Indian Scholarships for Outstanding Pakistani Students

Ditto here

great idea, i hope someone influential enough is reading it.

Re: # 144

Quiet biased you are, Mr Bbabu

Re: # 140

I actually agree with both of u. Ballu and tahmed...First off: this longing friendship has to start in immaturity --turst my guys it takes LONG for someone to heartedly accept eachother even if one is at fault. Secondly, if not in immaturity than the mature minds (many times) take too long to learn. The leftover matures who are capable enough to bring about friendship will not make enough movement; thus, no major influence.

:) Hope this settles the argument.

PS. You guys fight like kids here. Let`s act mature hun. Pakistan/India are comparable only in very few terms > gota look at geographics too (Maturity needed to understand :D)

However, considering the current world-wide-muslim state, Pakistan is not doing too poorly as a developing country.

Overall, I certainly would appreciate some common sense being used.

RB

Re: # 470

I have been following your posts trying to bring moderation in the interactions on the Chowk and much appreciate the spirit, alas, only if one could control one`s impulse to have the last word...
A sane approach I daresay.

Re: # 468

Respected Muqaddam,

There is no need to berate your compatriot with such dirty language.

Re: # 468

Muqaddam,

Cant agree more. :-)

Re all posts on the BeHaraami No.1

Remember, if you throw stones in shit you will only get splashed by shit, no different with our shit loving be-haraami No.1. The shit that he is he should just be allowed to rot. I doubt if he is a Parsee after all. Seems more of a bhangi.

INSTEAD OF BICKERING ABT THE GOOGLE THAT`S SHOWING MIRROR TO US, LETS HEAR FROM HORSE MOUTH I.E WORLD ECONOMIC FORUM ABT OURSELVES.

Source:

http://www.weforum.org/en/initiatives/gcp/Global%20Competitiveness%20Report/index.htm

Comparative statistics for India, Pakistan and China:

(These ranks are of the member countries of WEF’s 125 countries).

OVERALL GLOBAL COMPETITIVENESS FOR 2006-07

INDIA (43) - PAKISTAN (91) - CHINA (54).

These follwing parameters wud determine our medium as well as long-term outlooks for the respective countries.

Parameter Rank
(Indian-Pakistan-China)

Institutions 34-79-80
Infrastructure 62-67-60

Macroeconomy 88-86-6

Health & Primary Education 93-108-55



Higher Education & Training 49-104-77


Market Efficiency 21-54-56

Technological Readiness 55-89-75

Business Sophistication 25-66-65

Innovation 26-60-46


Anybody who`s familiar with management education wud know that Michael Porter is to Marketing as Newton is to Physics. This is what he said this year at Davos:

``INDIA, says Michael E. Porter, a Harvard Business School professor and expert on competitiveness. China is exporting massively, but ``it`s still adding relatively little value,`` he says. Moreover, China`s companies tend not to be very profitable, and there is a dearth of Chinese brands. By contrast, ``India is further along in building a productive business environment,`` Porter said. ``It has talented high-end people with deep expertise in IT, software, pharmaceuticals. It has the opportunity to go much further.``

(source: http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/printout/0,13155,901060206-1154161,00.html)

My own observation as a student of economics is that India can outpace China in the long run as we are ranked behind them ONLY in Health and primary Education. Mind u that we are just bad as China in infrastructure in terms of ranking but not that bad as it was imagined. INDIA IS AHEAD OF CHINA (FORGET ABT THE FORSAKEN BROTHER PAKISTAN) IN ALL PARAMETERS OF LONG TERM GROWTH.

Instead of taking pride in India, the forsaken brothers, the Pakistanis - like the legeanday Mir Jaffer did - bat for Chinese and spike Indians.

Okhla,

I am for the battle wits but not the battle of abuses.

I asked this gentleman to argue on points but in response he posted long passages of irrational abuses. How I respond to them? Btw, I am not in the habit of holding the grabage given by others but passing them on with some interest earned on it....;)

Dear Okhla, pl direct some of ur mind to ur compatriot so that he`d be limiting his points to `arguments` than abuses. I AM NOT THE SOURCE OF ABUSE BUT HE IS! So u know where to contain it.

Thanks bro for ur moderation......

VRV,

So you acknowledge that you have these inner compulsions that lead you to write these
nasty irrelevant irrational posts. So what if they would appear offensive to rational
sensibilitie !! You just have to do something ``perforce`` and to hell with the world.

May I point out that this exact trait is also shared by the mad jehadi suicide bombers.

Okhla,

Sorry man, if u dont like the posts here. Pl dont read them. I had to write them perforce!

++++

Neutered Haraami (circumcised),

Inspite of haraamis and beggers/squatters like u who despise India and Indians, I dont like to comment on Indian Parsis and their religion, coz Indian Parsis are the pride of India.

What u wrote is nothing but heaps of garbage, just like ur mind.

After day`s work cleaning septic tanks of Indians (American Indians or Indian Americans) in Austin, u try to pass on some muck to these boards.......for pleasure????? Man, u shud go to ur hometown i.e Karachi where u`d get plenty of sewage for ur pleasure - on roads, streets.....and in paalak for ur food.

---

U are stateless, lifeless, honourless, statusless, shameless, illetarate, uncouth, uncilviised and what not of that type beHaraami. Ur life is a saga of the job u do everyday......i.e a lot of sewage in ur mind, mouth, deeds and wrtire-ups.

Thoooooo....ur life.....is a waste, beHaraami.

Behram, Krishna, VRV & Co.

Just read your own last few mails from a western perspective. No wonder we south asians get the ``respect`` we deserve all over the world.

You guys sound much worse than mad mullahs. Blind abuse and curses. No substantial discussion.

Even the Jehadis would be better than you lot. May the curse be upon you for the simple reason that mere existence of such mindsets continues to plague the relations between the two countries. The man on the street pays the price while folks like you continue to foment hatred and intolerance while safely enconced in the west.

Please do not take it like a joke or a pastime. It is not. Take your petty bickerings and ``maa-behn kee`` elsewhere. Restrict your comments to the topic.

A whole bunch of us find the lot of you disgusting and repulsive.

Re: # 458 by krishna_abcd on November 24, 2006 8:10pm PT

Lord Krishna:

Just like that other Hindoo from your Hindoo Land, you have developed Restless Brain Syndrome (RBS), when you start writing:

[I think everyone should realize by now that behram-baba is no Parsee.]

Are you getting embarrassed in exposing your hatred towards anything that is Pakistani, eh? Or are you just getting angry for unnecessary attacks on Parsees? Parsees, who have nothing to do with your Hindoo Land`s hatred towards anybody.

Why are you tormenting? Huh!


[Being a professional cheater and taking advantage of programs meant for actual human beings, this kind of cheating comes naturally to him. ]

At least try to create your own wit (if you have any, that is?) Do you always copy other people`s style, eh! Looking in the mirror should show you how ugly you are, because you are a Hindoo from Hindoo Land. Hindoo Land is a land which is world famous for mass murderers. Is it not?

But the fact remains that you were born in the cheater`s class of Hindoo Land, and that you were ingrained to cheat your way in this life. But you learned only to cheat in acquiring wealth by hiding money and not giving your fair share of taxes. You left a dilapidated Hindoo Land with absolutely no infrastructure, and yes, your Hindoos are squatting on those rail road tracks.

Can you not see as to why you are so tormented? Being raised as a bonafide person from the cheater`s class has its costs, does it not?

