Understanding Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto

Re: # 84

``Sanatani your problem is that you bring your Bihari and UPite hate and plaster it on the Muslim majority areas that were mainly secular.``

If you read my post clearly here and elsewher on chowk you will find that I am from the west Punjab. For the record my family belongs to Mandi Bhauddin, Pind Dadan Khan, Sialkot, Bhera, Lahore, Icchhra and Emnabad,

``Your dirty central Hindian politics was always a distant joke for Muslim majority areas of modern day Pakistan and BDesh.``

``So you Biharis and UPiets keep your mutual Babri-Musjid Raam Mundir hatred to yourself. `` Its just not that its Kashi Vishwanath and Gyan Vapi, Krishan Janambhoomi and Alamgiri Masjid also, as well as the other 8,500 hundred Mandirs turned into musjids. However tht is all post Independence and has no bearing here. Pre partition is Shahidganj Masjid and I have already commended Shri Jinnah`s role in the same.

``Things were not that different in the days when Brits were the king, and Gandhi was recruiting young Indians to serve in the Queen`s army. `` If you would have read my posts you would have known that is how I have characterised him and that is how I wish the rest of my countrymen to know him i.e. a recruiting sargeant of the British Indian Army and that is the second best 1 can say about him.

``Gandhi initiated fundoo lawlessness in the name of Khilafat movement.`` Very true I have said that in my post, but remember he was the spark and catalyst for this the average Muslim was being roused by both the Deobandis and Barelvis on this issue since 1892 year of Greek Independence.

``Most of the R$$hites went along because they wanted to use this illicit anti-Brit fundoo anger ultimately to force British on textile taxes. `` This is rich and stupid. The RSS was born in 1925 as a reaction to the wanton killing of Hindus by Muslims post Khilafat which was condemned by everybody save Gandhi and Nehru (Moti Lal) and their Khilafatist allies like the Ali brothers and various other Maulanas. Dr Ansari and Jinnah rotundly condemned the Muslim behaviour probably the only time a leading congress muslim ever did that of course Shri Jinnah was head and shoulders above everyone else save Sardar, Bababasahed and Veer.

``Poor Gandhi and R$$hites were so narrow minded that they ignored warnings from Punjabi leaders (Ch. Fazal Hussain, and lala Lajpat Rai), and a national Congressi leader aka Jinnah. `` RSS did not exist so this statement is false. Gandhi had just tasted power for the first time and as we know power corrupts and there was no one as corrupt as him. He wasnt narrow minded but a complete scumbag who thought by behaving like a petty thief he could command the loyalty of Muslims and he could not because of the sheer stupidity of his in inflaming muslim opinion through Khilafat. An opinion that has been moderated to show the outside world e.g. after partition but never doused. One does not blame the muslims for this they are attempting to faithfully carry out the command out of the peadophile murderer, that compendium of hate and their religous leaders for this read Mohammad, Kuran and Mulllahs.

``So you R$$hit guys sow the seeds of fundoo hatred and then blame it on secular Muslims. This is the type of Bihari qalabazis (spin doctoring) that keeps the hatred going.`` Your earlier lies have exposed so no point responding to this. Secular muslim is an oxymoron either you can be secular or a muslim. It is not for nothing that secularism has been termed as la diniyat by your scholars and no so called `modern` muslim has been able to disprove the same using kuranic logic. They have obfuscated the issue by asking for Ijtehad or tried to Takiyah by saying how well Islam treats minorities by making them Dhimmis. What Bihari qalabazi the RSS was pretty weak in Bihar. Despite that the Biharis used to give the muslims a shellacking 16-20 times a year, since Lallo Yadav only once. BTW why do you call this Bihari Qalabazi. Me thinks you are a tight ass Punjo Pathan types from Baakistan (isn`t that how your bedouin master refer to your nation). Before trying to insult them try and remember the thrashing 13 Bihar gave your types in erstwhile East Pakistan.

``You may use your bhayya culture and call other fundoos as Bhai, but your hatred will never get you to nirvana. `` I am a Punjabi. Though I respect Bhayya culture. They have more integrity, are less hypocritical and treat their women better. The hatred is for Islam and not muslims. Whether I get Nirvana or not depends upon Paramatma and not you.

``Mark my words! Hindu and Mulsim fundoos will always burn in the sectarian hell.`` A Hindu cannot be a fundamentalist. Please use your pea size brain to try and see if you can comprehend that.

