Indian Filmmaker Plucks Musical Strings in Pakistan

I was deliriously fulgurated to go through the above article i.e.INDIAN FILMMAKER PLUCS MUSICAL STRINGS IN PAKISTAN by Sadia Fatima. I don't know about her personal knowledge about music but it seems that she has got full command about the classical music. Her article is based on thought provoking perception about the pace of classical music in my country i.e.Pakistan. My all kudos to her for this marvelous and schlaraly article. I will be pleased to interact with her if so she pleases. I am a writer inenglish,urdu and punjabi languages. I feel not to write much about myself in this column.
m.s.aarpan

#51 by harimau on December 8, 2006 5:39pm PT

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Your problem, taikonaut, is that your folks had bought into a load of bull from some mullah and are are now classified as lower than the Untouchables.

Whereas brahmins were Prime Ministers to Islamic sultans, you guys certainly were put to good use by the same sultans.

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I guess you are ignoring the situation on the ground. In modern day Pakistan, Muslims had (for centuries) all the land free and clear of any raja or maharaja. OTOH Brahmin ``prime minister`` used to survive as paltry banyas who used to count coins and run the retail shops.

Prime ministers! hahahah.

Ref taikonaut #50

[And that`s why mlecchas (whatever that means) rule Brahmanistic @r$$. Poor Brahmins were more than happy to bend over and be ``dewan`` (courtyard) so that every mleccha walks on Brahmin behind.]

Your problem, taikonaut, is that your folks had bought into a load of bull from some mullah and are are now classified as lower than the Untouchables.

Whereas brahmins were Prime Ministers to Islamic sultans, you guys certainly were put to good use by the same sultans. Some of you -- fortunately for you, it is not some of your ancestors otherwise you wouldn`t be here -- were neutered and put to use guarding the harem.

Yeah, I got my dog neutered too. So that ought to tell you where exactly you guys rank in the sultan`s opinion. You of course already know my opinion of you. And of course we all know the sultans` opinions about brahmins because we guys got hired as Prime Ministers and Advisers to the King.

Re: # 49 hariom

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Read the real history of Hindustan. You will understand why brahmins are the superior race and why you are all mlecchas.

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And that`s why mlecchas (whatever that means) rule Brahmanistic @r$$. Poor Brahmins were more than happy to bend over and be ``dewan`` (courtyard) so that every mleccha walks on Brahmin behind.

Ref taikonaut #48

[Your statements are like the supporters of Apartheid`s Botha telling Mandela that we have not only put you all blacks as the lowest of the low. We still have further lowest blacks who are destined to be slaves.

Man! no wonder Brahministic @r$$ has been ruled by every Tom, Harry, and even that Dick.]

You know, you guys have been harping about how you all escaped the caste system by ``voluntarily embracing`` Islam. The only embrace I have read about is where the victim is embraced prior to being bent over and buggered.

On the other hand, brahmins escaped this treatment at the hands of the Islamist thugs. Tipu Sultan`s Dewan was a brahmin.

Read the real history of Hindustan. You will understand why brahmins are the superior race and why you are all mlecchas.

#47 by harimau on December 6, 2006 5:06pm PT

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We Brahmins turned certain local inhabitants into Shudras, others into Untouchables and then folks like you into an even lower category called ``mlecchha``.

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Sadly this shows the true mentality of Brahministic mentality.

Your statements are like the supporters of Apartheid`s Botha telling Mandela that we have not only put you all blacks as the lowest of the low. We still have further lowest blacks who are destined to be slaves.

Man! no wonder Brahministic @r$$ has been ruled by every Tom, Harry, and even that Dick.

Ref taikonaut #46

[Oh Well Hindooi fundoois are quick to forget their past. That`s the quality Brahmins used to turn every local inhabitant a Shudra.]

This is as untrue as it gets.

We Brahmins turned certain local inhabitants into Shudras, others into Untouchables and then folks like you into an even lower category called ``mlecchha``.

Serves you right, in my opinion!

#45 by harimau on December 5, 2006 5:49pm PT

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Ref taikonaut #36

[....And yes Pakistanis should support the ``right to return`` for Sikhs and Punjabi Hindus.]

They already do! They do support, and in fact force, the return to Hindus and Sikhs ro Islam.