Respectfully submitted,

For your reading pleasure

Hindoo gangsters from Hindoo Land have this need to convince others that somehow they are educated. Well, they are not. Besides AIDS, most of them have autism and are bipolar. Hindoos, those who are in Hindoo Land, and those from Hindoo Land are very cunning and corrupt. This generation of Hindoos were raised by parents who developed the cheater`s class, where taking bribes was very common.

As Wipro`s Azim Premji, said a software engineer in India makes only $ 9,000.00 per year, and that also in 2006. So a fair question would be:

What were the salaries of these office politicos cheaters who were getting ahead, or were giving a-head as the case maybe?

How could these cheater`s of Hindoo Land afford to send their children to the west for education?

All those Haram-Ki-Daulat by asking bribes and double dipping in the employer`s money. Now the children`s of these shameless Hindoo cheater`s class of Hindoo Land is once again trying to make people in the new world believe that they have some value to the corporate world. The only thing that these Hindoos from Hindoo Land can offer is autism. Most Hindoo from Hindoo Land are bipolar.

Do Hindoos have the Islamic concept of Haram or Halal? I doubt it. Heck, gujju Hindoos are known to suggest that ``chamri jaye pun dhamri na jaye`` These Hindoos` deen-or-imaan is money, is it not?

Respectfully submitted,

#455 by behram1

Guess now you`re real mad because this post was not suffixed with `Respectfully Submitted` .... !

I think everyone should realize by now that behram-baba is no Parsee. Being a low-life skunk and a coward, he uses the Parsee pseudo-identity as a shield to deflect criticism away from Muslims. That way, he can bash Hindus all he wants, without Muslims in Pakiland ever getting affected.

It`s a good ploy, but a few of his reactions have exposed him.

Being a professional cheater and taking advantage of programs meant for actual human beings, this kind of cheating comes naturally to him.

#445 by behram-baba (P.D.E.)

[Okla, where did you ever find an intelligent Hindoo? ]

Not in a septic tank. Which is where you find intelligent P.E.s from Pakiland.

You find intelligent Hindus in Microsoft, Motorola, NASA etc.

:))


[They were raised by Indian parents who were a bonafide member of the cheater`s class. Back in the early 50`s and 60`s this group of people became employees of some corporation or became a babujee in some government employment.And then they learned the trick of office politics...]


behram-baba`s parents (he`s not sure which one of the four is his real mother :)), being Paki, never figured out the trick of office politics. So the female members of his family had to resort to turning tricks. Which is how behram-baba (P.E.) was born.

:))

#442 by krishna_abcd on November 23, 2006 8:33pm PT


#440 by behram-baba (P.E.)


It`s actually behram P.D.E.(Professionally disadvantaged engineer)..Please use his full title...It`ll help assuage his anguish at the fact that he`s just a small time contractor who only gets jobs because of affirmative action...

Circumcised Ch()tiya BeHaraami,

Garbage is ur point. So lets talk in ur lingo i.e garbage. I too like that coz I have a lot of liberty and lot of vocabulary to choose from.

Parsees are dwindling in numbers. Why, they are Neuters, like u. Their arses were kicked in Persia and later in Sanjan. Why they attarct Muslim feet on to their arses.

They were rendered stateless and beg - like u do in Austin - to eke-out a living. Why? They are beggers (btw, this apply to Napak Parsis and Neuters like u, Ch()tiya).

I never had a problem with the Indian Parsis but there are hybirds like u who cud be diff from pure Parsis.

I am clear from what u wrote. 1. U dont know history. 2. U dont have any points to argue.
3. U cling to abuses.

Well. So be it. We are back to sqaure one.

Disrepectfully Submitted, Ch()tiya BeHaraami aka Namak Haraami.

INDIANS: CH()TIYA BE-HARAAMI BE CONDEMNED AS HE DOESNT ARGUE BUT ABUSE. HE NEED TO PAID BACK IN KIND.

Re:#454 by VRV on November 24, 2006 6:04pm PT

[Behram, Lets start the debate with no objectiobale language either from ur or my side.]

Why a sudden change of style? Is this the same trick that hindoos from Hindoo Land are world famous for?

First, it has always been the Hindoos from Hindoo Land who cast the first stone any any discussion, and then your ilk define any bogus argument to your heart`s desire. Then you use Hindoos gangsterism is intimidating a descent interlocutor, and then you call the person all sorts of names, etc.

You think that I get intimidated. You choutia, I cherish such arguments, with the filth of your society. Yes, I work in a field to clean the stinking Hindoos from Hindoo Land on this Chowk. You and your people have no knowledge of history at all.

Let me start all over again. From where it started that Pakistan has the best engineers from South Asia, and they are almost always in their own professional engineering business. Unlike most of Hindoos from Hindoo Land, Pakistanis do not suffer from autism or bipolarism.

Whereas most Hindoos from Hindoo Land have been diagnosed as having autism or are bipolar.

Whereas most Hindoos from Hindoo Land have also been identified as having a low self-esteem and are on constant mode of belligerency.

Whereas most Hindoos from Hindoo Land have no intellectual knowledge whatsoever and they continue to be loquacious without knowing the content of any discussion what soever.

It is also suggested by Wipro`s Azim Premji that his company is now getting into the second, third, and fourth tier engineering colleges to get software engineers who are worth at less than $9,000.00 per year.

Now, that shows that Hindoo Land has fooled the west with sending the lowest of the low level engineers to the western world. This is exactly what the Economist had suggested several months ago. Whereas, for Pakistan nothing but the very best Pakistani graduates have come to the west, and are successful, no matter what that myopic and autist one-liner artist from Hindoo Land suggest.

{What ur point?

What`s this Hindoo Land and what that connote? }

And all of the above is my point. Give respect to any and all things Pakistani, and you will get all the respect from a Zoroastrian from Pakistan. No more Pakistani muslim bashing.

{Ur trip to Bombay in 1970 shud not be the basis for ur commennts now. Does that mean to say that all taxi users in Bombay were Pakistanis? Do u have any formal education?? }

Yes, it is my opinion about Hindoo Land, and I have aright to express what a garbage society Hindoos have created for the world to see.

{Moghals under Akber were looking east for prosperity? Was that Pak history? The reality was that Bengal posting were hated by all Moghal Governors. That was kinda punishment posting. Thats the true picture. If u read the books on India u wud know a place like Surat was burstling with traders from the Middle east and later by Europeans. Calcutta became prominent after the British settled there. }

You can play all kinds of nuances, but the fact remains that British took all the Gujjus to lay railroad tracks in Africa much later. They were successful in getting a hold in Bengal first, and then they came westward. Surat and muslim middle-east traders maybe, but were there any Hindoos to speak of. Hindoos bania were all over the trees with their dhoti hung upside down for the smugglers of middle east to shove up their hiney.

{Prosperity in India was in Gujarat (for many centuries). Gujarat was the surplus province under Mughals. Gujaratis were known mercantile civilisation since the times of Indus Civilisation. }

Yeah, rite. You can continue with your bogus story. What I have seen is that Gujju @ss being kicked in Africa because of their shenanigans? If a society has that many centuries of mercantile values embedded then why are they kicked out every place that they go?

Why have Parsees not been kicked out of any place as of yet?

[Parsees were good slaves to British and loyal Indians at the same time. They changed as they imitated British. Their growth was coterminous with the growth of British in India and that of Bombay city.]

So if it was the British that brought prosperity amongst the Parsee, why have you been claiming constantly about namk harami? eh! Why should I have any allegiance to Hindoos for anything that was not even done by the Hindoos? Your Hindoo brain has definitely got some Restive Brain Syndrome (RBS) (instead of RLS).

