL, Afghanistan -- One of Afghanistan`s leading members of parliament, Mrs. Malalai Joya, warns that the current U.S. policy in Afghanistan is virtually certain to lead to another 9/11.
Joya has a unique perspective. In 2003, she blew the whistle on warlords and drug traffickers whom she said were being incorporated into the Afghan government. Ever since, she has received death threats on a daily basis.

``The circle — of terrorism, drug lords, and warlords ... will be complete when the Taliban comes in,`` she warns.

Any interview with Malalai Joya involves an element of risk. The hazards begin with a taxi driver who doesn`t know where the parliament building is. He stops to ask directions from a fruit vendor, then races down one of Kabul`s dusty roads past half-collapsed buildings that are riddled with bullet holes.

``Taliban!`` he yells, by way of explanation. ``Much fighting here!``
Upon arriving at the parliament building, I`m escorted into an unmarked car and informed that the meeting will be elsewhere. I`m driven to a house somewhere in Kabul.

A Prisoner of Fear
Bodyguards search me while other armed men wait outside the door. When I finally meet Joya, she apologizes profusely. Both her house and her office have been attacked, she explains, and she sleeps in a different place every night.

``For me it is torture to have these bodyguards,`` she says. ``But I have to have them while fighting against the warlords and gangs, and especially since I`m young. If I want to do something for my people, I have to stay alive and it`s painful. But on the other hand, if I look at all the people that live under bad security conditions in Afghanistan, I at least have protection.``

An attractive woman, smaller than expected and just 27 years old, Joya`s dark eyes belie an honest intensity that has won her both loyal friends and mortal enemies. She has made it her mission to help her country fulfill the promises of fair and just governance made after the Taliban were overthrown.

The so-called ``Northern Alliance,`` a coalition of regional and religious organizations, governed Afghanistan from 1992 to 1996 before one of its member groups, the Taliban, took over the government. After a U.S.-led coalition in 2001 ousted the Taliban regime in response to the 9/11 attacks, Northern Alliance figures were appointed to government positions despite their extensive and well-documented history of human rights abuses.
And from Joya`s perspective, that`s the biggest problem Afghanistan now faces.

Malalai Joya says the former Mujahideen - ``warlords who have now learned how to talk about democracy and women and how to wear a suit and a tie`` - are no better than the Taliban: ``Every country that wants to prove itself as real and honest friends of the Afghan people must stop following the policy of the U.S., because this is not a real democracy and this is not a real war on terror. At one hand they are saying `we fight the Taliban` and on the other we have members of parliament who are Taliban. The only way is to stop this policy. If they don`t stop this policy, I am sure that one day there will be another September 11. Another September 11 will happen — because they are like the Taliban [and] they will act like the Taliban.``

Keeping the Warlords at Bay

Joya says, ``Look, they want again an office of `vice and virtue,` just like the Taliban had, and which they used as a pretext for their crimes. This is the reason we want a secular government. With a secular government, they cannot commit their crimes in the name of Islam. Or in the name of Jihad. Until these warlords, these drug lords, who right now have the support of the U.S. and its allies in our country, until they become powerless, our people can never hope for democracy, women rights, human rights, and especially security in Afghanistan.``

As one example of the approach that Joya objects to, Sen. Bill Frist, R-Tenn., while visiting Afghanistan two weeks ago, voiced his support for efforts to bring ``people who call themselves Taliban into a larger, more representative government.``

She says these are the same ``warlords and drug lords [who] committed lots of crimes when they were in power under the name of jihad and even now are committing lots of crimes under the name of jihad and Islam.``

Joya dismisses the current talk about Pakistan supporting the Taliban. That, she says, is a deliberate distraction from what she claims is the real issue: the presence of criminals in the current government and the crimes they commit with impunity.

She says one member of parliament is known to have killed two children and thrown them in a river. Another, she says, used to kidnap people and put them in his personal jail.
``But nobody discusses this inside the parliament,`` she says. ``When I try to discuss it, they threaten me. So I ask you, are these the Pakistan-supported terrorists?``

The people who control parliament also support the Taliban, Joya says.

``I have received reports, for example, that a car loaded with weapons went from Kabul to the Logar province and they were captured. The investigation showed that it belonged to people in power and they wanted to give it to the Taliban,`` she says.
Today there are 31,000 NATO soldiers keeping the peace in Afghanistan as part of the International Assistance Security Force (IASF). The IASF force includes 11,250 soldiers from the United States; 5,200 from Britain; 2,750 from Germany; and 2,100 from the Netherlands, plus forces from 33 other countries.

Willing to Rebuild — But Safely

Joya says Afghans will ``rebuild their country with their bare hands`` as long as there is security, and if the international community stops supporting the ``warlordism government,`` as she calls it. The warlords, she adds, should be brought to justice before the International Criminal Court.
``If they want, they can do this,`` Joya states. She points out that in 2005, a London court convicted former warlord Faryadi Sarwar Zardad for torture and murder.
``Most of these criminals that are now in power were like Zardad`s teachers. He was their student,`` she says.

``I`d like to remind you how easy it was,`` she adds, ``for the U.S. to destroy the government of the Taliban. It was very easy when they wanted it, right after 9/11. And I would like to tell you, and especially those countries around the world that support these criminals who are now in the government, that they have the same ideals as the Taliban. One day, they will do another September 11. They are more dangerous than the Taliban right now because they are in power.``

Re:DrDr #404

[..behram shud make a mocumentary `cultural learnings of AA for make benefit glorious nation of zorastristan`....]

He he!! It gets better and better....

Actually, since Behram claims that he has never worked in a corporation or an university, I wonder how he got his green card. Must be marriage fraud, probably to some latino or black in Texas. That would be in line with his Affirmative Action situation.

#407 by stuka on November 21, 2006 3:38pm PT


Also, as Urstruly mentioned, Indian education system stops at applied knowledge and does not provide ideology :)


your school teaches kabab...

the maulana wants kabab and jihad(and a goat for you know what)....

Swarrier / Zeemax:

``Come to think of it ... hotel management is a great discipline which is somehow taught best in Austria for some reason ... Even though it is vocational too, but teaches a lot of soft skills ... like how to serve a rich relative who happened along when you`re serving tables ... hmmm``

For the record, there isn`t just the one college in Mumbai. There are 15 GOVERNMENT managed ones and umpteen private ones. I am a graduate of the Delhi IHM, the corresponding equal to the Dadar one that Warrier mentioned.

The three year course (I believe now its 4 years) provides all the disciplines (Food Production, Food and Beverage Services, Guest Services and Housekeeping) along with typical business courses like accounting, management, marketing, basic info systems etc. In India (also in Salzburg, Sweden etc) you graduate with enuff technical knowledge to move in to the kitchen or the front of the house side. In US, you basically adopt one stream or the other and graduate as a specialist.

Come to think of it, Hotel Management is one field where India should give scholarships to Pakistanis. Our college was already doing so for Tanzanians etc. When I came to the states as an undergrad transfer, all the Pakistanis were transfers from European schools and yet they were middle class kids who had to scrimp and save. They said Pakistan does not have preoper univ / college level courses.

Also, as Urstruly mentioned, Indian education system stops at applied knowledge and does not provide ideology :)

Well, hotel management is one field which does not even have the pretence of ideology. It is applied knowledge alone and the field also caters to people who have no ideology to speak off. I speak from experience here. Aslo, its one field where Pakistanis will find cultural similarity. I think ours was the only school where cooking beef steaks was part of the curriculum as well as the cafeteria menu. And I cannot imagine potential Jihadi type mixing cocktails and puring wine in beverage class.

#401 by Urstruly on November 21, 2006 2:10pm PT


Why didn`t you immigrate to the glorious islamic welfare state of the taliban rather than coming to the evil empire?

Re: # 394 by ranjit on November 21, 2006 12:38pm PT

Once agian taking refuge with someone with autism eh?

{Come to think of it, we should call behram the ``parsee bhangi`` for his use of affirmative action....no offence to bhangis intended.....}

Ofcourse not because you are yourself a bhangi.

Have you not had enough of your black hiney kicked back to your squatters land that now you are wondering around for some Hindoo support for thos who are bonafied bipolar or that cut&paste autistic idiot, huh.

behram shud make a mocumentary `cultural learnings of AA for make benefit glorious nation of zorastristan`

#401
You really need to get beyond the ISI and drug mafia`s propaganda in the Pak Urdu Press that the Taliban were presiding over happy and well fed citizens in a drug free welfare state. Alternate information which directly contradicting your dearly-held beliefs is readily available all over the place and to seek it is your responsibility as a thinking individual.

#400
How can it be cruel to point out one example where the compassion of God was explicitly incorporated in the workings of the state :)

I may be mistaken but I think in traditional hindoo-ism the ideal raja`s duty to his subjects is part of his own karma/dharma/rap sheet also, in which God may or maynot intercede to help him later.

Re: # 398

Thank you for mentioning Saudi Arabia, which is very close to what a Muslim welfare state should be. The only caveate here is their economic system i.e. 95% of their GDP is based on oil but so was once that of Scandanevian states who emerged as the top resources for the metal and other mined commodities in 17th, 18th, and 19th century. As a matter of fact the 90% of the post renaissance industrial revolution needs for metals was fulfilled by the Scandanevian countries and that is how they established their welfare states. Please keep in mind that no Scandanevian country has ever colonized a foreign land.

Now what Saudis have done with their natural wealth is quite astonishing. The sprawling cities, with sky scrapers, a highway system and other infrastructure; the free health care, free education, pension system, law, and justice all indicate towards a well functioning welfare state which is envied all around the globe. With 20 years of sanctions, Libya has done quite well; and hasd Iran and iraq not engaged in the 10 year conflict, these two countries would have well surpassed saudi arabia by now.

But this wealth of Arabs have created a myth that a welfare state is only possible with an unobstructed source of wealth like oil. The Talibans were the myth breakers. They proved that a just welfare state is also possible when you have nothing in your hand.

1. First of all they established rule of law and justice ina war torn country which was being ravaged by infighting and civil war. Compare that to Americans and Western invaders; with their most horrible war machine they have not been able to establish one day of peace in that country. The bottom line is that it is the justice that establishes peace ina country and not the oppression and heavy handedness.

2. Second, today Afghanistan`s 30% of economy is based on drug smuggling and it provides 90% of world`s drug demand. In Taliban`s time, according to West`s own propaganda machinery in year 1999-2000 the total drug production in whole Afghanistan was 85 kilograms. That was the time when Talibans could have made lot of cash through drugs when they needed it most.

3. The established a system of pensions for widows and stipends for war orphans alongwith those women who had no one left in their families to earn a living; after they established that they forced all streetwalkers to stay at home. West where 75% population is born out of wedlock called that oppression.

4. The established food banks (mostly with the help of Paksitani charities, which was later dubbed as terrorist organizations- Al-Rashid Trust being at the forefront) all around the country where cooked food was distributed two times a day to those who could not afford it.

5. The Taliban time was the only time in history since 1979, when Afghan refugees were going back to their country on their own. At one time the refugee population in Pakistan came down to 1.7 to 1.8 million from 3.8 million since soviet invasion. Today in Pakistan more than 4.5 million of them are again seeking refuge. This indicates that even with the poverty and heavy handedness of Talibans the indeginous people were feeling safe to go back to their homes and make a living.

So yes the Talibans did establish a welfare state according to the standards of poorest countries of the world. They also debunked the myth that a welfare state can only be established when nation is acutely rich.

#397 u can be very cruel some time..

warrier, i must protest, there have been some food related colleges in mumbai for a while...the catering college, the SNDT home-science lab, and Sophia College. plus these schools have little to do with gourmet anything.

but i agree that use of education for filling own and childrens bellys is the best usage ever, esp if the bellys are empty. all other usages are moot.

respectfully submitted.

PS:
I guess for some people, Saudi Arabia is the closest thing to Allah there is in this world.

The rest of us, being without values and hence not being in receipt of bounty from God, actually have to generate wealth by our own efforts before we can spend it on the welfare of our less fortunate compatriots. So if earning our own keep instead of being indebted to Saudi Arabia causes the above-mentioned to call us value-less and compassionless capitalists, so be it.

The Taliban took the idea of the values-driven welfare state to its logical culmination - they said they were not responsible for the Afghan population because Allah would provide.

#395

For example, in Scandanevia, which is the poster child of a what a typical modern welfare state should be, the set of principles that it bases it welfare system upon is still called ``Omar`s law`` - Omar (ra) being the second righteous Caliph of Muslims.

I went out to lunch with a Norwegian friend and informed him how his country was being run according to ``Omar-ian principle`s``. I could deliver his response to you here, but I think ``chowk-staff`` would filter it out.

Re: # 391 Dost

I do not propound a utopia; what I insist upon is the accountability, rule of law, and compassion for your fellow citizen. Yes, West has come close to this utopia, but they are not the pioneers. For example, in Scandanevia, which is the poster child of a what a typical modern welfare state should be, the set of principles that it bases it welfare system upon is still called ``Omar`s law`` - Omar (ra) being the second righteous Caliph of Muslims. So in other words, what was made possible in 7th century AD, has been made possible in this day and age.

But this vision has been stolen from a common Muslim by a corrupt oppressive class. The intelligentia belongs to this class and relentlessly pumps this hopelessness into the minds of the people that a Muslim welfare state is impossible. A deliberately made confused curriculum produces graduates who are mindless, who are immoral, and who do not possess a sense of what is right and what is wrong. I know, more than half of my classmates in Pakistan had a vision and stated objective of becoming corrupt bureucrates or engineers and they actively sought employment in the organizations with ``ooper ki aamdni``. Saddly none had an entreprenuereal mindset; and none was even sure that he would be able to make an honest and halal living after graduation.

On the other hand India has a similar problem. The mindset of an average Indian do not think on the lines of a welfare state. In addition, a vicious upper echelon enforces a heartless and cruel Capitalism where only fittest can survive. If you ask an average Indian, most prominently on this website, about a less fortunate fellow citizen the answer is just a shrug and at the most a tirade about how clumsy the less unfortunate are and how it is their own fault being poor and uneducated; I would present evidence of this fact as Exhibit A, which is the Indian Muslims thread on this website. I know Muslims are an extraordinary case but the mindset encompasses all unfortunate.

Re:arjun2#388

[...Hello Mr Behram D.E.(disadvantaged engineer)... ]

ROTFLMAO!!

Arjun, thats it.....you have now beaten Hamidm......maaza aa gaya!!

Come to think of it, we should call behram the ``parsee bhangi`` for his use of affirmative action....no offence to bhangis intended.....

Urstruly #354

`` In order to cater to this mentality, for the past 60 years, the powers that be and the intelligentia, have only created circumstances that support this mentality. That is the point where ideology comes in and opens up human mind to many possibilities. ``

Explain to me what constructive endeavour has come of the Islamic ideology being taught in the madrassas of Pakistan

`` While on your side, you have no ideology, on our side we have a different problem. Our problem is that even though we have an ideology that says that ``even if a dog dies thirsty at the banks of river Ravi, the president is responsible``, our country is occupied by a corrupt and amoral class that consider itself above any reproach or accountability. This ideology (that 1 bread each) resides in our veins therefore even though it cannot be taken out of us, but it can be corrupted and distorted. Hence the intelligentia and powers that be in our country try to keep nation into a state of confusion and misdirected. This is even worst than not having an ideology at all. Today, an ordinary Pakistani has no dreams and no hopes for a better governance, better life, and a better society. He thinks that the corruption, lawlessness, and oppression is the fait accompli and there is no escape from that. So Pakistan in a sense is not only deprived of the ``vision or awareness`` state of knowledge but it does not even come close to having capable of ``applied knowldge``. The proof of this is that for the past two decades we have not only been ``importing`` finance ministers but even prime ministers for our country. And people of Pakistan take it lying down, because they think that it is fait accompli and nothing can change that - or even worse they don`t even know what can it change into - no vision. ``

You mean to say India has no ideology and Pakistan has an ideology. I might argue say the reverse is true. The only ideology of Pakistani state is survival.

#390 by behram1 on November 21, 2006 11:42am PT


Hello Mr Behram D.E.(disadvantaged engineer)...

you really qualify for the disadvantaged tag based on your limited mental faculties..

Urstruly#354:

``Using this knowledge to say that 2+2=4 Breads is called ``applied knowledge``

....only if the one counting is hungry; for a rich man, it could be 4 Mercs :)

For me, the only idelology that counts is humanism; others have really failed to deliver, no matter how beautiful they appear. Communism failed to deliver nirvana to its practitioners (although I admire what Castro has been able to accomplish in Cuba). As for the ideology you admire, it is not only Pakistani leaders who have failed to provide the needs of a dog by the banks of Ravi, I think that state, if it ever existed, disappeared with the first four caliphs. The Ottoman empire was not able to provide such a state, nor were any of the powerful Mughals. And as far as I know, none of the nearly 60 members of the OIC have been able to do so.

Paradoxically, the only ones who have come close to providing such a state are the Western Capitalist societies that you consider to be morally bankrupt. I would have said that this owes something to the Judeo-Christian tradition of ``You are your brother`s keeper``, except that this is true only of Christian socieities in the West that have embraced the concept of a Welfare society along with being a Capitalist society (incidentally, have you noticed that the US society in particular celebrates capitalism but distrusts capitalists?).

The point I am trying to make is that the only ideology one needs is that of humanism; just as you use the quran as a criterion for judging other holy texts, I use humanism as a criterion for assessing all ideologies, including religious ideologies.


ahmedmadani#19:

Personally only DMji sagecious way put rightly the perspective and thanks for trying to ``calm . DMji it should be Z and J ( let me explain south/hindi belt they they call Garib, Jamindar while in Urdu it is Zamindar and Gharib, that arabic influence, arabic is harsh sounding like German, Russian while look at Bengali it softens they even elliminate ``V`` and relaced by B soft sound, if see on Tv animated arabs shouting death to people look the way they move toungue and hard flat pronouncian, look how arab when angry say MuKHaraban , KH capital is stressed)``


The use of words like sagacious and the knowledge of soft sounds of Bangla and harsh sounds of Arabic, German and Russian is a good evidence that you are a fairly educated person. Whether or not you are a Pakistani, please continue to enlighten us with your wit and wisdom.

Re: # 388 by arjun2 on November 21, 2006 11:07am PT

{sure peemax...consider my post a pro bono lesson in reading comprehension...and reality...the privileged among us must help the less privileged paki cab-drivers, no?}

Forgot to take your autism drug again, eh!

HP #356

`` Urstruly makes an important point and I know most Khasis would miss the importance of it. Western Values are just another name for the Christian Values that are widely practiced in the West even by non or anti religion westerners. Similarly, the Islamic or the Muslim Value system though not widely practiced, and not as clearly defined as the Christian values have a certain following in the Muslim world. Though with caveats and exceptions. Similarly, Jewish values too have a currency in the followers of that religion but is there any thing that can be referred to as Hindu Values? ``

Western values are not Christian values. They are derived from Christian values. In fact Christian conservatives rail against ``secular humanists``.

`` The Indian social structure comprehensively rejects the Western Value system. In fact, the Muslims in India ideologically are much closer to the Christian or the western Value system but they too resist it due to a prolonged Hindu influence on the Muslim ethno-religious culture in India. ``

Japan and South Korea do not accept Western values 100% either.

`` The attempts by some in the Hindu society to adopt the Western value system has resulted in actually degradation in human relations based on mutual respect. The conflict was highlighted by Gandhi when he tried to push a Value system which he thought was more Hindu in nature but that has actually led to the conflict that we see here in the Hindu lower Middle class representatives on this site. ``

Hindu society is being reformed. These changes causes tensions. Change is never clean. Hundred years ago your scumbag Indian did not have to burn his wife for more dowry. You could just marry another female. In modern India police/judiciary/society look down upon people who have multiple wives. Hence the emergence of dowry burning.

Do you really think Indian and Chinese societies treat their women worse than your Middle Easterner or Pakistani cultures ? I am sure some Pakistani dimwit would suggest Indian and Chinese practice foeticide on a large scale.

#386 by zeemax on November 21, 2006 10:49am PT


sure peemax...consider my post a pro bono lesson in reading comprehension...and reality...the privileged among us must help the less privileged paki cab-drivers, no?

Re: # 371 by krishna_abcd on November 21, 2006 10:08am PT

Lord Krishna,

Kahan thain aap? Humain tau aap ki layhni thee. Yeh ranjit kutta kahan say tupak para.

Aap bolain to phir say aap ki lain kiya?

{HP and behram-baba (P.E.) have delivered for Pakiland the victory that it has failed to win in the last sixty years.

My kudos to both HP and behram-baba. }

Array yeh kuttauin ki tara kiya yap yap kar rahey ho side line per, hain?

Yeh Thankgiving ka din hain maukah be hain aur dastoor bhi hain hindoooun key laiyne ki....

agar aap chahain tao to diwali ka intazaar karteh hain phir hogi day dubba dub dudb, hain?

#380 by arjun2

Haha .. this is really funny ... now I`m an expert at baiting you ... LoL .... I can actually `make` you read ... LoL!

{is there any thing that can be referred to as Hindu Values?}

Yes, squatting over rail road tracks would definitely be considered as bonafide Hindoo Land`s values.

#382 by swarrier

Haha ... I did ... I like it too ....

#367 by tahmed32 to swarrier

#366 are you the exception that proves the rule? or is arjun? that is the question!!

Great question. Awaiting response, swarrier ... !

Re: # 377
Zeemax
The original as I knew it was Camus, but his statement ended with ``walk beside me. Be my friend.``

Who did your bit on it? I like it.

I think one voice of sanity on this forum has been that of AhmedMadani`s. Is he real?

In the first few posts, some interactors said that india is facing a big talent crunch. I think it is because of the abysmally poor condition of our elementary and high school education. As one can see here and in many other places, Indians are too obsessed with higher education. Someone says anything about our higher education system, either extolling or criticizing..and voila...there we go. Meanwhile our schools (on average, not the few where rich kids go) are in a pathetic state of neglect. Another thing that needs to be paid urgent attention to is teacher training. We need scores of good teacher training schools, and for this we should take help of western countries ASAP. Education to children should be imparted not only through school curricula, but also through programs in amusement parks, museums, theaters etc. I think we don`t have expertise for this. But this is a very urgent task.

Sorry...long post and off-topic.

$275,000 is mucho moola for a medallion, and those who have one usually arrange to have other drivers take shifts so that cabs are driven around the clock.


Peemax..I know you have trouble reading(hence the amaranth/amarnath thing)...

let me lay it out for you..a medallion costs 275K, not 375K..and it`s shared among a bunch of pakis...even if we assume a conservate 3 pakis to a medallion, that`s around 90K each...which is less than what most desis make in a year...you have no idea what the market is like...

average incomes of Indian-Americans is 73K each...and the 275K that the pakis pay for the medallion is what they`ve borrowed, not their worth..It`s like saying a person has 500K in the bank if he has a mortgage on a house worth 500K...

Shouldn`t behram change his title from PE to PDE(Professional Disadvantaged Engineer)?

#375 (further thoughts)

Perhaps, unknown to others, there exists a naming convention ...