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Yeap. Hindooi fundoois bombed Golden Temple, and killed 1000s of Sikhs in 84. Mind you there was no partition excuse this time.

Oh Well Hindooi fundoois are quick to forget their past. That`s the quality Brahmins used to turn every local inhabitant a Shudra.

Ref taikonaut #36

[....And yes Pakistanis should support the ``right to return`` for Sikhs and Punjabi Hindus.]

They already do! They do support, and in fact force, the return to Hindus and Sikhs ro Islam.

Re: # 43
No question, they are really super. Incidentally have you heard Nathu Khan on the Sarangi. It`s pity fewer and fewer people are playing that instrument.

Here is a link , Nathu Khan playing Narayani
http://www.sawf.org/audio/narayani/nathukhan_narayani.ram

Re: # 41 and #42

Yes Warrier Ji, but I would take Shakti without the Jazz bit. I have seen Vikku perform with Zakir Ji a few times at the Symphony Space, and it just magical.

Jang Ji… nothing is better than that.

Re: # 39
I`m not indulging in semantics. Classical music even in the Western sense never meant old. In the western idiom it meant the style of music from Haydn to Beethoven. You may think it is old because some old fogey`s perform it, but it is not. It`s a living breathing tradition with changes taking place even today.

Raaga Malhar performed by X orchestra is only as much Malhar as some string band trying to play Eine Kliene Nachtmusik.

I`m not arguing about the complexity of a raaga vis a vis a simple scale. But again far too many pop/film musicians play just the scale or the notes on which a raag(a is necessary because in Sanskrit the ending consonant is duly stressed often, not just by poor Southies) is based.

Cheers

#40

Kulleee you need some Shakti I think. -)

#40 kuharee yar we had this college mess-workers party every saturday night with bhang pakhawaj, harmonium and ghungrus singing bhajans..we had this classmate from banares whos dad taught tabals join them..major blast.

Re: # 38

Speaking of which Jang ji, my Guruji tells me that laborers in his ancestral pind in the UP after a hard day’s work hire a Pakhawaj guy to perform, they get drunk and dance along..

Din din tete tete gheghe tete kate gadi dha kate dha ni dha

Have you ever seen the trio Zakir ji, Vinyakram on Ghatam… plus a violinist… it send shivers up your spine… a superb mixture of Carnatic and Hindustani.

Re: # 37 by swarrier on December 5, 2006 7:31am PT

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[Look DM why would someone argue on semantics? Classical Music of South Asia is unique in one particular way, i,e. it provides many templates (or Raags).]]]

I don`t think this is quite right. By the same token any music that is composed in a major or minor key in the West should be called classical music. After all scales and chord progressions are templates too aren`t they.

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SWarrier Ji, you too are now indulging in semantics. Classical simply means ancient, old etc. South Asian classical composers put together templates that are more complex than simply scales and key progression.

Raag Malhar is a template that vocalists, or orchestras can use to develop a performance. These Raags (for Southies it is Raagas) or templates are not associated with any composer.

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#38 Jang
i am intrigued by the mega-farmer support. can you expand on how exactly this support works?

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It is simple!

Poor people have pool their money on Mohallah level, pay the musicians, and listen to music.
Rich people pay money from their own pocket, invite musicians, and listen to music.

Both of these forms ``patronize`` artists aka musicians.

#36 by taikonaut

i am intrigued by the mega-farmer support. can you expand on how exactly this support works? i can tell you how the middle class supports music in india. a locality (muhalla, housing society or cultural etc) organizes a concert. invites the musicians and pays them fees to perform classical music such as khayals, drupad etc. the artists are invited to us and other places also. due to this, many artitst have 200 dates a year when they are performing.

IMO classical music allows improvisation in an extremely controlled manner, in a guru-shishya-gharana tradition. Real improvisation is a big step taken only after steeping in the tradition for years.

and no classical musician calls it ``south-asian`` classical, its hindustani or carnatic.

Re: # 36
[Look DM why would someone argue on semantics? Classical Music of South Asia is unique in one particular way, i,e. it provides many templates (or Raags). A composer then picks one of these templates that closely depicts the mood of a ``performance``. This performance may or may not accompany a vocalist. Just listen to Rag Hans Dhuni with a master of sitar, and marvel at the beauty and simplicity of the template. Still it is a template that a master can use to do whatever he wants to do with it. ]

I don`t think this is quite right. By the same token any music that is composed in a major or minor key in the West should be called classical music. After all scales and chord progressions are templates too aren`t they.