[If that was the level of ur logic and arguments......we better bicker at old levels i.e abuses. ]

I have seen your Hindoo level of interactions will almost anybody who has anything good to say about Pakistan. You hate Pakistan, and you know that. It will be a sign of maturity for you and all those Hindoos from Hindoo Land to come out and confess as such.

You are nothing else but a hate mongering Hindoo from Hindoo Land.

---

#453 by harimau on November 24, 2006 5:50pm PT

[The earliest trading posts of the Portuguese were also located along the Western coast of India... at Diu, Daman and Goa.]

Here is where a Hindoo chalaki shows. We were discussing British and their way to Hindoo Land was through its eastern ports, precisely because the west was taken over by the Potuguese. The discussion was regarding Parsee making wealth in Surat during British Raj. But, being a stupid tree jumping Hindoo monkey from Hindoo Land, you are only used to jumping into discussions without any context whatsoever.

Behram,

Lets start the debate with no objectiobale language either from ur or my side.

What ur point?

What`s this Hindoo Land and what that connote?

Ur trip to Bombay in 1970 shud not be the basis for ur commennts now. Does that mean to say that all taxi users in Bombay were Pakistanis? Do u have any formal education??

Moghals under Akber were looking east for prsoperity? Was that Pak history? The reality was that Bengal posting were hated by all Moghal Governors. That was kinda punishment posting. Thats the true picture. If u read the books on India u wud know a place like Surat was burstling with traders from the Middle east and later by Europeans. Calcutta became prominent after the British settled there.

Prosperity in India was in Gujarat (for many centuries). Gujarat was the surplus province under Mughals. Gujaratis were known mercantile civilisation since the times of Indus Civilisation.

>>>If Parsee were prosperous in Gujrat, then surely the British would have first ventured towards the western shores of India. But they didn`t.<<<

U dont the alphabets of history. THATS LOUD AND CLEAR FROM THE ABVE PARAGRAPH.

Parsees were good slaves to British and loyal Indians at the same time. They changed as they imitated British. Their growth was coterminus with the growth of British in India and that of Bombay city.

U dont have points but cling around the foolish/boorish phrases like Hindoo Land and poverty in Bombay. If u dont know, 1/3rd of the slum dwellers in Bombay are Muslims 9native & Bangladeshi). Even Shiv Sena uses Urdu leaflets to attarct these voters. I dont know if u are mocking the poor people or poverty of the poor Hindus+Muslims.

If that was the level of ur logic and arguments......we better bicker at old levels i.e abuses.

Ref behram1 #451

Man, your understanding of history makes the average Pakistani look like Arnold Toynbee!

[East India Company was formed in Bengal, precisely because Nawab Siraj-ud-daula, and his sultanat knew how to develop prosperity amongst its masses.]

East India Company was formed in London as a trading company to trade with India and the Far East.

[There was no hindoo ruler anywhere for British traders to come except the east coast of India. If Parsee were prosperous in Gujrat, then surely the British would have first ventured towards the western shores of India. But they didn`t. Precisely because those Gujjus were just jumping around trees like monkey. And for all that they had developed ``tarro`` a nauseating drink that could only be extracted before noon to have any affect.]

When the British petitioned Jehangir for permission to open a trading post (they called it a ``factory``.... factory did not mean a manufactory where things were manufactured but a warehouse from where factors could trade....) the Moghul Emperor gave them permission to open one in Surat. I know the average Pakistani`s knowledge of geography is smaller than what can be contained in a gnat`s brain but -- and this information is going to strain your brain -- Surat is in Gujarat and not in Bengal.

The earliest trading posts of the Portuguese were also located along the Western coast of India... at Diu, Daman and Goa.

Parsees bribed their way on to Hindoo Land. Here is what a Parsee writes from Hindoo Land:

[Though this story might belong to the realm of unrecorded myth, like all good myths, somewhere embedded in it is the `ring` of truth. Orthodox Parsis believe that it was actually a gold ring that was dropped into the milk, not a spoonful of sugar. ``You see sugar dissolves and we have always maintained our own identity. But the gold ring showed Jadhav Rana that we will not assimilate, at the same time we will not make the milk overflow and yet we will also enhance it.``

Whether it was, a spoonful of sugar or a ring of gold , permission to settle was granted by Jadhav Rana on four conditions. The strangers had to adopt the local language Gujarati and give up their own language Persian, their women had to dress as the local women in saris, the men had to give up their weapons and their marriage ceremonies had to be held in the dark.]

http://www.parsijourney.com/chapters/intro/intro.html

Wah, rah, wah, with these wanna-be Hindoos intellectual from Hindoo Land. Heads they win, and tails I lose. What sort of a rubbish theory is this that even the Newsweek was not able to capture the autism in these Hindoos from Hindoo Land?

Mughals under Akbar, and afterwards were all looking eastward, mostly because there was trade and prosperity. Bengal was under the rele of muslim Nawab Siraj-ud-daula. East India Company was formed in Bengal, precisely because Nawab Siraj-ud-daula, and his sultanat knew how to develop prosperity amongst its masses.

There was no hindoo ruler anywhere for British traders to come except the east coast of India. If Parsee were prosperous in Gujrat, then surely the British would have first ventured towards the western shores of India. But they didn`t. Precisely because those Gujjus were just jumping around trees like monkey. And for all that they had developed ``tarro`` a nauseating drink that could only be extracted before noon to have any affect.

It was not until mid-1820`s that the British invaded Sindh, and defeated the Talpurs. After that they invited the small time businesses of Parsees and Goan Christians to Karachi Saddar area, to help British soldiers.

The Parsee businesses were successful inspite of a the caste laden Hindoo society of Hindoo Land.

Re: # 449

Pl read the opening sentence in 449 as :

I DONT abuse anybody without a reason. ....

i/o

I am in a habit of abusing anybody without a reason.

Okhla,

I am in a habit of abusing anybody without a reason. I am open to criticism as long as it`s worded appropriately. We are not North Koreans to hide our bad and show-off the brighter ones. The tirade of this Neuter must be met with similar language. No more, no less.

Warrier,

U are right that Parsis got their wealth under the British. The website on Pasris www.parsijourney.com gives the full account of their history in India.

++++

I lived in Gujarat and I came across many Parsis. I never find this more incongruous than reading the posts of this Neuter who is a gigantic disgrace on all Parsis.

My landlord in Halol (Panchmahal) is a bus driver. His brother was a well-to-do farmer. His nephew is a house-pet whereas his wife works for a flour-mill as if she`s the sole breadwinner.

In my personal study I met a Parsi family living in Sanjan. There are less than 4 families living in Sanjan as of now. I also visited Sanjan bandar to see for myself the actual landing of the first batch. There is no specific spot that can be identified with their landing but there`s a pillar erected to commemorate the landing of Parsis in India but that`s located in Sanjan town.

It`s only a name (i.e Sanjan bandar), btw. There`s no bandar as such but a creek (bone-dry now) from Umargam, out of hundreds of such creeks into Arabian sea from west coast of India. Persistent enquiries revealed that Parsis came to Sanjan by coastal navigation but not by a high sea navigation.

I was told the 4 families that live in Sanjan may not be the descendents of the first batch that arrived in Sanjan, coz the first batch in Sanjan was raided by the Muslims as well. The current history is an evidence that the Sanjan bunder area is being inhabited by Muslims only. Parsis fled Sanjan and lived in hill-caves of the west coast until they felt it safer to return. That means they were forced to live as cavemen for 12 more years.

That was followed by waves of immigration. The Indian Parsis racorded the history and there`s literature with photographic description of their flight from one place to the other in India.