``Come on now, Peter-I.... Don`t be shy, now!``

``Aww, that`s so cute, Peter-II....You were always the one to rise admirably to the occasion!``

``Now look here, Peter-III, this won`t work ... you got to perform, like the rest of the folks!``

``You are the pits, Peter-IV ... asking to go potty at a time like this!!!````

Swarrier,

The unkown path teaches as much as the unkown destination. -)

Who said ... ``Do not lead me as I may not follow; Do not follow me as I may not lead; Do not walk alongside as it gets too crowded. Why don`t you leave me the hell alone !``

LoL .. this discussion is finally getting interesting!

subhashjoshi: back to do some work so i dont have to look for loopholes in the system. :-) have a good thanksgiving (a holiday people of all faiths can share in).

#371 Ajeya

[...And in the bedroom?...]

I could never get that part. How does one overcome the basic inequity that nature itself imposes?!!

The four to one ratio, I mean.

Or are some people blessed(?) with God-given extra appendages that people from other religions lack?!

#372 Here`s to a rabies free subcontinent!! (someday, inshallah, bhagwan willing, etc. etc.) :-)

#369 i responded directly to what you specifically said. and you have responded by ignoring what i wrote and instead assuring your rabid hero that you are with him. enough said. :-)

Re: # 353 tahmed

(....So, while I am sorry if the truth offends you - the fact is that one third of Indians on chowk are in need of rabies shots.)

Hahaha....may be may be..but three thirds of all Pakistanis on Chowk need GUN shots...hahaha

OK....out of deference for you.....make that two thirds.

#356 by HP


[I got to hand it to Behram for driving a shiv through the Khasi hearts. See, even the Khasi maha Sabahis #350 are here to defend the indefensible.

Urstruly makes an important point and I know most Khasis would miss the importance of it.
Western Values are just another name for the Christian Values that are widely practiced in the West even by non or anti religion westerners. Similarly, the Islamic or the Muslim Value system though not widely practiced, and not as clearly defined as the Christian values have a certain following in the Muslim world. Though with caveats and exceptions. Similarly, Jewish values too have a currency in the followers of that religion but is there any thing that can be referred to as Hindu Values?

There is no historical evidence of anything that can be even loosely termed as Hindu values. If I were to bring Manusumrti or other ancient books that do have some framework for a value system, a majority of Hindus on this site would reject that right away.

The Indian social structure comprehensively rejects the Western Value system. In fact, the Muslims in India ideologically are much closer to the Christian or the western Value system but they too resist it due to a prolonged Hindu influence on the Muslim ethno-religious culture in India.

The attempts by some in the Hindu society to adopt the Western value system has resulted in actually degradation in human relations based on mutual respect. The conflict was highlighted by Gandhi when he tried to push a Value system which he thought was more Hindu in nature but that has actually led to the conflict that we see here in the Hindu lower Middle class representatives on this site. ]



I would like to join HP (the on-the-ground intellectual) in congratulating behram-baba (P.E.) in his ``victory`` over the Hindoos from Hindooland. It may be true that Pakiland has fallen WAY behind India in every respect. It may be true that Pakiland is a dirty word in the world today. It may be even be true that in spite of the 1 Moosla = 10 Hindoo theory, Pakiland has had its behind taken by the Hindoos on EVERY occasion. But behram-baba, the PE has kept the Paki flag flying high.

HP (the respected on-the-ground Paki intellectual) scores another major coup over the Hindoos from Hindooland when he reveals that the reason Pakiland wins is because they at least have Islamic culture (consisting of marrying 12 times, having sex with a 9-year-old and so forth), while the Hindoos have no culture at all. While Mooslas have Moosla values (ok to marry your daughter-in-law etc., okay to marry your cousins - yes, all four of them, spending quality time with your favorite goat etc.), Hindoos have no values at all.

While it may be true that almost all western scholars and philosophers respect Hindoo culture, tradition and philosophy, it is obvious that Hindoo culture is unable to provide the fringe benefits that are but part and parcel of Moosla culture. Like four wives in this life (at a time), and 72 virgins and an unspecified number of ghilmans in the next life? Four mothers for every child? Four hands at the kitchen? And in the bedroom? Most certainly not. Hindoo culture delivers none of these, because there is no culture to begin with.

Hindoos are lucky that at least they have the proximity to Moosla culture that they can see and learn.

HP and behram-baba (P.E.) have delivered for Pakiland the victory that it has failed to win in the last sixty years.

My kudos to both HP and behram-baba.

#368 you have obviously not been on chowk as long as I have been. This man`s hatreds are towards muslims as well as Pakistanis. And even if his hatreds were towards Pakistanis only, he would still be rabid.

Glad we agree on most other things. Great minds think alike. :-)

Arjun,

Keep giving hell to the phony Pakistani religious bigots here wearing that utterly phony mask of ``liberalism``! The wolves claiming to be the sheep.

Their dumb ass shows to the whole world - even as they resolutely shut their own eyes and bury that head deep down, down under!!

In fact, their dumbass shines like the moon!

That green, green moon of the namoonas!

Re: # 353 tahmed

Anti-pakistan = anti-muslim???

Why this religious twist?

I agree with most of your posts, though.

#366 are you the exception that proves the rule? or is arjun? that is the question!!

Re: # 361

As a product of the Indian education system I fear my inability to spell ``unknown`` will cause undue hilarity amongst the participants. So I must atone for my mistakes with another meaningless post. -)

#361 multiple value systems?? we all have the same value system - but some seek it in smarter ways than others. That is all.

#360 Mr. Joshi

The gentleman in question may be an authority on such ``taste`` matters, having perhaps a lot of it being force-fed since early childhood!!

The green fever can be highly overpowering - but it is there because of a reason!

douchebag = gone-rabid-with-complexes-master-arjun.

#359 touche!! you got the douchebag with that!! :-)

Re: # 354

Urstruly
[aspect of knowledge ``If you don`t know where you are going, you will probably never get there``.]

The unkown path teaches as much as the unkown destination. -)

HP

Why should we have only one value system? We have several, you are free to choose from them. Our banias believe in profit, our teachers believed in knowledge. It was the choice that was taken away over a period of time, the freedom to choose. Not any more.
So all that ideology rubbish is not for us.

Now think of something better to do than discuss all this high faultin` stuff. -)
Good food for instance with or without heeng.

Re: # 339 Urstruly

(,,,,, That is the sole reason that we should avoid Indian scholarships or Indian education at all, like a plague. )

Good riddance.

(... Indian education system.... boy! it tastes like shyt. )

And how would YOU know that?

Hey Arjun, have you read the FOMC minutes of SR today? The NYC cab medallions are $375,000 a pop ... that`s more than what code coolies earn in a decade .... so the NYC Pak cabbies must be real rich while you slog for peanuts!

#357 by zeemax on November 21, 2006 9:33am PT

If you had read the WSJ instead of finance for cab drivers, you`d have known the difference between amaranth and amarnath..


so much for the paki education system...

#354 Urstruly/Dost,

... 2breads for poor+2 breads for rich= 4 breads required today or in 10 years, is called ``vision`` ...

And when you can calculate the `present value` of the two breads in 10 years by discounting it with the riskless rate and hedging the duration mismatch with forward to forward swaps, only then you`ve really `arrived` !

I got to hand it to Behram for driving a shiv through the Khasi hearts. See, even the Khasi maha Sabahis #350 are here to defend the indefensible.

Urstruly makes an important point and I know most Khasis would miss the importance of it.
Western Values are just another name for the Christian Values that are widely practiced in the West even by non or anti religion westerners. Similarly, the Islamic or the Muslim Value system though not widely practiced, and not as clearly defined as the Christian values have a certain following in the Muslim world. Though with caveats and exceptions. Similarly, Jewish values too have a currency in the followers of that religion but is there any thing that can be referred to as Hindu Values?

There is no historical evidence of anything that can be even loosely termed as Hindu values. If I were to bring Manusumrti or other ancient books that do have some framework for a value system, a majority of Hindus on this site would reject that right away.

The Indian social structure comprehensively rejects the Western Value system. In fact, the Muslims in India ideologically are much closer to the Christian or the western Value system but they too resist it due to a prolonged Hindu influence on the Muslim ethno-religious culture in India.

The attempts by some in the Hindu society to adopt the Western value system has resulted in actually degradation in human relations based on mutual respect. The conflict was highlighted by Gandhi when he tried to push a Value system which he thought was more Hindu in nature but that has actually led to the conflict that we see here in the Hindu lower Middle class representatives on this site.

#352 by swarrier

Come to think of it ... hotel management is a great discipline which is somehow taught best in Austria for some reason ... Even though it is vocational too, but teaches a lot of soft skills ... like how to serve a rich relative who happened along when you`re serving tables ... hmmm.

Dost

Allow me to explain my point with an example.

Having come to know that 2+2=4 is called knowledge.

Using this knowledge to say that 2+2=4 Breads is called ``applied knowledge``

But using the same knowledge to say that 2breads for poor+2 breads for rich= 4 breads required today or in 10 years, is called ``vision`` or ``awareness``.

I know this is a simplistic example, but the point is that the desi education system stops at ``applied knowledge`` level. It does not give vision, and it does not create awareness. You can study all the meteorology all you want but a farmer would just smell the air and he can tell you whetehr it will rain or not-because he is aware and knowledgable.

As far as desi education is concerned about 100% of students take professional education in the hopes of getting a good job; those who go into arts and sciences are considered to be losers. It is a different matter that someone from the later category becomes successful later in life but the general menatality of public is that only professional (read vocational education) is the valid education, rest is what you are stuck with.

In order to cater to this mentality, for the past 60 years, the powers that be and the intelligentia, have only created circumstances that support this mentality. That is the point where ideology comes in and opens up human mind to many possibilities.

While on your side, you have no ideology, on our side we have a different problem. Our problem is that even though we have an ideology that says that ``even if a dog dies thirsty at the banks of river Ravi, the president is responsible``, our country is occupied by a corrupt and amoral class that consider itself above any reproach or accountability. This ideology (that 1 bread each) resides in our veins therefore even though it cannot be taken out of us, but it can be corrupted and distorted. Hence the intelligentia and powers that be in our country try to keep nation into a state of confusion and misdirected. This is even worst than not having an ideology at all. Today, an ordinary Pakistani has no dreams and no hopes for a better governance, better life, and a better society. He thinks that the corruption, lawlessness, and oppression is the fait accompli and there is no escape from that. So Pakistan in a sense is not only deprived of the ``vision or awareness`` state of knowledge but it does not even come close to having capable of ``applied knowldge``. The proof of this is that for the past two decades we have not only been ``importing`` finance ministers but even prime ministers for our country. And people of Pakistan take it lying down, because they think that it is fait accompli and nothing can change that - or even worse they don`t even know what can it change into - no vision.

So this should rebut swarrier`s point that I am propounding a `superiority theory`. On the other hand his post is the very proof of what I am saying when he wrote that ``Are you telling me that in the final sum, the quest to fill one`s stomach is not purposeful?``. In other words he is setting the ultimate usability of knowldege to `applied knowledge` only as I wrote above. There is a saying that should summarize my point in these few words regarding ideological aspect of knowledge ``If you don`t know where you are going, you will probably never get there``.

#346 ``Whatever the legitimacy of Arjun’s viewpoint(s), he usually makes his points and supports those with news items from various sources.``

You are contradicting yourself in the same sentence - i.e., the first part is a disclaimer concerning the legitimacy of his viewpoints; the rest of the sentence claims his views are supported by news items.

The fact is that he gives the pretense of support to his rabid anti-muslim claims by providing some link that does not add up anywhere close to his claims. He is no different than that other Indian luminary on chowk, Jay Thakeray, who would pull out some crime report from a Pakistani newspaper and use that to back his claim that Pakistan was doomed.

So, while I am sorry if the truth offends you - the fact is that one third of Indians on chowk are in need of rabies shots.

Re: # 351
Ah gourmet food, thinking of the tasteless bilge I shall get in the canteen, the thought of gourmet food is very welcome.
I think we need more culinary institutes. Indian education is truly lacking. We had only one college for hotel management in Bombay for a long time, but nothing specialising in cooking.
Such a total disregard for culture. Alas.

#348 by swarrier

Well swarrier, you are the exception ... (I hasten to add) ... which makes the rule (again, at-least on Chowk). Of-course you know none of my frolicking is directed towards you :-)

You say:

....in the final sum, the quest to fill one`s stomach is not purposeful? Then you are moving away from nihilism....

Not at all. Filling one`s stomach is no more or less purposeless than any other quest ..... gourmet food excepting, but that`s another discussion!

Urstruly:

Are you not confusing knowledge with morality and ethics?

As for as knowledge is considered, I don` think that you need any ideology; indeed, I would argue the opposite and suggest that ideology would provide with you some pre-conceived notions which may even prevent you from an unbiased acquisition of knowledge. While I do not accept your holy book as divine, it does have some very valid ideas, one of which is that one should go to any length (the proverbial China) to acquire knowledge.

But education is more than knowledge. As you pointed out correctly perhaps on another board, it depends upon both formal learning and upbringing or tarbiyaat. Even a secular system of education can impart generally accepted notion of ethics, such as not doing to others what you dont want them to do to you.

Whether or not Hinduism provides a system of ethics is another issue. This article is about Indian education system and not what is taught at a Gurukul ashram; I suspect however that the Hindu society is quite eclectic and is willing to accept those ideas from others that it finds attractive.

#346 by bjkumar on November 21, 2006 8:24am PT


what you don`t understand about pakis is that the facts hate the pakis...reality itself is biased against the land of the pure...

you probably also don`t understand the might of google in the hands of Indians.....google has the awesome power to rip the fabric of space-time continuum and make things happen in the past that wouldn`t have happened if the Indians hadn`t searched for them...

for e.g., when Indians search for pakis killing hundreds of thousands of bengalis in 71, the google search changes history in a way that reflects what`s being searched..which is why you see articles about pakis killing a bunch of muslims and not prosecuting anyone...now if these dastardly hindoos hadn`t searched google for that, those events would never have happened...

Re: # 343
Zeemax
Are you telling me that in the final sum, the quest to fill one`s stomach is not purposeful? Then you are moving away from nihilism.
Don`t agree with Urstruly`s pseudo-speak just because he wants to propound his superiority theory. -)

#345 by arjun2 on November 21, 2006 8:16am PT


while I might agree with that sentiment, that`s not my post...

#340 Tauheed mian

Yours is the type of patently dishonest statement and downright bald-faced lie that most Pakistani “writers” and interactors on this site make time and again.

Whatever the legitimacy of Arjun’s viewpoint(s), he usually makes his points and supports those with news items from various sources. It is downright dishonest of you, mian Tauheed, and not for the first time, to compare that stuff to the guy you compared him with – that favorite namoona with his barrage of religion-based vitriol he lets loose!!

But what can the mian Tauheeds of the world do – you have to work with what you have – and the past conduct of Pakistani leaders and the Pakistani mullahs and the Pakistani politicos and the Pakistani masses and most importantly the Pakistani jihadis leaves precious little room for individuals like yourself to maneuver!

So you are caught in a bind – like a chicken ready for its slaughter! Putting on pretensions of fake secularism amidst a sea of rabid fundamentalism! Like the proverbial ostrich with its buried head.

Dear ostrich, that ass still is visible to the whole world!

Like I said earlier – you Pakistani “writers” and interactors are a bunch of opportunistic chickens – singing praises of that murghikhana inside whose metal nets you are safely ensconced – at least as far as the mindset is concerned! But guess what – it’s a tough place to get out from.

Cluck, cluck – anyone?!!

Or was that quack, quack?!! The chicken pretending to be a duck!

And the dead man Jinnah – the first quack that gave you the only true love of your life – that green angoor kee beti.

Whose nasha overcomes all sorts of pains!

Re: # 9Dear Sattar2, with principles numbers dont matter. Even if there was only one Ahmadi-Muslim in Pakistan, he/she should be respected and allowed to publicy and safely practice his/her beliefs without any fear of reprecussions.