You can have a composition based on a raaga, it doesn`t make it classical. This is especially true of most Indian film or Indian orchestral music where the tempered scale is used.

Interesting spelling of Raaga Hamsadhwani . I`ve never seen it written so.

Re: # 35 #35 by dost-mittar on December 5, 2006 6:14am PT

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I disgree only re. your definition of ``classical``. But you are not alone, so many people, even Indians, believe that ghazals and qawaalis are classical music

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Look DM why would someone argue on semantics? Classical Music of South Asia is unique in one particular way, i,e. it provides many templates (or Raags). A composer then picks one of these templates that closely depicts the mood of a ``performance``. This performance may or may not accompany a vocalist. Just listen to Rag Hans Dhuni with a master of sitar, and marvel at the beauty and simplicity of the template. Still it is a template that a master can use to do whatever he wants to do with it.

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Don`t you ever say that about the land of my birth [Pakistan] and my ancestors. I did not leave that country by choice and would have been happily living there if allowed to.

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Very noble thoughts. I wish all Punjabi Hindus follow this shiny example of yours. Punjabi Hindus can earn a lot of good will by supporting E. Punjabi Muslims who were kicked out of their ancestral lands. And yes Pakistanis should support the ``right to return`` for Sikhs and Punjabi Hindus.

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And while I do like classical music, I do not always fully understand it. On the other hand, I not only love Abida Parveen and Sabri Brothers

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Go listen to a master living in ``Androon Shehr`` (downtown) Lahore. He or she will make sure to lead you through the finer aspects of classical music. However you must remember that classical South Asian music provides templates. And don`t get stuck with the templates because they are mere templates.

Any patron (farmer or not) helps classical music template learning or development even while funding ghazal singers. As the support of those who use these templates to produce ``neem-classical`` (neo-classic), or ``pop`` (popular) music ultimately supports classical music.

taikenout#31:

``Classical music was also supported by the farmers, and Sufis of modern day Pakistan.``

I disgree only re. your definition of ``classical``. But you are not alone, so many people, even Indians, believe that ghazals and qawaalis are classical music or that Mohammad Rafi was a classical singer.

``It is clear that deep down Hindis can`t accept anything good about Pakistan, and instead quickly start issuing fatwas?``

Don`t you ever say that about the land of my birth and my ancestors. I did not leave that country by choice and would have been happily living there if allowed to.

And while I do like classical music, I do not always fully understand it. On the other hand, I not only love Abida Parveen and Sabri Brothers but fully understand them, too.

Folks, thanks for all the interesting discussion this review has lead to. I would reccommend that instead of arguing over these matters, it would be better to watch the film itself. Although the film may be depicting the sad reality of the decline of this music, but on the whole it is more optimistic than a sob story. It actually raises a lot of questions that people even in India (in classical music cirlces) are not asking yet. I think it is a real tribute to the struggle of Pakistani artists in the midst of all the odds. I would recommend the Chowk readers to even buy the DVD of the film from www.ektara.org, since the filmmaker claims that he is raising some funds to share with the deserving musicians who participated in the film. The film was recently screened at Lahore`s Rafi Peer Festival of World.
cheers

At least in South India, there seems to be a conscious effort on the part of parents to send their kids to trained musicians to learn classical music. It is not unusual to find children go to such ``music classes`` which are normally held 2-3 days in a week. The sad thing is that only Brahmin parents seem to be interested.

Re: # 21 Naqshabandi

It takes too long to attach --i`ve been trying for last 7 minutes and it has not attached a single song. If i zip the file it becomes too big to attach.

Other suggestions? Have you tried searching on the net? just go for ``Mehdi Hasan MP3`` or ``Mehdi Hasan songs download`` or ``mehdi hasan`` or ``mehdi hasan free download``. Google/yahoo/msn are good places to surf.


I have the following:

Ab Ke Hum Bichde .mp3
Duniya Kisi Ke Pyar Main.mp3
Humain Koi Gum Nahi.mp3
Mohabbat Karne Wale.mp3
Rangish Hi Sahi.mp3
Zindagi Main To Sabhi.mp3

RB

Re: # 30 DM Ji sez

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taikenout#16:

Kyon bhai itnaa ghusaa kis liye? Please tell me if I have said anything wrong and I will take it back.