Aur taiko ek baat bata how did you come up with this gem ``Most of the R$$hites went along because they wanted to use this illicit anti-Brit fundoo anger ultimately to force British on textile taxes``. Please could you explain what this means and what are you trying to say here. But it was rich comedy we all had a good laugh.

Thanks a Lot for the laughs

Sanatani

On a serious note you appear to have less rabidity than people of your deen. Start looking up bharatvani and faithfreedom. You may revert back to the religion of your forefathers.

#84

Ama Taiko, when will you get it through your head that the Biharis and the UPs have not been responsible for the mess that the Pakistanis find themselves in!

You guys have done it all to yourself.

Gandhi was not responsible, either (you guys rejected him and followed the vamp instead). The vamp was a dictator essentially telling everybody:

``My way or the highway!``

Well, his bluff got called - as was inevitable - and he ended up with the tail of an elephant. The tail will never BE equivalent to the elephant - no matter how much the tail pretends to be an elephant.

Simple as that.

There is not a SINGLE example of a Pakistani ruler ruling by consensus. Be it the Bhutto, be it the Zia, or be it the Mushy. They have all followed the feet of the vamp!

You guys continued to swing that sword that Jinnah taught you to swing - always finding it more efficient to chop off heads rather than talking reason!

And it did not matter if it is was the army or the civilian leaders, You folks have not budged even a millimeter from your idiotic approach to ``problem solving``.

The approach remains -

(1) create a ``dushman`` and blame the ``dushman`` for all your problems,

(2) if the ``dushman`` is weak numerically (e.g., Hindus or Ahmediyas inside Pakistan), wipe them out and go look for the next ``dushman``,

(3) if the ``dushman`` whips your ass (as in case of India) - keep whining for third party intervention

(4) if the ``dushman`` is not India but CAN whip your ass - start licking his boots. (e.g., China or USA)

#83 sanatani sez

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Let us look at this from a purely Muslim point of view and that 1 specific point which changed everything. Khilafat.

Fact was Indian Muslims were excercised about the same and had been so since the 1890`s when Turkey started losing its Western Empire. Wrong as the whole movement was the Hindus did support the Muslims and what did they get in return you can read history and find out. I mean 5/6 of the sepoys who fought were Hindus they yet returned Bahadur Shah to the throne and what did the fanatical Muslims of Delhi do they slaughtered cows and declared a Jihad against hindus killed a 1,000 or so before being subdued.

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Sanatani your problem is that you bring your Bihari and UPite hate and plaster it on the Muslim majority areas that were mainly secular.

Your dirty central Hindian politics was always a distant joke for Muslim majority areas of modern day Pakistan and BDesh.

So you Biharis and UPiets keep your mutual Babri-Musjid Raam Mundir hatred to yourself.

Things were not that different in the days when Brits were the king, and Gandhi was recruiting young Indians to serve in the Queen`s army.

Gandhi initiated fundoo lawlessness in the name of Khilafat movement. Most of the R$$hites went along because they wanted to use this illicit anti-Brit fundoo anger ultimately to force British on textile taxes.

Poor Gandhi and R$$hites were so narrow minded that they ignored warnings from Punjabi leaders (Ch. Fazal Hussain, and lala Lajpat Rai), and a national Congressi leader aka Jinnah.

So you R$$hit guys sow the seeds of fundoo hatred and then blame it on secular Muslims. This is the type of Bihari qalabazis (spin doctoring) that keeps the hatred going.

You may use your bhayya culture and call other fundoos as Bhai, but your hatred will never get you to nirvana.

Mark my words! Hindu and Mulsim fundoos will always burn in the sectarian hell.

Re: # 82

Zeemax Bhai,

You say ``But you succumbed to the illusion of a delusional power of numerical superiority in 1940s, without realizing who Muslims are, and their potential, and that how many Muslims defeated how many in how many wars throughout history. You let it all go and refused to give Muslims proper representation in a single India. Never mind``.

Let us look at this from a purely Muslim point of view and that 1 specific point which changed everything. Khilafat.

Fact was Indian Muslims were excercised about the same and had been so since the 1890`s when Turkey started losing its Western Empire. Wrong as the whole movement was the Hindus did support the Muslims and what did they get in return you can read history and find out. I mean 5/6 of the sepoys who fought were Hindus they yet returned Bahadur Shah to the throne and what did the fanatical Muslims of Delhi do they slaughtered cows and declared a Jihad against hindus killed a 1,000 or so before being subdued.