++++

I give below the appropriate passgaes that wud give the true picture of Indian Parsis:

Source: http://www.parsijourney.com/chapters/intro/intro2.html

>>>They built a fire temple, installed with due ceremony the holy fire which they called the Iranshah, the King of Iran; lived largely peaceful, obscure existences in various villages and towns of Gujarat as farmers, weavers and carpenters.<<<<

>>>>Unhampered by caste prejudices, Surat provided an ideal opportunity for Parsis to engage in occupations that they had never attempted before. Farmers became traders and chief native agents, carpenters became shipbuilders.

An adventurous few left Surat and moved south to Bombay, then only a set of islands, in the wilderness. Here, they acted as brokers between the Indians and the Portuguese. They were in Bombay when it was ceded by Portugal to England in 1665 and three years later when the Crown handed over the island to the East India Company, Parsis were already a presence.
......
......

The East India Company had grand plans for Bombay. They had visions of making this settlement a vibrant trading and commercial centre. In order to do so they needed to attract Indian traders, merchants and craftsmen to settle in and develop this frontier land. The terms they offered to native communities were generous and to an immigrant community like the Parsis must have seemed almost heaven-sent.<<<<<

++++++++++

Re: # 441
Behram

I am aware of the Parsi high priest being at Akbar`s court. However that doesn`t mean anything other than the fact that Akbar liked to surround himself with people of all religions.

J N Tata went to Jamshedpur to construct a steel plant. Parsis started making their money in Surat and Bombay first.



Tata was not the first rich Parsi.

Thanks

Re: # 446 by okhla99 on November 24, 2006 9:11am PT

Dear Okla,

I have a different take on this corruption issue that only a lot of Hindoos from Hindoo Land seem to have. As you must be aware of the constant drum beat that Hindoo Land has created a huge middle class. What is not mentioned in this rhetoric is that most have achieved this level of wealth through deceiving the regular masses, and not through contributing to the well being of the society. For example, in the mid-1970`s George Fernandez was the President of Bombay Cab Driver`s Association. He later on became the Defence Minister, and was caught for his fraud. This is all what Hindoo Land is all about. Of course, the parents of these folks who visit regularly on Chowk are also guilty of being a liar, trickster, and fraudsters. Otherwise, how in the world can an employee who makes less than Rs. 1,000.00 per month be able to send their children to schools in the US.

Heck, is that not why people from Hindoo Land took refuge in the Middle East, to earn a decent living? All throughout Shah of Iran`s reign, Hindoos had infested Iran searching for meaningful living, and that was only 27 years ago. Now can a corrupt society like Hindoo Land create such a blown horn middle class. Of course, this is the cheater`s class, which they erroneously call a middle class.

Just look at their country and you will be amazed at how dilapidated their social structure is. They are still killing for lack of dowry. And do you consider that a social value of some middle class society. Heck, if you go to Mumbai, even till this day, there are cows running the street, and people are squatting on the rail road tracks. And this is exactly what I saw in the mid-1970`s. Their taxis are always empty, because most people can not afford to take a Taxi. I was considered a well-to-do-Pakistani, because I travelled by Taxis, wherever I traveled in that slum of Byculla, Bombay. All they had was bus transport system and train etc., and most people would use such mass transportation. Why? Because they could not afford it. How many additional miles of rail lines has Bombay Electric Supply Transport (BEST) developed after what they got from the English? Very little. The reason being these corrupt souls who were supposedly working as an employee of some engineering outfit were busy cheating the day light out of ordinary citizenry.

And that is the fact.

{And yes, I have met a number of intelligent and decent Hindus too.
But not on Chowk.}

Of course, not on Chowk, and there is a reason for that. Those who regularly visit Chowk from the Hindoo Land, just come be pompous and denigrate anything to do with Pakistan. And I for one, will give them back, where it hurts them to the best of my ability.

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 445

Dear Behram,

A lot of Pakistanis also share identical characteristics of corruption, west-aping and other coefficients that you have been consistently associating with Hindus alone. A large number of
shortcomings in both countries/societies are common.

And yes, I have met a number of intelligent and decent Hindus too.
But not on Chowk.

Re: # 443 by okhla99 on November 23, 2006 11:14pm PT

Okla, where did you ever find an intelligent Hindoo?

They might have gotten some kind of a degree, and that is all they have. They were raised by Indian parents who were a bonafide member of the cheater`s class. Back in the early 50`s and 60`s this group of people became employees of some corporation or became a babujee in some government employment. And then they learned the trick of office politics and were unscrupulous in cheating the unsuspecting masses. The recent figure of Black Money in India is somewhere closer to 50%. This cheating class are sending their sons and daughters to another unsuspecting society like the west, and they are once again using the same tricks of cheating this society as well.

These people from Hindoo Land were disliked in Africa, primarily because of their ability to cheat the local economy. People from the cheater`s class have no shame.

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 442 by krishna_abcd on November 23, 2006 8:33pm PT

Dear Kaura Demag Lord Krishna:

Aap ka demag ka bhi koi jawab nahin? Granted some fled Persia when the recently converted muslims were kicking @ss all over the Mesopotamia. The Persians got routed all over the Persian empire, but it did not happen in one or two weeks. It must have taken years to get this accomplished, and most of the refugee called themselves as Parsees. This means people from the province of Pars, which is much further away from the southwest corner where Arabs reside.

These days people for the most part have become economic refugees. But, in those days going from one part of the world to another was never very easy, and there was no World Organizations. Besides coming to a new strange land, would also be unwelcome for the locals. Except of course the new comers are from a rich country, eh! Why do you think that ugly Hindoos from Hindoo Land are always drooling over an Anglo American? huh!

Also, where did this Hindoo raja`s territory started and where did it end? Was there ever a geographical boundary assigned? or were these people like animals they would roam around wherever they could?

Why is there a legend that fleeing Parsees promised this raja that they will never convert any locals Hindoo away from their Hindoo religion? Even till this day, Persians by their very nature do not like to associate with ugly Hindoos. But, in the very olden days, before Paul mad conversion a popular game amongst politicians, most people stayed amongst the people they were born in.

But, Lord Krishna, you are a complete choutia, and you know that. Deflecting discussion to other issues would not glorify your Hindoo Land`s chaotic history. Heck, even ALexander got sick and died in your stinking land. Did he not?

Please continue with your diatribe, because it is fun to humiliate those from Hindoo Land. Shortly, we will have autistic Hindoos and bipolar hindoos typing their ill gotten knowledge, and exposing for all once again how unenlightened Hindoos have always been.

Respectfully submitted,

Yaar,

The way you guys hijack all topics to naked Pakistan bashing and Muslim bashing is
disgusting. If you all are so intelligent as you claim to be, kindly keep the discussion within
civilised limits.

Arjun and Krishna are particularly vitriolic. Ranjit appeared rational in the beginning but soon succumbed. VRV, Devkant and Monto have all degenerated to the same level. Behram is now plumbing new depths.

Tell me, do you achieve anything by this???

Intellectually, you appear to be closer to the mad mullahs than to intelligent rational
debaters. If educated, intelligent Indians and Pakistanis cannot engage in civilised debate, why should we blame our Mullahs, Militaries or Politicians????

I Know I am going to get a lot of ``But he started it...`` or ``But first he....`` or ``He
always....``. But seriously, guys, think.

Let us all strive to improve the quality of debate.

#440 by behram-baba (P.E.)

[Nevertheless, the refuge was granted not because of some goodness of Raja`s heart. The refuge was achieved due to the enormous wealth the fleeing Persians had. Throughout history in cases of war only the rich can afford to be refugees in some other land. They came by boats to Sanjan, and only the rich would be able to afford such expeditions. ]

The hated Hindoos of Hindooland should note that other than being a professional septic-tank cleaning contractor, behram-baba (P.E.) is also an amateur historian.