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DM ji, are you Zeena?

My #16 was in response to # 2 Zeena when she issued a fatwa

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Pakistan is way backward in it`s music.

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Why did you say something so cruel. I am heart broken now. :(


you also say

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As regards big feudals, as far as I know, they were mostly fond of Mujras and not of classical music but I am prepared to change my opinion if you provide some evidence for what you said.

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Feudals is not a good representation of Mega-farmers. These are the guys who use their wealth to patronize all kind of artists and dancers. Mujra on its good side is dance, and on the bad side Mujra artists were involved in sex trade. However Mujra-bazi was also done by Nawwabs and Rajas. Why do you pick on Mega-farmers only?

Classical music was also supported by the farmers, and Sufis of modern day Pakistan.

It is clear that deep down Hindis can`t accept anything good about Pakistan, and instead quickly start issuing fatwas?

Regards

taikenout#16:

Kyon bhai itnaa ghusaa kis liye? Please tell me if I have said anything wrong and I will take it back. Please read what kulharee, a Pakistani interested in classical music has to say.

As regards big feudals, as far as I know, they were mostly fond of Mujras and not of classical music but I am prepared to change my opinion if you provide some evidence for what you said.

Incidentally, there is still a fair number of Pakistanis who love classical music. In our group of Hindustani Sangeet Mandal in Ottawa, we have 4-5 Pakistanis who are fairly regular in our concerts. Then again, we may have an unrepresentative sample in Ottawa. As Naqshbandi said in #22, high culture by definition is followed by only a few. Moreover, it is also generally subsidised either by the state or rich individuals/corporations even in rich countries of Europe and North America.

Ranjit#19:

I am not sure if the kothas ever patronised classical music, they did use saarangi and tabla. Semi-classical thumris maybe but not hardcore classical. I believe that before the partition, most of the patronage was provided by the royal courts, going back all the way to Akbar and Taan Sen.

When the Nawabs and Princes disappeared, these musicians were in a sense rendered orphans. In India, fortunately, the slack was picked up by the state and industrialists. As jang pointed out, All India Radio broadcast a lot of classical music even when it was being criticised as elitist; indeed it started catering to masses only when the masses migrated to Radio Ceylon`s commercial services. Alos, a tradition of appreciating classical music, especially instrumental music, developed among the upper middle class and the elite who switched their loyalty from Western music to Indian classical (on a side note, Western classical music has declined in patronage. If you see some old Hindi movies, the upper class families were frequently shown to have a piano in the living room, this seldom happens now).

ranjit, All-india radio played a crucial part in supporting gharana musicians during declining years of support from Rajas. AIR provided funds, formats (grading of artists etc) and stage. lack of such a crucial patronage prolly cause classical music decline in pakistan. in addition, in hindu middle and higher class families, learning of classical music during the 20-th-century was considered an important part of upbringing. marriagable girls were expected to sing a song or play an instrument for guests bringing rishtas. many hindu rajas like the king of baroda had big-shot musicians on the payroll and had it as a part of school curriculum run by the princely state. so there was a larger spread base among hindus. amongst muslim musicians OTOH the practice of classical mostly was restricted to gharanas imparting training to shagirds. so in pakistani child it would be abnormal to go for a classical music class, whereas for indian child its normal

and all of the hindi film musicians and singers (like the saregama contestants ets) spend a lot of formative years training classical.

Re: # 23 ranjit to taiko nucase
[...When the feudals get out of their vehicles, the peasants have to lie face down on the ground....]

Is that true Mr Taiko Nutcase?... Do you guys lie face down on ground when your Wadera, I mean, Mega Agriculturalist passes by?... I also heard the Mega Agriculturalist can pick any of your women at any time for his pleasure... No wonder you guys are so proud of your ``Mega Agriculturalists``... they really treat you guys very well... :)

+++

Stupid pakis... instead of eliminating this scourge of feudalism, they are actually proud of it and flaunting it as ``Mega Agriculturalist``... I mean, jeez...

Stuka,
Thanks, I must look up this instrument. 9 strings adds a lot of complexity and it may not survive and may just become a curiosity.