No Zee we had no illusions of our strenght or desire to subjugate the Muslims even Veer Savarkar and Godse wrote articles in Veer`s paper asking the Muslims to be true Kshatriya`s and have the first allegiance to the motherland. (Savarkar was willing to accept the fact that muslims could be at par with Hindus even while having a foreign Punyabhu i.e. holy land provided they declared India as their Pitrbhu i.e. fatherland but here meaning motherland). What was clear was that the Muslims feared that the Hindus would do to them what they had been doing to hindus for centuries.

As far as proper representation goes boss this was a canard started by the UP and Delhi Muslims who being 15% of the population had 60% of the jobs and hated the fact that this ratio had come down from 90% at the times of the mughals. Muslims who actually needed proper representation were in the Muslim majority areas where till the UP and Delhi muslims started the canard of Islam in danger there were no major communal probelms.

Further you have written ``We are the foot soldiers. We fight till death against injustice without giving it another thought. That`s our faith. You are the pragmatic pacifist intellectuals/businessmen, who would avoid conflict and wait endlessly to achieve the same goal whether its forthcoming or not. That`s your ideology. The Chinese are somewhere in-between who will wait only till its time but with a boiling lava of violence they have contained since centuries. That`s their ideology. But it will erupt one time or another. So far the foot-soldiers are in the line of fire.`` I shall split this and reply

``We are the foot soldiers. We fight till death against injustice without giving it another thought. That`s our faith.`` Yes Zee that`s your ``faith` and what you have become foot soldiers of mindless bedouinism. Read the origins of Islam and you will realise what an arab con job has been sold to you. Insteat of Chandradev you worship Ubal the moon god of the pagan arabs and kiss a Shivling in Kaaba as whatever. This mindless cult of mendacity and murder you follow has reduced you to it and yes brother you do not give it another thought because to follow this cult of wickedness you have to stop thinking and submit just submit and submit to the so called will of a mass murdere rapist peadophile. Cure yourself of the delusion that you fight for justice or against injustice. You fight those who are not of your religion and when you run out of these you fight your own when they are not of your sect, tribe, clan etc. Millions of non muslims protested the invasion of Iraq. I am yet to to see any muslims marching to protest the killing of black sudanese by Arabs (BTW half of those killed are muslims). Those who practice `Takiyah` as an art and condemn non co-religionists can hardly claim to be followers/fighters/defenders of Justice.

``You are the pragmatic pacifist intellectuals/businessmen, who would avoid conflict and wait endlessly to achieve the same goal whether its forthcoming or not. That`s your ideology. The Chinese are somewhere in-between who will wait only till its time but with a boiling lava of violence they have contained since centuries. That`s their ideology. But it will erupt one time or another. So far the foot-soldiers are in the line of fire.`` Actually what should I reply to on this. We are constrained by fighting by the spirit of Dhimmitude and constant betrayal we face by our co religionists, if it were mere indifference one could live with that but we have to live with treason so thats that.

And no Zee that is why we cannot be brothers roots cant be replaced but when branches of a new fruit true is grafted on an old one it bears a fruit that is different from the mother tree and while they take nutrition from the same mother (tree) they are different fruit and so not brothers.

My father belonged to a similar school of thought that we are closer to Pakis than SOuth East or West Indians till I successfully disabused him of such notions. How is a pretty long process but your next statement qualifies why this is true ``In this battle of immensely conflicting regional ideologies, surely there are immense commonalities as well. So where do these converge? There is a certain point where they do meet and that is a realization that the East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet. It is us foot soldiers who are fighting and dying to make that distinction clear.

You must realize who is the real enemy. Its not Islam otherwise you would be Muslim after a thousand years of Muslim rule. All your ire is the Aurangzeb period. What about before?

Any realization other than above in the context of Muslim/Hindu relations is just bickering and positioning for short-term gains. The real truth lies in the regional alignments which will carry this region to great heights. I have no doubts about that.``

Before qualifying the same let me reply to this comment ``You must realize who is the real enemy. Its not Islam otherwise you would be Muslim after a thousand years of Muslim rule. All your ire is the Aurangzeb period. What about before? `` Please got to www.bharatvani.org to find out why the Caravan of Islam sank in Gangaji. Alternatively read what is written by Mulim histo and hagio graphers and you will realise that if India had just one guy like Pope Pius (crusade walla) and one more like Charles Martel (Poitiers wala) we would have exterminated the scourge of Islam from Earth (and as a bonus Xtianity too).