Yes, it may be true that behram-baba has absolutely no proof that the desperate and miserable refugees who fled their homeland to preserve their faith from the hands of the ever-tolerant Mooslums had no little pieces of gold, silver or diamonds in their miserable bags and baggages (India had the biggest diamond mines of those times) that the Indian king fell for. But behram-baba (P.E.) has used his brain (stuffed with septic-tank residues) to apply some P.E.-grade logic. I mean, look around you. Filthily rich refugees froim Bangladesh pouring into the erstwhile hated Hindooland. Refugees from other Mooslum-countries like North Africa pouring into countries like France with gold bullions and pigeon-egg-sized diamonds bursting out of their pockets.

Everywhere in the world, whenever you see refugees, think ``mucho dinero``!

It is not for nothing that behram-baba is a honorary member of the Mentally Disadvantaged Society in Austin, Texas. Hindoos from Hindooland have got NOTHING on behram-baba. Why, only the other day in midtown Austin, behram-baba (P.E.) was doing a Paki version of ``You can`t touch this`` along with the rest of his septic-tank cleaning crew.

Abbey Hindoos from Hindooland! You think you can touch this? Eh?

Re: # 438 by swarrier on November 23, 2006 2:26pm PT

Swarrier, you could use some clarifications.

Parsees got prominence in Mughal King Akbar`s rule, and had the High Priest as a member of his darba. They achieved their industries near present day Bengal. Actually, Tata Steel Mill is in Jamshedpur, which is closer to Bengal than to Gujrat.

Re: # 438 by harimau on November 23, 2006 5:02pm PT

{When they met the local raja and asked for permission to live amongst his subjects, the raja is supposed to have shown them a full glass of milk, meaning there wasn`t space for any more people. The Parsis replied by putting sugar in the milk indicating they would mingle with the locals and add sweetness. That is how they won the raja`s permission to stay on in his lands.}

And how far and vast this raja`s lands were supposed to be? Being a local raja of Sanjan is one thing, but taking on the role of being a raja all of Hindoo Land is a bit too far fetched.

All of this is good for the Parsee, and they can continue to pay their homage to the Hindoo Land, but can this view be applied to those Zoroastrians who were never a refugee to the Hindoo Land?

Nevertheless, the refuge was granted not because of some goodness of Raja`s heart. The refuge was achieved due to the enormous wealth the fleeing Persians had. Throughout history in cases of war only the rich can afford to be refugees in some other land. They came by boats to Sanjan, and only the rich would be able to afford such expeditions.

Ref zeemax #436

[... ``allowed them to set foot on India`` ? Are you kidding? You should remember India was little more than a big dog with a lot of fleas on its back a thousand years ago, and the zoroastrians same as others were just another flea on its back after fall of the sassanids.]

The Zorastrians may have been yet another flea but they nevertheless had to seek permission from the local raja to live in his lands.

When they met the local raja and asked for permission to live amongst his subjects, the raja is supposed to have shown them a full glass of milk, meaning there wasn`t space for any more people. The Parsis replied by putting sugar in the milk indicating they would mingle with the locals and add sweetness. That is how they won the raja`s permission to stay on in his lands.

When you go back to 279 AD when the first jews landed near Cochin, they approached the local raja for permission to live as his subjects. They were permitted to do so and the leader of that group was given special privileges such as the right to carry a ceremonial umbrella. This grant was engraved on copper plates and is still preserved by Cochin`s Jewish community.

At all times, those who sought refuge in India asked for and received permission. They didn`t show up one day and live amongst the locals without getting protection from the local raja.

Re: # 436
Zeemax
A few clarifications. The Parsis/Zoroastrians gained prominence under the English and not the Mughals. They were mostly farming communities until they moved back to Surat and started working with the British in their factories and workshops. They remained loyal to the British which is why they were offered responsible positions in Bombay.

Let us say euphemistically that they were trusted by the British unlike other Indians who were seen as guileful because they didn`t quite see eye to eye with the British.

All that notwithstanding they certainly sought refuge in India and it was granted to them. And they have done a lot in India in turn.

It seems mitochondrial DNA analysis shows that the Parsis are genetically closer to Gujaratis than they are to the modern Iranians/Persians. So there must definitely have been some intermarrying with the local populace.

Taking the time off a busy thanksgiving schedule to bring this thread back to the topic.
I am glad that some Pakistanis are already learning a few good things in India. Jairamji ki. I think this is the positive side of Indian culture that we should learn about. At least I know I will be safe when I go to Pakistan and have little fun on the side:)


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4119982.stm

Pakistani sex workers visit India




A group of Pakistani sex workers have visited the red light district in the Indian city of Calcutta to discuss safe sex practices and combating Aids.

It is the first ever visit by Pakistani sex workers to any red light district in India.
The BBC`s Subir Bhaumik in Calcutta says over the last decade, sex workers there have formed a powerful organisation to protect their rights.
The have successfully improved their health standards.
They have also organised campaigns to raise awareness on preventing HIV/Aids.
The group of sex workers from the Pakistani city of Hyderabad visited Sonagachi - a sprawling red light district in north Calcutta.
``They have come to the right place because we are the most organised group of sex workers anywhere in Asia,`` Swapna Gayen, who heads the Calcutta sex workers` association, told the BBC.
Safe sex
They were briefed by local sex workers on how they have managed to combat sexually transmitted diseases and HIV.

``It was unbelievable to the delegation that Sonagachi`s sex workers refuse sex without a condom even in the face of physical torture,`` Majid Rani, who led the Pakistani team, is quoted as saying by AFP.
She said this was unthinkable in Pakistan and sex workers there would often be forced to have sex without condoms.
The visiting Pakistani women also visited a crèche for the children of sex workers and a consumer cooperative.
But Ms Gayen said they were particularly interested in brothel management and anti-Aids programmes.
Pakistan has 2,300 HIV-positive people, according to official figures.
But the World Health Organisation estimates that the figure could be closer to 80,000.

Jai ramji ki....

#433 by muqaddam re Behram

....should remember that India is the country which gave refuge to his forefathers, who were running from tyranny in Iran and allowed them to set foot on India and treat it as their own motherland. `ehsaan faramosh` or `namak haraam`.

... ``allowed them to set foot on India`` ? Are you kidding? You should remember India was little more than a big dog with a lot of fleas on its back a thousand years ago, and the zoroastrians same as others were just another flea on its back after fall of the sassanids. They gained prominence as merchants only during the Muslim Mughal rule sometime in 17th century when the Bombay Presidency was established, while hinuds continued to swing around trees. It was the Parsis who established the stock exchanges, the steel mills, the large scale industries and so forth. So who is `ehsaan faramosh` or `namak haraam`?

Hinuds never owned macacia. All the fleas owned the dog.

#433 by muqaddam on November 22, 2006 12:38pm PT
``All in all it appears that he has to outdo the Pakistanis in hating India and all things Indian because that is the only way he can show that he is a true Pakistani. ``

talk about stealing words from someone`s mouth.

however, let me also add that given all the venom he is spewing here on indians, i am 110% sure that in reality this guy may be the opposite of what he is trying to project himself here.

rgds,

devkant.

Only if in exchange, the Hinjras and the khusralsa be allowed to admit in the madrasas....

Be-haram(i) is again throwing a lot of stink. Here`s an old post.