DM
Many upper-castes have been involved with classical music in India.

Classical music as with any other art that requires some effort to understand , requires a core base of enthusiasts and to some extent a patronage that can be extended by the state, big business houses, wealthy institutions (religious or otherwise) to survive. Perhaps that was not present in Pakistan in addition to the religious issues.

The average person hears but rarely listens. It takes time to understand the complexities of classical music and if people do not have the time or inclination they will never listen especially if not exposed to it from a fairly young age.

Lastly technology has also played a part in the decline. Less than a century ago if a person was interested in music he/she had to learn to play an instrument or learn to sing. You created the music yourself and it made you come closer to it and appreciate it more. Today you have music on demand at the touch of button on your CD player, computer etc. Some of us have become passive listeners who demand to be entertained without wanting to put any effort into understanding the source.

In India luckily there are a lot of people who are interested in classical music and keeping it alive. I see it thriving today despite a few muttered protests from purists on how things are not what they used to be. But they have been as much a part of the scene for all time rejecting any advance or change.

Re: # 24

I meant to thank Sadia Fatima.

Thank you Khayal Darpan, for writing about such an important issue and an area very close to my heart, as well as to many other concerned (and Shoukeen Mizaj) Pakistanis.

I have to see the documentary before I comment on this. The Hindustani died in Pakistan long ago. Hindustani and Carnatic are very much alive and kicking in India. Not only has the Hindustani survived in India, but the Indian musicians have brought it to the world stage. At any given time, there are 2 or 3 Hindustani hard core (Khiyal and above) concerts are going on in cities like London, New York, Berlin. Hindustani will never die. Carnatic on the other hand has incorporated a lot of western classical instruments (particularly in the string family) into their music. Carnatic is said to be the world’s richest and oldest musical traditions. The Muslim influence on the Hindustani is indisputable.

Naqshay (#8)… Sitar (as the name implies, Seh-Taar “three-strings”) was “Modified” into a 19 string by Hazrat Amir Khusro in the courts of Khilji. (He didn’t invent it, he improved upon the Persian Seh-Taar). He sure contributed a great deal to the north Indian music.

People, people, Ghazal is OK, but please don’t call it “classical”. Michael Jackson is more classical than Ghazal singers. OK, ok, Thumri is semi-classical, but it is quite a bit watered down version of classical standards. It’s like Sesame Street of classical music.

Re:taikonaut#20

[...Funny how so many Biharis and UPites love to cast stones at Pakistan regardless of the thread or topic of discussion. .....]

DM i.e. Dost-Mittar is a pucca punjabi whose family migrated from Pakistan in 1947. Just read some of his articles/postings on chowk.

By the way, why do you always make racist comments against Biharis and Upites? I thought Islam was against racism. Is this due to the Punjabi-Mohajir feud in your country? Just for the record, I have a sindhi background, before you start calling me a Bihari.

[..Off course the poverty stricken areas of Bihar and UP can never even imagine how these Mega-farmers enjoy their lives.....]

The so called ``mega-farmers`` are feudal landlords and waderas who rule their peasants with an iron fist. You should be ashamed of this feudal, parasitic class in Pakistan that crushes all democratic spirit in your country and keeps the majority of the people enslaved as laborers and serfs. Read Tehmina Durrani`s book ``My Feudal Lord`` about Ghulam Mustafa Khar and you will get a glimpse of the perverted lifestyles of the feudals in Pakistan. My paki friends have told me about the horrible conditions of the peasants who live like slaves to the whims and fancies of the feudals. When the feudals get out of their vehicles, the peasants have to lie face down on the ground. So please spare us about their ``lifestyles``. We Indians kicked out feudalism right after 1947, while you still have it in 2006.

doesn`t it boil down to the fact that classical music is High Culture and, as in any society, High Culture is followed only by the educated elite (as opposed to the mass following of Popular (pop) culture?)

Re: # 18

Hi Razia!
Thanks. Just email them to me at asifjuk@gmail.com

Thanks

Asif :-)

#11 by dost-mittar on December 3, 2006 11:27am PT

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And you are only partly right about the fate of classical music in India. Classical music in India, like anywhere else, is not for the masses. It was always less popular than other forms of music, such as film, folk music or bhajans.

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Funny how so many Biharis and UPites love to cast stones at Pakistan regardless of the thread or topic of discussion.