Re: Burpinder # 332

```` I read somewhere that recruiters at IIMs ask for (and receive) a list of all the reserved category students on the rolls so that they know whom to watch out for. ````

Having graduated from one, I know for a fact that it is not so. Placements in IIMs are managed by Students themselves and nothing other than GPA (and of course candidates resumes) are sent officially.. Not even whether a particular student repeated his first year twice or not...

Rgds,

#342 by Urstruly

Hmm ... makes sense ... let`s wait for any convincing rebuttal.

Re: # 341 Zeemax.

This menatlity is driven by only one thing and that is a sense of acute inferiority complex. Education alone cannot help overcome this mentality unless education itself is butteressed by an ideology. The only thing that raises human beings from the level of a biological organism is the ideology.

This is a delicate point to understand. Look, if the purpose of education is to make money or live a comfortable life alone then I am sorry to say that even an amoeba wants to live a comfortable life; it swims to the shade when exposed to light and heat. On the other hand an ideology gives human beings a sense of purpose and adds meaning to life. It is the ideology that gets human beings out of the comfort zone and props him to explore heavens and earth. That is the reason, the children as young as of fifth grade, in West are taught principles of free market economy and Capitalism. Capitalism originated in West and it has become their way of life- the very ideology that they live by. This ideology gives them their ethics, their values, and a purpose to live by.

In comparison, (to West and Muslims), Hindus have no ideology, and they have nothing to offer to the world. I think Deepak Chopra is the best they can do, and every one knows what a chutya charlatn he is. In other words, Hindus have a political and economic system that was borrowed from west - be it socialism of yester years or capitalism of now and they have an education system that was forced upon them by their colonial masters. The best this education system can do is to produce vocational workers.

#339 by Urstruly

Agreed, at-least for the chowkie sampling. So where do you think the problem lies? Under-emphasis on soft disciplines? Perhaps. But it could also be a nouveu riche mentality with little or no exposure to classic art & literature.

Any ideas?

while not wishing to interfere in this behram-hindu lovefest, l should note that to accuse behram of being a freeloader because he registered his company as a minority business makes no sense either. I think it is merely an attempt to get back to behram for writing his put-downs of hindus (which are no different than the crap that arjun and co. write on chowk, which the same hindus celebrate).

What I have been arguing for below is the one`s prime focus should be on the substance and not on the loopholes. Mere registration as a minority business company does not indicate that the prime focus is on loopholes rather than on the substance.

Hope this clarifies. :-)

OK, I waited this long so that evidence should present itself. I present to you this thread as Exhibit A, to show as to what is wrong with Indian education system. Look at the Indians here and see what this education system has turned them into. That is the sole reason that we should avoid Indian scholarships or Indian education at all, like a plague.

This should prove that this assessment of Indian education system has nothing to do with prejudice or nationalism; it has everything to do with the sample that it produces. As the proverb goes, one doesn`t have to eat the whole cauldron of rice to check the taste, only a sample is enough; and boy! it tastes like shyt.

Re:behram#334

[..Just look at my superior performance. I am getting free publicity that only a corrupt jealous mind from a Hindoo cheaters class can wish for. .....]

ROTFLMAO!!!

Mr. Affirmative Action, you are certainly getting free publicity for your ``superior`` performance. You are superior to everyone in chowk as far as begging in front of whites is concerned. Beta, take a bowl and sit in front of the Austin DOT office and beg for work. Because that is what you literally do, day in and day out hoping that based on your skin color someone will toss you some work as an act of charity.

You have no capability to compete without the crutches of Affirmative Action. You walk on crutches and criticize those who are sprinting against goras day in and day out. You talk of a level playing field, when in reality you beg for a handout to get on the field. Indians and Pakistanis are already in the field, both in corporate jobs and in business. But you are not part of that crowd. You just sit on the sidelines and beg based on affirmative action.

Here is the main challenge - Can you survive without Affirmative Action? The answer is NO. If they withdraw your minority status, you will starve and be unemployed and head back to Pakistan. You do not have the capability to get a job in the corporate world or operate a business without affirmative action. That is the bottom line that tags you as a loser.

[..I am considered fairly white. You might have forgotten, I am a true Persian Zoroastrian...]

Shameless idiot, at least save whatever pride you have and get lost from this forum. You are making a total fool of yourself and destroying the reputation of all Zoroastrians. White, my a$$. You have a kaala face from affirmative action. Go and wash your kaala face in some gandi naali in Pakistan first, then show your face again.

To all Indians,

This Neuter is rattled by Ranjit and Burpy. He thinks he`s civilised ;) LOL+LOL+LOL

Behram sahib,

(So what is the revenue/employee at Wipro? )

What`s the revenue/employee at the Pak Fauj.

(then go upgrade your social values to becoming a human being. )

If becoming a human being would mean becoming someone like you, I will prefer to remain a macaca.

Regards

#334 by behram1 on November 21, 2006 3:44am PT
``And this is where your hatred for other people is obvious. Coming from the cheater`s class you really do have the guts to say such things. Why don`t you ask your parents first, why were cheating humanity and robbing other humans of their dignity. Your Hindoo land has this caste system that no amount of ``surkhy powder`` will change that. The whole world knows that Hindoos hate others purely on the basis of birth lottery. ``

this is simply toooo good. this bhikari living of the white man`s and rich hindu man`s generousity in the US has the ball$ to talk about dignity. where did all his dignity go when this bhikari accepted discards from others and now is trying to belittle people who have maintained their dignity and competed with the world playing within the rules. this bhikari uses his skin colour to become a `jamadar` (bathoom and tank cleaner) and then lectures people who have made it thru merit about the benefits of using AA.

go on be-haram dude....you are taking the charge of entertainer - in - chief post from yasser very well.

rgds,

devkant.

Re: # 331 by burpinder on November 21, 2006 0:58am PT

Dear Burpinder:

Get over the hindoo shenanigan of telling the world that there is something called a middle class in India. It is generally accepted that this class (if there are any) in India was only created in the last decade or so. You were talking about those Hindoos who interact on this Chowk, and that they have come from a family that were middle class. As I have noted, and am reiterating once again for your thick skull to get it, all Hindoo Land had was a cheater`s class. And apparently that has hit a raw nerve amongst your ilk. Hindoo Land has the most corrupt of humans, and the world knows that. Those do-takay ka naukar in the employment offices would all kinds of bribes just to get ahead, and that is fact. Hindoo Land is infested with corrupt people in all rungs of society. Heck, your Bollywood is run with Black Money.

So how much of Black Money did your parents have to send you to the west? What would you know about MERIT? Your whole Hindoo tribe is taking all kinds of Handouts in the west, and you are here justifying a nonsensical theology that your hindoo folks have always abhorred. Your society has instituted the worst kind of caste system, and you try to double speak into calling it a class system. Go understand the deformed morality of your fellow Hindoos first, and then come on this Chowk. Your bogus and noisy aristocracy is clearly exposed for the rest of the world to read and understand.

So what is the revenue/employee at Wipro? Let us hear the self-aggrandizing mantra from the Hindoos of this chowk. You are just the modern day beggars who have come to the west, and are under some delusion that you have come on the basis of some qualification.

Your Hindoo Land politicos have no idea of what the freedom thinkers of the west calls your society. The Economist and The Wall Street has repeatedly termed that your society need some infrastructure improvements, and yet your deformed unelected PM has taken the whole society towards some noisy tech industry.

If you consider yourself to be so brilliant (which I doubt) then go upgrade your social values to becoming a human being. Acknowledge and accept the fact that majority is always unkind and ruthless to the minorities. At least in the west, we are striving to develop an egalitarian society.

But you will only know if your parents had given you this basic foundation of basic human rights and basic human rights. You double speak and you consider that is your worth. O! you double speak and you consider that as intelligent. Far from it, you are child of the cheater`s class, which is usually the biggest goons of Hindoo Land. Liars, cheaters, tricksters and deceivers have all been infested in the offices of Hindoo Land. Nothing gets done without a bribe, and you are bragging about how hard your parents have worked. And now you have this crocodile`s tears, if someone comes and gets your face exposed.

Your Hindoo Land will not come to the under sole of this great nation. The truest form of human rights are available over here. Minorities rights and affirmative action is needed to create a better society for our future.

{Behram is an asal chutya. I was taking pity on hima dn explaining it nicely but he gets all personal and insults my parents instead. Moron. }

No, Burpinder, you were not nice. Actually you have no idea what nicety is. As for insulting your parents is concerned, why would I do that? Yes, there was never a middle class (until recently) in India, and yes those who were/are employed at offices throughout India are the cheater`s class.

{However, I tend to agree with anil`s stand on this...}

Justifying your argument with another member of your Hindoo team, eh! Taking refuge in numbers, huh! This is the guy who suggested that this is a street fight. Why don`t you bring your exceptionally great writing skills to the forefront?

And then, you bring issue of what is happening in your Hindoo Land. Do you not know that values of Hindoo Land have always been deformed?

No, sir, asking for following a law which is Affirmative in nature does not punish anybody. It is in addition to the system of meritocratic, and that is what you Hindoos are purposely missing. What is the difference if the majority looses a few measly seat on minorities? How can a minority otherwise succeed in the turbulent Hindoo society?

{I read somewhere that recruiters at IIMs ask for (and receive) a list of all the reserved category students on the rolls so that they know whom to watch out for.}

Just don`t believe in everything you read. Newspapers are written for the general masses of majorities, and is not some gospel truth. Do you suffer from autism as well? It seems that most Hindoos from Hindoo Land on this Chowk has this disease.

---

And now to respond to the other deformed Hindoo from Hindoo Land:

Dear ranjit:

{Do you think a jackass like behram deserves affirmative action?} Yes, because that is the Federal Law, you idiot. Just like other Hindoo morons are getting employment in American Universities, getting city, and state employment on the same Affirmative Action basis.

{On what basis, may I ask since no one in Texas discriminated against his last 7 generations?} Same question goes for the Hindoos from Hindoo Land.

{He is just using his brown skin color to score easy money by latching on to a racial handout that is meant primarily for blacks and latinos.} No you idiot from the cheater`s class, I am considered fairly white. You might have forgotten, I am a true Persian Zoroastrian. I was just lucky to be born in Pakistan. I have a Persian DNA, and not some deformed Hindoos DNA just like any Devlali no Parsee.

{He is taking a shortcut because he doesn`t have the qualifications or capability to compete in the open marketplace unlike hundreds of thousands of other regular Indians and Pakistanis.}

What market place when guys like you have taken refuge inside corporate America or some state agency? What would you know about competition? eh! Coming for a Hindoo cheater`s class, you have the audacity to think. How dare you?

Oooh, now you are including Pakistanis as some one that competes in the open market, while some other hindoo lotta will be suggesting that Pakistanis do not have good engineering schools.

You are just a moron who does not know that he was raised as such. Double speak is the only ``turbiyat`` that you got from your upbringing in the cheater`s class.

Kutta jalay jalta hi rahain.

Just look at my superior performance. I am getting free publicity that only a corrupt jealous mind from a Hindoo cheaters class can wish for.

{.. behram comes to a public forum..} And that is exactly why I come to these public form and get biggest satifaction in showing the true mirror of Hindoo hypocrisy, and their autism.

{ and pretends to be a hot shot enterpreneur while disparaging Indian professionals competing in the mainstream.}

No Ranjit, neither Hindoos are deemed professional nor they are competing in the mainstream. Regardless of what your Hindoo Land has indoctrinated you with, you are from and you always will remain from the cheater`s class.

Ever since, I rejoined the Chowk, it is guys like you, the jealous Hindoos who have unnecessarily brought my profession into these discussions. If you are any smart (which I am glad that you are not) then quit talking how bad people from Pakistan are.

BTW, what is the revenue/employee of Wipro?


{Can you imagine the hypocrisy in that? A `do takay` ka affirmative action guy actually criticizing people competing on merit? Speak of delusional behavior. }

Actually your hindoo ``do taka`` is much less than what you think. Talking bad about Affirmative Action, while Corporate America through their own shenanigans brought the cheapest labor in the world that money can buy.

And what a boondoggle when the Hindoo lot showed up on all those H1-B visas. Those deformed sorry @ss people from Hindoo land.

{If he does not have what it takes to compete, at least he should have the decency to shut up. } And you do!!!!!! what a surprise and you are still working in some form a stupid employment?

{Imagine if a scheduled caste quota guy pretends to be an academic genius and starts taking pot shots at merit guys? How would you react?}

And this is where your hatred for other people is obvious. Coming from the cheater`s class you really do have the guts to say such things. Why don`t you ask your parents first, why were cheating humanity and robbing other humans of their dignity. Your Hindoo land has this caste system that no amount of ``surkhy powder`` will change that. The whole world knows that Hindoos hate others purely on the basis of birth lottery.

How despicable,

Respectfully submitted,

Re:burpy #332

[..I read somewhere that recruiters at IIMs ask for (and receive) a list of all the reserved category students on the rolls so that they know whom to watch out for.....]

That is indeed despicable. On the other hand, maybe they are doing a favor to the quota candidate. If he is not competitve enough, he may not be able to survive the rough, grueling dog eat dog world of business at the executive level and get fired. He might be better off in a government job or a public sector job.

Just like Behram is better off living off the Texas government dole than competing in the open!! That would mean unemployment and a return ticket to Pakistan for him. Sorry burpy, but it is incredibly pleasurable to roast behram`s filthy a$$. The feeling of schadenfreude is priceless!! He he!!

Re: # 331

Behram is an asal chutya. I was taking pity on hima dn explaining it nicely but he gets all personal and insults my parents instead. Moron.

However, I tend to agree with anil`s stand on this... if you have an easy out which you refuse to use, you are doing yourself a great injustice. nowhere in any (Indian) legislation does it say that reservations must necessarily go to the needy alone. Indeed, our esteemed lawmakers are in a desperate hurry to get the legislation through without the creamy layer exclusion, because they know that could cause them major problems in the next elections. And never mind what the Supreme Court says...

I read somewhere that recruiters at IIMs ask for (and receive) a list of all the reserved category students on the rolls so that they know whom to watch out for. I think that`s just digusting, if it`s true- if I am a reserved category student, I have as much right, by law, to be there as any other student. You have no right to judge me on anything but my credentials- my academic records, how I present myself and my suitability for the job. Otherwise you are not promoting meritocracy but punishing it.

It`s this attitude of shoot-the-messenger that I am uncomfortable with. I don`t pretend to be a big psychoanalyst because I`m least qualified to do it. But I reserve my venom for the lawmakers instead of the people who benefit from the law.

Re:burpy

[..With this sense of wounded disenfranchisement, it`s little wonder that these folks develop a hatred for affirmative action...]

Burpy, take it easy on the psychoanalysis. No one has said anything against affirmative action for people who genuinely deserve it - poor blacks and latinos in the US or dalits in India.

Do you think a jackass like behram deserves affirmative action? On what basis, may I ask since no one in Texas discriminated against his last 7 generations? He is just using his brown skin color to score easy money by latching on to a racial handout that is meant primarily for blacks and latinos. He is taking a shortcut because he doesnt have the qualifications or capability to compete in the open marketplace unlike hundreds of thousands of other regular Indians and Pakistanis. Hence he deserves every bit of scorn and stigma that white society and successful desi society heaps upon affirmative action users.

On top of all that, behram comes to a public forum and pretends to be a hot shot enterpreneur while disparaging Indian professionals competing in the mainstream. Can you imagine the hypocrisy in that? A `do takay` ka affirmative action guy actually criticizing people competing on merit? Speak of delusional behavior. That is why we are giving him a royal humiliation. He richly deserves it. If he does not have what it takes to compete, at least he should have the decency to shut up. Imagine if a scheduled caste quota guy pretends to be an academic genius and starts taking pot shots at merit guys? How would you react?

Re:behram#318

[..Affirmative action is not about past injustices, it is about the present and about what sort of a future egalitarian society one desire......]

Ha ha ha!! The affirmative action beggar who lives on white charity in Austin, Texas is justifying his begging. Just because the whites throw a bone in his plate, doesnt make the society egalitarian.

Its people like us, the hard working Indians and Pakistanis who compete every day with the goras and beat them at their own game based on merit, who are making the US more egalitarian.

Behram, learn to spell the word MERIT - M-E-R-I-T. Do that everyday. Maybe decades from now, you will actually understand what that means. Bloody affirmative action loser!!

its just wonderful to see be-haram running around to justify that he being a `bhikari` is better than people doing hard work and making a good life for themselves.

rgds,

devkant.

Re: # 326

Burpinder, BJK...Thanks.
Now you can save yourself from attacks by not provoking and avoiding know minefields with red flag. It does not help being in bad company and abusing others at afternoon after all this you did not feel good. We should come here as friends and departs as friends and well wishers. We should really feel as Kabir said about good company. `` Jo kuchh gandhi de nahi to bas suhas``. I really felt bad when mr. Behram said bad things about some bodies parents. Beharam will do far better in life if can not say good atleast do not say bad. It is loss control of magzine people not to rightsize plain obscene writing. My suspicious mind feels they want this to happen. Probably Behram is extremely intelligent but he is not cultured and pasrees are innate cultural people of good taste hope he will pass this agitated state and reach stable cultural equilibrium.
At same time there is no need to make fun of people doing their trade.
Its not good afternoon a bed taste is left in mind, good day, bye

Re: # 323

There are some people of low IQ( Low and MidTech and no tech me) and some of High IQ ( Mostly in HTech) who come here not to interact and learn from knowledge and experience and improve english gramer and spellings etc but just to abuse and redicule, attack, unprovoked attacks and enjoy verbal abusive relationship developed in peoples relationships and laugh and drink tea and enjoy. Bad attitude.

Re: # 319

Madani, please don`t use that ``who provoked whom`` argument wrt Behram. He is quick to take offence and go on one of his raving rants at the slightest bit of what he perceives as provocation, while maintaining a completely different standard of behaviour for himself. His asinine statements about India, Hindus, Parsis, and just about anybody at all reveals what a brainless bigot he really is. I guess the Pakistanis on the website tolerate him because at the end of the day, he is a loyal citizen and has always been polite in his interactions with other Pakistanis on this site. But I sense they too are losing interest.

Please don`t wste time defending the guy, you will cut no ice with me and the sugarcaneman has proved quite capable of defending himself in the past.

Thanks,
Burpinder

RetardX:

``You are not at all from the middle class. Far from it``
- Yup, thanks to the education my parents insisted on, I`m doing quite well now thanks!

``you and your ilk, will not even know what a civilized person is. You are from the cheater`s class of India. Your parents were probably employed as a ``do takkay ka naukar`` in some government employment, and took train to their work.``

- Yup, my Dad was a middle manager when he retired from a PSU financial services firm. He took the local train to Churchgate for 40 years, even after he could afford a car. In Mumbai, using publis transport is not considered infra-dig.

``Your parents were the most corrupt office-politician who have crooked backs, hence the world famous nomenclature of an ugly deformed Hindoo. Your parents thought that getting an education, any education, is just getting some degree, and by ``chori chapati`` and/or human smuggling get the kids send to a western countries. Your parents collected a lot of ill-earned money commonly known as Black Money. ``
- Nope, no such luck. You weren`t listening. If that was the case, I`d be sitting pretty right now, not having to worry about mortgage payments and taking foreign vacations at the drop of a hat, with my picture making it on Page 3 of ToI every other day. Dad and Mom barely put together enough ``white`` money to be considered wealthy, at best we were ``well off``. A small 2 bedroom flat, a small car and some well-chosen blue chips is all I ever inherited.

``It just so happened that western economy has found your usefulness, because your people are so deformed mentally as well socially. Your people practically live of dirt, and you have primed your Hindoos to be the world`s worst bigot.``
- OK. That`s very mature. Goes well with the squatter-baiting too.

``You can never be from the upper-class of India, because they are busy screwing the other classes of India, and you are wasting your time over here.``
- Let me just set one thing straight, I am not ``over there``. I am very much still a resident of India. So I assume all that venom was wasted- you`re better off targeting ranjit or arjun.

``Yes, you might have learnt some English on the way, and perhaps some writing skills, but having intelligence you have not.``
- Perhaps, but having my intelligence gauged by you is not what I`d call an educated opinion.

``Just look at the biggest joker of your society, your Prime Minister, who is after all unelected. What a sham democracy you have.``
- Your understanding of Indian politics is amazing. And to be lectured on how to run a democracy by a non-resident citizen of a military dictatorship is too funny to react too.

``Your post just shows your meaningless double speak, because you have no value to fight for. You are railing against me, who has always stood against injustice. All your bogus theories and innuendos have been proven wrong. ``
- My post did NOT rail against you, dear brainless baboon. I was trying to explain why arjun and ranjit hate you so much for being a bottom feeder. Looks like my efforts were wasted.

``Affirmative action is not about past injustices, it is about the present and about what sort of a future egalitarian society one desire. If you can not get it on such a liberal site as chowk, then heavens have mercy on the people of the society that you come from.
The US is founded on equality of opportunity. Regardless of what the nonsense rhetoric of the majority suggests, affirmative action just makes the playing field a little equal.``
- Already told you, I don`t disagree with you on affirmative action at all. Believe that if you want to.

``Unlike Hindoos, Pakistanis are very successful in other small business enterprises where there is no Affirmative Action per say. There are Chinese engineering companies that started as minority engineering company.``
- I don`t have data to contradict or agree with with you. So, OK.


``Hindoos by and large have chosen to be ``do takay ka naukar`` just like their parents, and would like to play office-politicos just like their parents. They would rather be corrupt just like their parents, but can`t because of the laws in the west.``
- I`m being patient, but the next time you insult my parents, you inbred fucking retard, you better be ready for some real spicy retorts. Last warning.

``{To understand this behaviour, } What is there to understand about a Hindoo from Hindoo Land? Absolutely nothing, zilch, nada. They are jealous and can`t stand a Zoroastrian person who loves Pakistan.``
- What did I ever say about Pakistan you freak? It`s YOU I can`t stand.

``{Probably these good folks do not realise how privileged they have been to have had parents who put value on a good education.}
You consider these hindoos who interact on this chowk as good folks. You need to examine your brains (i.e. if you have any)``
- Apparently you don`t understand satire as well. But that`s not surprising. May I recommend yoga? It`ll help get rid of the rage. The IQ I`m sorry there`s nothing you can do about it. Maybe become a Hindu and believe that your next life will be better. But uske liye you need to wise up in this life, or you`re headed the dung-beetle route.

``Respectfully submitted,``
- Yeah. Up yours too, gunnewale.

#319 Ahmedmadani

Ahmedmadani sahib, you have - in your own unique and inimitable style - so succinctly captured the essential similarity between the response styles of Mr. YLH and Mr. Behram Atashband. Thank you, sir! It is absolutely simple and brilliant. Remarkable!

Please do grace my future boards, when you get a chance! Don`t be a stranger, now!

And pay no attention to the use of terms like ``dude`` - those are terms of endearment from the youth of the day! And in our hearts - of course we always retain a part of that youth!

Ahmedmadani,

(Lots of people not so gentle man start waving flag G at YLS)

Somehow I can quite picture Manto mian with horns goring down poor MKG. LOL

Regards

Harishbhai,

You are completely mistaken. Musharraf has been elected by 97% of Pak population, he is the most democratically elected President of the world, after Kim Jr who enjoys 99.99% of popular votes.

Regards

#318 by behram1

Just look at the biggest joker of your society, your Prime Minister, who is after all unelected. What a sham democracy you have.

Sure...Musharraf, Shaukat Aziz, and his gang of ministers are all elected, free and fair. Wonder why the world still thinks of Mushy as a dictator and most don`t even know who Shortcut Aziz is.

mr. madani: dost mittar thinks that you are an indian pretending to be a Pakistani. can you please correct him by singing Pak Sur Zameen??

Re: # 315

Dear sir Burpinder ......... You have written very good but you have not pointed who started this problems and provoked Mr. Beharam. I also reject your assessment of Behram and its mostly speculation. I think lots have people have contempt for people like me and others who just worked hard and its nor our fault. One has to survive have to work hard. Beharam can be guilty some thing but others are most guilty of ganging up on his and his profession and related engineering work. It is unbecoming of gentleman of calling names as retardo, halfbred, and so on. Now we know that if you are in ring and wave red flag bull is going to start towards you. So bull is not at fault but man who provoked bull. Lots of people not so gentle man start waving flag G at YLS and then expect him to be calm is not lis fine if you belive in miracles and most do not believe in miracles.

personally I did not liked the theme of article `` Outstanding students``. The scholarship should be provided to normal or subnormal people as they will be grateful to host country. Intelligent people always take advantage of situation and then redicule people who fed,they always bite hands which feed them. Also outstanding people will be never happy and they will antagonze hosts. So if good will want to be generated then send people like me.

It is feel very sad no body answered my basic question ``What is wrong with medium or inferior brain with good coordination of brain and hands. He can deliver digging earth and covering it in time and on budget.``
CAN ANY BODY ANSWER ?