Janab Tatti( due to his obsession with shitters by the railroad, if he is so enamoured by the sight, why not build himself a hut by the railroad and enjoy all the shitting scenes closely)) a.k.a. Mr `Lump of Shit` alias Behram 1 who( I now learn) is a Parsee, belongs to that clan of Iranians who thought it more dignified in seeking refuge in India than submitting to thoee marauding hordes who were laying waste to that beautiful land of Iran so that they could keep their faith from extinction.
Looking at his pedigree, why Janab Tatti`s posts are so venomously anti India is hard to understand.
He was born in Pakistan but speaks Gujarati at home like all Parsees, goes to the Agiary(Fire Temple) and when he dies his remains will be fed to vultures on a tower of silence. Most of his relatives are probably in India and thriving in a society that respects all religions, while he or may be his parents decided to stay on in Pakistan, out of compulsion obviously, because there is not a single Parsee who would have voluntarily opted for Pakistan after partition and moved to that part of the country.
All in all it appears that he has to outdo the Pakistanis in hating India and all things Indian because that is the only way he can show that he is a true Pakistani.

Mr Lump of should remember that India is the country which gave refuge to his forefathers, who were running from tyranny in Iran and allowed them to set foot on India and treat it as their own motherland. It is sad that while most Parsees have excelled in all fields and done their adopted motherland proud, we have here an ungrateful descendent of this great race who has nothing but hate for the land of his forefathers` adoption. He can only be described as a blot on the legacy of his clan and the only word to describe such people is `ehsaan faramosh` or `namak haraam`.

Godspeed to him.

Re: # 431

Yes, but there were two ways to handle the beast - there always are more than one way to address the problem. Americans, even though they understood the nature of beast very well, chose to destroy the beast - the very act that caused the beast to come into existence in the first place. The beast has proven itself to be industructible.

#426 amrikans were naiively happy to leave afganistan to taliban/pakistan as CAR pipeline sentrys..but the keeda of embassy-bombings, USS-Cole followed by 9-11 made them see the true nature of the beast.

Urstuly: You make some plausible points. But they are nowhere close to the whole truth, and as such are misleading.

1. Mining as a source of wealth creation: Scandinavian metals would have been useless without the Industrial Revolution where UK led the way, since that revolution created the demand for such metals. Similarly, Saudi oil would be useless without demand for it created by industry, since camels dont drink oil. And without wealth, there is no welfare state.

2. Taliban as a source of political stability: First your facts are wrong - post-Soviet Afghanistan was hardly a paradise of political stability, since there was a civil war going on. Second, even if there had been political stability and economic progress (which was definitely not the case), the taliban system was an undemocratic one. Regardless of what you think, Allah did not make maulvis his spokesmen on earth and in a civilized society one group of individuals does not claim an inherent right to impose its views on others.

#426 by Urstruly

My friend, how many people will see what you`re saying through the opaque goggles of their prejudice?

Wonderful post. Thanks.

Re: # 407
Stuka
Thanks for setting things right. I remembered the college in Dadar and I totally missed SNDT. I had a friend who attended the college at Dadar , she used to try out her concoctions on us.
I have no beef with steaks, I like them. Washed down with a bit of St.Emilion. We always offer the first toast to the gods, they liked their tipple too. -)

Re: # 344

Placement committee will provide their grandmother`s a$$ if it means getting the big companies on Day 1. Please don`t patronise me, I am basing this on first-hand accounts.

Madni

I am quite aware of Viking history of Scandanavia; but we are talking about the welfare states that they have now and how they established them. The fact of the matter is that, as long as they were barbarians of the north neither they got rich nor they were able to establish welfare states. They were only able to do that when they started mining their precious metals and became civilized traders.

Similarly, in Afghanistan when there was lawlessness and war but drug and weapons trade was on top, no one got rich except a few drug lords. The peace only came when law and justice was enforced by Talibans. The true indicator of that is the reduction of Afghan refugees to half the number that during the war years i.e. from about 3.8 million down to 1.8 millions. In those days a Pakistani truck carrying goods could travel from Landi Kotal to Mizar Shareef unhindered.

Imagine that, if Americans were wise enough and didn`t push Taliban against the wall, they could have a well protected oil pipeline from central Asia down to Arabian sea - a dream that Russians have dreamt for centuries. All the precious metals that Western mining firms are extracting from Central Asian states today like there is no tomorrow could have a safe and short passage to the rest of the world. The whole region would have been peaceful and prosperous and everyone from Westerners, Americans and indegenous people would have benefited from the resources of the region. But with their blindening hatered West has pushed this region into chaos for the next 4-5 decades at least and Afganistan is proving itself to be the graveyard of the empires once again.

The point is, that if war had not happened, and all development projects would have gone forward sans American stupidity, Taliban would have created another enviable Muslim Welfare state in the region - which they partially did even when they did not have anything.

#424 true. let us hope that humanity will evolve out of this stage as well. just as it evolved out of the raw-meat eating stage a few thousand years ago.

Tahmed sahib,

Ahmed does have a point as have you. Any race which has got the opportunities and means has tried to indulge in some form of imperialism.

Regards

mr. madani: what saying you of northern barbarian peoples part of truth is, but not is the whole truth, excuse me to contradict you my dear sir.

truth you is telling when you writing that northern barbarian viking people plundering and forcing poor local women to saying: ``Why King, Viking??``. but truth also that viking people (frisian, and later danes in 5th century AD) settling in UK. much of english is viking words (e.g. sky, skill, and in fact all `sk` words in english). and english is now world language now, sir, as you know very well indeed. so northern barbarian give birth to world language, sir. chinaman spea englee. indian babu speaking very very much in english and making it hinglish. ze france people very unhappy, but say ``au revoir`` to francais and speaking in engleesh. all people speaking viking language, sir. and so please viking people barbarian?? no.

king charles invade russia, you tell truth. but arab people invade africa and india and europe. so, is arab people barbarian sir?? i beg to say ``not!!`` to this question sir.

also, finn support hitler because they thinking sir that hitler less evil than stalin. ha! ha! but finnish people very nice people sir. not nazis. sometimes nice people make mistake and support wrong side.

i hope you agreement with me, mr. madani.

Re: # 420

Really these Northern Barbarians were too uncivilised at that time to colonise. Colonise means tohave means of production in their control and there is wealth genration which is needed to colonise were both lacking) Can afghans colonise Pakistan too difficult for uncivilesed Afghan society, are they Barbaric, yes they are.

Ahmed Madani sahib,

(Please excuse for my spelling and english and grammer, english refinement is in process all time. )

Don`t worry. It would seem that like me, you too haven`t had the benefit of getting educated from Ivy League colleges like LUMS, NUST etc.

Regards

Re: # 419
#401 by Urstruly on November 21, 2006 2:10pm PT
Re: # 398

``Thank you for mentioning Saudi Arabia, which is very close to what a Muslim welfare state should be. The only caveate here is their economic system i.e. 95% of their GDP is based on oil but so was once that of Scandanevian states who emerged as the top resources for the metal and other mined commodities in 17th, 18th, and 19th century. As a matter of fact the 90% of the post renaissance industrial revolution needs for metals was fulfilled by the Scandanevian countries and that is how they established their welfare states.