Classical music in Pakistan has survived nay thrived in Pakistan, thanks to the patronage by the secular elite mostly the Mega-Farmers.

On the other hand the same farmers treat Mullah with disdain. That is the reason Mullahs especially JI has seldom won a seat in the elite farming areas of Pakistan.

Many Biharis fail to understand that Pakistani elite supported classical music for the music itself and not as some religious duty. This fact in itself should be appreciated rather than derided.

Off course the poverty stricken areas of Bihar and UP can never even imagine how these Mega-farmers enjoy their lives.

So keep shoveling $hite. Keep on shoveling.

Re:DM#11

[..Also, while classical music was earlier associated with low castes/classes (so-called mirasis), it is now pursued by the children of elite. People in the upper crust would gladly send therir children to learn sitar or tabla......]

DM, classical music entered the mass market in India due to a couple of scholars - Vishnu Digambar Paluskar and Bhatkhande - both of whom made a major effort around early 1900s to move Classical Music away from the kothas/courts to the common folks. These two scholars compiled entire repository of Indian classical music compositions, prepared notations, published books and opened schools of music where ordinary people could go and learn music. The famous Gandharva Mahavidyalaya in Delhi and Bombay (it used to be in Lahore as well till 1947) is one such institution dedicated to the spread of classical music to the ordinary folks. The SPIC-MACAY movement in educational institutions like colleges and universities has also popularized classical music.

It was primarily a private and/or volunteer movement that has morphed classical music patronage in India. The critical change brought about was to take classical music away from the stranglehold of a few families belonging to certain gharanas and make it available for mass consumption in terms of learning and appreciation. The government contribution has been marginal. Of course, the government did not create any roadblocks unlike in Pakistan.

Among Indo/Pak muslims, classical music has always been limited to a set of musician families belonging to the gharanas. They teach only to their own e.g. the Salamat-Nazakat Ali family in Pakistan only teaches their own family members and relatives. If an outsider wants to learn, they have to go through hell like living a life of a servant in the home of the ustad, before he can learn anything. As a result, classical music knowledge has become hightly limited and no one knows enough to appreciate it. The families do this with the purpose of limiting competition but they inadvertently kill the market for their skills. The lack of state patronage also hurts, but primarily it is the fault of the musical families in Pakistan who refuse to make it a mass-movement.

Hey Naqshabandi,
i noticed you were interested in re-collecting some of M Hasan`s songs. I`ve got a cuple of MP3s if you are still interested. Lemme know how to get them to you :)

RB

Swarrier: I don`t think I have the expertise to tell you much by way of value added knowledge. I only came across the instrument when I visited Sanjan Nagar institute in Lahore.

Actually I came across their site:

http://www.sanjannagar.org/contact.htm

If I remember correctly, I met Sadia and Iram, both of whom are listed on the page. You can email them and ask. Yasser (Manto) knows them well and could be of additional help.

Re: # 2 by Zeena on December 1, 2006 9:07pm PT

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Pakistan is way backward in it`s music.

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Zeena Ji! Are there any basis for your fatwa?

So we don`t make as many bollywood style gaudy copies of Western musicians. That doesn`t qualify for these pompous rants.

Think a little before issuing fatwas in future. Otherwise we have to award you a title of Mullahni, and JI will give you free life time membership of their burq-posh groups.

bulleya:

You are off-topic. It is not my contention that Indians love Pakistani entertainment product and Pakistanis dont, so you are arguing against a case I did not make.

The topic is the fate of classical music in Pakistan where it had a very strong tradition and musicians. And no, I am not talking about one musician, that was the positive note in that now at least classical music has been reintroduced in official Pakistani media, albeit with possible censorship. I was talking about an official decision taken soon after Pakistan was created to ban a particular type of music from its radio because it smacked of another religion.

And it has nothing to do with Pakistani people. My reference was to the action taken by the Pakistani state institution. Of course, Pakistani people do not care about any reference to hindu gods and deities in hindi movies nor do they have any say in what goes into them since they do not contribute a penny to India while watching smuggled videos. As you said, they watch the product that they like. We are talking about institutions, not people.

intersting but unsubstantial note on the sate of classicl music in Pakistan.