Personally only DMji sagecious way put rightly the perspective and thanks for trying to calm . DMji it should be Z and J ( let me explain south/hindi belt they they call Garib, Jamindar while in Urdu it is Zamindar and Gharib, that arabic influence, arabic is harsh sounding like German, Russian while look at Bengali it softens they even elliminate ``V`` and relaced by B soft sound, if see on Tv animated arabs shouting death to people look the way they move toungue and hard flat pronouncian, look how arab when angry say MuKHaraban , KH capital is stressed)

Re: # 315 by burpinder on November 20, 2006 8:34pm PT

Dear Burpinder,

Actually you and your hindoos from squatter`s land have low IQ and are from the low life. You are not at all from the middle class. Far from it, you and your ilk, will not even know what a civilized person is. You are from the cheater`s class of India. Your parents were probably employed as a ``do takkay ka naukar`` in some government employment, and took train to their work.

Your parents were the most corrupt office-politician who have crooked backs, hence the world famous nomenclature of an ugly deformed Hindoo. Your parents thought that getting an education, any education, is just getting some degree, and by ``chori chapati`` and/or human smuggling get the kids send to a western countries. Your parents collected a lot of ill-earned money commonly known as Black Money.

It just so happened that western economy has found your usefulness, because your people are so deformed mentally as well socially. Your people practically live of dirt, and you have primed your Hindoos to be the world`s worst bigot.

You can never be from the upper-class of India, because they are busy screwing the other classes of India, and you are wasting your time over here. Yes, you might have learnt some English on the way, and perhaps some writing skills, but having intelligence you have not.

Just look at the biggest joker of your society, your Prime Minister, who is after all unelected. What a sham democracy you have.

Your post just shows your meaningless double speak, because you have no value to fight for. You are railing against me, who has always stood against injustice. All your bogus theories and innuendos have been proven wrong.

Affirmative action is not about past injustices, it is about the present and about what sort of a future egalitarian society one desire. If you can not get it on such a liberal site as chowk, then heavens have mercy on the people of the society that you come from.

The US is founded on equality of opportunity. Regardless of what the nonsense rhetoric of the majority suggests, affirmative action just makes the playing field a little equal. Unlike Hindoos, Pakistanis are very successful in other small business enterprises where there is no Affirmative Action per say. There are Chinese engineering companies that started as minority engineering company.

Hindoos by and large have chosen to be ``do takay ka naukar`` just like their parents, and would like to play office-politicos just like their parents. They would rather be corrupt just like their parents, but can`t because of the laws in the west.

{To understand this behaviour, } What is there to understand about a Hindoo from Hindoo Land? Absolutely nothing, zilch, nada. They are jealous and can`t stand a Zoroastrian person who loves Pakistan.

{Probably these good folks do not realise how privileged they have been to have had parents who put value on a good education.}

You consider these hindoos who interact on this chowk as good folks. You need to examine your brains (i.e. if you have any)

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 315

``Texas and America. ``

And Austin too. Man, no wonder Austinites started moving to Round Rock and Cedar Park
and Georgetown and to Williamson county.

{Load of crock!!! White guys born in Africa do not get Affirmative Action. }

I know for a fact that Palestinian, Jordanians, Syrians, Turks, Iraqis, Iranians, Saudis, Afghanistanis are all not considered as minorities, However, an Arab from Egypt would be considered a minority for its location as as African.

So there you have it.

And thank you for a very informative post.

{A 2003 Supreme Court decision concerning affirmative action in universities allowed educational institutions to consider race as a factor in admitting students as long as it was not used in a mechanical, formulaic manner }

This just proves my assertion that those from the sub-continent do take aggressive participation in these goal oriented education programs. This might just open up some Hindoo eyes that after all they are not what they continuously claim to be.

Isn`t it just fun to humiliate a Hindoo from the Squatter Land? Their bragging rights notwithstanding, they just as well take turns in ``do takkay ka`` handout. Ugly hindoos and their deformed values. Aakh thoooo (and that also dirty balghum walla Aakh thooo)

OK, this Behram baiting has gone far enough. Time to inject a little perspective in this debate.

Behram, despite the fact that you`ve proved yourself to be a fairly low-IQ bigot, I don`t hold anything against you if you`ve benefited from affirmative action legislation. Like someone (anil?) said, if there is a factor that you are not utilising effectively, it is tantamount to putting yourself at a competitive disdvantage. In this dog-eat-dog world, that is certainly undesirable. Especially, as you pointed out, there is nothing illegal about affirmative action.

Ranjit, arjun et al are shooting the messenger. To understand this behaviour, you have to bear in mind that they most likely belong to the ``typical`` profile of chowkie: upper-caste, urban, middle-class, educated. ``Middle class`` as defined in India, viz. their parents most likely grew up poor, studied hard within the limited opportunities available them, migrated to the cities at the earliest opportunity, worked their asses off to save up money for their families, educated their kids to at least post-graduate/professional level so that they could start off with an advantage in life that they themselves were denied. This is the profile of a typical IITian, Infosys employee, H1B visa holder and chowkie.

Probably these good folks do not realise how privileged they have been to have had parents who put value on a good education. That, in my opinion, is the only thing that separates them from the vast majority of their countrymen. There are millions of kids who are not so well off, hailing from lower-caste families where the only expectation from you is to start earning your daily wages as soon as you are physically able. That`s the segment that affirmative action is supposed to address.

One of the visible effects of two generations of affirmative action as practiced in India has been to create a class of affluent, educated, urban, low-caste-born people who continue to enjoy the benefits of affirmative action without suffering any of the ills that were the reason for it. While the vast majority of lower-castes still live lives of abject poverty and blinding ignorance, it is this so-called creamy layer that appears to enjoy the benefits of affirmative action. Now look at this through the eyes of arjun, ranjit et al- these kids look like us, dress like us, have parents with good jobs like ours- so why should they need any handout from society just because my forefathers allegedly ill-treated his in a time gone by that nobody remembers? ``I have never insulted a Dalit in my life`` is a remark you are apt to hear from them.

With this sense of wounded disenfranchisement, it`s little wonder that these folks develop a hatred for affirmative action (well, at least AA as practiced in India- which is little more than mindless appeasement of votebanks). The typical arjun would never dream of insulting or getting aggressive with the ``reserved category`` students of his own class- he is much too scared for that, plus it is ``not in his upbringing``. However, this antipathy takes other, more creative forms. I remember in my gang of largely Brahmin classmates in engineering school, there was this absolutely sweet but can`t-for-the-life-of-me-figure-out-why-he-wanted-to-study-engineering duffer who took 7 years to complete the basic 4-year course. He was a DT/NT (denotified tribe/nomadic tribe, if memory serves right). Since we liked him so much, our barbs to him were of the sort, ``Kya re, kal traditional day hai...tu ghaas-phoos pehankey naachega kya?`` I suppose we assuaged our consciences by helping him complete his term paper or ``tute``ing him for the semester exams.

Of course, this antipathy takes more violent, virulent forms as well- I know for example, a guy who very casually referred to a classmate as ``chamaar saala``- it was like a slap in the face even though I was not the intended target. Up North this problem is even more pronounced- the upper and lower castes polarised and aggressive, poised to enter conflict at the slightest provocation.

So no wonder these guys hate you for being a ``reservation guy``...in their opinion (maybe I should just say ``our opinion`` and deflect all charges of hypocrisy being aimed my way!) you are someone quite capable, thanks to your background and ethos, of making it on your own despite not being a member of the privileged elite of your chosen country.

I personally have no such problem, but I do take offence to your being a general low-life prick who gets his kicks from poking fun of people squatting by the tracks, as if, if they`d had a choice, they would. You are also a rabid India-hater and display blind ignorance of simple truths, which is obvious in your rantings against JN Tata, for example. here`s the thing- no amount of affirmative action will ever knock sense into that muddled brain of yours. You are a disgrace on Parsees, Pakistan, Texas and America.

``Respectfully submitted``

``You, being a hindoo, are totally ignorant of the fact that affirmative action is based on the place of birth, and not your race.``

Load of crock!!! White guys born in Africa do not get Affirmative Action.

affirmative action

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in the United States, programs to overcome the effects of past societal discrimination by allocating jobs and resources to members of specific groups, such as minorities and women. The policy was implemented by federal agencies enforcing the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and two executive orders, which provided that government contractors and educational institutions receiving federal funds develop such programs. The Equal Employment Opportunities Act (1972) set up a commission to enforce such plans. The establishment of racial quotas in the name of affirmative action brought charges of so-called reverse discrimination in the late 1970s. Although the U.S. Supreme Court accepted such an argument in Regents of the University of California v. Bakke (1978), it let existing programs stand and approved the use of quotas in 1979 in a case involving voluntary affirmative-action programs in unions and private businesses. In the 1980s, the federal government`s role in affirmative action was considerably diluted. In three cases in 1989, the Supreme Court undercut court-approved affirmative action plans by giving greater standing to claims of reverse discrimination, voiding the use of minority set-asides where past discrimination against minority contractors was unproven, and restricting the use of statistics to prove discrimination, since statistics did not prove intent. The Civil Rights Act of 1991 reaffirmed a federal government`s commitment to affirmative action, but a 1995 Supreme Court decision placed limits on the use of race in awarding government contracts; the affected government programs were revamped in the late 1990s to encompass any person who was ``socially disadvantaged.`` In the late 1990s, in a public backlash against perceived reverse discrimination, California and other states banned the use of race- and sex-based preferences in state and local programs. A 2003 Supreme Court decision concerning affirmative action in universities allowed educational institutions to consider race as a factor in admitting students as long as it was not used in a mechanical, formulaic manner

Re: # 312

Soyasauce:

I am not that familiar with the set-asides.

The programs that I talked are designed only minority-owned small businesses, and minority women owned small businesses have even easier access.

Anil

#307 anil, thanks for the explanation. However you seem to be conflating small business with minority ownership. While minority owned businesses are more likely to be small businesses, not all small businesses (not even a plurality of them) are minority owned.
If your end goal is to have a vibrant market place where innovative ideas don`t get run over by rich and powerful entities that are slow to change, then encourage ALL small businesses where they can compete with one another and may the best business win. Secondly, if you want to lift up economically depressed areas, then again encourage ANY business that`s willing to set up shop in those places.
I know what you`re saying about needing to look at this from a business vantage point and not necessarily as a moral issue, but desis, having suffered no historic discrimination are simply exploiting a loop hole as others have said.

Re:arjun2#310

[...I am doubly appalled.....I am also appalled that you think those of us who`re making the comments care about you being appalled....]

LOL!!

Arjun, when it comes to wit and sarcasm, you are the champ!! You can give hamidm a run for his money....

#304 by dost-mittar on November 20, 2006 2:54pm PT


I am as apalled by Indian posters` ridiculing behram1`s entrepreneurial skills


I am doubly appalled..

I am appalled that you think behram has any entrepreneurial skills...especially knowing that despite the AA/set-asides thing, he`s just a small time contractor and not an engineer running a big company that he founded or something...

I am also appalled that you think those of us who`re making the comments care about you being appalled.

God, people like this Dost Mitter dude make my stomach turn.

It appears that he was appaled at Behram for what he was saying about Hindoos(sic) and Hindooland(sic). However, he held back his comments all this time so that he could find something to ``balance`` it against -- you know the good old zero sum game.

Ref behram1 #285

[...Have you ever wondered why there are less Persians in the corporate world?]

Because they are all out there on their own selling rugs.

I refer to Iranians as Rug Merchants. Not the Parsis (of India, Pakistan or Iran), just the regular True Believers.

Re: # 282

Soyasouce:

Such programs in wider sense are looked as market distortions. Invariably market distortions are business opportunities.

You can no doubt look at them as expensive and someone must and always pays for it. However, in the long run they provide benefit to the society at large. The rationale for such investment view is that it eventually pays back multi-fold because eventually the purchasing power of the community increases. Thus brings more under the economic prosperity tent.

Initially, transfer of IT business to India was inefficient, and also caused job losses here. Recent McKinsey & Company study has showed that the U.S. corporations in 2 - 3 years have already reaped 60% benefit.

These programs can be viewed as investments in seeding (IT in India) or developing depressed sections (AA in the U.S.).

When people can misuse these programs, there are more who properly use and develop. People who misuse should not go unpunished.

According to Hamidm GM set-asides business. Cisco and Apple also had programs for their suppliers where they gave 5% advantage to minority owned businesses. Their program is different than set-aside, and requires them to compete with the big and established. In fact when a small business is given a 5% advantage, it ends up using it to build itself better, otherwise it can loose out to say electronic manufacturer like, Flextronics. Apple and Cisco have programs to help such small players to improve their processes, and thus create partnerships. Actually, a friend of mine`s small electronic manufacturing company graduated from such a program with Apple, and Cisco to later go public.

Also once an entreprenuer, or organizaion gets an entry ticket on the basis of merit or his / her / its vision, or value proposition, it must develop a street fighter`s instinct to pick the right fight to win, else it will loose its territory. The success is never assured.

Personal values indeed drive the fight one selects. Like Tahmed sahib commented, you and I may choose to select 100% of the pie as the target, rather than 7% set-aside. I know one extremely successful entreprenuer here in Silicon Valley, he is a Jain, and does not invest or gets involved where meat is involved. That did not prevent him from being extremely successful.

Anil

Re:DM#304

We are criticizing behram`s phony act of being some hot-shot enterpreneur doing ``real`` engineering work while looking down on Indian professionals. It turns out that he is nothing but a ``do takey`` ka minority contractor who gets crumbs from the texas state based on affirmative action. Any one else in his shoes would quietly make his living rather than have the audacity to crticize the vast number of desis who are competing openly in the marketplace.

It boggles my mind that people like him can be in so much denial of their own pathetic condition so as to adopt a phony persona and criticize other people who are far superior to them.

Re: # 293 by hamidm2 on November 20, 2006 11:42am PT

[... stop quibbling and let`s see if we can get a piece of this pie - it is biiiiig! ...gm spent $5.6B with minority suppliers last year ...] And that is exactly what corporate America does best, other than screw the real shareholders.

[..if i could get a contract supplying toilet paper to half the gm plants in north america i wouldn`t be here wasting my time talking to you guys -] Just imagine what could be done in Hindoo Land with all those toilet papers!!!!!!

[ i`d be on the beach in the bahamas sipping one of those drinks with an umbrella in it ...]

And hopefully far away from the nuisance of humanity, otherwise also known as Hindoos, huh!

It seems that some of the deformed hindoos on this chowk have taken some extra mirchain. Kiya haal hain hindoun ka? Laagi hay phut phut kiya.

I am as apalled by Indian posters` ridiculing behram1`s entrepreneurial skills as I am of his utterly distasteful comments about Hindoos and Hindooland. Behram is not the first or the last South Asian to make use of the Affirmative Action Program. I am sure the list would include not only Indians and Pakistanis but also Japanese, Chinese and even Arabs. The list of people eliegible for Affirmative Action is ridiculous - Mediterranean Syrians, Lebanese and Egyptians qualify while similarly looking Greeks and Turks don`t but anyone who qualifies for these benefits and does not make use of them is not a true entrepreneur. This is no different from using all kinds of subsidies available for investing in certain regions or certain industries. As an earlier Canadian politician used to say, corporate welfare bums use more tax subsidies than poor people.

Re:behram#292

[..What has merit got to do with being an entrepreneur?...]

Spoken like a true Affirmative Action quota guy. Of course, merit has nothing to do with you or your business, since you do not compete on the basis of merit. You just get work based on the color of your skin. Thank your stars that the white people in US are generous to give you this handout - a charity in fact. In any other country, they would toss your incompetent non-meritorious ass to the curb.

let me re-post what Indian companies are doing without any form of quota or set-asides..

Wipro bags $300 m GM outsourcing deal

in the meantime, behram is stuck being a smalltime contractor doing smalltime jobs..and that too only because he`s using AA..

About 300 of India-Pakistan bashing without the word `Macaca`!!!

I wonder what`s the reason. Must be something to do with Zeemax`s absence till now

Or is it because `Macacas` have finally done something worthwhile?

Handover the Senate to Democrats!

;-)

- Avkrishna

#296 Zeemax has the answer in #294 - behram is overcompensating for lack of intelligence by abuse.

#293 hamidm: please...none of this ``I wouldnt join any club that would take a loser like me as member`` nonsense on chowk. You may see yourself in a certain light, but I am sure there are many other members of chowk who could - if they wanted to, and this includes myself - already be sipping alcohol in the bahamas instead of clicking to chowk. So - just speak for yourself. :-)

#293 hamidm is right. no point quibbling if code-coolie is engineering or not, wage-arbitrage or not, take the IT and component outsourcing and back-office contracts and run for the beach. i mean, if GM needs so much on toilet-paper or septic-tanks, they must spend at least a fraction on componets, and components.

http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_full_story.php?content_id=116484

#296 by CoolAL on November 20, 2006 11:58am PT


For the sake of his family


what family...i think he`s a little over 50 and single...

Time to summarize....

It turns out that big time trash talking Behram is just a small time contractor surviving on the good people of Texas` largesse. He has not denied it. He probably can`t after all fact is a fact. There is nothing wrong with it.

OK, what I fail to understand is, being what he is, why trash talk? Did he think he would never be ``unfrocked``? Why indulge in riligious bigotary of the worst kind?

All right, after being ``defrocked`` why is he still around? It is time Behram stopped posting the garbage he posts on chowk. For the sake of his family and loved ones, he needs to ``change``.

Here is the prescription:

1. Keep your mouth shut and don`t post anything for a period of 30 days.
2. Change your Chowk ID.
3. Smarten up. Don`t rise to the bait.
4. If you have to post, make sure you have something +ve to post.

#293 by hamidm2

... i`d be on the beach in the bahamas ...

So now it is Bahamas ... do I recall your longing for beaches of Lebanon a little while ago?

Various by behram1,

Behram, let`s not rail against any community. Never mind the insults against us Paks, but it`s the truth that everyone has their problems; we have the border problems which stint our progress, while hindoos have their over-compensated inferiority complex with 5 million people squatting on the streets in Bombay alone while outsourced growth is uncertain even for their middle classes. It`s all a game which Indians want to play so let them play it. In my opinion, the only answer is regional, and not global, but India knows nothing.

In any event, it is nearly impossible to change a mindset. So, let it be. Things have a manner of sorting themselves out in the best interests of mankind.

............ stop quibbling and let`s see if we can get a piece of this pie - it is biiiiig! ...gm spent $5.6B with minority suppliers last year ............. if i could get a contract supplying toilet paper to half the gm plants in north america i wouldn`t be here wasting my time talking to you guys - i`d be on the beach in the bahamas sipping one of those drinks with an umbrella in it .......

http://www.gmsupplierdiversity.com/

Re: # 288 by ranjit on November 20, 2006 11:09am PT

Ranjit:

Did you know how Tata got started? Back in the British Raj when he was lucky to get a break. So there is no comparison between me being a Tata, or a Birla, or a Godreg.

What sort of an expectation do you have of me? eh! Are you that stupid?

And this is how you respond to my question.

[..Have you ever wondered why there are less Persians in the corporate world?
....]

{If you want to do business, open a company and compete with everyone fair and square. Thats what most parsee enterpreneurs do like the Tatas in India.}

And what does it actually mean? fair and square in business? Are you suggesting that some how Affirmative Action is illegal?

{They have my respect since they operate based on merit. }

Who is asking for respect from a Hindoo who is filled with hate towards anything Pakistani?

{You are not in that league since you live off affirmative action. Do you understand that?}

And no where did I claim to be in any league. It is the hindoos from your country who are defining the issues, as well as the answers to their own developed issues.

I have always maintained, and still do that Pakistan produces the best Engineers in South Asia, and are very capable to meet the savagery of Hindoo hatred. Now, do you understand that?

{I am all for enterpreneurship but I hate affirmative action, since that symbolizes poor quality and lack of merit.}

No, you are a baighairat naukar, and love to boast of your employment. The very first thing an entrepreneur does is to disgrace his present condition of being an employee. His burning desire to be free is more than the paycheck that he gets.

You are far from being an entrepreneur.

{Here is a challenge - Drop your minority status and compete openly. We will see how intelligent and meritorious you are. If you cannot do that, then shut up and don`t talk about intelligence or IQ.}

Just look at your mind set of an employee. What has merit got to do with being an entrepreneur?

Ranjit, you should take a course of entrepreneur 101, and see what you can learn.

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 281 by krishna_abcd on November 20, 2006 10:04am PT

Lord Krishna:

Which part of my posts you don`t understand? Being in corporations, being in the city, being in the federal government, etc. is for furnitures and not for engineers. Will you ever get this in to your head?

As usual, you miss the whole discussion. It is the engineers that Pakistanis are proud of. Hindoos are not capable of handling plumbing business, just look at your squatter land that you boast about as Hindoo Land.

{Unlike these Hindoos that work for NASA and Bell Labs and Microsoft.} And all the garbage bhangis in these corporations are Hindoos, are they not?

All the world`s bakwas will not convince the world that hindoo land is somehow better than investment in China. Begging bowl has its limit and the world knows it.

Hindoos, you just wait till Hu Jintao reaches Pakistan by November 20, and all hell breaks loose in your hindoo land.

Respectfully submitted,

#289 by arjun2

Just to put you in your place, here`s a gift:

Antiseptic aftershave made of gaomutra, Delhi.

#285 by behram1 on November 20, 2006 11:03am PT



blah blah blah


Even with set-asides, you are a small time contractor with pretensions of being a big time businessman...

YOu can only get the small time contracts because you`ve listed yourself as disadvantaged(and you are...mentally disadvantaged)...

Re:behram

[..Have you ever wondered why there are less Persians in the corporate world?
....]

If you want to do business, open a company and compete with everyone fair and square. Thats what most parsee enterpreneurs do like the Tatas in India. They have my respect since they operate based on merit.

You are not in that league since you live off affirmative action. Do you understand that? I am all for enterpreneurship but I hate affirmative action, since that symbolizes poor quality and lack of merit.

Here is a challenge - Drop your minority status and compete openly. We will see how intelligent and meritorious you are. If you cannot do that, then shut up and dont talk about intelligence or IQ.

behram #285 I beg to sit on the other side of the table on this issue, for reasons provided in #286.

Hope all is well with you.

anil #280 I realize that there are always exceptions to every rule. But most people who are successful are the one`s who focus not on the loopholes but on the substance. You can focus on the 7 (or 15%), or you can focus on the 100% of the substance - the substance being ``honesty is the best policy`` - towards clients, towards colleagues, towards business partners, towards staff, and towards society. I think Fastow (or Ken Lay or Zia, if you have a connection to wherever they are now) would second this proposition now. :-) As would any successful businessman or corporate executive or individual service provider (artist, computer programmer, bricklayer, whatever).

Re: # 278 by ranjit on November 20, 2006 9:39am PT

Dear Ranjit:

Of course Ranjit, you have to be right. Hindoos are in the majority in Hindoo Land, and they have a right to discriminate. And Muslims are in the majority in Pakistan, and they will suggest ill-towards the minorities. Hindoos in Pakistan complain the same discrimination that muslims in India complain about. Hindoos do get some preferential treatment in Pakistan, so does the Balochis, the Sindhis, and the Pathans, and believe it or not so does the Pakistani military personnel.

It is one of the few advantages that a minority gets all over the enlightened world. And Pakistan is one such country.

{You are an affirmative action guy, period. That means you are a no merit. Just ask any white american and he will tell you what he thinks of affirmative action.}

And I am proud to be a fighter for this right. Just like you, an average white guy is made for the benefit of corporations. The same corporations that rants and rave of lack of qualified people, goes to Congress and tells them that they need over 81,000 H1B visa holders because they can not find any qualified candidate in these United States.

Corporations are the biggest liars, tricksters, and deceivers of the US economy. What would these thugs know about merit, eh!

The affirmative action was brought in during the civil rights movements, and who has been the biggest beneficiary of this law. The large corporations of course. But it takes high level enlightenment in these things for a paindoo from Hindoo Land to comprehend.

{So just stay that way and dont pretend that you have talent or merit to compete with other Indians or Pakistanis.}

I have always maintained that on a per person basis, Pakistanis are much more intelligent than your people from the Hindoo Land. And that is due to the fact, hindoos believe in ``ghulami`` of the corporation and that is where they get their dignity from. Have you ever wondered why there are less Persians in the corporate world?

When in fact during the Shah`s time US was infested with Persians all over California. And they were all studying engineering. Heck, they brought a revolution from the US, but they never worked for the corporation. Unlike hindoos, they disliked being some corporation`s furniture. And that is exactly what your society has ingrained in you.

All you hindoos can do is be suck ups, and never earn a living in a dignified way. And small businesses are just that route. Hopefully, this interaction will provide you with some food for thought that you have come from a loosing society.