``Please keep in mind that no Scandanevian country has ever colonized a foreign land. ``

Dear Mr. Yours truely......The last statement is not factually not right. The scandanevians have been barbabarins of norths. Northern people deviod of suffient sun and wealth were famous as plunders riding on seas as sea devils. They use to annually raid norther Europe specially english islands and they use to plunder and kill people and loot and load stuff on ships and go back.Vickings as they call use to go on annual plunder in their ships. England/scotland people faught and finally after centuries raids were stopped.
King Charles of Sweadon was well know as Warrior king and absorbimg terrotaries. Peter the great Czar of Russia took inspiration from King Charles of Sweedon it is said.
In second war finland and Sweedon played worst tricks. Sweedon sold enormous arms to germans as their steel plants and cannon and gun factories were bumming all around providing arms to German armies. They sold at same time some equipment to AngloAmericans. Finland had full sympathy for nazies and allied with german armies against russia before full fledge german tank drive against Russia started. After they got peace treaty with S.Union they indirectly aided Nazies in encirclement of Leningrad by providing help to Germans. Then they sought treat with russia out of fear when reversal eventually came after defeat of german armies in north in breaking of sieze of leningrad, defeat at central front at Moscow and and in south at stalingrad. Fins were in difficult situation but later able get treat giving them peace. But to make such statement is right in broad contest.
Good afternoon.
Please excuse for my spelling and english and grammer, english refinement is in process all time.

Maulana Urstruly (pbuh),

(The Talibans were the myth breakers. They proved that a just welfare state is also possible when you have nothing in your hand. )

I am sure you would want a Talib state in Pakistan. Rest assured you are not alone. All the Hanuds on chowk would wish you Godspeed.

Regards

#387 by behram1

[Kahan thain aap? Humain tau aap ki layhni thee. ]


behram-baba,

What`s the point doing ``layhni thee`` on Chowk. If you have to do something, join your jehadi brothers and cross the border into Hindoo land. Hindoo jawans are waiting shoot you on the spot like a dog. :)))

And pretty soon, if the American authorities find out that you are a jehadi supporter, while begging for and living on the scraps of charity that the good white people throw your way, you would be on your way back to your Pakiland in no time. :)

So cool down, beta. Go clean some septic tanks.

:))

By the way, did you hear about the Indo-US Nuclear deal?

Very unfair, no?

:)

#309 by CoolAL

[God, people like this Dost Mitter dude make my stomach turn.

It appears that he was appaled at Behram for what he was saying about Hindoos(sic) and Hindooland(sic). However, he held back his comments all this time so that he could find something to ``balance`` it against -- you know the good old zero sum game. ]

CoolAL,

I wanted to make this post before, but didn`t have time.

When I read your post, my first reaction was, oh, so I`m not the nly one that noticed this. All these months, while behram-baba has been foulmouthing Indians, he had nothing to say. But the moment behram-PE gets cornered by the Hindus, his Moosla-unity bug bites him in the a$$, and he is compelled to give a 50-50 portrayal of the whole thing.

The thing with recent converts (especially recent Muslim converts) is that they are the most virulent of all. This is because they have something to prove to themselves. That they did not make a mistake. They also feel that they have lost something, but know that it is forever out of their reach (for fear of being beheaded by Urstruly-kind of Muslims who do not try to change the Koran to make it more respectable).

So they take out their latent rage on the Hindus - the community they cannot be a part of anymore. And this becomes more outwardly visible as time goes on.

The inevitable end-result of thinking with your penis and ``converting````.

#410
Where does it say in your cut and paste that Taliban ran a drug-free welfare state where Afghans were happy and well fed as Urstruly claims? Where does your article contradict my assertion that Taliban said they were not responsible for the Afghan population because Allah would provide?

Sadna,

Dont u think that Hizra Paaki is giving his lefthanded compliments to the ISI-run Taliban+AQ`s war in Afghanistan?


+++++++++

Indians,

BeHaram is a true Neuter and a true BeSharam coz he has stomach to give his posts again after his shining nangaa bum was shown to the Chowkies.

Effonjee need to be told of this:

India is a Hindu majority country but not a Hindu country. India is a multi-cultural, mutli-religious, multi-lingual nation. His education in Pakistan had done a great damage to his cognitive abilities. May be he too had copious amounts of sewerage treated paalak eaten in his childhood as it was the custom in Pakistan. The remnants are refusing to go away till his body is eaten by vultures (as per Parsi faith system).

HP # 410

Tell us how do Afghan warlords/criminals are any different from graden variety Pakistani politician or even some Indian politicians.

Urstruly#391:

I do not know about the Omar inspiration for Scandinavian countries; other than that I am in general agreement with your post. Indian education system does not lay any emphasis on character building. Gone are the days in your parents` and even my time when teachers regardless of their religious identities believed imparting education to be their ``dharma``. How can today`s teachers build character when they themselves seek ``oopar ki aamdani`` by agressively pursuing parents to send their children to their after-school coaching class to learn what they are supposed to teach the students during school time?

As for Saudi Arabia, I cannot agree with you. Yes, they have created a welfare state but only for a fraction of their population. The welfare benefits are denied to those - mostly Muslims and even Arabs - who are not citizens of Saudi Arabia. As you know, that citizenship is extremely hard to get.

Re: # 401

Tell me why growing and selling opium is exactly Islamic thing to do.

#409 by ranjit on November 21, 2006 4:24pm PT

I`ll bet he claimed refugee status saying he was persecuted in the land of the pure....

#397 Sadna,

Unlike you I hate to cut and paste articles but here is something that will open your eyes to the realities in Afghanistan. Mrs. Malalai Joya is the only person in Afghanistan who supports secularism.
The reality in Afghanistan is entirely different than your single track mind. Afghanistan is still very much a taliban country. The US failed to push enough buttons in that area to change the situation there.
Read this and cry like many khasis do...that will help you get a life...


KABUL, Afghanistan -- One of Afghanistan`s leading members of parliament, Mrs. Malalai Joya, warns that the current U.S. policy in Afghanistan is virtually certain to lead to another 9/11.
Joya has a unique perspective. In 2003, she blew the whistle on warlords and drug traffickers whom she said were being incorporated into the Afghan government. Ever since, she has received death threats on a daily basis.

``The circle — of terrorism, drug lords, and warlords ... will be complete when the Taliban comes in,`` she warns.

Any interview with Malalai Joya involves an element of risk. The hazards begin with a taxi driver who doesn`t know where the parliament building is. He stops to ask directions from a fruit vendor, then races down one of Kabul`s dusty roads past half-collapsed buildings that are riddled with bullet holes.

``Taliban!`` he yells, by way of explanation. ``Much fighting here!``
Upon arriving at the parliament building, I`m escorted into an unmarked car and informed that the meeting will be elsewhere. I`m driven to a house somewhere in Kabul.

A Prisoner of Fear
Bodyguards search me while other armed men wait outside the door. When I finally meet Joya, she apologizes profusely. Both her house and her office have been attacked, she explains, and she sleeps in a different place every night.

``For me it is torture to have these bodyguards,`` she says. ``But I have to have them while fighting against the warlords and gangs, and especially since I`m young. If I want to do something for my people, I have to stay alive and it`s painful. But on the other hand, if I look at all the people that live under bad security conditions in Afghanistan, I at least have protection.``

An attractive woman, smaller than expected and just 27 years old, Joya`s dark eyes belie an honest intensity that has won her both loyal friends and mortal enemies. She has made it her mission to help her country fulfill the promises of fair and just governance made after the Taliban were overthrown.

The so-called ``Northern Alliance,`` a coalition of regional and religious organizations, governed Afghanistan from 1992 to 1996 before one of its member groups, the Taliban, took over the government. After a U.S.-led coalition in 2001 ousted the Taliban regime in response to the 9/11 attacks, Northern Alliance figures were appointed to government positions despite their extensive and well-documented history of human rights abuses.
And from Joya`s perspective, that`s the biggest problem Afghanistan now faces.