Sadia it would be much better if you had provided more ifo on the movie set itself.

dost-mittar#: .......in the end it is economics......there are hindi movies that have flooded the pakistani markets, which not only refer to bhagwan, but have the hero, heroine acting as various religious figures, or performing religious ceremonies, etc........

.......its actually neither here nor there......economics and entertainment is what people look for.........barring a few tv dramas, i have rarely met anyone from india, who knew much more about pakistani music and entertainment.......on the other hand, pakistanis could go on and on about indian movies and music.........i can make a bet, i know ten times more about indian entertainment than you know about pakistani entertainment......why is that?.........

.......part of it is probably because pakistanis are significantly more receptive to things coming in from india, than vice-versa.........part of it is the quality of the the product........very little, if any of it, is bhagwan or rehman..........unless, of course, that is all one attempts to see in everything........

.......could one make an argument, then, that the reason indians have very little access to pakistan entertainment is because it does not mention bhagwan enough........or that the reason, very few hindi movies are made about indian muslims or have muslims as main characters, because it would require mentioning rehman..........

........or is it simply an industry catering to the economical realities of what makes money......in my opinion the later.........if i had 100 ruppees i would buy a cassette of junoon or of shaan (or jagjit or ghulam ali)..........but i doubt i would ever spend it on bare ghulam ali or hamid salamat ali...........since most people would do the same, bare ghulam ali and others will soon go out of business in pakistan.........they can sing all they want about rehman or bhagwan, it won`t make a difference, because that doesn`t have much to do with it...........however, if ashwariya rai is singing about bhagwan or rehman, she will do booming business in pakistan, as she does..........

.......simple economics..........(of course one can narrow in on the fact that 40 years ago, radio pakistan had a singer who changed one word in song........but that, in my opinion, pales in comparison to the crores and crores of ruppees of business, all other types of entertainment has, and is, doing........)

further to #11

When I said 4-5 classical concerts a year, I was only talking about Hindustani classical music; in addition, South Indian Cultural Association of Ottawa brings in another 4-5 carnatic musicians from India each year.

bulleya#11:

I fully agree with you that it is not right to bring religion into every discussion but in this particular case, it is quite valid. Being a bit older than you, I do remember the time when Pakistan radio banned classical music explicitly on the grounds of its Hindu origin, hence the validity of religion in this discussion.

As I said, the good news is that things are opening up in Pakistan. A few years ago when in Bangladesh, I watched a PTV program where they had a segment on classical music. However, the influence of Mullah police was still evident. A singer was singing a famous light classical piece, ``Sur se jisko pyaar naheen hai, vo moorakh insaan naheen hai``. In the song, there is a verse that ends with ``vo bhagwaan naheen hai``, whether by choice or censorship, the singer changed the words to ``vo rehmaan nahin hai``.

And you are only partly right about the fate of classical music in India. Classical music in India, like anywhere else, is not for the masses. It was always less popular than other forms of music, such as film, folk music or bhajans. But the other part of the story is that classical music has a much larger patronage in India now than ever before. It is now possible for classical musicians to earn their living without going into other professions. Also, while classical music was earlier associated with low castes/classes (so-called mirasis), it is now pursued by the children of elite. People in the upper crust would gladly send therir children to learn sitar or tabla. Even in a small city like Ottawa, we have at least 4-5 concerts every year by visitng classical musicians and there are two music schools of classical music in the city.

And it is even considered snobbish in India to take interest in classical music. Music concerts by well-known artists are always sold-out, even in a cultural ghetto like Toronto.

.....i don`t think the decline of classical music in pakistan has anything to do with it`s indian-ness..........or rejection of things indians, since 47...........quite the contrary.........there is oreders of magnitude more indian music in pakistan today, then there ever was historically..........also there is far far more indian entertainment, in general, in pakistan, than vice-versa........this is neither good nor bad.......just a fact.

...india is just getting introduced to junoon etc.......pakistan has been introduced to kishore, lata, amitabh etc for decades...........morever, the flood of indian movies (thus providing visuals of all things hindu) is far more, ``hindu`` than any, ``rejection`` of classical music..............why would someone be willing to watch all things hindu, including quite a few which are anti-pakistan and not purse it in audio.........