Coming back to the other point whcih proves our dissimilarity and the fact that we cannot be brothers till there is Islam you have written ``In this battle of immensely conflicting regional ideologies, surely there are immense commonalities as well. So where do these converge? There is a certain point where they do meet and that is a realization that the East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet. It is us foot soldiers who are fighting and dying to make that distinction clear.`` The last part first `foot soldiers fighting`. `foot soldiers` of whom? `fighting` what. Answer Islam, Kufr.

Now how shall our twain meet. The problem has started from Israel`s creation and led to a mindless ameicanism. Has America not helped Muslims starting from Suez, going till Bosnia America has helped the Muslims, but no America is not Muslim so it may do help us in a 100 ways but because it supports Israel it must be fought. Why cant Israel exist because on a land where Muslim`s have gained ascendancy no non-muslim state should be allowed. Ok what about North Cyprus then. Also how has this fight become your fight? Answer I am am a muslim they are muslims so Ummah and the rest blah blah blah falls in place.

See were other countries not colonised and were the Arabs not master colonisers. Mauritania`s ruling class is the fair Arabs the intermediate class of supervisors is the brown offspring of the arabs and negroes and the servants are the negroes themselves (which is in fact an improvement itll 1994 they were slaves and now these arabs strut around and say that the human religion of Muhammed made them manusmit these slaves though god or rather Allah forbid one of them forget their station or not consider it a privilege to serve the whites). These were random thoughts let me sum them up for you.

East is East and west is west and the twain will not meet you are invoking this because of your limited gains in the west and the fact that large majority of Europeans will not accept being Dhimmis from Muslims and god forbid they lose their cool and regain their maradngi that they lost post WWII you will become no better than what the Parsis were reduced to in the 12th century. Since we pragmatist Businessmen/Intellectuals Indians/Chinese have not raised the fight to the level of the Europeans what better way to deal with us than invoking the twain of East and West and get allies. And precisely because in this fighting the ratio of your lossess is 1:200 this WHEN the ration of your barbarity to that of the West is 1000:1 you are at least seeing the writing on the wall.

For too long have we ex Dhimmis tolerated your rubish and praised this murderous cult of yours like the religion of equality, the religion of peace now at least some of us are starting the fight back as well. And our fight is not with weapons for we mean to kill Islam and not Muslims (though we realise that some Muslims have to be dealt with in the way the prophet dealt with non muslims) and the biggest vicitms of Islam are Muslims. Again to diverge our (to mean me and people like me) problem is that when a Muslim clearly of Indian origin not some wannabe Syed or Shaikh is killed in a communal riot it is a loss to us almost as much as the loss of a Hindu. Which is why we hate the RSS (we actually call it the RICS Rashtriya Islami Christi Sangathan) for it panders to extreme muslim sentiments by praising muhammed but retaliates against an ordinary muslim in a riot and DOES NOTHING TO FIGHT THIS DEVILLRY AT AN INTELLECTUAL LEVEL i.e. to show the world what islam and xtianity truly stand for. We were recently beaten up by RSS people when we tried to burn Guruji`s Posters (Guruji a.k.a Madhav Sadashiv Golwalkar the second Sarsanghchalak of the RSS and the man responsible for this anti intellectuallism).

So ex-brother I take your challenge we will become brothers again, we will destroy Islam and not its adherents.

Regards
Sanatani (Your Brother to be)

P.S. Read the conduct of Bhagwan Ram after defeating the man who kidnapped his wife and compare it that with that of that dirtbag bedouin whom you called khatam-ul-nabi you have nothing to lose but Islam and return to the way of your forefathers.

#57 by sanatani

...Sadly Your Ex Brother Sanatani ...

Sanatani, you`re still my brother, and always shall be. Roots can`t be replaced by new ones though identities may diverge, as strange and incongruous as it may seem.

What you say, even though extreme, rings true. Just as what I say, even though extreme, is true as well.

You are right when you say ``What separates you and me is Islam.`` That`s correct. And when you say ``Then Zeemax we would have sat down like Brothers and discussed the merits and demerits of the Visheshadvaita school with the Charvakh.``, it is true and the best course to follow. But you succumbed to the illusion of a delusional power of numerical superiority in 1940s, without realizing who Muslims are, and their potential, and that how many Muslims defeated how many in how many wars throughout history. You let it all go and refused to give Muslims proper representation in a single India. Never mind.