Respectfully submitted,

Re:anil#271

[..Therefore, you are ready to beat the unrelieved human waste out of this human form, after doing that you want no prisoners to carry...]

Anil, we are actually going easy on Behram. We are just royally humiliating him in front of everyone and putting him in his place as far as merit/talent is concerned.

Given what he spouts here, if the Texas DOT and other agencies hear about it, he will lose his minority status and, god forbid, actually have to compete in the mainstream. But we dont want his family to suffer from unemployment, just because he is an idiot.

Re:#280 by anil on November 20, 2006 9:54am PT

(Loop hole is different than seven (7) percent set aside provided by the system.)

If you don`t know anything on the subject matter, it is best to sit on the side lines and learn. Actually, when all is said and done it is somewhere closer to over 15%.

Remember the line ``when all is said and done``.

#261 beautiful post! When i compare what my nephews and nieces are going thru compared to the childhood that i had, which was as well-rounded as possible, i worry for their long-term sanity.. The issue discusses here tho is higher education and your observations are not that relevant.

#278 ranjit,
I think Anil is talking about competitive business advantage and you are talking in terms of an individual making the decision. I agree with you it`s dishonest to game a system set up to help those who have suffered systemic discrimination as blacks and women have in this country. It also makes businesses less competitive since they don`t have try as hard as mainstream companies. It`s like trying to justify bribery - everyone else does it so i must too - which imo is a crime perpetrated on the vast majority of nonbribers. The difference of course is gaming AA is not illegal.

misc. by behram-baba

The Hindoos are at it once again trying to show this good man in the wrong light. The Hindoos need to understand that unlike them, behram-baba deserves the hand-outs he begs for and gets. Because unlike the Hindoos, he is genuinely disdvantaged. His membership in the mentally retarded people`s association alone makes him eligible. Combine with that the fact that he is from Mooosla land, where people actually marry their own cousins (no, not goats - the goats are only for companionship), and you will realize that his claim of being mentally disadvantaged is as genuine as it gets.

Behram baba`s company gets first dibs on all the septic-tank cleanings in his area. In fact, even the Mexican immigrants let him clean their septic tanks.

And the sheer gall of these Hindoos to suggest that he cannot take on ambitious projects! The Hindoos need to remember that behram-baba is a PE, no less! Why, only the other day he cleaned a huge septic tank all by himself. Like a real PE. Unlike these Hindoos that work for NASA and Bell Labs and Microsoft. And while some of that stuff in the septic tank did get into behram-baba`s brain, it did not affect him at all. Because he already had camel-dung in there. So it was an improvement.

So there!

Re: # 277

Tahmed sahib:

Loop hole is different than seven (7) percent set aside provided by the system. I am not a proponent of such a set-aside. Please do not see it as a loop hole, that woul be incorrect in my view. That is my only point. If you would not use it, and your competition does, you have created a competitive disadvantage for yourself.

Anil

Re: # 271

Ranjit:

In you post your argument is based on ethical and personal values. I will talk about the competition. It is difficult to argue with Peter Drucker when he said that “the competition brings out the best of products, and the worst of people.”

Therefore, from your perspective, it could be a case of human waste from the wrong side of the border, being consigned in human form to the capital city of a red-neck state, And even worse, since the human form has not freely relieved himself in freedom by the railroad tracks, while enjoying the morning freshness of the open septic tanks, a service he provides to earn livelihood. Therefore, this human form stinks more. The competitive profile gets even more complicated because from the perspective, it could be a case of the lowest self-esteem, as the human form is a Gujrati speaking Parsee Gujju. So the personal profile of the competition is messed up, as the competitor is from the wrong side of the border, who does not want to call himself Parsee. This defines the worst of the people part of the competition.

Given this profile, the competitor can do anything and indeed does. Therefore, you are ready to beat the unrelieved human waste out of this human form, after doing that you want no prisoners to carry.

Now for the best of the product / service what would you do?
Will you concede any advantage?
Will you not use all resources and benefits available to you from the system to compete, because even if you don’t your competition will?

With the seven (7) percentage advantage that the system offers to the competition, it will come with better product / service, or even create a better life style for himself and his employees, the reason system has set-aside seven (7) percent. We all need “profits” to create greater values. The competition did not create the system, system created the competition. The most important is to create the equity, however you define it, monetary or otherwise. Think about it. This perspective is important, as we all face competition.

I hope you can see my view point.

Anil

Re:behram#274, 275

You are an affirmative action guy, period. That means you are a no merit. Just ask any white american and he will tell you what he thinks of affirmative action.

So just stay that way and dont pretend that you have talent or merit to compete with other Indians or Pakistanis. People on this forum like Romair, Hamidm, Tahmed, Anil, Mself and others are self-made people based on merit. We dont live on racial handouts like you do.

majumadar #259 My congratulations to you my friend, and to your father, for making it on the basis of merit. And thanks for providing an example of what ranjit was talking about when he referred to not using loopholes in the system.

anil #260 While I have a lot of respect for Drucker, no man is the fount of all wisdom. My own experience has been otherwise - I have seen a high-flying executive in a large international organization (a Harvard MBA to boot) go down in humiliation as his attempt to take advantage of loopholes to beat the system finally caught up with him. And I have seen personal friends and family members build successful businesses by focussing on providing real value rather than gimmickry to the client.

More broadly - ever wonder why the US has steadily moved to the forefront of nations, providing inspiration to progressive people around the world (despite fierce opposition from Kings, Communist Leaders, Nazi Feuhrers, Confederate Slave-holders each of whom posed a far greater threat than the two-bit mullahs of today)? And Bush, who listened to people who forgot this heritage, is clearly among the few exceptions among US presidents who prove the rule.

This question was explored by de Tocqueville, the frenchmann who visited to the US in 1851 to see why the American Revolution succeeded in implementing a democratic society while the French Revolution failed? What distinguished the US from the France of 1851 he decided was the Rule of Law, and the checks and balances (between federal, state and local governments in the first instance, and between the three branches of government in the next) to make sure that no individual could take advantage of loopholes in the system forever. So, sir, honesty is indeed the best policy - whether at the individual level, or at the corporate level, or at the level of an entire nation.

PS: de Tocqueville was widely read by Frenchmen, and no doubt that America`s example contributed to the steady democratization of French society that had started with its emerging middle class through the violent 1848 revolution.

PPS: As a Pakistani, I think we should all be reading de Tocqueville since we are no further in democracy today that France was a 150 years ago - and so his study of Democracy in America is as relevant to Pakistan today as it was to France in the mid-19th century. The US had already taken that path towards the Rule of Law even while the Pilgrims had not yet set foot on American soil by signing the Mayflower Compact way back in 1620!!

Interesting that some here don’t even understand affirmative action program after living in the US for sometime. Behram clearly has a better understanding of the program as it is applied in the corporate world and at the US, State, county and city levels.

Briefly, the affirmative action program provides a level playing field to everyone in the US who is not a “White Caucasian male”. If you are NOT a white Caucasian male, you are a number in the affirmative action program, whether you know it or not.

There is no Izzat issue involved with this. Period.

For businesses, the minority ownership and other disadvantage groups are allowed to claim the status to provide equal opportunity to all start up businesses. Once they go beyond a threshold, they are often themselves not interested in the affirmative action set-asides.

Relying on state listing to show that someone is still claiming a minority status is not accurate either. Often the State or the county governments don’t update their database as the most recent info is not available to them.

#272 by behram1 on November 20, 2006 8:02am PT




blah blah blah


Bottom line: you are a small time contractor who couldn`t hack it without a quota...

Re: # 257 by ranjit on November 19, 2006 8:28pm PT

Dear Ranjit:

You ugly duckling.

Almost all my post has been authentic and to the contexts of the points addressed. Yours and other hindoo`s style of gangsterism is not warranted.

So you get involved because...

{But just look at his language against others - check out his crap in posting 125 to Romair. What a hypocrite!! }

And being a dhoti-clad hindoo you suggest that you can articulate Romair`s views?

A typical unenlightened squatter land individual. You are totally bogus, and you know that.

Respectfully submitted,

As usual this post has nuances which only could come from a corrupt mind. One such nuances is that

{This does not mean I am for quota system, actually I am not.}

A typical bourgeois mind set with double speak. How can one be called a democrat with being anti-labor? Only a hindoo mind set would know best, no clarity of thought or diction.

Re: # 248 by ranjit on November 19, 2006 2:46pm PT

Dear Ranjit:

As usual you know diddly squat about how businesses are run in the US. Affirmative action is not a ``hand out,`` as you might think. It is for businesses to even out the playing field. Actually, this is what large corporations like Boeing, GE, etc. are also committed to. It is not a set aside, and that is where most of the naysayers about affirmative action suggests. Unfortunately, for the majority white crowd, they lack this particular tool in their arsenal to destroy small and minority businesses. But, they have a women owned business enterprise, WBE, which they use extensively.

If you want to get a statistic on how many businesses are strictly minority owned and how many are women owned you will be amazed that white women have taken as many advantages as possible on this route.

Actually, the white people have developed this women leadership in Sports as well under Title IX, and therefore you will see many women owned sports business.

Now, let me respond to individual bogus thought that you have expressed in your posts.


{Now you can join the ranks of Hamidm`s favorite people - those who live off government cheese.} Actually this not government cheese.


{We all know what affirmative action means. Its basically a government set aside for people like you who cannot compete in the open world. If it were not for affirmative action, your business would fold up and you would be unemployed. In the future, don`t talk about merit and quality to any Indian, except the scheduled caste/tribe people who are like you in terms of benefiting from quotas. }

No actually you do not have the foggiest idea as to what affirmative action means.

Most Indian/Pakistani kids get into universities based on this affirmative action law. They get teaching assignments on this as well. They get hired in corporation as well. The city is infested by these people on the affirmative action as well. Ask ant HR person of any large corporation, and they have a tough time to fulfill the need of affirmative action.

So they take the next best white man`s solution, and they hire white women under the cloak of affirmative action.

Affirmative action is not welfare.

{Most Indians like myself who have come to the US have competed ONLY on the basis of merit all our life. No affirmative action, no quotas, no chacha-tau, no sifarish. Its plain old merit based on capability. We openly compete with goras and we win most of the time. We can rightfully boast about ourselves, but you cannot. Do you understand that? }

And that is exactly where you are mistaken. Just because you are unaware about most Indians and their intellectual capabilities, you can continue your bogus drumbeat. It is actually illogical to claim what you just claimed, and then at the same breath you denigrate Pakistani educated people. How can that be logical?

You are unable to look around and notice how the majority Hindoos have discriminated against the minorities in India. But that you will open up another can of issues that is not required at this time.

For those hindoos from Hindoo Land, affirmative action has been a bonanza. Look at all those hindoo squatters from the squatter land being employed for the city or state, and any sensible person (unlike you) would recognize that it was the best thing that could have happened.

{As far as freedom of thought is concerned, that is laughable. You are at the mercy of some government bureaucrat for your bread and butter. They throw you crumbs of work just to satisfy legal requirements. }

Actually, here once again, and as usual, you don`t know what you are talking about. Most of my companies business is from the private sector and not from the public sector. And that is exactly why I believe that the hindoo lot from the Hindoo Land is missing out big time in developing some great minority run business.

And now just to answer your rhetorical questions:

{Can you take on really ambitious projects in the open market?} Yes.

{Can you do what your mind fancies?} Of course, within law.

{Can you compete with gora companies in Texas based on merit?} Sure, why not?

{Of course you cannot. So dont talk about freedom.} How can ask and then answer your own question. Are you serious with your diatribe?

Now to continue with my style of humiliating hindoos from Hindoo Land.

Do you have any idea how big the US defence budget is? and all those code coolies who think big in remaining employed could only have the guts to start their own business (even as part of the affirmative action)...

But, alas, hindoos are destined to remain in servitude.

Respectfully submitted,

Re:anil #260

Anil, the objective in life is not just to maximize net worth in dollar terms. But it is also to gain social acceptance or as we say in India ``izzat``. When I interact with my relatives and friends - desi and non-desi, I do not want them to make snide comments that I am an affirmative action case. I am sure you are well aware how americans stigmatize affirmative action equating it automatically with poor quality and lack of merit. Similarly most Indians stigmatize quotas as well - just ask any SC/ST student who uses quotas and gets into IIT. They are treated like pariahs.

So, if izzat and the opinion of your relatives and your social circle means nothing to you, go ahead with affirmative action. I would find it most embarassing.

Re:burpy#261

You are right on. Education in India is very tough and ultra competitive. In fact, the level of competition is just insane. I remember the nightmare year when I was preparing for the IIT JEE. It was one non-stop marathon each day with school, Agarwal classes and then studying at home. One of the things about IIT JEE is that it is not enough that you are smart, you also need to put in extreme levels of effort. I have heard of many cases where kids have committed suicide on not getting into IIT.

Undergrad life in IIT is also very competitive. Each kid is basically some sort of a topper from his school. So grades and rankings become a bloodsport from day one. As compared to all that, grad school and corporate life in US is a picnic.

In fact, when I see the life of 17-21 year olds in the US, I am so full of envy. These kids have a much more well rounded lifestyle and they also settle down and get established. We desis have a one track focus on academics and I am not sure if that is the best system in the long run.

Indian Scholarships for Outstanding Pakistani Students -
Good idea. Its a `doable` as compared to say trying to resolve kashmir or siachin. No summit is required to execute it. We will probably have to start small and focus on low hanging fruit. The grander accomplishments will follow.

As mentioned in the article ``Such a gesture should not be contingent on Pakistan reciprocating. `` - This is something india is fully capable of doing unilaterally and pakistan will be forced to reciprocate.

Even from a purely political perspective, its an opportunity for one of the two nations to take lead and cultivate tremendous goodwill - something that we have been trying to achieve via hollow propaganda in this region. The country that reciprocates will never derive the same political mileage from such an offer as the one taking original initiative.

Cheers
tayyab rashid

Re: # 261
I couldn`t agree more, Burpie. I feel so envious when I see the freedom Australian children have to chart their own course in life, and how learning can actually be a pleasure. Schooldays in India were a nightmare, and so different from schooldays in England for me.

Re: # 261

Mr.B youhave read right. I talk to my mental doctor and when I go talk to children who are suffering. It cames to my mind the most pressured cooked people are children and frightened due to real anxities if they have no proper marks. The adult have much easier well defined life and no woory about passing exams.

Re: # 265

Dude madani, whateva you`re on, I want me some of dat!

Re: # 261

How opposed to software experts hardware get paid? How they are viewed by people. What is their nature of work? Are there any hardware people who can right. Tanks and general their life style, like softy we know the lifestyle. Thanks

One thing I forgot in #261:

behram ``retardO`` gunnewale, your ASS is **so** owned....mwahahahahaha!

(bows and exits)

Re: # 243

Good seconding to my thinking.Do ordinary work extra ordinary way. I think even prime and presidents have hard time as after election or by coup after two day even they have job to do and there no good job..

Re: # 243
Thank you Mr.Z for explaining my point od view. It is always better to have inferior brain but better hand coordanation , I belong to this category and you can work hard and make hard earned honest money. Now personally I do not think people who makes lots of money, many just sitting in chair and useing just mind are making honest money. Money should be earned by hard work old fashioned way. That is reason I am for long time for not even low tech but no tech and earning honest hard earned money.

Now I am conveninced Lord Krishna is IIT man. Look he is trying to set up against me Mr.Behram. ( personally on KSE a insurance company by Parsee group is good,when it was down I brought shares and now they are gentleman and my confidence was rewarded. Recently they brought new company. Now it Start A and ends with JEE, it has other letters like m and d etc) I was just giving example of hard work and unreferenced to any thing. I am simple man wants to keep away from minefields as my mind is weak and so plez bear with my metal capacity and deliquencies. It would have been better if he said branch proper. It better to be from hard branches as you can always fall back. Now that Jayen is feasting on dead bodies, he is going to create problems, its ok but now say it as again people will blame him for price rise of dead animals.
I am told in America no digging is done by man or woman as mostly done by automatic machines. Hope Lord Krishna disclose his branch we can ask questions for little things repair things and save money.
Good day.

To my poor deluded Paki brethren (including the author)

Why on EARTH anyone in their right mind would want to come to India to study is an idea funny beyond belief. We have the most ridiculously unfair system of learning in the world- one in which absolutely ZERO weightage is provided to the arts, sports or anything resembling fun. We start teaching our kids ABC at an age they should be romping about parks tugging at each others hair (and learning some real social skills in the bargain). I hear it`s about two and something years now.

Five year olds are castigated in report cards for ``poor communication skills`` and taught to affix articles on nouns (``an apple``, ``a pear``). Kids are kept indoors, 80 to a dingy barely ventilated room, 3 to a bench, in repressive uniforms too quickly outgrown. Teachers- those beacons of paragon and virtue- are kept on the rolls on annual contracts, taking home about 2000 INR a month ( a BMC sweeper some years ago drew 7K plus benefits). No wonder some crack and hurl dusters at kids` heads occasionally.

And the students? By accident or sheer will, one little fish swims through the mire and makes it upstream, a lone salmon spawn of idli-selling, lower-caste parents, who cracks the IIMs and becomes an entrepreneur, hailed as the success story to be upheld by many. What about most of the poor fish that just give up, get sucked into the understream and disappear?

English-medium schools are better off, relatively, than their ``vernie`` counterparts. But political exigiency demands that these be the prerogative of those who can afford them only; the poor huddled masses deserve to be kept in their misery, so that they can faithfully vote for those who shout the loudest on their behalf every five years.

The children of the progressive elite remain sheltered in their air-conditioned ivory towers with horse riding classes and piano lessons for the most discerning (read- moneyed). They realise soon enough that all the alternative education systems in the world cannot protect then from the harsh reality of daily 3-hour vomiting sessions that pass off as board examinations every year for two weeks in March. Hopefully daddy`s prepared his nest egg and bundles off lil one to the US or Australia at the earliest, or else queue up for the great rigamarole of entrance examinations, capitation fees and minority quotas that dot the undergraduate landscape.

By the time you`ve somehow managed to get through your undergrad, you`re so battered, bruised, disillusioned or plain disgusted by this farce of a ``system`` that you`re just thankful you`re smart enough to have affixed a ``chhaapa`` to your name- IAS/IIT/IIM/NIFT or whatever. Or that you`re dad was smart enough to have accumulated his wealth, ill-gotten or otherwise, for you to live a comfortable life, whatever that means. Little wonder most of us just grab the first schol we can from the first Univ that`ll take us and head to the land of the free. The rest scramble madly for whatever few good jobs are available, hoping that in two decades or three, we`d be able to break free and set our own course doing what we really want to do- teach ballet, write poetry, join politics...

And yes, of course- give OUR kids the kind of lives we never enjoyed ;))))

Re: # 258

Tahmed Sahib:

I understand the sentiments that you and Majumdar have expressed. The market acts differently though. Peter Drukker a management guru is often quoted to have said that ``the competition brings the best of products and the worst of people``. The rules are defined, we have to play by the rule.

The market rarely rewards holier than thou. Therefore, when you do not want to play by the system for emotional reasons, you are creating a competitive disadvantage for yourself and stacking the cards against yourself, and giving an advantage to your competitor.

On the merit based you got the entry into the ring. Once in please play by the rule. Can you imagine, Shaq O`neill saying that once he gets the ball, he slowly walk as others might get hurt, and since he so good that he can afford to do it. You have only one chance to win the match.

The merit and ability has brought Majumdar, Ranjit etc. to the ring. Now they have to think and act like what is called as the street fighter. The street fighter has only one chance to fight to win his territory. Therefore, he needs to pick the right fight that he can win. If he creates a handicap for himself, due to his sentiments. He is setting himself to give competition over him. If the system allows South Asians to use the set-asides, and they do not use then it is not business. This is my point.

In Ivy league admissions, South Asian and Chinese applicants selection criteria is stricter than white Americans, still they have disproportionate representation. If the criteria for set-aside should be exclude South Asians then it can be changed, just as it was changed to allow.

This does not mean I am for quota system, actually I am not. My point is when the system is set up, please use it, else someone else will.

Anil

Tahmed sahib,

(My view is that that one should not look for loopholes and other ``short-cuts`` to success. )

I agree with your views. I belong to a SC family, my father who was a first generation to get any schooling in his family did use reservations. But both my brother and I chose to shun reservations ( as it would have been unethical since we had a fairly privileged background and educated parents) and feel proud that whatever little we have achieved is purely through our own merit.


Regards,

#255 This is an interesting issue - to use some loophole (affirmative action in this case) in a system to one`s advantage even if it means going beyond the broader intent of the loophole or not. Your advice to ranjit is to use the loophole. Ranjit #257 argues otherwise, saying that this is unethical.

My view is that that one should not look for loopholes and other ``short-cuts`` to success. This not just because of some abstract concept of ethics or to make some god or God happy - but because ``honesty is the best policy`` is ultimately the what separates the winners from the losers in the marketplace. I have seen this proven true over and over and over again in virtually every walk of life - in large corporations and in small businesses and in personal relations.

Re:anil and DM

As you said, affirmative action is to overcome systemic discrimination. There has been no systemic discrimination against Indians and Pakistanis in the US. In fact, I find positive discrimination i.e. based on IIT credentials and so forth, there is an eagerness to hire us in certain sectors. So ethically, we have no case for affirmative action.

It is another thing that based on our skin color, we can use affirmative action as a back door for some short cut to success. That is a questionable practice and I find it shameful and unnecessary, since I have done quite well without it. There is a well deserved stigma against affirmative action in US society and I do not want such stigma on my name.

In any case, if a desi does use affirmative action, the least he can do is to be humble about it and keep quiet. My objection is that Behram makes his living based on affirmative action while casting aspersions on the capabilities of Indians who compete with the mainstream. He himself has no capability to compete and lives on race based handouts. But just look at his language against others - check out his crap in posting 125 to Romair. What a hypocrite!!

ranjit#255:

The affirmative action is there for a reason, and that is to overcome systemic discrimination. I do not know about the States but in Canada, for most jobs in the organized sector, you are asked under the Employment Equity Program to identify if you belong to any of the four disadvantaged groups in Canada, which are: Women, Natives, Persons with Disability, and Visible Minorities. Almost everyone identifies himself or herself accordingly, but there are some people who refuse to do so, some even fearing that employers might use their visible minority status to screen them out instead of favouring them.

Re: # 250

Ranjit:

``If someone takes advantage of affirmative action quotas and set asides, fine with me. I have too much self respect and ghairat to do that, but if someone wants to exploit his skin color that is their choice. ``

The later part of the above statement will give you a competitive disadvantage, something you really do not want it. The best is make business decision on business facts. It is a very competitive place. There is really nothing wrong in using what system offers.

Anil

Re:hamidm#252

[............ i will be perfectly honest and admit that i wish i had followed up on just one of the many bar conversations i have had with people over the past twenty years on setting up a minority business - unfortunately after the third or fourth drink we got a little distracted....]

Hamidm sahib, who are you kidding? You are a merit based person like myself. People like us find it shameful and beghairat to go the affirmative action route, whether it is for business or jobs, since we have too much self-respect. If we start a business, we will compete with everyone, just like we do in the job market. At least I can never tolerate being smeared as an affirmative action person.

Sure minority contractors can make money, but then the corner panwallah in Delhi makes money, the gujju grocery store owner makes money. It does not mean that we will become panwallahs or indian grocery store owners. There is something called self-respect and honor.

#252 by hamidm2 on November 19, 2006 3:50pm PT


who have done the same and are now running billion dollar `minority` companies


except the fact that retardo is a small time contractor with delusions of being a millionaire businessman-engineer...

he`s just another paki confusing his own self-delusions with reality....

arjun, ranjit ........