Malalai Joya says the former Mujahideen - ``warlords who have now learned how to talk about democracy and women and how to wear a suit and a tie`` - are no better than the Taliban: ``Every country that wants to prove itself as real and honest friends of the Afghan people must stop following the policy of the U.S., because this is not a real democracy and this is not a real war on terror. At one hand they are saying `we fight the Taliban` and on the other we have members of parliament who are Taliban. The only way is to stop this policy. If they don`t stop this policy, I am sure that one day there will be another September 11. Another September 11 will happen — because they are like the Taliban [and] they will act like the Taliban.``

Keeping the Warlords at Bay

Joya says, ``Look, they want again an office of `vice and virtue,` just like the Taliban had, and which they used as a pretext for their crimes. This is the reason we want a secular government. With a secular government, they cannot commit their crimes in the name of Islam. Or in the name of Jihad. Until these warlords, these drug lords, who right now have the support of the U.S. and its allies in our country, until they become powerless, our people can never hope for democracy, women rights, human rights, and especially security in Afghanistan.``

As one example of the approach that Joya objects to, Sen. Bill Frist, R-Tenn., while visiting Afghanistan two weeks ago, voiced his support for efforts to bring ``people who call themselves Taliban into a larger, more representative government.``

She says these are the same ``warlords and drug lords [who] committed lots of crimes when they were in power under the name of jihad and even now are committing lots of crimes under the name of jihad and Islam.``

Joya dismisses the current talk about Pakistan supporting the Taliban. That, she says, is a deliberate distraction from what she claims is the real issue: the presence of criminals in the current government and the crimes they commit with impunity.

She says one member of parliament is known to have killed two children and thrown them in a river. Another, she says, used to kidnap people and put them in his personal jail.
``But nobody discusses this inside the parliament,`` she says. ``When I try to discuss it, they threaten me. So I ask you, are these the Pakistan-supported terrorists?``

The people who control parliament also support the Taliban, Joya says.

``I have received reports, for example, that a car loaded with weapons went from Kabul to the Logar province and they were captured. The investigation showed that it belonged to people in power and they wanted to give it to the Taliban,`` she says.
Today there are 31,000 NATO soldiers keeping the peace in Afghanistan as part of the International Assistance Security Force (IASF). The IASF force includes 11,250 soldiers from the United States; 5,200 from Britain; 2,750 from Germany; and 2,100 from the Netherlands, plus forces from 33 other countries.

Willing to Rebuild — But Safely

Joya says Afghans will ``rebuild their country with their bare hands`` as long as there is security, and if the international community stops supporting the ``warlordism government,`` as she calls it. The warlords, she adds, should be brought to justice before the International Criminal Court.
``If they want, they can do this,`` Joya states. She points out that in 2005, a London court convicted former warlord Faryadi Sarwar Zardad for torture and murder.
``Most of these criminals that are now in power were like Zardad`s teachers. He was their student,`` she says.

``I`d like to remind you how easy it was,`` she adds, ``for the U.S. to destroy the government of the Taliban. It was very easy when they wanted it, right after 9/11. And I would like to tell you, and especially those countries around the world that support these criminals who are now in the government, that they have the same ideals as the Taliban. One day, they will do another September 11. They are more dangerous than the Taliban right now because they are in power.``

Re:DrDr #404

[..behram shud make a mocumentary `cultural learnings of AA for make benefit glorious nation of zorastristan`....]

He he!! It gets better and better....

Actually, since Behram claims that he has never worked in a corporation or an university, I wonder how he got his green card. Must be marriage fraud, probably to some latino or black in Texas. That would be in line with his Affirmative Action situation.

#407 by stuka on November 21, 2006 3:38pm PT


Also, as Urstruly mentioned, Indian education system stops at applied knowledge and does not provide ideology :)


your school teaches kabab...

the maulana wants kabab and jihad(and a goat for you know what)....

Swarrier / Zeemax:

``Come to think of it ... hotel management is a great discipline which is somehow taught best in Austria for some reason ... Even though it is vocational too, but teaches a lot of soft skills ... like how to serve a rich relative who happened along when you`re serving tables ... hmmm``

For the record, there isn`t just the one college in Mumbai. There are 15 GOVERNMENT managed ones and umpteen private ones. I am a graduate of the Delhi IHM, the corresponding equal to the Dadar one that Warrier mentioned.

The three year course (I believe now its 4 years) provides all the disciplines (Food Production, Food and Beverage Services, Guest Services and Housekeeping) along with typical business courses like accounting, management, marketing, basic info systems etc. In India (also in Salzburg, Sweden etc) you graduate with enuff technical knowledge to move in to the kitchen or the front of the house side. In US, you basically adopt one stream or the other and graduate as a specialist.

Come to think of it, Hotel Management is one field where India should give scholarships to Pakistanis. Our college was already doing so for Tanzanians etc. When I came to the states as an undergrad transfer, all the Pakistanis were transfers from European schools and yet they were middle class kids who had to scrimp and save. They said Pakistan does not have preoper univ / college level courses.

Also, as Urstruly mentioned, Indian education system stops at applied knowledge and does not provide ideology :)

Well, hotel management is one field which does not even have the pretence of ideology. It is applied knowledge alone and the field also caters to people who have no ideology to speak off. I speak from experience here. Aslo, its one field where Pakistanis will find cultural similarity. I think ours was the only school where cooking beef steaks was part of the curriculum as well as the cafeteria menu. And I cannot imagine potential Jihadi type mixing cocktails and puring wine in beverage class.

#401 by Urstruly on November 21, 2006 2:10pm PT


Why didn`t you immigrate to the glorious islamic welfare state of the taliban rather than coming to the evil empire?

Re: # 394 by ranjit on November 21, 2006 12:38pm PT

Once agian taking refuge with someone with autism eh?

{Come to think of it, we should call behram the ``parsee bhangi`` for his use of affirmative action....no offence to bhangis intended.....}

Ofcourse not because you are yourself a bhangi.

Have you not had enough of your black hiney kicked back to your squatters land that now you are wondering around for some Hindoo support for thos who are bonafied bipolar or that cut&paste autistic idiot, huh.

behram shud make a mocumentary `cultural learnings of AA for make benefit glorious nation of zorastristan`

#401
You really need to get beyond the ISI and drug mafia`s propaganda in the Pak Urdu Press that the Taliban were presiding over happy and well fed citizens in a drug free welfare state. Alternate information which directly contradicting your dearly-held beliefs is readily available all over the place and to seek it is your responsibility as a thinking individual.

#400
How can it be cruel to point out one example where the compassion of God was explicitly incorporated in the workings of the state :)

I may be mistaken but I think in traditional hindoo-ism the ideal raja`s duty to his subjects is part of his own karma/dharma/rap sheet also, in which God may or maynot intercede to help him later.

Re: # 398

Thank you for mentioning Saudi Arabia, which is very close to what a Muslim welfare state should be. The only caveate here is their economic system i.e. 95% of their GDP is based on oil but so was once that of Scandanevian states who emerged as the top resources for the metal and other mined commodities in 17th, 18th, and 19th century. As a matter of fact the 90% of the post renaissance industrial revolution needs for metals was fulfilled by the Scandanevian countries and that is how they established their welfare states. Please keep in mind that no Scandanevian country has ever colonized a foreign land.

Now what Saudis have done with their natural wealth is quite astonishing. The sprawling cities, with sky scrapers, a highway system and other infrastructure; the free health care, free education, pension system, law, and justice all indicate towards a well functioning welfare state which is envied all around the globe. With 20 years of sanctions, Libya has done quite well; and hasd Iran and iraq not engaged in the 10 year conflict, these two countries would have well surpassed saudi arabia by now.

But this wealth of Arabs have created a myth that a welfare state is only po