We are the foot soldiers. We fight till death against injustice without giving it another thought. That`s our faith. You are the pragmatic pacifist intellectuals/businessmen, who would avoid conflict and wait endlessly to achieve the same goal whether its forthcoming or not. That`s your ideology. The Chinese are somewhere in-between who will wait only till its time but with a boiling lava of violence they have contained since centuries. That`s their ideology. But it will erupt one time or another. So far the foot-soldiers are in the line of fire.

In this battle of immensely conflicting regional ideologies, surely there are immense commonalities as well. So where do these converge? There is a certain point where they do meet and that is a realization that the East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet. It is us foot soldiers who are fighting and dying to make that distinction clear.

You must realize who is the real enemy. Its not Islam otherwise you would be Muslim after a thousand years of Muslim rule. All your ire is the Aurangzeb period. What about before?

Any realization other than above in the context of Muslim/Hindu relations is just bickering and positioning for short-term gains. The real truth lies in the regional alignments which will carry this region to great heights. I have no doubts about that.

Aligning with Muslims is not dhimmitude, as many of our Hindu interactors try to assert to detract many wiser people in an attempt to preempt. But it is destiny. It must be.

Your brother,

Zeemax.

Re: # 79 Blow J. Kumar says.

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I, of course, ``love`` you like nobody else ever can!

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Sure you would. Must be that extra tip you got. Obviously you did a good job Mr. Blow. You are truly keeping Biharis traditions for serving the rest of South Asia. Good job, good job!

I almost forgot this.

Dear Taiko,

Go SCREW yourself!!!

After you are done screwing whatever crappy little is left to screw of your crappy little dung-hole that you call your country and the rest of the world fondly remembers as shitt-whole!

I love ya!
BJK

My dear taiko,

Gutless creeps like you – who have spent a lifetime (if one can call you a life form) licking the underside of those khaki boots and singing khaki praises are the reason Pakistan is over such a barrel now – and stinks to every other country in the world!

The gutless Pakistani morons here who make a feeble attempt to grant you legitimacy – they are simply opportunistic chickens and NOTHING that they do here – or can do here could change the unpleasant cesspool of your reality!

You stink my dear – and because of worms like you, your whole country stinks.

I, of course, ``love`` you like nobody else ever can!

Re:#77 by saminasha2 on December 2, 2006 2:25pm PT

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btw, when I write ``contemporary historians``, I mean the people of these countries-the women intellectuals who are well respected in the us

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Samina Sahiba, contemporary or old, the bottom line is simple. A leftie commie historian will always present Gamal Nasir and Mossadegh as their avatars.

However for the free market proponents, these commies are nothing but petty plunderers of their national wealth.

Mossadegh didn`t last that long, but Gamal Nasir and his $tupid nationalization in Egypt wrecked havoc with its economy.

Right now, Egypt is the most corrupt, poverty stricken, and religiously myopic country in the Muslim world. Off course Iran comes a close second thanks to its leftie Mullahs.

So please keep these contemporary historians close to your heart and see both Egypt and Iran go down the gutter.

Re: # 74

btw, when I write ``contemporary historians``, I mean the people of these countries-the women intellectuals who are well respected in the us

Re: # 75

and that representation of these issues punches a whole in your credibility....

#74 by saminasha2 on December 2, 2006 1:22pm PT

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Nasser and Mossadegh are respected by contemporary historians for attempting to achieve self autonomy of eqypt and iran`s natural resources. why is this a bad thing?

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Autonomy my foot!

Both of them for commies to the core. Their whole shebang was to become the lackeys of Soviets, and in the process loot and plunder their own people. This is what commies do. They are the true leaches.

Nasser and Mossadegh are respected by contemporary historians for attempting to achieve self autonomy of eqypt and iran`s natural resources. why is this a bad thing?

Re: # 72 Blow J Kumar sez

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Watch the worst perpetrators of the crime preach against its evils!

What a buffoon!

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What an apt name Blow J. Kumar when he expounds on Hindi Bindi tolerance that is so prevalent in Gujarat`s concentration camps, the burned out homes of Ahmadabad, and raped Gujarati minority women.

Good, very Good B. --J.

#70

[It should not be butchered in the name of religion as this act of butchery does more harm than good.]

Watch the worst perpetrators of the crime preach against its evils!

What a buffoon!

#69 Stuka

My estimation of the Bhutto was pretty low – now it is even lower!