.......... i will be perfectly honest and admit that i wish i had followed up on just one of the many bar conversations i have had with people over the past twenty years on setting up a minority business - unfortunately after the third or fourth drink we got a little distracted ............. i know many many indian, paki, turkish, nigerian and african americans who have taken advantage of the 7% set aside by the auto companies for minority suppliers and are now multi millionaires ........ there are many african american executives from fortune 100 companies who have done the same and are now running billion dollar `minority` companies ........ if there is a loophole the elephant will find it .......... it is not the elephant`s fault .........

For every syntel, I can name one cirrus logic and one tibco...

The fact of the matter is that retardo here is a small time contractor who only gets small time contracts like installing card readers only because of affirmative action..listing himself as disadvantaged...

Re:hamidm#249

[.....how many indian owned companies do you want me to list that are classified as a `minolrity owned business` ????.................. let`s start with syntel which has its headquarters 2 miles from home....]

Well, at least the owner of Syntel is not coming on a public forum and pretending that he is doing ``real`` engineering work or exercising freedom of thought. At least he is not viciously denigrating others who are competing on merit.

If someone takes advantage of affirmative action quotas and set asides, fine with me. I have too much self respect and ghairat to do that, but if someone wants to exploit his skin color that is their choice. But in that case, they should shut up and not pretend that they are meritorious, when they are clearly not. It is hypocritical to boast about your ``accomplishments`` when you are living on handouts. Apne aukat mein rehna chahiye.

Re: # 248

ranjit mian,

``Most Indians like myself who have come to the US have competed ONLY on the basis of merit all our life. No affirmative action, no quotas, no chacha-tau, no sifarish. `` .......... really ? ...........

.............how many indian owned companies do you want me to list that are classified as a `minolrity owned business` ????.................. let`s start with syntel which has its headquarters 2 miles from home - it was started in 1980 as a minority owned business by bharat desai and neerja sethi .............. it is basically a sweat shop with 7500 employees and a revenue of 226 million ..........if you do the math, it turns out its revenue per employee is 30,000 compared to the 175,000 for its competition like ibm global services or eds - go figure ! ......... i am not saying there is anything wrong with that but it does explain the fact why we call these people code coolies .............. in any case syntel is a`` Corporate Plus member of the National Minority Supplier Development Council (NMSDC); Member of Michigan Minority Business Development Council; and certified as a Minority Business Enterprise by several other organizations``

............ let me know if you want any other examples ........... and that is exactly why i am against this kind of `affirmative action` and set-asides - it is exploited by middle and upper class folks and has very little, if any, impact on the disadvantaged ..............

Re:behram1#247

[..It is not the Texas voter that created the affirmative action. It is a federal law, and is being practiced all over the country. It helps the small business community....]

Bawaji, so you admit that you are living off affirmative action. Good to hear you admit it. Now you can join the ranks of Hamidm`s favorite people - those who live off government cheese. We all know what affirmative action means. Its basically a government set aside for people like you who cannot compete in the open world. If it were not for affirmative action, your business would fold up and you would be unemployed. In the future, dont talk about merit and quality to any Indian, except the scheduled caste/tribe people who are like you in terms of benefiting from quotas.

Most Indians like myself who have come to the US have competed ONLY on the basis of merit all our life. No affirmative action, no quotas, no chacha-tau, no sifarish. Its plain old merit based on capability. We openly compete with goras and we win most of the time. We can rightfully boast about ourselves, but you cannot. Do you understand that?

As far as freedom of thought is concerned, that is laughable. You are at the mercy of some government bureaucrat for your bread and butter. They throw you crumbs of work just to satisfy legal requirements. Can you take on really ambitious projects in the open market? Can you do what your mind fancies? Can you compete with gora companies in Texas based on merit? Of course you cannot. So dont talk about freedom.

Re: # 236 by ranjit on November 19, 2006 5:18am PT

Dear Ranjit:

You, being a hindoo, are totally ignorant of the fact that affirmative action is based on the place of birth, and not your race. As such all people from South Asia are considered disadvantage, and this also goes for employment in corporations as well.

For example, in Universities as well, special considerations are given in admissions to disadvantaged children, and it not just for blacks and Latinos. Many South Asians and people from far east are also included.

So being born in Pakistan, I was once again blessed by that country.

{But Behram has been lashing out at hindus as squatting on rail tracks, code coolies and what not. He was even fighting on some other board that just because he owns his own company that does ``real`` engineering, he is superior to Indians who work in corporations for others.}

And I still suggest that software code coolie`s work is not your basic engineering work. Actually, some of the hindoo interactors have also suggested that as well. For being an engineer and remaining as such are two different thing. Hindoo engineers who went after some pie-in-the-sky dream of becoming wealthy and left their impressive education should be blamed as ignorant about what engineering is all about.

Working for corporations, or academia, or the bureaucrats are not meant for the true engineer at heart. Becoming a furniture at one of these places of work does make one more interested in standardization of processes and not in creating the next great infrastructure.

{Now it turns out that this loser is just a minority contractor who palms off the largesse of Texas voters who have created affirmative action programs, mainly for latinos and blacks. Even his net worth is a piddly amount compared to anyone who has lived for a few years in the US and has held a job, let alone an enterpreneur. So this is his real ``aukad``. }

You are wrong once again. It is not the Texas voter that created the affirmative action. It is a federal law, and is being practiced all over the country. It helps the small business community.

Yes, you are correct about the net worth issue when you compare it to those who hold a job, since our fixed business assets that is part of the business and our places of residence is not counted as part of the net asset.

The main difference that is missed by corporate garbage like you is the fact that we (who are in our own businesses) have freedom of thought and corporate furnitures like yourselves don`t. And that is the main distinction that may never get into your think skull, because that is your ``aukat`` that was constantly drummed in you while being raised in India.

Hindoos will never be able to dream about being free.

Respectfully submitted,

bjkumar #219
Well, interacting here that might constitute conflict of interest, hm.

arjun#220
I can`t think of an equivalent situation in any other country in the world apart from Pakistan where armed civilian militias of 10s or 100s of thousands abound and the `liberal` elite consistently and constantly terms it hatred or malevolence when anyone refers to them.

Re: # 237 by jay1 on November 19, 2006 6:00am PT

Dear Jayen Sahib:

You are incorrect. Much before Alexander showed up to kick the Persian Zoroastrian Darius` kingdom, it was Artaxexes son of Cyrus, the Achamenian Persian, who was the first person who showed the Greeks how to raze the city of Athens.

{The same Greco Romans (Macedonians) under Alexander, a mere 10,000 cavalry arrayed against the full might of the persians around 300,000...defeated and made history of the persians a la carthage!!
Persepolis was burnt to the ground!
And lo and behold we had Parsees ``flocking to meek and poor India``!! }

Heck, during Alexander`s time he went all the way to Punjab to kick some hindooo`s butt. How could the defeated Persians go ever go to India?

Actually, Alexander and his troops go so enamored with the Persians that he married one of Daraius` sister.

And as it regards to Parsees, they were once again, kicked by the muslim invading Arabs, and that is when they flocked towards India.

Hopefully that would be enough for your education.

Respectfully submitted,

harimau#213:

As far as I know, my friend did not have anyone to push him, although he had already spent more than ten years at that time as student and teacher at Delhi University and, so, must have known quite a few people with influence. But I wonder if you made allowance for the fact that this was a time when computer science faculties were being set up and the most prized skill at that time was software/programming and not hardware/engineering. There were probably not too many ready-made graduates in computer sciences anywhere. I am, of course, fairly certain that people with a similar skill-set wont be able to find the job even a lecturer today.

#241 by krishna_abcd

ahmedmadani saheb is making a larger point here which you missed. I think what he means is that just IQ is not the definition of intelligence, rather it is how one accomplishes a particular task in the best possible way.

#224 by ahmedmadani

[Sorry if you are IITian and happy to interact with graduate of IIT. Now I do not want to specualte as my friends but you are computer or other enng type...

...Hope to here from you about your specialization from IIT. ]


It is in one of the ``core`` engineering disciplines, sir, and not in Computer Science.


[Now gentleman Tahmed got confused about my knowlege about some water thing. Again water resources are better done by no tech way. My knowledge is not knowledge but information. Here how no tech is better than Hifh Tech.
Now we have problem of water shortage. So rangers kindly decided to get in water resouce enginnering. They control water sources ( dirty under ground water and water mains). They are part water tanker lobby to purchase water and then loaded tanker move along and damage no tech roads and sell water to people and people are so helpless they are grateful for their robbery. That is no tech water resouce engineering. There is more money in that that lahori management person hiring firing white people in usa, E
ngland under name of right sizing.
I am not for high tech but for no tech, even retard can make such job. Hi Tech demands to much knowledge. ]

Well sir I hope this clears up any suspicion that you may be a fake - an educated Indian trying to impresonate a Paki or an educated Paki trying to impersonate an Indian. Maybe you can be less defensive to make him less suspicious.

While I have often suspected that you are a fake, sir, I have to say that you are genuinely good at being a fake.

How does is matter anyway - are we not all wearing masks on Chowk?

What matters is that your posts simulate the thought processes of the average Paki remarkably well.

My kudos to you, sir.

#208 by ahmedmadani

[What is wrong with medium or inferior brain with good coordination of brain and hands. He can deliver digging earth and covering it in time and on budget.]

mr. ahmedmadani sir,

As always you have hit the nail on the head.

Look at Behram-baba. While it is true that he has camel-dung in his meninges, this does not prevent him from doing ``real`` work like digging ditches and cleaning septic tanks. And he does it on time and budget, as the Mexican immigrants who subcontract the work to his company will vouch.

yes...it`s not surprising that retardo is an affirmative action ``engineer``...i.e. he wouldn`t get to mow a lawn without affirmative action..I`m sure the DBE would be interested in knowing that it`s got on it`s recommended listings, a retard who makes interesting comments on the internet...maybe someone will mail the TxDOT a copy of his posts...

heck..we already knew he was mentally disadvantaged...

Disadvantaged Business Enterprise (DBE) Program

The Disadvantaged Business Enterprise (DBE) Program was created to provide a level playing field for small minority- and women-owned companies wanting to do business with TxDOT and other agencies receiving federal funds from the U.S. Department of Transportation (USDOT). Businesses interested in becoming certified as a DBE must complete and submit an application through the Texas Unified Certification Program (TUCP) to the appropriate certifying agency in Texas. Upon approval, these companies can be used to meet the DBE goals established for federally-funded contracts. The DBE Program is a federal program required by law (49CFR Part 26).

dost mittar #193 Unfortunately for most of us, a good education does not require ``extensive knowledge`` only. :-)

hamidm: you wrote being on the consulting or sales side i have always held the techies in the lowest disregard

Great to know that you have this healthy respect for ``techies`` (``Lowest Disregard``, being a double negative sort-off, translates of course into ``Highest Regard``)!!

#217..
BEHRAMJI..
Use your head i had said ! and pakis hate history is another thing i said!
Both hold true for you!!

If you used your head you would NOT have quoted persians teaching the Romans!

The same Greco Romans (Macedonians) under Alexander, a mere 10,000 cavalry arrayed against the full might of the persians around 300,000...defeated and made history of the persians a la carthage!!
Persepolis was burnt to the ground!
And lo and behold we had Parsees ``flocking to meek and poor India``!!

Not that some parees remember that though!
Jayen

Re:bjkumar#231

[..No need to hit anybody with accusations of quota. If ``opportunities`` exist - one must exploit them....]

I agree with you in general. But Behram has been lashing out at hindus as squatting on rail tracks, code coolies and what not. He was even fighting on some other board that just because he owns his own company that does ``real`` engineering, he is superior to Indians who work in corporations for others.

Now it turns out that this loser is just a minority contractor who palms off the largesse of Texas voters who have created affirmative action programs, mainly for latinos and blacks. Even his net worth is a piddly amount compared to anyone who has lived for a few years in the US and has held a job, let alone an enterpreneur. So this is his real ``aukad``.

Re: # 234

Re: # 233

Ranjit,

Whenever we need to respond this Neuter, we shud remind him abt this (his status as a squatter/begger in Texas). :-))))))

Thanks buddy.

Re: # 233

Ranjit,

Whenever we need to respond this the Neuter, we shud remind him abt this. :-))))))

Thanks buddy.

Re:VRV #230

Check this out -

http://www.dot.state.tx.us/services/business_opportunity_programs/dbe_overview.htm

This link gives the entire overview of the Texas Disadvantaged Business Enterprise program. It lists the certification requirements. If you track it down, there is a pdf doc that shows the eligibility to enroll in this program. You have to certify that you are a disadvantaged minority and your net worth is less than $750K.

Since Behram operates under this affirmative action program, you can imagine his ``success`` after so many years in the US. Anyone working here owning a house surpasses that net worth figure in 5 years.

Re: # 231

BJ,

Effonjee raises on his neutered third-leg to denouce Indians all the time. Ranjit showed him his place. The place is antithetical to the blabber of Besharam.


Abt ur sanyaas:

BJ, Pl take back ur sanyaas . :-)

#229, #230 Yaaran

No need to hit anybody with accusations of quota. If ``opportunities`` exist - one must exploit them.

Truth be said, many Indians (except those who run shops and the like) have taken advantage of set-asides at countless local, state, and Federal levels. Perhaps their numbers far exceed those of Pakistanis - not because of any qualitative differences from the Pakistanis, mind you - but simply because the Indians` numbers exceed Pakisnanis`.

It`s the ``8A``, bay-tay!

Re: # 229

Ranjit,

U did a world of good service to all Chowkies by disrobing this Besharamjee Budddhonjee Effonjee.


This guy is a bloody condemned, useless skunk of skunks...Behram aka Besharam

Guys,

As I suspected, I found Behram`s company listed under the Disadvantaged Business Enterprise List in Texas -

http://www.dot.state.tx.us/insdtdot/geodist/aus/cserve/dbelst/dbelsaus.htm

That means that Behram is a minority contractor, who gets work set aside by the Texas state government on affirmative action basis. So the big talking bawaji, who claims to do real engineering, is basically an affirmative action person. Its not his merit but his brown skin color that he is using to get by in the world.

Next time he says anything about hindus, we should rub his face with this. He is no different from the scheduled caste quota guys in India, who use quotas to get ahead. If he had any real skills, he should compete head on with the goras, like we Indians do, not hide behind affirmative action.

Worst idea,

The author must be the ISI man. Letting pakistanis stay in india to complete a 5 year study program, well that will be best thing that jihadis ever dreamed upp. Already the bombay balst is the work of pakistanis who came in as tourists. There are hundreds of pakistanis who have vanished after the liberal visas were given during cricket match.

The ilks of stuka nd dost mitters have dome enough harm by talking about the so called cultural similarity, some kind of draem from the past. The pakistnais have moved forward. They have the latgest juyhadi education system where people from all over the workd are coming.

In kashmir indians have killed hijadis from more than 10 countries all finding their way through Pakistan.

Now education for the pakistanis. Only option for india is to build the fence and lock them in. There is hardly any country giving any visa to pakistanis, trade is on the decline. Pkaistan needs no modern education, it is all in the book, and that is what every islamic countries believe in.

Re: # 221

Romair:

You might be interested in what I worte in #226 and the following link http://www.ifi.uio.no/adminf/tribute.html .

Prof. O. J. Dahl passed away in 2002. His invention is driving the software industry. What a legacy.

Anil

Re: # 209

“I just wonder good software person is Technician or artist ?” - Ahmedmadani

Many computer scientists can say that this question may rank in the class with Newton’s “Why Apple fell from the ?”

In late 70s programming languages and in early 80s Artificial Intelligence were the hottest topics in computer science.

In programming languages the work was around adding higher levels of abstractions to write program in higher level programming languages as close to natural language as possible. A lot of this work started with study of Panini’s formal grammar, and structure of Sanskrit language.

In artificial intelligence, the debate and work centered on whether a machine can ever be made truly conscious (sentient)?

A book “Godel, Escher and Bach : An Eternal Golden Braid” You can buy it on Amazon.Com, if you are interested in finding an answer to your question.

This book connects meta-physics (Zen Buddhism) to mathematics, to graphics, to music to machine to find the answer if inanimate machines (like computers) can deliver animate (languages, and intelligence). This is not the easiest book to read, but you may enjoy discovering the answer to your question.

Godel, a mathematician, had proven that “sufficiently large systems that refer to themselves (as is the mathematics of the integers) will have true statements that cannot be so proven within the confines of the system.” One can expand the system, prove what couldn`t previously be proven, but the new system will suffer the existence of new, true but undemonstrable statements. Alan Turing (recognized as the inventor of computing machines), thinking about how one could decide if a computer program would either terminate, or suffer endless looping, derived the same conclusion from a computer science point of view. Godel hung around with Einstein a lot at Princeton.

Escher, a Dutch graphic artist who did visualization of Impossible objects.

Bach, creation of audio symphonies. Bach`s ``Canon per Tonos`` (a theme that changes notes according to a fixed system that somehow always returns to its starting note, one octave higher in pitch).

The work of both Escher and Bach has a great degree of similar intelligent processes that software developers also go through.

Why I know all this is?

Because, I was fortunate to work with a person named Prof. O. J. Dahl, when he visited Stanford’s computer science department from Norway. Prof. Dahl is credited to invent and implement a programming construct called “Class” in 1964. Now all software is done using “Class”. A colleague and I were given the charter to work with Prof. O. J. Dahl to design a programming language to write for software for GTE’s next generation telephone exchange systems. This was one of the best technical experience I had. We actually indeed designed “Class” into Pascal (Apple later developed similar language to write software for McIntosh). The “Class” is now built into Visual Basic and “C++” two programming languages most commonly used languages in software programming.

Later I had the opportunity to lead an artificial intelligence project at one of the two most successful startups of early 80s in silicon valley. The project was to build a software system for diagnosis of computer faults in computers and computer networks that must not be down for more than one (1) minute in 4 months due to any single failure in computer hardware.

These two projects gave the opportunities and ability to be an entrepreneur that I am forever thankful. The life’s journey has been great so far.

Re: # 222

Behram its ok to say computer science, we lots of political scientists also now days who are mostly involved in speculation.

Re: # 186
Sorry if you are IITian and happy to interact with graduate of IIT. Now I do not want to specualte as my friends but you are computer or other enng type.
Now do not make me lie `` when you ask me if I am not IItian?``. You know it and everything matters in real world. Simple thing like color complexion , Girls are really not accepting now a days otherwise fine boy from lohore but due to his dark color. So it does matter if one is from IIT or not.
Lahore college /nanagement is legend all around just like IIT and you can print your passport for big money.
My health is fine and dosage is only 5mg now in evening and 15 mg for general anxity and things look better, can be seen from my increased interaction. Winter is bad time for mental depression.
Now gentleman Tahmed got confused about my knowlege about some water thing. Again water resources are better done by no tech way. My knowledge is not knowledge but information. Here how no tech is better than Hifh Tech.
Now we have problem of water shortage. So rangers kindly decided to get in water resouce enginnering. They control water sources ( dirty under ground water and water mains). They are part water tanker lobby to purchase water and then loaded tanker move along and damage no tech roads and sell water to people and people are so helpless they are grateful for their robbery. That is no tech water resouce engineering. There is more money in that that lahori management person hiring firing white people in usa, E
ngland under name of right sizing.
I am not for high tech but for no tech, even retard can make such job. Hi Tech demands to much knowledge.
Hope to here from you about your specialization from IIT.
With best regards
Post Script : Law college of lahore is second best law school in Pakistan, except management Karachi is best in everything.

#ahmedmadani..
I hope all you said about family women wasnt personal experience!
Baba all my sympathies unto you!

alephnull...
Dont be so...Null !

I know what program writing is all about..though i am ``only a stupid engineer and a hack``...
An elegant program is a beautiful thing..precisely as swarrier has put it..

But before we open our mouths on somehing we might have seen, but NOT understood, think about the ``Bunder / adrak`` situation...else prople will be forced to say...
``Bunder kya jane!``
Jayen

Dear Romair:

{computer science is not an engg field} Another bogus way of marketing the computer field by calling it a science, which it is not.

{it is actually a liberal arts and sciences field} What is it then? You are developing a strange curriculum here. You go to classes such as advanced calculus, statistics, language and psychology, humanities, history, eh! What will this degree be called? Bachelor of Computer Science in Psychological Historical Mathematics (BSCSPHM).

{however a computer scientist needs a strong academic background} What does a strong academic background mean? Totally bogus assertion in your posts.

As usual your brain is suggesting something else, and you have posted something else. Can you validate for yourself what you were thinking?

Do you have a (BSCSPHM)? Now that is very impressive, is it not?

Respectfully submitted,

dost-mittar#..........i have a degree in computer sciences.........my other degree is in an aerospace engg. related field........and i have some technical diplomas, here and there..........ii have noticed something interesting in the IT field...........most of the pakistanis, with me, in IT do not seem to have degrees in cs......in fact hardly any do......primarily because cs was not an established academic field in pakistan for a long time...........and because, they find it difficult to get a degree in cs...........most of them are from electrical engg., industrial engg etc.......

..........i have seen so many people from other professions and fields of study enter IT........yet i have not seen many, if any, individuals with cs degrees try to get into other fields........perhaps because IT is such a hot field...........and is a great source of entreprenuership and wealth.........

..........computer science is not an engg field.........it is actually a liberal arts and sciences field........it is an outgrowth of mathematics and logic........people, however, tend to confuse computer scientists and computer programmers.........a computer programmer can have any kind of academic background............however a computer scientist needs a strong academic background..........

...........during the .com boom and bubble, a lot of people with business backgrounds and no techincal background got into the IT business............eventually the bubble burst, because these individuals, on the whole, were frauds........they didn`t, ``invent`` anything..........mbas were leading cs graduates..........now the field has gone back to true, ``hi-tech`` stuff..........a harvard mba with the best way to sell shoes online will not get funded.............however a scientist who comes up with the best search engine or the latest router will............

#218 by sadna on November 18, 2006 8:18pm PT

there you go again...introducing facts in a discussion with pakis...

don`t you know..the facts hate the pakis....reality itself is biased against pakis and the land of the pure..

#218 Sadna

Shandana - like most Pakistani ``writers`` here - is an opportunistic chicken! Case in point, she makes full use of this article to write elsewhere but lacks the guts to stick her own neck out over HERE!

Hey, it might get chopped off, after all!

At least she put in a pitch for this web site!

arjun2 #216
If Shandana Minhas had the good sense to quote Hafiz Hussain Saeed of the Lashkar e Taiba on what he says about Hindus or Tanvir Hussain ``Major Tanvir Hussain, the ``parliamentary secretary of defence`` who claims to belong to that organisation, I would take her seriously.

http://www.hindu.com/2006/11/16/stories/2006111604111600.htm
MP flaunts links with Lashkar

`Course, for that she would have to stop moralising and pick up the downmarket Urdu jihadi publications it publishes to get her inputs, not something any serious journalist should have to do.

Re: # 200 by jay1 on November 18, 2006 1:20pm PT

Dear jay1:

Of course if you had any brain you would not mention that {It TAKES brains to write code. Period.}

Brains are required for any thing one does. What is not required for these code coolies are engineering developed brains, and that is the reason you see all kinds of rejected people from other industries flocking into becoming a code coolie to make a quick buck. Making $20 per hour is better than being a home maker, eh!

{Remember one thing..winning the day by mudslinging will NOT get you ahead in the real world. } Why don`t you ask your hindoos to practice what you preach?

{Wars cannot be won with no infrastructure}

And you think that your Hindoo Land has infrastructure, huh! When will you get some indoor plumbing for your countrymen? And what about the millions of squatters in your country?

{yanks bombed Japan but not ``white`` Germany!} And while that was happening, unlike the subservient Hindoos, the muslims of India were kicking British @ss out of India.

{If learning from history is to practised ...(i know you pakis hate that part)..remember of what ROME did to CARTHAGE when faced with similar situation.

It Razed Carthage to the ground!! Made it History. }

And you have forgotten the might of the Persians, who taught Romans a thing or two much before Rome knew anything about the civilized world.

Respectfully submitted,

someone call the waaaahmbulance...

Osama the man-eating lion
Don’t shoot the messenger

By Shandana Minhas

In an article on the website www.chowk.com Q Isa Daudpota wrote that if India were to encourage students from Pakistan, and eventually all SAARC nations to enrol in colleges and universities, it would be a way to ``create goodwill and take diplomatic advantage of its academic prowess``. He pointed out that the scores of young South Asian who went to the US, USSR, UK and Germany to study after the second world war were the ``best ambassadors of goodwill on their return.`` As is standard on chowk.com, the responses to Mr Daudpota’s article were as interesting as the article itself. The usual suspects formed their malevolent conga line almost immediately ``As long as Pakistan is following a dual policy of sponsoring jihad against India while claiming to pursue peace, India should do no such thing.`` Why on earth would a Pakistani go to India for any reason, lest for education? ``I think ISI agents should be sent to India for better education after that they will do some constructive work and plan better raids.`` ``What are Indian arts? Bandar ka jaya adrak ka maza``- but most people seemed open to the essence of the proposal i.e. structured people to people contact. Of course if such a thing was allowed, there would be a record number of applicants for the University of Aishwariya Rai.