.........the decline of classical music - hindu or otherwise - is simple economics........it doesn`t sell..........hardly anyone buys classical cassettes or cds..........no one attends concerts in classical music in pakistan.......the latest ashwariy rai movie will sell thousands of time more videos than the latest classical cd from any classical gharana in pakistan........

........a good example is the most famous classical gharana of pakistan........the family of amanat ali........his brother (hamid?) and son (asad?) are two of the most accomplished classical singers in pakistan...........however, his younger son, who is also fully classically trained, has formed a pop band where he sings pop songs in a uniquely classical style........

.......needless to say the youngest son is making many time his elder brother and uncles.......and personally speaking, i find the younger son`s music far more entertaining than anything the rest of the family sings..........

..........i assume the same is true in india also.......sonu nigam and alka yagnak and hamesh rashmiya probably make even more money than the younger amanat brother.........and definitely more than any classical singer in india.........the former can sell out a ten thousand seat auditorium in toronto........while when the indian classical singers visit, then play in high school auditoriums.......

....... thus its kind of pointless to bring decline of something, just because it is, ``hindu`` into every discussion and mention it is a victory of islamists.............basically it is economics and technology.......the availability of videos.......the invention of vcr...........satellite dishes.....syntehsizers.........etc......pretty difficult for a classical musician to compete against that.........

Naqsh:

Yes, Mehdi Hassan does sing some of his ghazals in classical style, which is not the same thing as classical music; just as Naushad and many other film musicians composed their music based on classical raagas but very few of their songs, e.g., Bade Ghulam in Mughale Aazam and Amir Khan in Baiju Bawra would be considered as classical music.

You are right about Amir Khurau. Muslim contributions to Indian classical music is immense, this is why it was sad when the karta-dhartas of Pakistan decided that it was Hindu music.

The decline of classical music in Pakistan is a shame. dost-mittar, Mehdi Hassan sings many of his ghazals in classical ragas--indeed that is his trademark.

Qawwalis do have their origin in North Indian, Hindustani, classical music. It is alleged that Hazrat Amir Khusraw invented the sitar and also qawwali as a means of proselytisation.
He is also credited with inventing khyal by combining Indian and Persian musical modes.

The state of classical music in Pakistan should be considered as that country`s greatest achievement, if you are an islamist, or its greatest failure, if you are against islamists.

Like everything else in Pakistan, the trend started at the very beginning. Radio Lahore stopped playing Indian classical music as it was alleged to have its origins in the Hindu religion. This happened at a time when the great leader of Pakistan was telling Hindus that Pakistan was as much as their country as Muslims`. The result was that the great son of Punjab, Bade Ghulam Ali, was practically starving and decided to move to India.

It is a tragedy that ``classical`` in Pakistan has come to mean ghazals and qawwalis. [I love ghazals and qawwalis and have nothing against them as such, but they are not classical music, except when sung by someone like Begum Akhtar in light classical forms like thumri and dadra].

But let me end with a hopeful note. As I have said before, Musharraf is the first Pakistani leader, including Jinnah, who has actively promoted secular culture in Pakistan. In recent years, classical musicians from India have been welcomed in Pakistan and classical concerts have started to take place again.

This is for Stuka
Long ago you wrote about the Veena Sagar on one of your articles. Care to elucidate how it is different from a standard musical instrument? If you seperate the resonating chamber from the string board how do you transmit the sound?

How does it matter whose cultural property music is? It belongs to the people who love music and the people who create it. Others need not worry about it.

Good article. There should be more articles of this kind on Chowk.
Mohammad Gill

Fareeda Khannum of Pakistan recently gave a concert of ghazals in Chennai to a huge audience at the Music Academy. The article in the local newspaper mentioned how she had to abandon a career in classical music for lack of good teachers and audience and had to settle for ghazal singing.

What a pity. This nauseating culture of Islamism nearly destroyed musical tradition and culture of Indian Classical Music in Pakistan. Hope it will notbecome extinct. Music can build brotherhood between peoples.
Kamath

Pakistan is way backward in it`s music.

not seen...........cannot comment on the documentry...........

classical musicians in Pakistan had to jam with the rock bands in order to survive...........now we see the ``confusion`` that goes in the name of fusion (sufi!!) bands with sons of classical musicians acting like rock stars and singing those incorrect taans and ragas with the bass guitars.........

now this desperation is creeping in the indian classical music to some extent.


Lahol!!