One interactor proposed a student exchange programme, like the junior year abroad in American and European Institutions, another something akin to the Fulbright programme under which Pakistani and Indian professors would go to each others faculties for a year. It was noted, also, that while people to people contact and cultural exchanges are the best way to diminish the impact of the ceaseless posturing favoured by leaders on both sides of the border, they probably weren’t going to be actively facilitated at an official level anytime soon. Sure there was rhetoric, but if wishes were horses beggars would ride. Three cheers for civic society and ‘once more into the breach’!

Considering most Pakistanis have never met an Indian or been to India or vice versa, the average Pakistani’s distrust of India seems a vicariously learned or inherited behaviour. That attitudes towards ‘others’ are imprinted on a genetic level was reinforced for me by the most unlikely of sources, a national geographic documentary on man eating lions. Narrating the persistence of fatal attacks on humans around one particular village in Tanzania, the documentary filmmakers hypothesised that the perception of humans as easy prey had been passed down from generation to generation in prides around that area. One solution was to eliminate that particular bloodline. We humans have something similar. It’s called war. The best example of learned behaviour explored in the documentary was when the narrator revealed the terrified people from the rural, poverty stricken African village where one lion killed and consumed up to 60 victims between 2002-2004 and they chose to call it Osama.

Perhaps a hundred years from now our descendants will be waving their flippers, rolling their third eyes (there are good reasons to rant and rave about environmental pollution) and making obscene gestures with their two fingered hands as they argue about whether Osama was a man eating lion or the millennium’s Frankenstein.

One man who does deserve to be thought of a hundred years from now as an example of our time is Sacha Baron Cohen, also known as Ali G. Ali G has long been a cult figure for young people; the inimitable style of scatological satire showcased on his Da Ali G show has won him fans from across the globe. He might be merciless, crude and offensive, but he’s very very good at it. In his latest movie, ``Borat: cultural learnings of America for make benefit glorious nation of Kazakhstan``, Cohen plays a fictional Kazakh journalist sent to America by his government to report on the superpowers way of life. ``If it not success``, Borat says of his film, ``I will be execute.``

Cohen’s creation, a homophobic, disco dancing, dog shooting Kazakh (Borat does not like Uzbeks and gypsies…saying he once ‘suffered a very bad gypsy attack’) has angered Kazakhs and women across the world. He cites ‘rape’ as a national pastime and, according to wikipedia, ``has been married several times, once to his half-sister’s plough. His first wife was Oksana Sagdiyev, another half-sister. She was shot and killed by neighbour Nursultan Tuyakbay, who mistook her for a bear, while accompanying her brother-in-law Bilo on a walk in the forest.

Borat was largely unaffected by this event and even celebrated it, as he was able to buy a new wife who he claimed was not boring. But what has really propelled him into the limelight in America is the ‘anti-Semitic’ nature of a lot of his jokes. The country western song he sang to an audience in Tucson, Arizona went ``Throw the Jew down the well/So my country can be free/You must grab him by his horns/Then we have a big party``. Christian evangelists caught on tape saying Jews will go to hell, Jewish anti-defamation leagues and others have been stridently vocal in their criticism of the Borat movie, and some have called for lawsuits against its creator.

Cohen, who is Jewish, responded by having Borat issue the following statement: ``I’d like to state I have no connection with Mr Cohen and fully support my government’s decision to sue this Jew.``

Borat the movie is doing roaring business at the American box office. An audience comprising primarily of ‘laddish’ young males are flocking to see it. Supporters of Cohen’s brand of satire point out that the portrayal of Kazakhastan is so ridiculous it is obvious the actual target is not Kazakhs but western audiences who are ignorant enough of the rest of the world to believe Borat’s version that it exists. Some Americans are beginning to understand that the joke is on them and so a certain disenchantment is creeping into the reviews. Are we really like that, they whine? Is that how the world sees us? In the words of America’s president ``We shouldn’t fear a world that is more interacted.`` (Washington, DC., June 27, 2006)

The targets of Borat’s take on perception and reality make him a favourite with young people in Muslim countries. When they applaud his rabid, ridiculous anti-Semitism, they do so because they see someone trying to balance a lopsided equation. In the English speaking world, anti-Semitism is a bad thing while anti-Muslim rhetoric is common and tolerated. It is not about buying into a conspiracy theory, it is about brutally exposing a double standard that is generally disguised under rhetorical finesse.

If it is wrong to mock people, let it be wrong to mock all people.



Shandana Minhas is a writer. Email: shandanaminhas@yahoo.com

Ref arjun2 #206

[Not to worry pakis....Osama and Al-Zawahiri will be recruiting in your ``educational institutions``(provided a hellfire doesn`t wipe out the class)....

International firms hog limelight at IIM-A summer placements

Ahmedabad, Nov. 18 (PTI): The summer internship recruitment process at the Indian Institute of Management (IIM-A) ended with as many as 110 students of the 2006-08 batch being recruited by international heavyweights like Lehman Brothers and Merril Lynch.]

In the meanwhile, some students from top US Business Schools choose to spend their summer internship at Infosys and Wipro in India on the basis that these companies are the ``sunrise`` industries.

And I am talking schools like Duke University`s Fuqua School of Business where about 5 students have opted to go to India. Not ethnic second-generation Indian-Americans but white Americans who could have chosen to intern at Coca-Cola or Procter & Gamble or even Citibank.

Ref ahmedmadani #168

[I read brahmins even dominate cricket, (( Kumble, dravid(how he can be brahmin when he is dravid?)]

Rahul Dravid`s forefathers migrated south and after a while returned to their homeland in Maharashtra which gave them their surname ``Dravid``.

There are quite a few of us brahmins who speak Dravidian languages as our mother tongue, having lived here for generations if not millennia. Sangilikkaruppan (who goes by the name Soysauce on Chowk) and his cohorts have to admit to their chagrin that some of the early Tamil poetry (by this I mean poetry going back at least to 7th century AD) has been authored by brahmins.... that fact is written up right alongside the poetry by early essayists who provided translations from literary Tamil to spoken Tamil.

[They even dominate nontraditional roles like army generals etc.]

That is because the top job in any profession requires strategic thinking and not hand-to-hand combat. We have a saying in Tamil that the foolish Mussalmans and the rowdy Gounders (a caste of Kannada immigrants to Tamil Nadu who of course name their children Love King or Tamil Jewel nowadays) are only good to be sepoys.

Ref dost-mittar #195

[A friend of mine had a Ph. D in Physics from Delhi University and was a lecturer in the Physics Deptt. there. He came to Canada on an assignment with the National Research Council and got interested in computers. He went back to Delhi and ended up as head of the newly started Computer Science Department in the seventies.]

He must have bribed some babu/politician to get the job.

Consider the fact that Hargobind Khorana was refused a Readership in Biochemistry at an Indian university on the basis that he did not have a BSc in Biochemistry (his BSc was in chemistry, forget the fact India did not have a BSc or MSc program in Biochemistry when Dr. Khorana was a student in India) despite having a PhD in Biochemistry. Dr. Khorana went on to earn a Nobel Prize later in life.

[People from diverse fields, such as Mathematics, Statistics, Economics and other areas ended up as cracker-jack porgrammers. I would be surprised if the same situation would be true today.]

In India, if you have a degree in Computer Science, Electrical Communications Engineering, Electrical Engineering or Mechanical Egineering, you will be considered for a job by Infosys and the like. They run you through a battery of aptitude tests, interviews, etc., to select the few thousands (just at Infosys) they need each year. With literally hundreds of thousands applying to an IT major such as Infosys, Wipro, EDS, IBM Global Services, etc., the HR departments filter you on the basis of educational background and grades before they call you in for the aptitude test. We don`t have a multitude of MickeyD`s in India otherwise our Physics graduates would be asking, ``Would you like fries with that?`` as would the bottom-of-the-barrel engineering graduates.

Last weekend, at the beach in Chennai there was a van slowly cruising back and forth along the promenade with a huge banner inviting people to apply to some British university, highlighting the fact that a foreign student is eligible for one year of employment after graduating from a British university. Australian, British and US universities are holding meetings in various big cities in India offering spot admissions to qualified students. Not to be outdone, New Zealand is advertising its universities too and Italy (there must be a Sonia connection here) is considering offering instruction in English for Indian students. And Pakistan, China`s best friend, is offering admission in one of its (WHO accredited) medical schools with English instruction to Indian students. While India offers good educational opportunities, well-heeled Indian students are able to go abroad for their studies to get a ``phoren`` degree.

Re: # 210

I don`t know if Aleph-null is speaking in jest, but I disagree with what he says and I disagree with Hamidm2 too (is that a repitition)?

I do agree computers scientists don`t have to be engineers. However there is a big difference between the code written by and expert programmer and and ordinary one. I have in the course of my career read both and reading code written by an good programmer is like listening to great music. There are as Mozart said exactly the right number of notes not too many not too less.

I could say the same about electronics design too. When I got out of college I was using an Apple IIe board to design a simulation system for a chemical plant. Going through the circuitry I found some chips used in a very strange fashion but so beautifully that I was amazed. It was an economy of design that was lovely, Wozniak could write a sonnet with a circuit.

More later if necessary.....

Re: # 208 Mad-ani

Man - you are hen-pecked beyond redemption...:) it has nothing to do with your intelligence or lack there of.... you are just too mellow a person, you are too sissy to establish order and take control of your personal life.... you allow other people to boss you around because you are to afraid to take charge....

dost-mittar #207

{{Do computer scientists have to be engineers (and I don`t mean the cisco/ms certified kind)?}}

D-m ji, please allow me to kibitz. Computer ‘scientists’ don’t need to be engineers or to have any background or training in a rigorous discipline at all. Commuter ‘science’ is a trivial and bogus field – it has no intellectual depth or substance whatsoever. It is a clerical field suited only for glorified ‘high-tech’ clerks – yesterday’s penpushers become today’s keyboarders. It is a haven and refuge for tenth-rate minds, manque talents, those who couldn’t make it in truly rigorous and demanding disciplines like management and marketing, let alone electrical engineering. Sorry to be brutal, but this needs to be said …

ahmed madani #209

{{Intelligent ways lead to much easier way to right answers and generally its easier. … I wonder by looking at general code one can make sense of capacities and nature of Code writer as any creation involves artist and technician. Or many good looking artistic codes have hidden mines? …After all any art appears so easy and beautiful but is so difficult, is it same with code writes aka coolies ? I wonder we should have prizes for code writers or just treat all work as coolie work.}}

I gather that you are asking, among other things, whether the analogue of ‘mathematical beauty’ - i.e. compact elegance, symmetry, exploitation of pattern and regularity, ingeniously simple and effective argument - is found in the code coolie profession. The answer is an unambiguous no – there is no such thing as formal elegance or beauty in computer programming or computer ‘science’. As a corollary, there are no aesthetic criteria to judge one code coolie’s output as superior in any way. All code looks and behaves pretty much the same; one coolie’s work is practically indistinguishable from another’s. Consequently code coolies can be treated as fungible commodities on the labour market or interchangeable cogs in a machine … As to technique, I suppose this profession needs a minimum of manual dexterity and hand-eye coordination in working a keyboard, mouse and screen. Beyond that there is no art in constructing computer programs, and no aesthetic delight to be had in contemplating them. … But if you want to award prizes for code coolies, you could do it based on productivity – the coolie who churns two thousand lines of code a day is obviously twenty times as productive as the one who ekes out one hundred.

Re: # 202

I just wonder good software person is Technician or artist ?
In music my observation is you can not really attain anything unless you are better in both.. There are people who understand music very well but just understanding is not sufficient for most you need artist in also to attain height. While some appear as great technicians and appear great but after listening and later contemplating it appears they are great artists also. ( Example is Stranvinsky, initially appears technician but as you start listening to his different compositions.) The same thing appears for some great impressionist painters.

It is my impression the things which look good are reasonable and good. In simultaneous equations where equations appear reasonable are also related to reasonable physical problems. Does software codes appears very crude or no artistic when situations they are trying to represent are very hard?
Little example A=2 B=1000 the related equation appears very ill conditioned. say two equations 2A+3B=3002, second A+B=1001, the matrix equation appears horrible, a ill conditioned equation, but say A=2 and B=3 the all related matrices appear nice looking.

Now ill condition equations are solved by different ways some are real crude and ``Pehalvan`` style and many times these methods leads to wrong of answers( more repetition leads to more grave answers). Intelligent ways lead to much easier way to right answers and generally its easier.

I wonder by looking at general code one can make sense of capacities and nature of Code writer as any creation involves artist and technician. Or many good looking artistic codes have hidden mines? It boils down to analog and binary number computers. Analog is appealing and artistic but binary 0 and 1 appears no good but is efficient easy to crunch numbers. Just look at reverse polish notation for crunching numbers appears strange as its not our writing way but how efficient it works.
After all any art appears so easy and beautiful but is so difficult , is it same with code writes aka coolies ? I wonder we should have prizes for code writers or just treat all work as coolie work. Coolies carry such heavy load on neck I feel shame to ask them to lift such thing and make him workhorse. I think it is important to see how ordinary work is one extra ordinarily way by code writes.
Let us hope Lahore born and bred and MBA cooliecode masters ( cowmasters who are masters of cowboys, they are mean whip cowboys they say) treat coodcoolies from south and east kindly.

Re: # 194

I do not understand why so much importance to intellience?
Intelligent people think lot and develop intelluctual impotency and afraid of their wife, even some higly educated men are hit by wife and he can tell world and expose her. Less brained will never tolerate such humilation and will show who is boss. Also too much thinking can make you sad and feel depressed. Also they are too smart for themselves. Even daughters do whatever they want and if you complain wife ask to shut up as ``you have no brains`` to understand normal things. Intelligent women normally do not marry but men are stupid visually simulated people and not smart in really and punished for whole life working for ungrateful daughters. I wished we all have no brains but strong hands. Ignorance is bliss as truth given by old wise people.
What is wrong with medium or inferior brain with good coordination of brain and hands. He can deliver digging earth and covering it in time and on budget.

hamidm2:

Do computer scientists have to be engineers (and I don`t mean the cisco/ms certified kind)? If so, is this something recent? I am asking this because my friend who headed the computer science deptt. at Delhi University was trained as a physicist and not as engineer.

Not to worry pakis....Osama and Al-Zawahiri will be recruiting in your ``educational institutions``(provided a hellfire doesn`t wipe out the class)....

International firms hog limelight at IIM-A summer placements

Ahmedabad, Nov. 18 (PTI): The summer internship recruitment process at the Indian Institute of Management (IIM-A) ended with as many as 110 students of the 2006-08 batch being recruited by international heavyweights like Lehman Brothers and Merril Lynch.

Of the total 246 students in the batch, a large percentage of students will go to international locations like New York, Boston, London, Paris, Singapore, Tokyo and others for their summer internships, officials said.

Apart from 110 students being recruited by international companies, there has also been a substantial elevation in the roles being offered at entry level. For instance, Deutsche Bank, Lehman Brothers and Barclays Capital recruited students for Associate positions.

During the summer placement process which was held between November 11-16, students largely opted for finance (139 students), consultancy (40) and marketing (35) sectors, officials added.

Topping the list of recruiters were Lehman Brothers with 17 students, Merill Lynch with 10, JP Morgan and Barclays with 11 each and Citigroup with nine.

Re: # 180
It’s surprising to hear from a modern Indian that Brahmins are superior to others. It’s more like defending monarchy in a world where people believe in democracy, freedom and equality. The term ‘equality’ means that people should have equal rights and equal opportunities. No one should be judged on the basis of his caste or ancestry, the only criteria should be merit. You said “I am not saying that all Brahmins were scholars but all scholars were Brahmins”. I wonder whether Aristotle, Plato, Russell, Hawkings and Einstein were Brahmins too?

Then you said “Most Pakistanis are converts from Brahmins that’s why Pakistan is different from Afghanistan”. Afghanis are as good as Pakistanis and Indians. Their current state of affairs in not their own fault. It just happened that a thought crossed the mind of an evil despot i.e. Brezhnev, and Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan in 1979. It is flabbergasting to see how much damage a whim of an individual can do to millions of people for generations.

Re: # 203

Hamidm sahib:

Such institutes are like the third eye of Shiva, when opened it can destroy everything in site. A lot depends on individuals, what mind is trained is so critical.

Anil

Re: # 201

anil,

......... but ted was a pretty smart cookie - it took them years to find him ........... if he didn`t have this fascination with blowing up things he could have ended up as the ceo of enron or the secretary of defense !

Re: # 200

Re: # 200

jay,

........... you are one paranoid hindoo ! ....... i was not talking about indian code coolies in particular, i was mainly talking about the kind of people who are ``in computers`` in the us ....... and i know these people really really well because i have worked with the some of the biggest companies in this business ...... being on the consulting or sales side i have always held the techies in the lowest disregard ....... an evil necessary for making my bonus and commission ............. look, it is a fact that most computer `professionals` have become a commodity and wage arbitrage is the name of the game ......... but i am not belittling this profession - it does offer a much better future than a suicide bomber - but it is not something i would like my kids to do ..............

Re: # 194

Hamidm Sahib:

Ted Kaczynski also come came from there too. True?

Anil

#198..
I know it gives paki critics of indian IT kicks to ``feel superior`` by thinking along the lines of hamidm2..
it is the equivalent of saying..``oh ! we cant write or think of writing good code, well these programmers are all stupid hacks anyway..!`` and so on.

Let me assure you, the real situation is quite to the contrary.
(just lift your heads out of the sand).

It TAKES brains to write code. Period.

The ``stupid housewife who balanced budgets and now handles millions``...may be brighter than you guys who just make fun of ``hacks``, and indulge in ``emotional noise making`` instead of being on ``solid unemotional ground`` as some people here indeed are.

Remember one thing..winning the day by mudslinging will NOT get you ahead in the real world.

Rather it will lull into complacency, and THAT will lead you to ultimate downfall.

The whole islamic world nowadays is full of crappy guys like you.
They talk of jihad and taking on the americans, shout ``allhu akbar`` when firing an american manufactured stringer at american manufactured stuff, but barely pause to THINK!

Dearies...even the ammo you use is american!
Wars cannot be won with no infrastructure and nothing except ``allaho akbar`` on the lips.
The yanks will pulverise the shit out of you before you know what hit you, if push comes to shove. (to quote mushy`s words that is)..

If it comes to real battle of survival (the direction where jihad si pushing the world)...the whole middle east ..the source of jihad could be vaporised in the twinkling of an eye!

remember that..and there is precedent..(yanks bombed Japan but not ``white`` Germany!)
THINK about that.

If learning from history is to practised ...(i know you pakis hate that part)..remember of what ROME did to CARTHAGE when faced with similar situation.

It Razed Carthage to the ground!! Made it History.

Use your heads.
Jayen

Re: # 179

Ranjit and Krishna:

Krishna you are moving this discussion into personal subjectivity. I suggest that you develop a criteria to evaluate faculty members, and compare that would be an objective way. Ranjit mentions about the lack of funds as one problem.

The faculties lacks exposure, have little contact with real world, lack of funds. There are too many controls and interference from the government. If my alma mater, Harvard Business School can have centers in Silicon Valley, China and soon in India, then why not IITs and IIMs. After all great majority if IIT graduates are in service and knowledge industry. Such centers can provide exposure and can even generate funds for the faculty, and B.Tech, M.Tech projects for students, and real subjects for research.

Anil

Re: # 195

dost-mittar,

...... then be prepared to be surprised !..........

............... most of the people in `computers` (specially programmers, network `engineers` and database admins are not computer science majors ...... they are a mixed bunch : engineers (specially the imported code coolies), music majors who can`t hold a tune (ross perot used to say they make the best programmers), school teachers who were finred by the principal, secretaries who learned microsoft office and access, cable guys who quit their $20 an hour jobs and became `cisco certified` network `engineers`, high school fliunkies who got `microsoft certified`, the starbuck`s coffee guy with a metal stud in his nose who took java classes over the net at the university of phoenix and became a j2ee stud, housewives who became pmi certified while managing their household budget and are now managing multi-million dollar projects, homeless people who became itil certified during the winter when they had to come indoors, criminals out on parole and so on ................. it is a motley bunch and maybe less than one in a hundred is a bonfide computer science major who really understands the how things actually work - the rest are a bunch of hacks who know their little piece of hardware or software ........

The idea is good but I doubt of any greater benefit than a cultural exchange. The centres of real `learning` and those that bring out the best talents through sheer commitment and dedication of the faculty are nowhere but in Europe and USA/Canada. The real task is to learn the `soft` sciences and not the mechanical ones like tech which is easily acquired.

I just spent two weeks amongst some of the top US economists and investment bankers at a forum hosted by a multi-lateral IFI, and was surprised when a double PHD american professor of Yale told me the person he had been the most impressed with, and he said it quote unequiviocally, was no other than a Pakistani named Ali Khan who, in his opinion, was the best mathematician Yale had produced in a long time. Professor Ali Khan, a Mathematical Economist, currently teaches at Johns Hopkins.

According to him, Pakistanis have a brown-skin syndrome, but at the same time they are some of the brightest guys around. I agree with that.

#195,
yes! I qualified as an electrical engineer, (all the while cursing my luck that i couldnt make it into electronics)...
Entered the industry as an electromcis service engineer (and earned pittance)...
rose to be a Sr.manager Electronics in a prestigious plant on the indian west coast, ...
Wrote a data acquisition and control program (import substitution) that controlled the thickness of the film being produced by the company i worked for..
And after encountering saturation, (aided a bit by luck)...became a software consultant in Singapore!
Have been programming (my love)..since 1998!

Qualification has nothing to do with what you end up doing in life.
THAT is patthar ki lakeer true!
Jayen

shishapa#192:

Computer Science is a relatively new field of study. When I was studying at Madison, Wisconsin, during late sixties, computer courses, such as Fortran IV, were offered by Mathematics department only. A friend of mine had a Ph. D in Physics from Delhi University and was a lecturer in the Physics Deptt. there. He came to Canada on an assignment with the National Research Council and got interested in computers. He went back to Delhi and ended up as head of the newly started Computer Science Department in the seventies. People from diverse fields, such as Mathematics, Statistics, Economics and other areas ended up as cracker-jack porgrammers. I would be surprised if the same situation would be true today.

looking for geniuses living under a bridge

the field marshall is clueless as ever, drawing conclusions about the it industry, business, education, global wariming and gay sex based on his travels and travails .......... fool !

.......... tha simple fact of the matter is that people who get admitted to ivy league schools are more intelligent, harder working and better looking than the average joe (bill gates is an exception in the looks department) .......... they will do well at whatever they do regardless of the where they go to school or whether they graduate or not ............ so if i was running a business and wanted to maximize my chances of recruiting the best i would go to a top-10 school instead of playing dice with graduates of the local community college or hiring homeless people living under a bridge ...................

........

tahmed32#188:

He is highly educated because he has awesome knowledge about many subjects, ranging from politics to history to water-management and, above all, Indian classical music. In fact, it was his deep love and knowledge of Indian classical music, which is unusual even for Indian, let alone, Pakistani Punjabis, which raised serious doubts in my mind about his authenticity. I think he has deliberately chosen to write in poor grammar to fit in with his assumed image of an ordinary Pakistani.

Re: # 190

I think what you say is true in computer science where it is more of a logic.
But not in hardcore engineering.
You will not be seeing someone who has done bachelors degree in anthropology
doing masters or doctoral studies in Civil Engineering or ElectroMagnetics.
You will see such cases in Computer Science, one has done say botany or
liberal arts and moved into computers and become savvy with experience
and hard work.

Re: # 184
i had figured that long ago about madani sahib, of course there are many others as well like naqshbandi he pretends he lives in uk, maybe it`s the business model of this site`s owners, to have many interactors obviously quite a few are fictious.

Does the university one attends, really make a difference:

..........one of the guys i worked for in silicon valley was the most technically qualified IT person i have every come across........he is the only guy i have met who could discuss all layers of the osi stack with equal competency..........networking, application software (and hardware), you name it, he knew it technically........he had two degrees from berekeley (bs and mba) and two ms degrees from stanford......he was on the berkeley faculty......prior to which he was completing his ph.d. at stanford in cs, and then quit.............i asked him why he quit.......his answer was quite odd.......

..........he told me that, in his opinion, universities, and college education, in general, didn`t really make much of a difference........he said he was no better at his profession after having gone through such rigorous training........strange coming from such an academician......

........i then worked for a startup, where we basically had so much funding that we could hire anyone we wanted..........in my team alone, we had twenty people, with a combined twenty-one ms degrees......including an indian IIT grad with 4 masters degrees! yes four!......an mba, an ms in engineering from india, and one from usa and an ms in cs.......our dba had a ph.d from harvard....our principal engineer had a ph.d from princeton......i had two direct peers.........one had an ms from mit..........the other had a bs from mit, an ms from stanford, and was part of some strange medical program at univ. of illiinois, where they trained techies to become doctors.......

...........however the interesting part is that the technical head of this whole team only had a high school diploma..........most of the people in my team had equal or higher qualifications than me, yet i was there boss..........and my own boss had a bs from some unknown college!..........the only guy that ever got fired from this company, until it got bought was the most brilliant one academically - the one in the joint medical program...........

..........after going through this excercise, i also realized that university degrees only take you so far.........other than in research, they just open a door, and provide networking chances...........after that, it is really who one is.........one`s personality.......one`s effort.......and one`s control over one`s emotions (emotional quotient as opposed to intelligence quotient).............

..........later on, i also ended up working for an indian guy, who had only a community college two year degree and had gone onto become a serial entrepreneur and a multi-multi millionaire at a very young age............every single one of his employees was significantly more qualified than him...........

..........so while going to iit and mit may be good, its nothing great or out of the ordinary...........i have worked with and hired quite a few and worked for some also...........i would rate the university one attended, as factor five or six on pre-requisites for success:

- effort/initiative/ambition
- common sense
- personality/people skills/emotional control
- area of expertise/study
- luck
- university one attended

#187 by dost-mittar

[Would a Pakistani spell Al-Jazeera as Al-Jajira?]

He would, if his command of the English language was like the average Pakistani.

#187 that makes what you say plausible, and removes it from the real of a conspiracy theory.

but why would you call such an individual a ``highly educated`` indian? wouldnt a truly educated man know that he isnt accomplishing anything with such pretense? at best, he is only a slightly smarter version of lowlife like jay and arjun and krishna who are clearly doomed to live their lives choking on their own spite and complexes.

tahmed32#185:

Would a Pakistani spell Al-Jazeera as Al-Jajira?

#172 by ahmedmadani

[I am sure who claimed to be IITian may not be IITian, just like who claim from Lahore managemet college. One need to prove, people just dream. ]

dear mr. ahmedmadani sir,

What if I`m not an IITan. That does not change anything in Pakiland, does it?

And sir, are you saying that Lahore Management College is comparable to the IIMs/IITs? Where did you get this piece of information?

How`s your depression problem been lately? Did you feed the goats today?

Don`t feel bad, sir. One day the world will surely recognize the superiority of Pakiland. And Islam. Don`t worry.

:-)

dost mittar: So you are a conspiracy theorist too!!

ahmadmadani#168:

Madani saheb (or whatever your real name is!)

You are a true genius!

You have convinced us all that you are an undeducated Pakistani. I always had a strong suspicion that you are, in fact, a highly-educated Indian. Now, I suspect that you are a brahmin, too!

You are nobody`s fool but you have fooled us all! Keep going!

#180 by ranjit on November 18, 2006 4:05am PT


There is a saying in Sanskrit - ``Vidvan Sarvasya Pujyate``


There`s a saying in Chinese: ``Paki jihadi..paki go boom boom``....

#168
Ahmedmadani..
This is what makes chowk so hilarious!
madaniji..
Mai to pakka ``Bamman`` hoon!
My surname ``Upadhyay`` means ``officiating priest`` during yadnyas ..fire sacrifices!
I eat all sort of non-veg and veg stuff (excluding beef).
I am NOT a ``karmakandi`` (ritualistic) brahmin, but i take pride in my brahmin heritage.
Chanakya whom most pakis admire for his ``neeti`` (astute statecraft) and hate (brahmin jo thehera!) ..was a brahmin too!
He produced chandra gupta maurya..who vanquished ``Dhanannd`` the last ``vratya`` king of magadh. (these vratyas were like pakis ..intoxicated with the strength of their vigor, but who looked down on virtuous things and pursuers of knowledge the brahmins!

One brahmin brought about the downfall of Nanda!

No wonder pakilanders hate brahmins. (varna sara hindustan kaise banega pakistan?)

The same chandra gupta humbled aleaxnder`s regional bully selucus Nicator in straight battle.

(No wonder all paki selecuses have met similar fate in battle too).

Again we have Parashuram the brahmin warrior famed to have destroyed bullying kings single handedly in mortal combat!

Not to forget the powerful [but partial remember ekalavya`s thumb?] Dronaacharya who was guru to Arjuna the mahabharatan archer.

The last powerful known brahmin was Shankaracharya of Kaladi in kerela who led the resurgence of hinduism by defeating his famous buddhist opponent ``Mandan-mishra`` NOT in battle, but in a duel of the minds!

People respected brahmins not because of caste, as pakis consider.
But because they were normally ..
1 - knowledgeable
2 - chode to stay poor
3 - were by nature gentle and sober.
4 - chiefly they were more of an asset rather than a COMPETITION to the village asstes.

I simply cannot understand the pathiological brahmin hate in pakiland where there is NOT a single brahmin living?

Vicarous hate? can there be such a thing?

If all pakis became ``like brahmins`` ..something one must rather do than loot buses, and bomb people...even the mighty USA would shudder to think of doing anything against them!

The Israelis are ``virtual brahmins``...if you can see what i mean.

If you cant beat them ..join them...baba!
Jayen

Dear Daudpota
Firstly we need to break the decades old conflicts in which our Politician has been playing their Politic with their patriotic speech to the Middle Class and Vast Uneducated population.
We need to build cross Border Trade, Export/import SAFTA, Exchange students, Cross Culture/border Career development training, Educational/Sport competition, india is all about Bollywood Right.

Don`t you love to watch the cricket match of Karachi Dolphins with Mumbai bulls in Mumbai Stadium eating your Spicy Dusa and Limca Or watching Omar Sharef live show in Karachi Theater.

Going with Collage/university Buddies for a Train trip to India/ Pakistan and make your own Travel Reality Show.

The Main Problem is long as Indian stay in Pakistan, ISI consider Him/Her as the agent of RA or vice versa, When Pakistani come to India RA consider Him/Her as the agent of ISI or any others Laskar. In this situation who would take a risk of Travel?
Luckily been in Karachi; Mumbai and Delhi; Lahore accepts religions did not find major changes, I found chandi chowk,Somosa walla, Riksha(three wheeler). and the same www.chowk.com

Bon Voyage ! Let us know Dil aur Delhi ka Haal later
Ahad

Re:ahmedmadani#168

[..There is dominence of brahmins in India, quotas will not work. ...This advantage can be taken out by law. Or govt of India can expell them as exploiter of masses...]

Mr. Madani, I respect you for your interest in classical music. But on this issue, you are completely wrong. There is a saying in Sanskrit - ``Vidvan Sarvasya Pujyate`` - which means that a scholar is respected everywhere in the world. This is true in every society that has any interest in intellectual matters. People admire and respect smart people, it is a human instinct.

Indian society has always given the highest respect to knowledge which has been monopolized in the past by brahmins. Even the kings including muslim rulers would by and large respect brahmins. In ancient India, scholars from China (Hsien Tsang) or scholars from middle-east (Al-beruni) would go to India and spend time with the Brahmins to understand the scriptures and philosophy. I am not saying that all Brahmins were scholars, but all scholars were brahmins.

Even Pakistanis, in spite of all their external jealousy, know in their hearts that the Brahmins are smart and a formidable people. I would suspect that since 99% Pakistanis are converts, there are millions of brahmins who converted to Islam in Pakistan, which is probably why Pakistan is different from Afghanistan and is able to be competitive with India.

Re:anil#174

[..The conclusion that I had mentioned here, that IITs are magnets of talent, and it is the student body that makes them a place to be, despite the quality of the faculty....]

Anil, this is an incorrect conclusion. In my experience, the faculty at IIT Delhi was as good as any that I have seen in good schools in the US. In any society, including the US, the top brains do not necessarily go to academia. They want to pursue challenges in research labs or go to industry to make money. There are vast numbers of average Ph.Ds produced in US universities who become faculty somewhere.

I still remember for instance Prof. Kiran Seth at IIT Delhi who teaches Operations Research. He used to work at Bell Labs in US and then returned to teach at IIT Delhi. What an awesome guy!! By the way, he started the SPICMACAY program which has spread all over India to promote classical music.

What is missing in IITs are the dollars on the scale that you see in top US universities, for research purposes. That is to be expected, since we are still a poor country. Even then, I know that IIT Delhi is involved in major industry collaborations in the past few years.

Re: # 176
not withstanding some chowkies view on uk it seems according to OECD survey britain has one of the best education systems.

Re:behram1#125

[...Heck, I have never been impressed with any Hindoo Land educated engineer in my entire life.....]

It is funny to see Do Takay ke Pakistanis get so jealous about Indian accomplishments. You can live in your delusional world of Indian hatred. Here is what happens in the real world - we were recently recruiting a high level IT executive in my company, a large fortune 500 organization. The CIO got several resumes and noticed that there was a resume from someone from IIT Delhi. Since he knew that I had done my undergrad from IIT Delhi, he calls me up and asks me to speak to him and bring him in for an interview right away. This is over all the other gora resumes of people who had spent 20 years in IBM and so forth. There were zero resumes of Pakistanis, they are not even players at that level. And yes, that guy got hired too.

So you can go ahead with your one person company that probably gets work set aside for minority contractors due to affirmative action. We Indians are on a roll and you can only watch from the sidelines and curse.

#174 by anil

[In early 90s, the director of IIT Bombay joined the board of my company in India. We had many discussions, both of us explored possibilities to initiate industry collaboration. The operation that I had set was India`s largest and most automated electronic manufacturing unit. By mid 90s, it became India`s largest exporter of computer products and accounted for 50% of all hardware exports from India. ]

What`s the name of your company?

[I have personally interacted with faculty member in late 1980s from IIT Delhi`s mechanical engineering department, and can assure you the incentive and quality was missing. ]

Like who? Name two who you think compare with professors in B-grade US universities.

Re: # 169

Krishna:

In early 90s, the director of IIT Bombay joined the board of my company in India. We had many discussions, both of us explored possibilities to initiate industry collaboration. The operation that I had set was India`s largest and most automated electronic manufacturing unit. By mid 90s, it became India`s largest exporter of computer products and accounted for 50% of all hardware exports from India. We both concluded the gap was their to bring meaningful collaboration to address practical problems.

The compensation in academia when compared to the industry is nothing to talk about. It does not provide incentives to attract talent. The best brains continue to first leave for the U.S., and then to the Indian industry. Even those who return from the U.S., and want to contribute face difficulties. Unlike the U.S. there is no Industrial support through the contracts to augment income for the faculty, or receive royalty, or entreprenuership that you see in the U.S.

About three or four years ago IIT-Delhi gave one of the two life time achievement awards to one of my close friend for last 35 years. He and some of the Indian VCs tried to initiate centers for on the campus and off-campus. Very little came out. Most of them ended up giving money to set up centers in their own names. In fact my friend ended up abandoning the project to set up high end cluster computing project,, for which the funding, continuing work was guaranteed. Among many hurdles was faculties experience and exposure to handle projects.

I have personally interacted with faculty member in late 1980s from IIT Delhi`s mechanical engineering department, and can assure you the incentive and quality was missing.

The conclusion that I had mentioned here, that IITs are magnets of talent, and it is the student body that makes them a place to be, despite the quality of the faculty is shared by my friend who received one of the two life-time achievement awards, and others who took initiative to do something about it.

Anil

Re: # 172

Please note ``paki`` is derogatory term and please refrain from useing. It has origin in british nazi brains and Arjun ``popularised`` it.. But bradford ``paki`s have taught britisher lesson making it ungovernable,No justice no peace for England.

Re: # 170
I am sure who claimed to be IITian may not be IITian, just like who claim from Lahore managemet college. One need to prove, people just dream.

Re: # 110


I am not sending any such people. I am just little tired of ``IIT`` thing. We do not go on talking about lahore`s management college. Kindly refer to my response in #168.
Have good day and regards

#168 by ahmedmadani

[This advantage can be taken out by law. Or govt of India can expell them as exploiter of masses. This has advantage as 97% other indians canot blame them if they are not there as well as brahmins do not have to carry burdens of hate. They can migrate to west where they can not be classified as brahmins and if they want to classify themselves and advance in west they can be like jews. Its win win situation. And may be advantage West and advantage Indians for having no burden of brahmins.
Just random thought.]


Mr. ahmedmadani sir,

That was very satisfying. Thanks..

By the way, what % of Pakis think like you? Or are as well-informed as you? Do you have a guess?

#167 by anil

[I do know what I wrote. ]

Okay. Which IIT faculty/ies are you comparing to which B-grade USA school faculty/ies?

Let`s see you put your money where your mouth is.

Re: # 136

Mr.Jay... You have good point. A society which respects knowledge advances nonlinearly. Knowledge is far powerful than ``practical`` pehalvans. Sir Issac Newton was alive when India was ruled by Last great Mughal Aurangzeb and Turkish empire are strong. Sir Issac Newtons contributions surpass all achivements of both empires including his own english King. We all will never achieve that intelluctual capacity but atleast we as mortal can look at these bright stars and see there travel and inspire to do mental work. jews always respected scholarship , they are not known as only practical. It requires tradition to think free and let awake your intelluct and allow to fly it as a eagle in scholarship. There is no guidence, no reference point, no holy books and mind free to think and then scholars come with depth of enlightenment to help us mortals. But it is great intelluctual work that has contributed exponentially than linear hard workers. Three great jewish thinkers Newton ( changed understanding of mechanics of motion), Karl Marx ( Lucid explanation of nature of means of production and social system ), Sigmond freud ( looking at sexual nature of humans), they changed understanding of world. I do not know details about Indian brahmins. They may be better as bunch as they are uniformly hated and that tells me they are better than average indians. In europe Gypsies were never hated like Jews, Jews were hated as average european knew at heart they are better. India has about 3 to 4 % (?) and they are not having many children so they are demographically insignificant and reducing fast. There is dominence of brahmins in India, quotas will not work. It appears they are quite resilient and despite of number they dominant. They even dominate nontraditional roles like army generals etc. In open competition they are devastating. I read brahmins even dominate cricket, (( Kumble, dravid(how he can be brahmin when he is dravid?) Tendulkar,aagarkor, Ganguly( Christian brahmin?),)). Only way to reduce influence is to ban them from education , knowledge is their weapon, they have no land or much wealth sources( trade). As know knowledge is becoming main thing of modern tech they will dominate. They have advantage of tradition as its not that different to look at mathematuical analysis or computer logic than thier logical knowledge of religion.) This advantage can be taken out by law. Or govt of India can expell them as exploiter of masses. This has advantage as 97% other indians canot blame them if they are not there as well as brahmins do not have to carry burdens of hate. They can migrate to west where they can not be classified as brahmins and if they want to classify themselves and advance in west they can be like jews. Its win win situation. And may be advantage West and advantage Indians for having no burden of brahmins.
Just random thought.

Re: # 163

Krishna:

I do know what I wrote.

Anil

Re: # 165

10% is 100 million people - that`s population of australia, new zealand, singapore combined and then some... that`s a lot. you don`t need no paki ``talent``... if you really are short of talent - get africans, vietnamese, lankans, nepalese, indonesians or whoever else... but no pakis..... believe me, they are more trouble than it`s worth...

Learn the lessons fellas.... I really amazed how easily indians fall for this ``bhai bhai`` crap, again again... each time with even greater disaster...

Any case - pakis are not exactly beating down our doors... so what the f*** is this all about?...

This is a great idea. There is a serious talent crunch in India.. A huge chunk of elite muslims went to pakistan. So it makes sense to attract talent to India .. to study.. and then to settle down. This is what competitive economies are doing. Contrary to notions India is not a bottomless pool of talent.. its very much limited to a small (10%) segment of the population, if not less.

Bottom line: The IITs have produced a billionaires and CEOs and founders of companies while there are ZERO paki billionaires and ZERO paki companies that can compare to anyone of India`s mid-tier companies..

The paki IITs(Institutes of Islamic Terrorism), OTOH, have produced a lot of illustrious graduates...we have no american going to Indian IITs....OTOH, we all know of jihad johnny walker-lindh who went to paki IITs...

come to think of it...what the Indian IITs are to the civilized world, the paki IITs are to the islamic terrorism world...

#158 by anil

[The faculty is just as good as any B grade univesity in the U.S. ]

Don`t talk about stuff you know nothing about.

And you don`t have to sign your name below every post. It automatically appears at the top.

#124 by Naqshbandi

[the bottom line is that indian unis, even the top ones simply cannot match the western universities for facilities and nor usually for the quality of staff and definitely not for original research.]

Quality of staff - are you familiar with the staff in the IITs and IIMs? The IIT professors I have come across are better than their American counterparts by MILES.

Don`t talk about things you know NOTHING about. Stick to Alla-ho-akhhhbar-type issues.

Everyone knows that research-wise, Indian universities are far behind. But they are catching up. Are you familiar with the kinds of research going on in Indian universities? I would doubt it very highly.



[and university life, certainly in the British (and Western) perspective is NOT all about getting top grades--it is also about developing character and broadening your mind and horizons. What you do outside the lecture theatre being as important, if not more so, than what grades you finally get.]

In School admissions in America today, especially in California, there is this thing called reverse-affirmative action. Because whites lose out to Asians on merit, the admissions procedure has undergone a huge overhaul. In all race-based debates for admissions in the past, the whites used to bring out ``merit`` as the trump card. More whites get admitted? Well that`s because they competed ON MERIT! But Asian Americans changed all that. If admissions is kept strictly merit-based, very few whites would get in. Therefore no longer is admission merit-based. Admissions committees use everything from golfing skills to phrenology to come up with reasons why a particular student should or should not be admitted. And admission is by vote.

This is the ONLY way that they have been able to get whites admitted in appreciable numbers. This is also true to a greater degree in Medical schools, where cronyism and corrupt admission processes are the norm, rather than the exception.

In Medical schools, in addition to phrenology, admission committees use their acute psychic abilities to predict who is ``well-rounded``, and will make a good doctor, and who is in it for the money. Meritorious students are voted out based on these psychic revelations, demonstrated merit be damned. The result is this huge number of doctors who are ONLY interested in money, patients be damned.

I have seen plenty of nerds from India who are not ``well-rounded`` do remarkably well and rocket to the top of their professions in an alien country, far removed from their homeland, with no support system around them. They are leading immensely productive lives, and have proved invaluable for the economic progress of their host country as well as their homeland. They are raising happy, well-adjusted families. Putting them down is not going to improve the future prospects of the ``well-rounded`` ones.

Re: # 155
This is pretty ridiculous-the one in 5 statistic, because that`s what it is, not one in four, would apply to everyone if it could be extrapolated to outside the Western world, Indians and Pakistanis. Also, one in five have not been diagnosed with depression, most cases are thought to be undiagnosed. Autism does not lead to becoming bipolar. Please do not spread misinformation about mental illness; stick to misinformation about India.

Ref

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...

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#112

[(c) the quality of life? how different is it? This would have a bearing on the attitude as well. The likes of Charlie and others do not mind living in hovels and shanties in Paris and London, but in India - you got to be kidding. The same applies to an Indian in Pakistan.]

One of the private engineering colleges in Chennai takes the visiting parents around on a campus tour. Before they built the college, they sent people out to the UK to study how to run a cafeteria serving hundreds if not thousands of students. The result is a gleaming all-stainless steel kitchen and serving lines maintained to the highest sanitary standards. All bathrooms have an attendant whose job is to clean them every half hour. So don`t worry on that account. They will be living better than at home.

[(d) finally, the most important questions: What subjects/areas would the Pakistanis want to join and what areas are the Indians willing to open up? A point to note: again from staistics and from what I hear, the competetion for one place in professional colleges is immense (1:1000 or more in some cases). If this is the case would the new enterants be extra in the class room (i.e incresae in class size) or would they replace/displace some one from India. Note, recently all the professional colleges have had a great fight over increase in class sizes - so the new enterants will be displacing the local ones.]

In Tamil Nadu, we just added 20,000 more seats just this year, primarily in Civil Engineering and Aeronautics. Competiton is stiffest for Computer Science, Electrical and Communications Engineering, Electrical Engineering, Mechanical Engineering (generally in that order) for your bachelor`s degree. At the master`s level, the same subjects are the most sought after with the addition of the MCA (Master of Computer Applications).

[(e) Finally that perrineal thing - which Romair touched upon) most Pakistanis leave te country to study abroad in the hope of a job. Now this is the conundrum.]

You might have meant ``peripheral`` meaning ``of, relating to, involving, or forming a periphery or surface part``. Or ``perennial``, meaning ``persistent, enduring``. On the other hand, perineal might be what is known as a Freudian slip!

Main Entry: per·i·ne·um
Pronunciation: ``per-&-`nE-&m
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural per·i·nea /-`nE-&/

Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin perinaion, from Greek, from peri- + inan to empty out; perhaps akin to Sanskrit isnAti he sets in motion
: an area of tissue that marks externally the approximate boundary of the outlet of the pelvis and gives passage to the urinogenital ducts and rectum; also : the area between the anus and the posterior part of the external genitalia

- per·i·ne·al /-`nE-&l/ adjective

This is a very bad idea.Anti pak feeling has increased in india after kargil and terrorist attacks.
If any other border skirmish or terrorist attack happens, if I m a pakistani student, the last place on earth that i would want to be in is in an indian college.

Re: # 157

Hamidm Sahib:

You said it... what I have been saying that IITs and IIMs are magnets of talent. It is student body that come to it due to strict merit based criteria (only 1% selection as against 10% selection in Ivy leagues) that makes IITs and IIMs what they are. The faculty is just as good as any B grade univesity in the U.S.

I am certain Pakistan can do it, by not allowing Generals etc. to send in their kids, and make it strictly merit base. You will see out of 170 million or so Pakistanis the cream coming to the top as well.

There is no need to send Pakistanis to be trained by Hanumans. Hanuman has more people to train than it can. The best is open the borders, let markets blossom, let profit go where it should, certainly not to the middle men in India, Dubai or Pakistan. You will see results. Kashmir will get solved overnight. Who would want to freeze in Siachin when he can make money in his backyard.

Anil

always look a gift monkey in the mouth

i am gone for a week and all sorts of stupidity breaks loose on the chowk ! .......... look, i don`t believe in looking a gift monkey in the mouth, but you have to be careful because it might bite you - there is a big difference between equidae and primates !

..........regardless of the fact that i have great admiration for IIT graduates, i recognize the fact that these macaccas might be as good as as they are because they are simply the best of the breed of a billion people - i am not really sure it is because otf the iit`s standard of education ........ as far as graduates from other indian colleges and universities are concerned, they seem to be just as good or bad as the average abdul coming out of pakiland ........... but to give hanuman his due, i would suggest that pakistani students who cannot get into any one of the top 100 school in the us, canada, europe, australia and the republic of burundi should accept FULL scholarships to iit`s and imm`s ONLY - and nothing short of full scholarships ............ if nothing else, we can get the bania to part with a few measly rupees and watch him writhe in pain !

............ but it does seem a bit strange that these people would offer us scholarships and what not, when their own mohammadens are struggling at the bottom of the dung heap : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6159178.stm

............. like they say, beware of hindoos bearing gifts .......................

#155 by behram1

“having problems such as being autistic and after a certain age, they become bipolar.”

You are right on this count too. If what we see on chowk is the cream of the Indian education system, then there really is no hope for that system.

However, we do differ on sending Pakistani students to India. I think it would still be a good move. Considering the amount of time it takes to develop a school; our kids can take immediate advantage of an already existing system. We may not see the quality that we see in the European or in the American institutes, but the quantity is what we need in the higher education in Pakistan and now there are just not enough institutions to take care of this.

What surprises me is that per Khasi claim, education system is so good, still, why Indian kids want to come to the west for higher education?

If these code coolies are the cream of the Indian education system, then the rest must be completely bonga as they say in Karachi.

Thanks.

Re: # 153 by HP on November 17, 2006 1:50pm PT

Dear HP:

{Behram is so riiight! }

Thank you.

Another thing to keep in mind are that those Indians who outshine and make it to the west are probably having problems such as being autistic and after a certain age, they become bipolar.

In one estimate they suggested that some 25% of Americans have been diagnosed with some form of depression. Applying that ratio to Indians, it is safe to assume that from the lot (say at least 25%) who make it to the western shores, are definitely autistic and/or are bipolar.

No wonder on this chowk, they have one-liner comments and just have their views being stuck to some cut & paste technology.

Respectfully submitted,

#152..hmmm methinks paki parents with daughters might consider indian schools as a safer alternative to corrupting schools in the west.